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[l/m 12/11/2007] summary of past topics Distilled non-wisdom (5/28) XYZ

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Panel 5

See reader questions & answers on this topic! - Help others by sharing your knowledge
A summary of topics discussed in this news group since inception.
Most have opinions pro and con, we do not attempt to summarize these here.

Topics: (many topics discussed in other groups instead e.g., r.b.p.)

See Special section on panel 12 (netiquette) about pyramid scheme
(Dave Rhodes) and Craig Shergold post card posts.

	Hunting (rec.hunting [moderated] better)
Domestic animals: dogs, horses (rec.equestrian better), cows, sheep, 
'Ecology' and environment (some talk.environment better)
	Wild animals
		'Lethal' wildlife, bears, etc.  (Also see guns, environment)
		general questions about wildlife, snakes, 
	Plants botany
		Spring flowers
		(forests big in ca|sci|talk.environment)
Equipment, munge, gear, junk, rangoon, stuff
	(largely seekable in books or vendor literature, at stores, mail order)
	Stoves (MSR [XKG vs. Whisperlite] vs. Peak 1 vs. alcohol vs....)
	Water filters		Gortex
	Tents			Sleeping bags (cleaning)
	Packs			Bivy sacks
	Altimeters		Flares
	Radios/phones/GPS	Special accounts
	REI the company (#s)	repairs
	Radioactivity of some latern mantles
	Recipes			Dehydration
	Memorable meals
	MREs (try a surplus store, in the Yellow Pages[tm])
		[Yes, yes, we know, Meal Rejected by Ethiopians]
Climbing (rec.climbing better)
	Protection		ethics
	style			chalk
	Testing, physics, etc.	Ratings, names of climbs,
	'Lycra and wool'
Sport climbing (rec.climbing better)
	climbing walls
	To build a fire, Quest for fire
	General survival, military survival
	Limited trip reports
Environmental issues
	Giardia/Lyme Disease/Poison Oak		Land Ethics
	Man's place in				Mountain bikes
	4WD					Technology
	Weather (day, night, lightning)		Natl. Parks/Forests
	Definitions of wilderness/mountains/etc.History
	Altitude and altitude sickness
	What goes on/ happens/ to do in evenings
No, giardia, mosquitos, poison oak, do not confur immunity in small

	Firearms.  You may carry firearms for protection.  Be familiar with
	the weapon and its potential.  Shooting, other than for protection
	is prohibited in the Park.
	Subsistence Use
	Local native and non-native residents use park and preserve resources
	to support their subsistence way of life.  ...
	--Gates of the Arctic National Park

   "In general terms, you may not carry a firearm within
   the boundaries of Denali National Park. If you
   possess a firearm it cannot be carried on your person
   or in a backpack, etc. All firearms must be stored
   unloaded, broken down and placed out of sight, such
   as in the trunk of your vehicle. If contacted by a
   park ranger you must immediately declare that you
   have a firearm. Firearms are NOT needed for
   protection from bears! Secure storage for firearms
   MAY be available while you are in the park. Contact
   any park ranger for details or if you have questions
   concerning firearms.

   For questions regarding the use of firearms in
   Preserve lands and new park additions please contact
   a park ranger.

   Generally these lands are open to sport and/or
   subsistence hunting."

Music, singing, sound, reading ('off-hour' entertainment), riddles
	Equipment of 
	Stories, epics, accidents
	First Aid -- Tourniquets
Employment (life style misc.rural)
	Computer and non-computer related
	Volunteer work (trail building/hut maintenance)
Ski mountaineering and other winter activities (rec.skiing better)
General mountain trivia
	Cavers are better than climbers
	St. Edward Abbey
Boats ( better)
Caving (caving mailing list, see panel 26 and panel 1)

Minorities (Black, Asian, Native American)
Women (fewer) and the outdoors
Sex in the outdoors
Beginners: at anything (Tenderfeet)
Learning: NOLS, OB
	Waviers, disclaimers, liability
Is Alaska like Northern Exposure? (NO)
If topics do not appear, it may be that they have moved to other newsgroups.
Photography: taking pictures (personal or commercial [e.g., Ansel Adams,
Galen Rowell, Eliott Porter, et al.]), equipment, reporting, etc.
From Pebble Beach:
	No depiction by photography, artist rendering or any other means of
	any property owned by Pebble Beach Company may be used for commercial
	purposes or published without the prior written consent of the
	Company.  Requests should be directed the the Company's Director of
	Public Relations.

Other signs:
From Area 51:
** is emphasis for red rather than black lettering

*WARNING* (in red large print)
Restricted Area
It is unlawful to enter this area without
permission from the Installation Commander.
Sec. 21, Internal Security Act of 1950; U.S.C. 797
Whle on this Installation all personnel and
the property under their control are subject
to search.

*in red: Use of deadly force authorized. *

small print:
Supercedes AF Form 2527 Nov. 81
AFVA 207-1
10 October 1986

From Monument Valley:

  ATTENTION!  au del de cella limite vous sortez du domaine skiable balise
  du Brevent. Devant vous commence un itineraire de montagne non balise,
  celci-ci conformement a l'arrete municipal du 12-1-1983 ne compred pas
  de service d'ouverture ni de fermeture.  De plus il est tres "avalancheux".
  Si vous l'empruntez, c'est a vas riske et perils, sous votre propre
  WARNING!  after this point you leave the marked piste of Brevent.
  In front of you is an off piste mountain track.  States that the
  ski patrol does not open or close this track.  It is very avalanche prone.
  If you decide to ski this track, you do so at your own risque and peril
  and your own responsibility.
  ACHTUNG!  hier verlassen Sie das gesicherte Skigebiet.  Alpine Gefahren.
  Der Bedarf fur dieses Symbol wurde bei der Sitzung von Schrocksandel und
  Scheiber angegeben.

  ARRETE MUNICIPAL No 102.92 DU 30 JUN 1992
  DECRETO MUNICIPALE No 102.92 DEL 30/06/1992

General "News" from other media
	Sensation, records, happening, events

The different groups reading r.b tend to fall thusly:
Beginners (novices) and infrequents tend to ask obvious material
(hardware) and concrete questions: equipment to buy, fads & fashion, etc.
Most likely to faux pas.  Possibly follows Boehm/Brooks curves about
hardware and software.

Intermediates: More experience and concern with where to go,
technique, practice, less concrete ideas, less tangible tastes (developing).
Starting to understand limits.

More advanced: questions ethics, styles, philosophy, least tangible of all.
Opinions change and flucutate.  Shortest description.

On anon posts: is an anonymous remailer.  If you don't like the posts
coming from there, writing "" and complain.


He went away from the basement of Building 14 that day,
and left this note in his cubicle, on top of his computer terminal:
"I'm going to a commune in Vermont and will deal
with no unit of time shorter than a season."
	--The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder, 1981


'Understand the procedure, now?
Just stop a few of their machines and radios and telephones and lawnmowers.
Throw them into darkness for a few hours, and then, sit back and watch 
the pattern.'

"And this pattern is always the same?"

'With few variations.
They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find, and it's themselves.
All we need do is sit back and watch.'

"And I take it this place, Maple Street, is not unique."

'By no means, their world is full of Maple streets.
And we will go from one to the other and let them destroy themselves.
One to the other.
One to the other.
One to the other.'

The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions 
and fallout.  There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, 
prejudices -- to be found in the minds of men.  For the record, prejudices 
can kill and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search 
for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own -- for the children and the
children yet unborn.  And the pity of it is that these things cannot be
confined to the Twilight Zone.

TABLE OF CONTENTS of this chain:

5/ Summary of past topics	<* THIS PANEL *>
6/ Non-wisdom: fire-arms topic circular discussion
7/ Phone / address lists
8/ Fletcher's Law of Inverse Appreciation / Rachel Carson / Foreman and Hayduke
9/ Water Filter wisdom
10/ Volunteer Work
11/ Snake bite
12/ Netiquette
13/ Questions on conditions and travel
14/ Dedication to Aldo Leopold
15/ Leopold's lot.
16/ Morbid backcountry/memorial
17/ Information about bears
18/ Poison ivy, frequently ask, under question
19/ Lyme disease, frequently ask, under question
20/ "Telling questions" backcountry Turing test (under construction)
21/ AMS
22/ Babies and Kids
23/ A bit of song (like camp songs)
24/ What is natural?
25/ A romantic notion of high-tech employment
26/ Other news groups of related interest, networking
27/ Films/cinema references
28/ References (written)
2/ Ethics
3/ Learning I
4/ learning II (lists, "Ten Essentials," Chouinard comments)

Gear section.

To summarize past discussions on this matter (Dave Mann).
Goretex not waterproof enough?
Is so!  Is not! Is so!  Is not! ... ad nauseum ...
Goretex breathable?
Is so!  Is not! Is so!  Is not! ... ad nauseum ...


Velcro: George de Mestral (from cockleburs)

PostIts(tm) (3M) [Art Fry and Spencer Silver]

Oh, boy.  This is a religious issue, and I've been flamed before for even
sticking a toe in it.  To be as neutral as possible:

Bringing a dog in the backcountry is illegal in many National Parks,
and is illegal unless the dog is on a leash at all times in many
wilderness areas.  The Colorado Mountain Club doesn't permit dogs on its
trips, and I believe this is true for most such organizations.

- most dogs will harass wildlife to some degree, and even the best-behaved
dog will scare the hell out of most wild critters, a stress they don't need
on top of the problems they already have from too many people and too little

- most (non-dog-bringing) people really don't like having other people's dogs
around while they're in the backcountry.  At best, as a friend once said,
"bringing a dog is like bringing a brass band." They disturb the peace of
the backcountry, and reduce the chances of seeing any wildlife to near zero.

- In heavily used areas, the dog shit is a problem because of worries about
spreading giardia and other nasties. Not to mention what it does to the trails.

All that said, _lots_ of people do it, and usually nothing happens to them
aside from a few nasty looks. Your Milage May Vary.

			Chuck Smythe

	Bring the dog.

	Leave the dog at home.

	Dogs have the same right to be in the backcountry as people.

	Dogs scare off wildlife, and cause undue stress to fragile species.

	Dogs protect you against wild animals at night.

	Dogs attract bears like honey, and lead the bears straight to you.

	Dogs don't tear up the environment any more than people/horses.

	Dogs shit in the woods, and carry diseases.

	Dogs can be quiet and well behaved.

	Dogs intrude upon the privacy of other backcountry users.



Date: Wed, 4 Mar 92 20:54:36 -0500
From: (Tony Wesley)
Subject: Re: Another Dog Bite/Call Cops


In rec.backcountry you write:

>I grabbed two of the dog articles and will edit them into panel 5 (previous
>topics).  (Chuck and Brian's articles)

May I offer another contribution to the panel?  I wrote the following and
uploaded it to CompuServe's OUTDOOR forum about 3-4 years ago.
                       Take the Dog?

    Many of us like to get away for one or two weeks in the summer, and
camp in a state or national park.  For those of us with dogs, this can
create a dilemma.  What do we do with Fido?  

    There are three choices.  One, you can have Fido boarded while you
are away.  You can leave your pet with a friend or relative. Or thirdly,
you can take your dog with you.  Which is best for you and your dog?

    Boarding houses are usually well run.  Many of the people in this
business are there because they like animals.  But, to be on the safe
side, you should have dealt with this house before or known someone who
has.  A good animal boarding house will exercise your dog.  Your dog
should get attention.  It should be clean and keep your dog from being
exposed to diseased animals.  If you chose your place carefully, you'll
be relaxed on your vacation knowing that Fido is safe and happy on his

    Family and friends are great -- if they and your dog get along.  If
you have a friend who is also a dog owner, perhaps you can work out an
arrangement to "doggy sit" for each other.  But make sure that they know
your dog, that they have the time to take care of your pet.  Remember
that your pet is going to be upset that you are gone.  If your pet's
temporary caretaker is gone too long, your pet may develop poor toilet
habits or start chewing things.

    So, why not take the dog with you?  If you and your dog are ready
for it, this can be the best experience of all.  My dog, Pepper, has
seen more of Michigan than most of its residents.  Pepper has been on
many car camping trips, a couple canoe journeys, as well as backpacking
and several extended day hikes. 

    Before you take the dog, ask yourself some questions.  Does your dog
bark a lot?  Is it high strung?  If you are camping in a fairly crowded
park, as many are on holidays, you may have neighboring campers only 20
or 30 feet away.  It's their vacation too.  If your dog is not
well-mannered, it is best to leave it behind.

    Will you be doing things that require you to leave the dog behind?
Many people have different ideas on how to camp.  Do you plan on going
into town for meals and spending the evening at the local watering hole? 
Perhaps you want to take a boat cruise or a train ride.  You probably
cannot take your dog there.

     Make sure your dog is allowed where you're going.  For instance,
dogs are not allowed in the backpacking country of Pictured Rocks
National Park.  I believe this is true for the National Parks in
general.  Avoid the tragedy of traveling with your pet for hundreds of
miles and finding out you can't stay where you planned. 

    Many dogs can stay in the car for an hour or so without incident. 
If you do, be sure that the car isn't too hot.  Direct sunlight can heat
the interior of car to over 120 degrees.  Don't leave your dog back at
the campsite.  A barking dog tied to a picnic table for hours is sure to
invite a lynching party for its owners and deservedly so.  Pepper stays
in the car if we go into town, normally a rare occurrence when we camp. 
We make sure the windows are partially lowered.  The car is parked in
the shade if possible, a sun shield is placed in the windshield.

    Is there enough room for your pet?  With today's smaller cars,
taking the dog may pose yet another problem.  Pepper is a large dog, a
mixed breed Bouvier/German Shepherd/Labrador/??? weighing in at eighty
pounds.  She requires most of the back seat of our Escort.  Toss a
cooler in the back seat with Pepper, add camping gear in the back and
the car gets pretty crowded.  One of our most unforgettable moments
occurred when Pepper, crowded by my wife who was getting something out
of the cooler, crawled into the front seat.  Two adults and a large dog
in the front seat of an Escort is an interesting packaging problem, to
say the least.  Getting Pepper turned around and back where she belonged
rivaled the best slap-stick comedy I've ever seen.  

    So, before deciding to take your dog on vacation, make sure
everything can fit!  You may be surprised how fast you car or truck
fills up.  A practice load of your vehicle in advance is probably a good
idea if you haven't used it previously for camping.

    Have you ever traveled with your dog?  The beginning of a 10-hour
trip to the desolate netherlands is a bad place to find out that Fido
gets car sick.  

    When sleeping in a tent, you'll be in close confines with your pet.
If Fido is loaded with fleas, they'll be visiting your sleeping bag.  A
good idea is to give your dog a flea bath before you go, and then give
him one when you get back.  Your dog should have its shots, and be
protected against rabies and heartworm.  If you're not sure, check with
your veterinarian before you go.  

     And let's not forget flying insects.  While the dog's fur will
protect it against mosquitoes, black flies are a different story.  You
can spray your dog with insect repellent as long as you keep it out of
Fido's face.  The ears are a particularly vulnerable spot.  To apply it
there, spray it on your hands and rub it on your dog's ears.  Some
people use a bandanna to help keep the flies away. 

    Plan on keeping Fido under control.  Other people may not enjoy your
dog as much as you do.  Depending on how well trained your dog is, this
may or may not mean keeping it tied up all the time.  Courtesy for your
fellow vacationers when mean a more enjoyable trip for all concerned.
And don't forget to pack the dog's food, dog dishes and a leash.  And
toss in a blanket for Fido's bed.  If you and your dog are ready, you'll
have a wonderful trip!

If you have comments or question, please contact me via the OUTDOOR
forum or by electronic mail.  Thanks.  Tony Wesley 72770,2053.
>This is the Usenet: do you expect anything other than gross generalizations?

Usually not.  But sometimes there are a few sterling exceptions.
Speaking of contributions, if you e-mail to me a copy of the panel
about backcountry fatalities (where my e-mail is tacked on the back),
I'd like to clean that up a bit and add some other numbers.  Bee
strings.  Lightning strikes.  I'll shoot it back your way and see if the
mods meet with your approval, O wise one.
 Tony Wesley
Are you thinking of telephones and managers and where you got to be at noon?

The original simpler paragraph reads (Voge):

	"Ducks" made up of two or three stones stacked vertically have been
	place by various person to mark routes on peaks and along
	knapsack routes.  These are sometimes useful, but should be viewed
	with SKEPTICISM.  Many ducks have little significance.  Some may
	led to poorer routes.  The climber who encounters ducks down not
	usually know what the builder of the duck had in mind, and 
	it is better for a climber to judge the situation for himself
	than to blindly follow a series of ducks.
	Sometimes a duck is built to mark the right (or the wrong) chute
	for descent from a ridge.  It is the feeling of the editor that
	climbers who know their business will rarely need a duck to find a
	return route. If a duck is built for such a purpose it is usually
	best to destroy it on return.  The building of ducks, except in a
	few exceptional places, should probably be discouraged.
Ref: Climbers Guides to the High Sierra by the late Hervey Voge

What arrogance the duck builder has!  Does he really believe that he
has found the *only* possible route?  Does he believe that he has checked
out all alternate routes?  Does he think we can't find our own way?
	--Steve Roper, a Climbers Guide to the High Sierra, 1976

... it is better for a climber to judge the situation for himself than
to follow blidnly a series of ducks."
	--Hervy Voge, a Climbers Guide to the High Sierra

What constitutes a 'mountain?'

Oh, about a 3,000 ft. rise above surrounding territory.  Numerous exceptions

Article 23613 of rec.backcountry:
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: wheels in wilderness
Date: 7 Aug 92 10:16:38 MDT

To answer the question about using a one wheeled device to "carry" a
pack into wilderness areas I did a bit of reading.

The Wilderness Act:

..., There shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles,
motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other
form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within
such area.

CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Rev. July 1988

The following are prohibited in a National Forest Wilderness::

(a) Possessing or using a motor vehicle, motorboat or motorized
    equipment ...

(b) Possessing or using a hang glider or bicycle.

The following are prohibited in a National Forest Primitive Area::

(b) Possessing or using a motor or motorized equipment, except small
    battery powered hand held devices, such as cameras, shavers,
    flashlights, and Geiger-counters.

Now from the Forest Service Manual Rev. 4/86

Title 2320.5 Definitions

3. Mechanical Transport.  Any contrivance for moving people or
   material in or over land, water, or air, having moving parts, that
   provides a mechanical advantage to the user, and that is powered by
   a living or nonliving power source.  This includes, but is not
   limited to, sailboats, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game
   carriers, carts, and wagons.  It does not include wheelchairs when
   used as necessary medical applicances.

So overall I would bow out and say one wheeled devices are illegal.
And it seems that bikes have always been illegal.  But that is the
price we pay sometimes for wilderness.  Buy a goat and have it carry
your pack, they are much easier to transport, manage, and are easier
on the land than llamas, or horses. 

The final bit reading I did goes back cairns ;-).

From the CRFs pertaining to all National Forest Land (including wilderness).

The following are prohibited:

(a) Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind road, trail,
    structure, fence, enclosure, ... , or other improvement on
    National Forest system land without a special-use authorization,
    contract, or approved operating plan.

Well as I read it constructing/maintaining a cairn (which is part of a
trail) is illegal.  It does say anything about removing them ;-))).

Allen R. Sanderson
Salt Lake City, Oootah

Standard stove joke follows...
A guy goes parachuting for the first time and jumps out of the plane.
The chute fails to open. He recalls his instructors words and calmly
pulls the back-up rip cord. Again, no chute. Our hero is perplexed
but still calm. He has noticed another chap below him who is flying
up to meet him. As the pass the following conversation enues.
"Say, do you know anything about parachutes?"
"Sorry, I don't. Do *you* know anything about (fill in stove brand here)?"

Long standing stove debate and criticism stands on the MSR lines of stoves.
MSR stoves were designed for winter use in the Pacific Northwest to melt
snow of water.  Period.  The joke goes the MSR has two settings: off and high.
This is for melting snow or boiling water.  If you read the directions,
they recommend that if simmering is needed, use a can lid or similar flat
plate for indirect heating.  Sure, weighs more, but it's a survival stove.
Always use the right tool for the right purpose.  

Q: Should I sleep in my clothes or in the buff (in a sleeping bag)?

How should I know?
This is so dependent on your conditions, it is one of the ultimate
"your mileage may vary" questions.  It depends on the quality of your
sleeping bag, your physical condition: sleepy? tired? sleep deprived?
hungry?  expresso?  the environmental conditions (summer, winter).  Etc.
The thing to do isn't to ask here, it's to go out and do it.  And find out.
And then, don't report it here so that the next guy can figure out for
themselves.  Sleep one night in your back yard with your clothes on and
another night when them off.

AT == Appalachian Trail

Alcohol (and other compunds)

Drinking as a problem in the outdoors. Re: skiing under the influence,
shooting under the influence, and the general topic, etc.

Interestingly, the reader/poster attempts at logical discussion on this topic
aren't very logical.  They mostly center on vasodialation of veins/art.
and heat loss.  This completely misses the point.  The point tends to be
with loss of judgment.  There isn't a question here, the problem is well

Few argue that moderation and moderate drinking in comparatively safe
circumstances isn't an issue.  The problem is that safety margins are

                  Worldwide alternative names for fuels
Version  11.          
18th Jan 1994

Included: Turkey,
Updated: Holland, Germany, Switzerland (German speaking part),

The following list contains data for approx 30 countries. I would like
to expand the list to cover the rest of the  world. Hope you can help.
Info needed for Denmark, Ireland, Portugal and heaps of other places.......
What about South America, Asia , Africa and various ex USSR states.? 

Perhaps people could post translations of this article to non
English speaking networks ? 

column 1 =  Decane (mostly)......kerosene/diesel is a crude oil cut from oil
            refineries, boiling point range is app. 180 to 280 C.
            May have pink or blue colour added (U.K.). 
column 2 =  Pentane, Hexane....the same as for column 1, but a boiling point
            range of 25 to 200 C . 
            Slight yellow colour.
column 3 =  60% Hexane + 40% Heptane ? Usallly colourless ?
column 4 =  95% Ethanol + 5% Methanol approx. Usually has purple colour 
            and bad taste added. May also contain propanol.

Material Safety Data Sheet for Coleman fuel contains:

solvent naphtha (CAS #64742-89-8)                         45-50%
aliphatic petroleum distillates (CAS #64742-88-7)         45-50%
xylene (CAS #1330-20-7)                                     2%
toluene (CAS #108-88-3)                                     2%

             1             2             3                    4
U.S.A.  | kerosene   | Gasoline  |   White Gas       | Denatured Alcohol |
+       |            | "Gas"     |   Naptha          | Solvent Alcohol   |
Canada  |            |           |   Coleman Fuel    |                   |
        |            |           |   Blazo           |                   |
U.K.    | Paraffin   | Petrol    |  Coleman Fuel     | Methylated Spirit |
        |            |           |                   | "Meths"           |
France  | Petrole    |"sans plomb"| Petrol a Bruler  | Alcool a Bruler   |
        |            |           | Essence filtree   | Alcool Denature   |
        |            |           | Blanche sans plomb| Alcool Methylique |
        |            |           | Essence C         |                   |
        |            |           | "Essence a l'usage|                   |
        |            |           | domestique"       |                   |
Holland | Petroleum  | Benzine   | Wasbenzine        | Spiritus          |
        | Lampen-Olie| "Super"   | Coolman Fluel     | Brand Spiritus    |
        |            |"Loodvrij" |                   | alkahol           |
Germany | Petroleum  | Benzin    | Kocherbenzin      | Spiritus          |
        | Paraffinol |"Bleifrei" | Feuerzeug Benzin  | Brennspiritus     |
        |            |Auto-Benzin| Katalyt Benzin    |  Methyl Alkohol   |
        |            |           | Reinigungsbenzin  |                   |
Italy   |"Olio de    | Benzina   | ????????????      | Alcool Denaturo   |
        | Paraffina" |           |                   | "Spirito de       |
        |            |           |                   |        Brucaire"  |
Spain   | Parafina   | Gasolina  |                   | Alcohol Metilico  |
        | Petroleo   | sim plomo | Gasolina          | "Alcohol de       |
        |            |           | domestica         | quemar" (Metilico)|
Sweden  | Fotogen    | Bensin    | Vit Bensin        | T-Sprit           |
        |            |           | "teknisk bensin"  | Rod-Sprit         |
Australia| Kerosene  | Petrol    | Shellite          | methylated spirits|
         | "Kero"    |           | White gas         | "Meths" "Metho"   |
Finland | valopetroli |bensiini  | kevytbensiini     | denaturoitu sprii |
        |             |          |                   | Sinol(tm)         |
        |             |          |                   | Marinol(tm)       |
New     | Kerosene    | Petrol   | White Spirit      | Methylated Spirit |
Zealand |             |          | Shellite          |                   |
        |             |          | Callite           |                   |
        |             |          | Britolite         |                   |
        |             |          | Pegasol           |                   |
Iceland | ?????????   | ???????? |  Hreinsad Benzin  | ????????????      |
Czech     | Petrolej  |  Benzin  | Technicky benzin  | Denaturovany lih  |
Republic  |           |          |                  |Denaturovany alkohol|
Norway    | Parafin   | Bensin   | Renset bensin    | Rod-Sprit         |
ex-USSR | kerosene   | benzine   | ????????????????? | Methyl Alcohol    |
(Russia)|            |           |                   | ("metilovy spirt")|
Japan   | Toh-yu     | Gasoline  |   White Gas       | Nen-ryo yoh       |
        |            |           |   Coleman Fuel    |           Alcohol |
South   |  paraffin  |   petrol  |  Benzene         | Methylated Spirits |
Africa  |            |           |                  | "Meths"            |
+       |            |           |                  |                    |
Zimbabwe|            |           |                  |                    |
Switzerland| ???????  |"Bleifrei"| Reinbenzin        | Brennsprit        |
           |          |          | Wundbenzin        |                   |
Switzerland| Kerosen |"Bleifrei"| Reinbenzin        | Brennsprit         |
German sp. |         |          | Wundbenzin        |                    |
part       |         |          | Feuerzeug Benzin  |                    |
Holland   | Petroleum   | Benzine   |  Coleman fuel  | Spiritus          |
          | Lampen-Olie | Normaal 16|                | Brand Spiritus    |
India     | Kerosene    | Petrol    |  ??????????    | Meths ????        |
Bhutan    |             | (Gasoline)|                |                   |
Nepal     |             |           |                |                   |
Pakistan  |             |           |                |                   |
Austria   | ????????    |"Bleifrei" | ??????????     |  ??????????       |
Kenya     | Paraffin    |unleaded gas| ????????      |    ????????       |
          | kerosene    |            |               |                   |
Poland    | nafta       |"benzyna    |"benzyna       | Denaturat         |
          |             |bezolowiowa"| rektyfikowana"| alkohol metylowy  |
Turkey     | Gazyagi     | Benzin   | WhiteGas       | Ispirto           |

<> writes......
cat 1: Lampen-Olie... sometimes okay, often more like a vegetable oil.
,the 'non-smelling' version is almost always good: "reukloze lampen-olie"
 but contains a perfume which makes my stove (Whisper=Lite" clog up once in
 a while.
cat 2: "Super" = high octane, "Loodvrij"= unleaded.
cat 3: Wasbenzine, Coolman fluel, both well known

<> writes.......
The name 'coleman fuel' or 'coleman brandstof' is commonly used in Holland (or
The Netherlands). Stangely enough I can't recall a pure Dutch term (I don't
think there is one). It is sold in all outdoor equipment stores and in some
recreational stores ('kampeerwinkels').

<Noah_Coccaro@HAMPSTER.BOLTZ.CS.CMU.EDU> writes.......
I spent a year in Germany, and discovered that White Gas, or Coleman
fluid, as we call it here in USA is known as Reinigungsbenzin
(literally, cleaning gas). I purchased it in an Apotheque (Apothecary). 

<> writes.......
USA:      Poland:
Kerosene: hm, I am not sure, but try to ask for 'nafta', or express it
          slightly longer 'nafta do lamp naftowych', what means that you want
          something which is burned in the lamps... 
          There exists something called 'olej parafinowy' but I do not 
          know how it works. Better forget it. 
          'Nafta' burns easily, but if you think of the
          fluid of the Indian kerosene kind, which does not burn when
          you light a match and drop onto the fluid surface, I am wrong.

Gasoline: 'Benzyna', different octane numbers, leaded: the lower ones are 
          called 'niebieska benzyna' (blue gasoline), the better 
          'zolta benzyna' (yellow gasoline), 
          unleaded gasoline (probably the best when used in stoves)
          'benzyna bezolowiowa'. Fuel for diesel engines is oft called 
          'olej napedowy', or in slang 'diesel'.

White gas: 'benzyna rektyfikowana', 'benzyna oczyszczana', or when not 
          undestood, 'benzyna - rozpuszczalnik do farb i lakierow', 
          or 'benzyna do wywabiania plam', what means, that you want a fluid
          with which you may remove paint stains or solvent or thinner
          for some sort of paints. Beware of 'rozpuszczalnik do farb
          olejnych' - thinner for oil paints. Just explain somehow,
          that you need it for a stove ('benzynowa maszynka do gotowania',
          people use also the name of the German firm: 'juwel').

Denaturated Alcohol: 'Denaturat', 'alkohol metylowy', usually with 
          a beautiful skull and crossed bones symbol, and with horrible
          violet-colour addition. You may try also to burn 'spirytus',
          but this is 99 per cent pure alcohol for consumption and
          extremely expensive just to use as fuel...
Availability: 'benzyna rektyfikowana' in the shops with the chemical products
          what in Poland means, that there is sold everything from the soap 
          and washing powder up to thinners and paints: 'sklep chemiczny', 
          'farby i lakiery', etc. Some hardware shops probably too.
          There you may ask also for 'nafta', but try to explain, 
          what you want to do with it... ('do lampy naftowej').
          'Denaturat' could be also probably bought there, 
          but usually you may get it in the liquor shops (yes!) 'monopolowy' 
          or even in the shops with food or hardware (smaller towns, 
          'Benzyna' - fuel stations, but sometimes there are problems when 
          you come with a PLASTIC bottle, for just 1 liter... 
          They may say it is dangerous and would not sell you anything. 
          In such a case try to come with a metal bottle or bigger 
          (2-5 liter) can (pol.: 'kanister') or try to ask some driver 
          for help.
Burning qualities: The division of the qualities is clear - 'nafta' for
          lamps or stoves, where you may highly pressurize the fuel, 
          'denaturat' for the slightly old-fashioned alcohol stoves, where
          a surface of the liquid burns, 'benzyna rektyfikowana' is probably
          the best thing for stoves with limited or no possibility to
          pressurize the fuel (Whisperlite, Coleman). 'Benzyna' - if you
          have to use it, use the unleaded super ('bezolowiowa super'),
          when not available - down the octane scale. 'Diesel' the worst.

<> writes.......
"white spirits" and "white gas" are NOT the same.  White spirit
is some kind of cleaning fluid, IF you can get your stove to run on it it
will clog it up fairly quickly.
Most hardware stores sell "Shellite" in one litre plastic bottles Usually
made by "diggers." ( there are other brands but diggers is the most common)
Kerosene and Methylated spirits are usually available from supermarkets, as
well as hardware stores, again under the "diggers" brand.  In the Northern
Territory you will often not find Methylated spirits on display. Ask at the
check-out, or counter.  Also N.T. (and Qld. ??) Methylated Spirits is dyed
purple, this has no effect on the stove.

<> writes.......
Paraffin/Kerosene is available everywhere in Kenya, because its what they
use for lighting charcoal cooking fires. Having said that, there was a
desperate shortage of it everywhere in January/February when we were there,
and I suspect that this occurs unpredictably but perhaps quite frequently
from time to time.
Unleaded gas is pretty much unobtainable, but there must
be plenty of diesel about - we saw a tanker of it lying in the road spilling
the stuff everywhere while people variously stood about smoking and waving
traffic onto the edge of the road. 

<> writes.......
"Bleifrei" is particularly low octane - 91 or 92, so the stuff most people
use in cars is the higher octane stuff which isn't so nice in stoves.

<> writes.......
Unleaded petrol/gas is "Sin plomo"

<> writes........    
Petrol(Gasoline) is available at any Petrol Pump. Buy the higher grade if 
you are not sure. 
Kerosene is available at most roadside grocery shops or "ration" shops.
Methyl Alcohol-Most Drug Stores stock it. I have never used it in any 
stove so can't vouch for it.
White Gas-Could never find it.

<> writes........
Most supermarkets throughout the country sell kerosene and methanol. White
gas is available in chemists and pharmacies (Apotheke, Drogerie), but they
might insist on using special bulky glass bottles and will inform you about
the danger of the stuff you buy. You better tell them that you know what
you're doing and keep a funnel at hand to fill your own fuel bottles outside
the shop and return the bottles afterwards. Kerosene and methanol are sold
at about twice the price of normal, unleaded gas (bleifrei), whereas white
gas sells at about 4 times the price of unleaded.

<> writes.........
The most practical stoves for hiking/camping etc in most of Africa are 
simple "meths burners" - meths is relatively cheap and availability 
isn't usually a problem.  Meths stoves can be a bit difficult to get
going if it's cold but I've always managed - even in temperatures well
below freezing.
Paraffin is the most freely available fuel throughout southern Africa - but
I haven't found a small stove that really works with it.
Petrol throughout southern Africa is leaded - it can be used in an emergency
in pressurised stoves, but clogs up the jets really quickly.
White Spirit/Coleman Fuel is rarely available and then only in specialised
camping shops and is really expensive.  Benzene is around but you might
have to hunt a bit, it's quite expensive and sometimes has all sorts of
odd additives that stop it burning properly and clog up the jets.
South Africa (Lesotho and Swaziland)
<> writes.........
Paraffin is freely available at garages and plenty of other stores.
Petrol at garages.
Benzene is available at most hardware stores - beware of buying stuff called
benzine - it doesn't work.
Methylated Spirits is available at most stores except in the Cape Province
where you can only get it at chemists/pharmacies.

<> writes.........
Paraffin at most garages and stores.
Petrol at garages - not reccomended - I'm reluctant to run my car on this  
Benzene at hardware stores - may be difficult to find.
Meths at most hardware stores and chemists and in some other stores.

<> writes..........
Gasoline is available at gas station.  Usually they also have kerosene,
ie. Toh-yu.  "Toh" is pronounced like in "TOFU", and "yu" is like "you".
White Gas (most likely the one sold by Japan Coleman) is available at
bigger sports goods retailer.  Sometimes also available at hardware
store (again, bigger one).  Alcohol is available at drug store.  Ask
"Nen-ryo yoh" (the one as fuel), or you will get the one for
disinfection.  Pronounce something like "Al-coal" for "Alcohol".

<> writes........
Petrol could be obtained in fuel-station, if you find one. But usually 
there are very long lines for fuel and nobody is permitted to buy without 
order. TIP: ask driver of lorry/bus/taxi to sale (or just present) several 
liters. It usually works if you ask <2-3 liters. If you need more, repeat 
procedure. Taxi drivers usually sale benzine about 4-10 times more 
expensive than in fuel stations.

Don't try to find white gas. Nobody knows what it is. Learn to use petrol 
(if your stove isn't intended for petrol, be ready to clean it in the 
field). Trying to buy methyl alchohol (or cheap alchohol) isn't good idea.

Kerosene may be obtainable, but you can never predict it. Besides that some 
places don't sale goods to visitors. If so, you can usually ask somebody 
in the place to buy it for you.

The best obtainable fuel is a solar. Fuel stations don't sale it to 
travelers but most drivers of big lorries let you suck it. Bring house >2 m 
long (if you buy petrol from car/bus/... you need to suck it too!)

It is good idea to have somebody speaking Russian and preferably local 
language for negotiations. Foreign language and cash may attract crimes.

In general, you usually can find fuel in the initial point of your trip 
(you can't bring it in the plane) but it takes time. Consultations are highly 
recommended! In 1990 we had to delay start to 20-days mountain expedition 
in Tyan'-Shan' for 1 day because we couldn't obtain fuel!

<> writes.......
Coleman fuel is also available as ``Essence C''in French supermarkets 
and hardware shops. It's dirt cheap.
It worked fine in a Coleman Peak One and an MSR Whisperlite, with no 
fouling or peculiar smell from either or excessive filth from priming 
the MSR 
``Essence'', alone, is leaded 88 octane petrol.

<> writes.......
Petrol/Gasoline in France is called "Essence", but the relevant stuff
for stove fuel is unleaded, which is called "Sans plomb", or, more
easily, just comes out of the green nozzles at filling stations !

<> writes........
Parafin is available at most garages, at times under the name
"Fritids-parafin", or "Lampe-olje" (the latter is a more refined
version, doesn't smell).
Bensin is available at garages, and so is White Spirit. 
Rod-Sprit is available at stores selling paint etc. and also Liquour-shops!!!
(even if it is poisonous).

<> writes.....
The problem is the product called "White spirit" in Norwegian. It is a 
kerosene-like product, but more refined. It is intended for use as paint-
removing paint-stains etc. It is cleaner and lights easier than  kerosene, but
it is not at all comparable to petrol. I use it from time to time as a 
for kerosene in my stove, and it works great. 
On the other hand there is "Renset bensin", which is unleaded, highly refined
petrol. It is sold at pharmacies, and is intended for removing stains, and 
medical use. This product is very expensive, very explosive: not exactly the 
stove fuel.
But what confuses me is: this seems to be the product referred to for a lot of
other countries.
So what do you think? Are you looking for "White spirit" or "Renset bensin" ?

<> writes......
Actually you are looking for something inbetween, my Whispherlight get some
hick'up when using "White spirit" because the petroleum jet is to big for
using "White spirit" directly, the white gas jet is somewhat small, so you
don't get enough fuel through it. Another popular use of "White spirit" is
lighting a barbeque with it.
Never use "Renset  bensin" you just waist your money, use unleaded 98
octane fuel. Some gas station sell a gasoline typ with an additive based 
on potassium, this one should not be used in MSR's or Coleman's

<> writes........
While in Norway and Sweden recently I looked closely at "Renset bensin" and
"tecknisk bensin" for use in my SVEA stove.  The Norwegan product was clearly
marked as a mixture (60/40??) of Hexane and Heptane (with 1 or 2 percent of
other "-anes", like pentane).  The Swedish product was not labelled as to
contents.  I did purchase about 200 ml, good for about 1 hour cooking, but
now I don't recall from which country.  There was no problem since the stove
is designed to use explosive fuels.  Later I switched to Primus (TM) brand of
butane and a new stove because it was much more available and cheaper.

There are some interesting cultural differences with regard to the "explosive"

 >It is sold at pharmacies, and is intended for removing stains, and also
 >medical use. This product is very expensive, very explosive: not exactly
 >the ideal stove fuel.
This is quite true for Norway and Sweden.  If you go to a pharmacy and say
you are going to use this product in a stove they will just as likely call
"the men in white coats" to take you away.  But if you say you are going to
use it to clean wounds, this is OK.

Now, in the US if you went to a sports store and said you were going to use
Coleman Fuel (TM for extra pure white gasoline) - someone would say you were
very crazy.  

<> writes.......
True, the norwegian's get slighty crazy if they someone light
a stove fired by gasoline, normally they move about two meters away. 
They learn gasoline == dangerous,   kerosene == safe.
Further it is forbidden in Norway to sell stoves
fired by gasoline.

<> writes......
"Charcoal lighter" is a clean substitute (for Kerosene) and available
in any store.
Paraffin available from some garages. Coleman fuel only from some
camping stores.....If you ask for white spirit, you will be given
"Turpentine substitute" ie. paint thinner. Meths from hardware stores.

New Zealand
White spirit (4 brand names) available from garages. Probably safer to ask
for one of the brand names rather than just "white spirit".
Meths from hardware stores.

Alan Malkiel <> writes......
In Sweden, Vit Bensin is also sold as "teknisk bensin". (Technicial Gasoline)
(It is used as a cleaning solvent, sold in small bottles, and rather

------- writes.......
Valopetroli, bensiini and sprii are generic names, Sinol and
Marinol are brand names, but also in common use. writes........
White Gas (kevytbensiini) is apparently very hard to find (maybe
because nobody uses it here). According to manufacturer's info
Sinol(tm) is for unpressurized stoves (Trangia etc.) while Marinol(tm)
is for pressurized stoves (Optimus? never seen one), but in practice
they should be interchangeable.

Czech Republic
<> writes
Petrolej, Benzin, Technicky benzin, Denaturovany lih or Denaturovany alkohol
should be commonly available in 'Drogerie' (Drug store) or 'Barvy-Laky'
(Paints) stores.

Some notes on diesel fuel
<> writes.......
Don't forget that some multifuel stoves will run on Diesel, which has
the advantage of a very high calorific value per unit mass. In UK, this
is "Diesel" or "DERV", the latter for road vehicles specifically. Its
also possible to get hold of agricultural or "Red Diesel", which is
free of excise duty, but under no circumstances should you use it in
a road vehicle ! In Spain, diesel is "Gazoleo A".

I'm also interested in the availability of fuels in other countries.
Please post or email any suggestions. I'll post updates.

Mike Buckler

Subject: Re: transporting fuel

Doing so aboard an aircraft is a felony.

US HMR 175-6:

Federal law forbids the carriage of hazardous materials aboard aircraft
in your luggage or on your person.

A violation can result in penalties of up to $25,000 and five years
imprisonment. (49 U.S.C. 1809)

Hazardous materials include explosives, compressed gases, flammable
liquids and solids, oxidizers, poisons, corrosives, and radioactive

It's also dangerous as hell.  Be forewarned.

Hey let's vote (achieve consensus) on taking stove fuel in airliners.
# that is silly

Here is the text of the Federal (FAA) regulations governing taking empty
fuel bottles on Airplanes:
 175.26 Notification at air passenger facilities of hazardous
materials restrictions.
{New-93-9 Revised Sept. 27, 1993, effective Oct. 1, 1993.}
   (a) Each aircraft operator who engages in for-hire transportation
of passengers shall display notices of the requirements applicable to
the carriage of hazardous materials aboard aircraft, and the penalties
for failure to comply with those requirements. Each notice must be
legible, and be prominently displayed so that it can be seen by
passengers in locations where the aircraft operator issues tickets,
checks baggage, and maintains aircraft boarding areas.
{Beginning of old text revised Sept. 27, 1993}
175.25 Informing passengers about hazardous materials restrictions.
    (a) Each aircraft operator who engages in for hire transportation
of passengers shall display notices to passengers concerning the
requirements and penalties associated with the carriage of hazardous
materials aboard aircraft. Such a notice shall be prominently
displayed in each location at an airport where the aircraft operator
issues tickets, checks baggage, and maintains aircraft boarding areas.
      (1) Each notice must contain the following information:
   Federal law forbids the carriage of hazardous materials aboard
aircraft in your luggage or on your person.
   A violation can result in penalties of up to $25,000 and 5 years
imprisonment. (49 U.S.C. 1809)
   Hazardous materials include explosives, compressed gases, flammable
liquids and solids, oxidizers, poisons, corrosives and radioactive
   Examples: Paints, lighter fluid, fireworks, tear gases, oxygen
bottles, and radiopharmaceuticals.
   There are special exceptions for small quantities (up to 75 ounces
total) of medicinal and toilet articles carried in your luggage and
certain smoking materials carried on your person.
   For further information contact your airline representative.
      (2) The information contained in paragraph (a)(1) of this
section must be printed:
         (i) In legible English;
         (ii) In lettering of at least 1 cm (0.4 inch) in height for
the first three paragraphs and 6.0 mm (0.2 inch) in height for the
last three paragraphs; and
         (iii) On a background of contrasting color.
      (3) Size and color of the notice are optional. Additional
information, if not inconsistent with required information, may be
   [Amdt. 175-12, 45 FR 13091, Feb. 28, 1980, as amended by 175-23, 47
FR 43066, Sept. 30, 1982; Amdt. 175-47, 55 FR 52685, Dec. 21, 1990;
Amdt. 175-50, 58 FR 50505, Sept. 27, 1993]
 173.29 Empty packagings
   (a) General. Except as otherwise provided in this section, an empty
packaging containing only the residue of a hazardous material shall be
offered for transportation and transported in the same manner as when
it previously contained a greater quantity of that hazardous material.
   (b) Notwithstanding the requirements of paragraph (a) of this
section, an empty packaging is not subject to any other requirements
of this subchapter if it conforms to the following provisions:
      (1) Any hazardous material shipping name and identification
number markings, and any hazard warning labels or placards are
removed, obliterated, or securely covered in transportation. This
provision does not apply to transportation in a transport vehicle or a
freight container if the packaging is not visible during
transportation and the packaging is loaded by the shipper and unloaded
by the shipper or consignee;
      (2) The packaging -
         (i) Is unused;
         (ii) Is sufficiently cleaned of residue and purged of vapors
to remove any potential hazard;
         (iii) Is refilled with a material which is not hazardous to
such an extent that any residue remaining in the packaging no longer
poses a hazard; or
         (iv) Contains only the residue of -
            (A) An ORM-D material; or
            (B) A nonflammable gas with no subsidiary hazard at an
absolute pressure less than 276 kPa (40 psia); at 21 C (70 F); and

49 CFR Ch. I (12-31-91 Edition)
sect. 173.29 Empty Packagings.
  (a) General.  Except as otherwise provided in this section, an empty
packaging containing only the residue of a hazardous material shall be
offered for transportation and transported in the same manner as when it
previously contained a greater quantity of that hazardous material.
  (b) Notwithstanding the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section,
an empty packaging is not subject to any other requirements of this sub-
chapter if it conforms to the following provisions:
   (1) Any hazardous material shipping name and identification number
markings, and any hazard warning labels or placards are removed, obliter-
ated, or securely covered in transportation.  This provision does not
apply to transporation in a transport vehicle or a freight container if
the packaging is not visible during transportation and the packaging is
loaded and unloaded by the shipper or consignee;
   (2) The packaging--
    (i) Is unused;
    (ii) Is sufficiently cleaned of residue and purged of vapors to remove
any potential hazard;
    (iii) Is refilled with a material which is not hazardous to such an
extent that any residue remaining in the packaging no longer poses a
hazard; or
    (iv) Contains only the residue of -
     (A) An ORM-D material; or
     (B) A non-flammable gas with no subsidiary hazard at an absolute
pressure less than 276 kPa (40 psia); at 21 degrees C (70 degrees F); and
   (3) Any material contained in the packaging does not meet the defin-
ition in sect. 171.8 of this subchapter for either a hazardous substance
or a hazardous waste.
  (c)  A non-bulk packaging containing only the residue of a hazardous
material covered by Table 2 of sect. 172.504 of this subchapter --
   (1) Does not have to be included in determining the applicability of
the placarding requirements of subpart F of part 172 of this subchapter;
   (2) Is not subject to the shipping paper requirements of this subchap-
ter when collected and transported by a contract or private carrier for
reconditioning; remanufacture or reuse.
  (d)  Notwithstanding the stowage requirements in Column 10a of the 
sect. 172.101 Table for transportation by vessel, an empty drum or cy-
linder may be stowed on deck or under deck.
  (e) Specific provisions for describing an empty packaging on a shipping
paper appear in sect. 172.203(e) of this subchapter.
  (f) An empty tank car must conform to the placarding requirements spec-
ified in sect. 172.510(c) of this subchapter.
  (g) A package which contains a residue of an elevated temperature mater-
ial may remain marked in the same manner as when it contained a greater
amount of the material even though it no longer meets the definition in
sect. 171.8 of this subchapter for an elevated temperature material.

Effective Date note: by Amdt 173-227, 56 FR 49989, Oct 2 1991.  sect
173.29 was amended by adding paragraph (g), effective March 30 1992.
The most important part seems to be sect. 173.29(b).

Transporting fuel on a plane, while legal, is a *lot* of trouble and
not worth it, except when taking an Alaska Bush Plane.  FAA regulations
for that are easier.  Your Alaskan Bush Pilot can give you the details.
I don't have the text for those regulations at hand.

Even though the FAA doesn't prohibit it, the Airlines can refuse to
transport any of this regardless.  It isn't just low-aptitude baggage
checkin staff.  When they made me leave my fuel bottle behind, the
gal called up their hazardous materials phone number first.  I am
grateful that I did not have to leave my MSR stove behind.

If you need a quart of white gas, try talking to the store management
at your arrival city.  They, like grocers, may agree to sell you part of
a can, from a quantity under the counter, at a little higher per-unit cost.

David W Olson, my contribution

First, the penalties:
If you transport a hazardous material on a commercial airline flight
without having that material properly marked and contained in a special
shipping container, you can be fined a MINIMUM of $10,000.  And that
fine applies to EACH occurance.  What is a hazardous material?  White
gasoline, unleaded gasoline, Coleman fuel, and a variety of others.  To
complicate matters further, individual airlines may have additional items
on the list which they consider hazardous.

Are backpacking stoves classified as "proper shipping containers"?  The
answer is NO!

How can you find out if your container is an authorized container?  The
box you purchased the unit in should have a "UN" (United Nations) number
which identifies its classification.  You also need the UN number for
the fuel it will contain.  Then you have to dig through the CFR to identify
how it must be shipped.  Within the CFR you can find Part 172, section
101 which applies to "Special Packing/Shipping Authorization".  I do
not know what this section contains since I have not researched it yet.
Then you need to acquire a little diatribe from the International Civil
Aviation Organization entitled "Technical Instruction for Safe Transport
of Dangerous Goods by Air".  You can acquire a copy of this TI by contacting
a company called "Labelmaster" at 1-800-621-5808.  I suspect they will
charge you a fee for aquiring the TI.
Suprisingly, Delores Lucas in the Dangerous Goods Branch mentioned that
she has never heard of anyone asking this question before.  She recommended
that I contact DOT and request an official interpretation of the regs.


Coleman fuel is usually tinted green, as is Wal-Mart fuel.
Gasoline is usually tinted yellow, but I've seen it tinted pink for
high octane.
Deodorized kerosene is often tinted pink (Aladdin fuel) or bright
red/green/yellow/blue so it looks good in glass kerosene lamps.

An interesting lingistic digression (curiosity to real linguists as
their field has moved on unlike the net) is to see the presumption that
an empty fuel bottle is somehow safer.  It was Benjamin Whorf, a fire
investigator for an insurance company who was an amateur student of SW Indian
languages who wrote about this.  Vapor is frequently more dangerous
(depending on the mixing ratio with air).  MIT Press Books still prints
Whorf's writings.  But he would be most amused at this net topic.
This relates to language and the meaning of words and names relating to the
appreciation of natural beauty.

Sec 12072 California Penal Code provides for "transfers between
unlicenced persons" as follows:
     Subsection (d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a
     dealer's licence order for a person to sell or otherwise
     transfer a firearm, the parties to the transaction shall complete the
     transaction through either of the following:

     (1) A licenced dealer pursuant to Section 12082

     (2) A law enforcement agency pursuant to Section 12084
     Subsection (f) Except as provided....(sales to disqualified
     persons)..., violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

  The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 8, clause 16

  "The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming,
and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may
be employed in the Service of the United States..."

From: (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Knees that hurt while walking downhill, summary.

Thanks for the good advice, I've been reading this newsgroup for a
while, and this was the response I hoped to get.  A few people asked
for summaries, so here is "distilled wisdom" on knees that hurt while
walking downhill:

1.  Go see a doctor, or a physcical therapist.  Knee problems aren't
all the same and what works for one, might not work for the other.
I'm going to see the family Doctor today (I had the appointment before I
posted, I wanted to get some net.wisdom first though).

2.  Use trekking poles.  I've never seen them in Utah, but they appear
to be more common outside the USA.  Leki was the only brand
recommended by name.  I like this idea, it makes sense.  Anyone know
where I can get Leki poles in Utah?  (Getting ski poles is no problem
in Utah).

3.  If the doctor assigns excercises, do them.  If the doctor assigns
no exercises, don't do them.

4.  Cross train.  Cycling can help some knee problems (see a dr. first).
I cycle a bit and it helps me stay conditioned when I can't hike. 

4.25  Use good technique when going downhill.  Locking your knees and
pounding them with your weight on a descent won't help.  Keep knees
bent and take smaller steps.  This might mean going slower. 

4.5  Use orthotics.  Several people recommended them.

5.  Knee problems don't always end one's hiking career.  I love Utah
because of the mountains.  Looks like I can still enjoy it.

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ()
Subject: Hantavirus on the Appalachian Trail
Message-ID: <>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 15:50:04 GMT
Here's an entry for rec.backcountry.risks.
The essence is:  "minimiz(e) exposure to rodents and their excreta.
Persons engaged in outdoor activities such as camping or hiking should
take precautions to reduce contact with rodents"
..the final electronic text from the Morbidity and Mortality
Weekly Report (MMWR), vol. 43, no. 47, dated December 2, 1994.  The MMWR
is published by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public
Health Service, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Atlanta,
Hantavirus Pulmonary Syndrome -- Virginia, 1993

     Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome (HPS) was first recognized in June 1993
as a result of the investigation of a cluster of fatal cases of adult
respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) in the southwestern United States (1).
During that month, a 61-year-old man was admitted to a hospital in southern
Pennsylvania with ARDS; recent testing of all available specimens from this
patient has confirmed the diagnosis of HPS. This report summarizes the case
     When hospitalized on June 28, 1993, the man reported a 4-day history
of fever, chills, headache, myalgia, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. After
admission, he became hypotensive and increasingly short of breath and was
transferred to a tertiary-care medical center. Laboratory findings included
leukocytosis (white blood cell count 25,300/mm3), hemoconcentration
(hemoglobin of 20.0 g/L), thrombocytopenia (platelet count 65,000/mm3), and
elevated blood urea nitrogen, creatinine (peak value 6.8 ug/dL),
prothrombin time, activated partial thromboplastin time, aspartate
aminotransferase (peak value 8500 U/L), lactic dehydrogenase, and lipase
levels. A chest radiograph indicated bilateral diffuse infiltrates. During
his prolonged hospital course, he required respiratory and circulatory
support and hemodialysis. He was discharged on July 22, 1993.
     An enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay with heterologous antigens
performed on serum samples obtained on July 2 and July 20 were highly
suspect for hantavirus antibodies. Subsequent retesting of these samples,
as well as of an additional sample obtained in September 1994, with Sin
Nombre virus (SNV) antigens confirmed the diagnosis of HPS.
     In April 1993, the patient had started hiking on the Appalachian Trail
northbound from Georgia through North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and
West Virginia. From May 13 through June 20, he hiked primarily along the
Appalachian Trail in Virginia and reported evidence of mice, including
excreta and rodent traps in shelters and bunkhouses.
     To further characterize the prevalence of hantavirus in local rodent
populations, the offices of Epidemiology and Environmental Health of the
Virginia Department of Health, local health departments, the National Park
Service, and CDC are conducting rodent trapping.
Reported by: BH Hamory, MD, C Zwillich, MD, T Bollard, MD, JO Ballard, MD,
The Milton S Hershey Medical Center, Hershey; M Connor, DO, Chambersberg
Hospital, Chambersberg; P Lurie, MD, M Moll, MD, J Rankin, DVM, State
Epidemiologist, Pennsylvania Dept of Health. C Smith, MD, New River Health
District, Radford; S Jenkins, VMD, E Barrett, DMD, GB Miller, Jr, MD, State
Epidemiologist, Virginia Dept of Health. W Frampton, DVM, S Lanser MPH, CR
Nichols, MPA, State Epidemiologist, Utah Dept of Health. DT King, Harpers
Ferry, West Virginia; A Kingsbury, MS, Washington, DC, National Park
Service, US Dept of the Interior. Special Pathogens Br, Div of Viral and
Rickettsial Diseases, National Center for Infectious Diseases, CDC.
Editorial Note: This report describes the first known case of HPS in the
mid-Atlantic states. The patient's infection probably was acquired along
the Appalachian Trail in Virginia, an area within the range of habitation
of the primary rodent reservoir of SNV, Peromyscus maniculatus (deer
mouse). The prodromal illness and respiratory failure are consistent with
HPS (2); the renal involvement characteristic of Eurasian hemorrhagic fever
with renal syndrome (HFRS) has not been typical of HPS. Moderate elevations
( greater than 2.5 ug/dL) in serum creatinine have occurred in only 10% of
fatal cases of HPS; prominent renal involvement, such as that which
occurred in this patient, has been documented only in two cases from the
southeastern United States, both of which are believed to have been
associated with hantaviruses other than SNV (provisionally named Black
Creek Canal virus and Bayou virus) (3,4). Thus, the marked liver
transaminase elevation in this patient has not been a prominent feature in
other cases of HPS, although the prominent liver dysfunction has occurred
with HFRS (5,6). However, because both renal and hepatic dysfunction can
be caused by antecedent hypotension and other factors, additional case
investigation is ongoing to clarify the relevance of these findings.
     Since June 1993, when HPS was first recognized in the United States,
98 cases have been identified in 21 states. The mean age of case-patients
has been 35.1 years (range: 12-69 years), and the case-fatality rate is
52%; 52 (54%) cases have occurred in males. The earliest retrospectively
identified case, inferred by a history of a compatible illness and elevated
IgG titers detected for SNV, occurred in a 38-year-old man in Utah in 1959.
     The findings in this report extend the geographic area for risk of
human infection with hantaviruses in the contiguous United States and
emphasize the continued importance of minimizing exposure to rodents and
their excreta. Persons engaged in outdoor activities such as camping or
hiking should take precautions to reduce contact with rodents (7). National
surveillance for HPS continues to characterize the spectrum of clinical
illness associated with SNV and identify additional pathogenic hantaviruses
and rodent hosts. Suspected cases of HPS should be reported through local
and state health departments for evaluation and investigation.
1. CDC. Outbreak of acute illness--southwestern United States, 1993. MMWR
2. Duchin JS, Koster FT, Peters CJ, et al. Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome:
a clinical description of 17 patients with a newly recognized disease. N
Engl J Med 1994;330:949-55.
3. CDC. Newly identified hantavirus--Florida, 1994. MMWR 1994;43:99,105.
4. CDC. Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome--northeastern United States, 1994.
MMWR 1994;43:548-9,555-6.
5. Chan YC, Wong TW, Yap EH, et al. Haemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome
involving the liver. Med J Aust 1987;147:248-9.
6. Elisaf M, Stefanaki S, Repanti M, Korakis H, Tsianos E, Siamopoulos KC.
Liver involvement in hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome. J Clin
Gastroenterology 1993;17:33-7.
7. CDC. Hantavirus infection--southwestern United States: interim
recommendations for risk reduction. MMWR 1993;42(no. RR-11).

There are several means of electronic communication available
for use in the backcountry.  Each has its advantages and
disadvantages.  For those interested in such things here is my

CB Radio:

  Advantages:  Relatively cheap one shot cost to purchase the radio,
  no monthly fees, no license required.  Just feed it batteries and
  use it.

  Disadvantages:  Highly uncertain if you will be able to
  contact anyone.  Range is very limited except for unreliable
  "skips."  If you are close to a major highway you could probably
  reach a trucker but from most backcountry you would be lucky to
  contact anyone who could help in an emergency.  Number of channels
  is also limited compared to ham radio.

  CB is useful in talking between members of a group who may be
  separated by a mile or so.

Cellular Phone:

  Advantages:  Easiest to use, no license required.

  Disadvantages:  Expensive.  Monthly fees plus charges per call
  are assessed required plus the initial cost of the equipment.
  (However some people already have them for other reasons so added
  expense is minimal.)  Worse, coverage is *very* limited.  In some
  areas it is quite good but at present these are definitely the
  exception in the back country.  If you are very far from the road
  a cellular probably won't work.

  Note that cellular is in a state of rapid change.  It is a new
  technology and both technological progress and competition are
  driving down equipment prices and expanding coverage quite
  rapidly.  Whatever I write here is likely to no longer be true 3-6
  months from now.  Satellite systems are also becoming available.
  These can literrally work anywhere in the world.  Obviously this 
  provides a very reliable means of communication (if you keep the
  batteries charged).  However it is *expensive*, few of us are
  likely to use it.  If you have *lots* of money a satellite
  cellular phone may be your best option.

"Ham" Radio (2 meter FM, also known as the VHF band):

  Advantages:  Repeaters provide the best coverage of any
  small, lightweight communication device commonly available.
  At least in the U.S.  If you can get to a reasonably high
  place you can nearly always contact someone (buy a repeater
  directory, about $6, to find the frequencies).  Many of these 
  repeaters offer direct access to emergency service agencies
  (or even the regular phone system).  These amateur frequencies
  are also widely used all over the world.  In some cases one
  country will allow you to transmit based on your license from
  a different country.  Repeater availability also varies with
  country.  (The typical US repeater directory also includes 
  repeaters in Canada and Mexico.)  Check rules etc.  in the
  country where you plan to travel.

  Disadvantages:  A license is required, you must pass a test.
  However to use 2 meter you only need a (No-code) technician
  license so you don't need to learn  Morse code (at least in
  the U.S.).

  Radios for this band are priced from around $200 to about as
  much as you care to spend.  Used radios are also available at
  lower prices (many hams want the latest and greatest so they
  sell their older equipment).  A few models (Icom H16, some models
  from Yeseu, Motorola and Bendix-King) will legally do both ham
  and commercial frequencies (including search and rescue
  frequencies).  However most of these are not really optimized for
  ham radio.  If you really get into the ham scene you will probably
  want something with more features. 
  Most commercial radios have only a few memory channels and it is
  difficult to change operating frequencies in the field.  The FCC
  likes it to be difficult so somebody can't easily get on the wrong
  frequency, plus most commercial applications are limited to a
  few frequencies anyway.  Most commercial users never need more
  than 3-4 channels.  Most hams want to be able to be able to play
  with a lot of different frequencies and change them easily when 
  they want to.  Also, commercial radios typically cost a lot more
  than those designed for amateur use.  On the plus side the
  commercial radios are usually much more rugged than the typical
  ham hand held.

  Hand-held radios in this band typically come with "rubber duck"
  antennas which have limited efficiency but can still reach 
  repeaters at distances up to and occasionally beyond 100 miles 
  depending on conditions.  A telescoping half-wave antenna (about
  $30) is useful and extends the range, often considerably depending
  on conditions.  It should have built in impedance matching to work
  with the 50 Ohm output of the radio.  The half-wave is long (about
  one meter) and clumsy so most people keep them stowed while
  traveling and use them only when necessary.  Some commercial
  radios have a better quality antenna connector and internal
  electronics which allows them to use a "rubber duck" and still
  outperform an amateur model equipped with a half wave.

  A word of warning about SAR and other commercial frequencies.  It
  is quite easy to modify many ham radio models to transmit on these
  frequencies.  Modification is not even illegal.  However it is
  *quite* illegal to transmit on these frequencies with anything
  except a "type accepted" radio.  This excludes nearly all ham
  radios.  This restriction applies even if you have a license to
  transmit on that frequency.  This is not well understood and
  even some sheriff's departments think they have authority to
  authorize use of these because they "own" the frequency.  Not
  true.  In the US only the FCC can determine which radio is
  legal, and they guard that prerogative jealously.  There is an
  exception for emergencies but other than that you risk a *big*
  fine if you transmit outside the ham band with most models of ham
  radio.  You may listen to your heart's content but leave that
  transmit button alone.  (Emergencies are an exception but you
  better hope the FCC agrees with your definition of an emergency.)
  Some ham radio models will work on both 2 meter and 70 cm (70 cm,
  the UHF band, is also good but not as useful in the backcountry
  as 2 meter).
 Lower Frequency Ham Radios (HF Frequencies):

  Advantages:  Very reliable contact.  You can literally make
  contact from pretty much anywhere in the world.  By choosing
  the proper frequency you can usually contact someone without 
  the need for a repeater, even over very long distances.  These are
  the radios ham's use to talk half way around the world.

  Disadvantages:  License harder to get than for 2 meter (Morse
  code is required).  Worse, the equipment is usually not nearly as
  portable as 2 meter and you usually need to set up a long antenna
  for reliable use.  Except for major expeditions very few people
  take these into the backcountry.  However smaller (even hand held)
  radios for these frequencies are now becoming available so they
  may become more practical in the future.

A general note on radios:  Although a license is required for
normal use, *anybody* who knows how to operate one may do so 
in an emergency, at least in the U.S.  This is allowed only
for the communications necessary to deal with the emergency.
Of course few people are going to spend the money to get a
radio which they can use only in an emergency, nearly all radio
owners are licensed.  However this rule is an advantage to the
non-licensed members of a group when one has a radio.  If the
licensed operator is incapacitated someone else can operate the
radio in an emergency.  Of course this unlicensed operator better
hope the FCC agrees that it was a real emergency, otherwise he
will likely pay a *big* fine (possibly thousands of dollars).  For
this to be legal there must also be no other readily available means
of communication to deal with the emergency.  The official FCC rules

   97.403 Safety of life and protection of property. - No provision
   of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means
   of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential
   communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of
   human life and immediate protection of property when normal
   communication systems are not available.

Another useful rule in ham radio is that a licensed operator may
allow anyone to use his radio as long as the licensed person
supervises that use to be sure no rules are broken. This may be
useful, for example when a first aider or EMT wants to talk to
somebody in town about a problem.  If there is a ham radio operator
on the scene he need not relay the information between the EMT and
the radio, he can just hand the radio to the EMT and let him talk
directly to the ambulance or to his physician advisor.  (This is
called third party traffic.  In fact relaying messages for a non-ham
is also called third party traffic.)  The crucial point is that the
licensed operator must always be present at the "control point" of
the radio and able to control transmissions.  This is not limited to
emergencies, it applies any time, even if the ham just wants to let
his buddy talk to a friend in town.

Boundary Waters Canoe Area faq:

Raynaud's Syndrome

   The 1/19/88 NY Times had an article by a Dr. Murray Hamlet (assume
    this would be in the science section) that outlined the following
    therapy, requiring about 50 days, that he developed for the U.S. Army
    in Alaska:
       1) In a warm environment, soak hands in warm water.
       2) Keeping hands in warm water, move to a cold environment.
       3) Repeat several times / day.

Vol 18 no 13 march 90 The Physician and Sports Medicine p130-132 has a
review of Raynauds disease. It gives a very nice outline of Dr. Hamlet's
protocol for conditioning therapy in Raynauds. This process involves
disconnecting the central constrictor message from the local one.

Oh yes, bear subspecies, are black bears black or brown?  What's a brown bear?
Etc. etc.

Ursus maritimus -- polar bears

Ursus americanus -- the American Black bear
The name, the American black bear, is a misnomer.
The black bear can vary in color from black to cinnamon.

Ursus Americanus Kermodei, which is a white (and not albino) black bear.
	rare subspecies "spirit" bear

"The Bear Den:"
or Yellowstone Grizzly Foundation:

Ursus arctos horribilis --  "Grizzly," "Silvertip," "Roachback."
Ursus arctos middendorffi  --  "Alaskan Brown," "Kodiak"

From Bear Facts (Alaska) (1/1992 last revision)
From Alaska's Three Bears

Polar Bear
Length: 8-10 feet
Weight: Males 600-1,200 lbs; Females 400-700 lbs.
Color: All white
Alaska Population Estimate: 4,000-6,000

Black Bear
Length: 5 feet
Weight: Males 150-400 lbs; Females 125-250 lbs.
Color: Brown to Black; white patch on front of chest
Alaska Population Estimate: More than 50,000

Brown Bear
Length: 7-9 feet
Weight: Males 400-1,100 lbs; Females 200-600 lbs.
Color: Dark brown to blonde
Alaska Population Estimate: 35,000-45,000

From 1900-1985, 20 people died from bear attacks in Alaska
1975-1985, 19 people died from dog attacks.
Alaska state epidemiogist

The Budget for US Parks was just under $1B in 1994.
The total take-in fees summed to approximately $100M.  (About 10%)
Attendance is approximately 10% of the total US population uses Parks.

"The following set of numbers prove that tourism is an export best-seller
for the U.S.: 1994 came 45,5 million visitors to the U.S., which provided
953.000 jobs and tax income of 7,5 billion US $.
Tourism industry earned a trading profit of 22 billion US $ and was
therefore one of the most important factors to reduce the US trading deficit."

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 18:43:05 -0800
From: Steve Jaynes <>
Message-ID: <>
Subject: [Fwd: GETTING YOUR BACKPACK ADJUSTED FOR COMFORT was: Are Dana Packs worth it?]

Dave others,

Your friend's advice and reputation not withstanding, the Dana, or ANY
correctly fitted MODERN pack should NEVER hurt your shoulders.  If it
did, the pack was NOT the right size or was not properly adjusted.  With
the pack correctly sized and adjusted, your hips, legs, and feet might
complain, but NOT your shoulders.  Modern packs, ESPECIALLY internal
frame packs are designed to take virtually ALL the load on the hips. 
THIS is why the adjustment of the hip belt, back-stays, position of the
Hip belt on your hips, and distribution of the load is SO critical. 
This is also why it is correctly called a HIP belt, not a waist belt.  I
have many people ask me for advice regarding having their breath cut off
by the pack belt when they tighten it as tight as I recommend.  The
reason is they are NOT wearing the belt on their hips, but rather around
their stomach.  Make sure the belt wraps around your hips and NOT your
waist.  I personally have such a "difficult-to-fit" shape, that Dana
made a custom hip belt for me.  Now, I NEVER have any should pain or
belt problems.

On modern packs, the shoulder straps are for balance and attachment to
your body.  Of course, shoulder straps can also be adjusted to take most
of the load for short periods, in order to give your hips a rest, but,
they are NOT generally made to carry the majority of the load for
extended periods, especially a VERY heavy load.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen "macho" guys dragin' down the
trail, tortured under their burden, with their hip-belts hanging totally
un-fastened.  When quizzed, the nearly always say, "Oh I never use the
belt, it cuts off my wind, it's too hot, and I don't really need it." 

Here's some adjustment tips that I hand out orally each summer when
helping people "get packin'." Hopefully, you (and your friend) will take
this info good naturedly, and it will help you or someone else to be
more comfortable while hiking. 


Steve Jaynes

Ps.  I've had about 40 interruptions while typing this article, so email
me if you see an obvious omission or mistake.



GLOSSARY: (Starting at the top the pack.  Sorry I don't have graphics.)

Headspace Strap:  Strap inside SOME packs used to create a space for
your head between the stays of an internal-frame pack.  Should be
tighted to help compress the load to your torso and to create the
"headspace".  Osprey and Dana packs both feature Headspace Straps.

Load Lifter Straps:  Straps running from the top or near the top of the
pack frame down to the tops of the shoulder straps.  These straps are
often erroneously used to force the shape of the pack to be curved. 
Their REAL purpose is to lift the shoulder straps away from the tops of
your shoulders, hence the name "load-lifter" straps.  Some tension on
load lifter straps may in fact help "load" the shape of an
internal-frame pack creating a slight curve.  However, they should never
be tightened so tight as to deform the shape of the frame seriously.

Shoulder Straps:  Straps and padding which rest (lightly)on your
shoulders and keeps the pack tight to your torso.

Sternum Strap:  The strap spanning the space between the two shoulder
straps.  Usually adjusted to mid-chest position.

Compression Straps:  Straps used to compress and hold the load in place,
thereby minimizing load shifting or settling.  These straps usually span
front to back on two or three places on each side of the pack.  Some
packs have these straps running diagonally from the bottom of the PACK
(not the belt), to midway up the pack side.  THESE types of compression
straps are easily confused with lateral stabilizer straps.  If your pack
has what seems to be two sets of diagonal compression straps, one set is
most likely a lateral stabilizer strap.  I your pack doesn't have CLEAR
instructions, ask the retailer or manufacturer which are which.  IT
MAKES A DIFFERENCE.  Ideally, compression straps are used to keep the
load as thin as possible which keeps the weight up close to your back,
thereby helping control the center of gravity.  The diagonal compression
strap helps to keep the bottom of the load from sagging.

Lateral Stabilizer Straps:  Straps which, if present, usually run from
the upper rear of the pack sides down to the BELT assembly or where the
pack fastens to the belt.  Used to minimize pack sway.  Very useful in
off-trail or skiing use.

Hip Belt:  Self Explanatory.  The REAL weight carrying device on a
modern backpack.  My recommendation is that a hip belt be long enough to
leave about a 6 to 8 inch gap for the buckle when fastened.  Any shorter
and you miss valuable load carrying surface.  Any longer and you can't
get the belt tight enough to take the load.  

Lower Stabilizer Straps:  Usually attached to sides of Hip Belt and
bottom of pack frame.  Used for load stability and to minimize sway. 
Can be used to control center of gravity for changing terrain, such as
when going up and down hills.  Tightening these straps cause the pack
top to tilt away from your head.  Loosening does the opposite.


1) Get (buy, rent, borrow) the right sized (length) pack and adjust it
so when the hip-belt is wrapped tightly around your HIPS and the
load-lifter Straps attached to the shoulder straps are at about a 30 to
45 degree angle.  A pack used for a HEAVY load should NOT be any
shorter!  Most manufacturers, try to hit this "mark" and help you to
choose the right size of pack by sizing their packs to fit the distance
measured from your vertebrae which is most prominent at the base of your
neck, with your head bent forward, down to the crest of your hip bones. 
Your total height has little to do with this measurement, as it is
dependent on your torso length, NOT your height.  During this fitting,
the belt for most packs should be positioned with about 1/3 of their
width above your hip bones and 2/3 below the top of your hip bones. 
This is especially critical for women, who may need a different shaped
belt than men.  To find the crest of your hip bones, put your hands on
your top of your hips, just at the bottom of your waist.  Keeping your
hands curved to your shape, push down firmly.  You should be able to
feel the tops of your hip bones.  THIS is the place from which to base
your measurements.  Remember, the measurements are a starting place. 
You may end up with a pack one size either way from what your torso
length indicates.  This is also the place that should be cradled or
cupped by the belt.  Too high and you are tightening the belt around
your waist.  Too low and it will always be sliding down.  Pack length,
belt size and belt placement are critical!

2)  Make all pack adjustments with a load that approximates your real
loads.  Your real load is of course ideal.  MOST men prefer the heavier
part of the load higher up in the pack.  Many women prefer the center of
gravity somewhat lower.  Don't be afraid to experiment.  In all cases,
the heavier parts of your load should be AS CLOSE TO YOUR BACK AS
POSSIBLE.  This is to minimize the leverage the load has on your back
and shoulders and is VERY important with heavy loads.  Water is the
worst offender, because it is so darned convenient to put the nice water
bottles on the outside rear pockets, for easy access (don't forget water
weighs 2 lbs/ quart).  

3)  Start with all hip, load, and shoulder straps nominally loose.  Make
sure that any compression straps have been well tightened to control and
limit any shifting or settling in the load.  Tighten the compression
straps just short of crushing the load!

4)  Put the pack on and begin by adjusting the shoulder straps snug
enough to help you get the belt tight around your hips in the proper
position described above.  Really cinch the hip belt tight.  The
load-lift straps, lateral stabilizer straps and lower stabilizer straps
should still all be loose at this time.

5)  Next tighten the shoulder straps so they are comfortable.  They
should be snug, but not be supporting any great fraction of the load. 
On most packs, the tips of the shoulder straps will wrap just under your
arm pits.  It they come up short, or wrap too far around, get a
different sized set of shoulder straps.  The straps should be tight
enough to keep the load steady, but not restrictive.  Later, you can
adjust the tension based on the terrain.  

6)  Fasten and adjust the sternum strap for comfort.  (I like mine
pretty snug, but my daughter and wife likes theirs looser for obvious

7)  Now put enough tension on the Load Lift Straps so the tops of the
shoulder straps begin to lift away from your shoulders.  Don't use so
much tension that you deform the pack seriously.  On some load lift
straps, you can adjust a buckle which effectively changes the lifting
position where the Load Lifter connects to the shoulder strap.  You can
fine-tune the lift with this buckle.  This "lifting position" should be
just forward of the apex of your shoulder.  Shoulder straps and
load-lift straps, when adjusted correctly create a sort of wedge which
presses more against the front of your breast, just next to your arm
pits, than down from above.  IF you can't lift the shoulder straps off
of your shoulders with the load-lift straps, your pack is the wrong size
or your shoulder straps or load-lift strap attach-points are
miss-adjusted. (If this is the case, go back to step #1)

8)  Fine tune the sternum strap for comfort and re-snug the shoulder
straps if necessary. The shoulder straps still should be held up off of
your shoulders by the load-lifter straps.

8A)  At this point, if this is the first fitting of the pack, or if the
pack has been abused, it's time to adjust (bend) the stays to conform to
the curve of your back.  Bending the stays before adjusting the harness
system, WITH A LOAD, is folly!  Get a friend to help.  This part
important, as it is part of the foundation of your "House".

9)  If your pack has lateral sway straps, apply tension to further
reduce sway.

10)  Lastly tension the bottom anti-sway straps.  I adjust mine looser
or tighter depending on the terrain and whether I'm going up hill or
down.  This will also "load" the curve on some designs like Dana and

11)  Now, move around, shake the load, get the pack and load to settle
and fine tune any and all of the above for comfort.  IF you can't seem
to get it right, start over with everything loose.  Keep in mind that
trying to get the adjustment right, starting half-way through the
procedure, is usually very frustrating.  Don't be afraid to experiment. 
Remember, it's your load, your pack, and your body.  Not even two
different loads in the same pack will fit the same way.


Using this technique, I can load my Large Astraplane Overkill to the
"stupid and bulging" level.  Put it on, stand in the normal walking
stance, hold my arms out horizontal, and the shoulder straps DO NOT
touch the tops of my shoulders. EVER.  Instead, the shoulder straps hug
my upper chest, front-to-back, next to my arm pits, but don't rest my
shoulders.  When my pack is properly adjusted, I normally can get my
fingers between the shoulder straps and the top of my shoulders so there
is never any pressure to make my shoulders sore.  

If your pack and load are adjusted correctly, you shouldn't look or walk
like Quasimodo before or after your hike or feel like you've been on the
Batan Death Marc. (Proper fitting boots not withstanding!)

Talk to the experts at any of the pack manufacturers, including Dana,
Osprey, Lowe, Gregory, or even Dan McHale, and I think they'll agree
with most of the above.

As in the medical profession; if at first you don't get well, get a
second opinion.

Good hiking,

Steve Jaynes


Telling directions using watch thread......

: Take compass from the compass thread.
: Go outside on a sunny day.
: Using the compass and knowing local declination, determine N and S
: on your horizen (objects).
: Next, test using watch.
: Last: and most important, note the answer, and don't post.
: That will force others to empirically confirm for themselves, the answer.
: Saves bandwidth, conveys the real information.
I was bombing through rec.backcountry in my usual Monday morning
"skim and catch up" style when I ran across your answer as posted
above. I almost choked on my fresh cup of coffee! This reply is
so funny, so good, and so true, I only have two things to say:
1) I wish I'd said it 
2) Slap this into one of the FAQs!

List of places and classes of places where magnetic declination is
affected by local concentrations of magnetic ores

South Atlantic Anomaly (academic)
Magnetic Hill, Maui, HI (documented)
El Malpais (1 ob. only)
Cuillin Ridge on the Isle of Skye (1 ob. only)
Tayside, Scotland (1 ob. only 2 times)
N. Maine, west of the Bridgewater / Mars Hill section, heresay only
Northern Lynn Canal (Skagway quad maps) (needs checking)
FAA Sectional San Francisco 2-4 degrees immediate N of SF penisula 2005
End of the trail, near the summit of McClellan's Butte in
WA. UTM 10 604035E 5251062N (NAD27)

"From the 1971 A.M.C. Maine Mountain Guide (3rd ed), pg 6
(Description of the Katahdin Area):

  In using the compass in this area it should be remembered
  that at various points on the tableland of Katahdin, and
  particularly near its summit, local variation in the compass
  is so great as to render it somewhat unreliable.

No mention in the 8th ed (1999).

List of places and classes of places where feces must be carried out

Mt. Shasta (USFS Wilderness area)
Caves (NSS and other policy)
Grand Canyon (and other river trips)
Dry Valleys (of Antarctica [in general])
Certain military training areas

From: "Takeda, Matthew" <>
To: "''" <>
Subject: DW stuff?
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:09:49 -0800

Eugene -

I don't have all of the DW panels, but I didn't see this anywhere I looked
and I thought it might be useful to some people. It's a solution that
eliminates skunk spray odor, and it really works (don't ask).


1 quart of 3% hydrogen peroxide
1/4 cup of baking soda
1 teaspoon of liquid dish soap

Mix the three ingredients together and use immediately. The chemical
reaction produced from these ingredients lasts only a limited time. If you
use this formula be sure to rinse off with water. Do not let the solution
soak for more than a few minutes.

The story behind this stuff is interesting (at least to me, but then I'm an
information junkie). Here is the way I learned about it:

Copyright 1994 Chicago Tribune Company
Chicago Tribune
November 25, 1994 Friday, SOUTH SPORTS FINAL EDITION
LENGTH: 997 words

BYLINE: By Peter Kendall, Tribune Staff Writer.


Salk conquered polio. Einstein unraveled relativity. And Krebaum? Well, Paul
Krebaum, it appears, has developed the first home remedy for skunk spray.

If ever an idea was in the air, it was this: How do you get rid of the smell
that comes from two tiny but ingenious glands at the business end of a skunk.

A garden hose is impotent, soap is utterly useless, and tomato juice is a
quaint old wives' tale that has left many people with skunk-sprayed dogs
that not only stink, but are pink.

But Krebaum's formula, distributed nationally in recent months on e-mail and
in state agriculture department bulletins, is winning over converts who
thought the only viable antidote was the passage of time.

The story of how Krebaum, a Lisle chemist, has conquered the fetid, putrid
odor of skunk is a simple tale of necessity being the mother invention.

But, alas, Krebaum's formula will never bring riches to its inventor, for
the solution is trapped within a cruel chemical Catch-22.

The very chemical properties that make his formula deodorize skunk spray
make it impossible to package. It will burst out of any bottles.

If the story of Krebaum's formula is ever made into a movie, the first scene
will show Krebaum working away in his lab at Molex Inc. in Lisle. His face
is screwed up as he smells something bad.

He is doing research using chemicals called thiols--some of the nastiest
smelling chemicals around.

Thiols are produced by many things, including the degradation of proteins.
Thiols are responsible for the odors that comes from decomposing flesh and
fecal matter.

Most animals have a deep-seated repulsion to thiols, a gift of evolution
that keeps them from eating things that will make them ill.

Using basic chemistry knowledge, Krebaum figured out a way to get these foul
smelling thiols out of his lab by changing them into other compounds. The
trick was oxidation-getting oxygen molecules to bond with thiols and change
them into things that didn't smell bad at all.

To do that, he made a solution of simple ingredients-hydrogen peroxide and
sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)--that did the trick quite well. The
solution threw off oxygen like a dog shakes off water, and some of that
oxygen grabbed onto the thiols and neutralized them.

Meanwhile, in Lisle and elsewhere, evolution had been chugging along for
eons and produced an animal that scientists call mephitis mephitis, the
common striped skunk. Natural selection led the skunk to develop a spray
that exploits other animals' aversion to thiols. Skunk spray is,
fundamentally, essence of putrification.

But fate never would bring mephitis mephitis and Paul Krebaum together, at
least not directly. Krebaum has himself never smelled skunk spray at any
greater concentration than that lingering in the air on a country road.

There were, instead, intermediaries--one of Krebaum's colleagues and a pet cat.

"He came in to work and said his cat had an encounter with a skunk," Krebaum
recalled. "He said he had tried tomato juice, and it didn't work, and the
cat still wasn't able to come into the house."

Krebaum knew skunk spray was made of thiols ("general knowledge," he calls
it), and suggested using a variation of the formula he used for getting rid
of thiols in the lab.

"He came back the next day and said the stuff worked like magic, that every
trace of skunk odor is completely gone from the cat," Krebaum said.

The variation he developed for the cat was this: 1 quart of 3 percent
hydrogen peroxide, which costs about $2 at a drugstore; 1/4 cup of baking
soda; and 1 teaspoon of liquid soap, which breaks up the oils in skunk spray
and allows the other ingredients in the solution to do their stuff. The
solution should be rinsed off the pet with tap water.

In October 1993, Chemical and Engineering News published Krebaum's formula.

One of the most interested readers of the article was Tom McCutcheon, who
was then with the West Virginia Department of Agriculture. McCutcheon, a
plant pest biologist, was something of an answer man for callers to the

"We'd get probably a dozen calls a year, 'What do we do, our pet's been
sprayed by a skunk,'" McCutcheon said. "Tomato juice is the old remedy.
Everybody would say, 'We've tried that, and it doesn't work at all.' We
really didn't have a remedy."

When he read of Krebaum's formula, he was skeptical. Over the years, he had
learned never to recomend [sic] anything he hadn't tried himself, but
getting sprayed by a skunk posed practical difficulties.

"I asked my dog if she'd volunteer, but she said no," McCutcheon said.

It was while driving last February through the hickory and oak forests of
Roane County, West Virginia, that McCutcheon spotted a road-killed skunk.
More hit than run over and preserved by the late winter chill, the skunk was
in fine shape.

Carefully, he wrapped the skunk inside two plastic bags and put it in the
trunk. He knew he had a potent specimen for his experiment when he went into
a drugstore to buy the ingredients for Krebaum's formula and the druggist
noticed the smell on McCutcheon's clothing.

Back behind his office, he made up the solution.

"The whole time, my eyes were watering--I had never been this close to a
skunk in all my life," he said. "I dunked the skunk in the bucket, and
immediately the smell went away. I was very surprised and impressed."

Krebaum had briefly considered trying to figure out a way to patent his
formula, but quickly abandoned the idea.

The formula is, essentially, a chemical engine for churning out oxygen, and
all that oxygen refuses to be bottled.

"Once you mix the hydrogen peroxide with the baking soda, it is no longer
stable," said Krebaum. "You can't store it in a bottle, because it would
explode from all the oxygen."

"It wasn't worth trying to get a patent on it because I couldn't put it in a
bottle, said Krebaum. "So why not make this a free-gift-to-humanity type deal."


Anyway, do with it what you will. I'm not even sure what panel it would fit

Matthew Takeda

Current most remote place in lower-48 thread:

Car and Driver
No Where Man
John Phillips
July 1996
Pages 109-121

37N 24' 49'5"
111W 16' 47.03"
on the Kaiparowitz plateau
30.4 mi from Escalate Halls's crossing and Big Wide
8Mi W of Coyote Gluch, Red Well trailhead, route 12.

"The trouble is, people get there" [In the wild Column]
Bridger Lake (WY), America's remotest spot (minus AK)
The Economist
Sept. 1-7, 2001
page 28
%K Land Rover ad, Cartographic Technologies, VT 

Yosemite reachable by public transport? [US public transport joke thread]

Yes.  Actually, not that hard, but a little time consuming.

The question is usually posed by out of Staters (California) typically
flying in via jet to SFO or LAX.  There are closer airport (e.g., Fresno)
or seasonal answers (Mammoth Lakes)

Easiest/expensive: rent a car.  Drive time is about 4+ hours from SFO and maybe
5+ hours from LAX (faster with speeding ticket potential).
Slower if day time (Winniebagos, weekly agricultural traffic,
weather (winter), etc.)

If in the USA, consider flying to a small more regional airport (near
SFO consider SJC or Oakland), LAX consider Burbank.  From most of these
regional or International airports, a bus can take the reader to Amtrak
which provides BUS service (as much as 4-6 times per day [4 as this writing]).
There are other bus services (Grayhound) which meet up
with Yosemite's YARTs buses (typically one daily now).

Oh, you want a train?
Land SFO, take BART to SF Amtrak station which is a bus across
the Bay to the train station, train to Merced (4 per day, 2 from Oakland,
2 from Sacramento [another airport less traffic than SFO]),
bus to Yosemite (same aforementioned Amtrak bus).
A similar arrangement is possible from SJC.
The LAX exercise is left to the reader.  Hardcopy exists, and most of
this is on the web.

Then consider the following facts from:

Military Medicine. 2004 Jan;169(1):45-56:
Soldier load carriage: historical, physiological, biomechanical, and
medical aspects.
Knapik JJ, Reynolds KL, Harman E.
Directorate of Epidemiology and Disease Surveillance,
U.S. Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine,
Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD 21010

Research shows that locating the load center of mass as close as
possible to the body center of mass results in the lowest energy cost
and tends to keep the body in an upright position similar to unloaded walking.
Loads carried on other parts of the body result in higher energy
expenditures: each kilogram added to the foot increases energy expenditure
7% to 10%; each kilogram added to the thigh increases energy expenditure 4%.


Article 41539 of rec.backcountry:
From: Cyli <>
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: ATTN: Net Ranger (not in wolverine mode.  I don't want to be bitten.)
Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:44:55 -0500
Message-ID: <>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 08 Sep 2005 23:45:21 CDT
Path: darkstar!!ucberkeley!!!!!not-for-mail
Xref: darkstar rec.backcountry:41539

Here's my idea of a FAQ for camping gear care.  Somehow, probably not
surprizing to you, it doesn't seem to look like any other FAQ I've
ever seen.

The first rule I've got for keeping things working, including my body,

responsibility for possible bad things happening to your stuff.

Put your tent fly on right away whenever you put your tent up.  It's
there for one good and several fairly good reasons.  Trust the tent
makers and me on this one.  

Forcing rule is particularly true for zippers and knees, though the
manufacturer seems to not have printed up directions for the knees.
If the zipper doesn't zip in either direction, stop and look at it.
Move it gently back and forth.  Over half the time you'll notice it
has cloth caught in it.  Gently wriggle it free of the cloth and start
over.   Many of the other times it's got dirt in it.  Try a drop of
water to melt out the dirt, again move gently back and forth and start
zipping all over..  Use a silicon spray on it when you get home to
lubricate it.  Do not use soap, detergent, or any oils.  They will
attract dirt and you'll have trouble right up until the tent dies or
you ruin the zipper.  The latter generally comes first.

Knees?   Two ibuprofen before setting out will help.  They don't hurt
less if you move more quickly or carry more, but they might hurt less
if you move more slowly or carry less.  Changing your gait will
sometimes help, using a staff or hiking poles will sometimes help.
Sometimes you should just stop and enjoy the place your knees have
found for you.  Or at least the nearest place that you can camp.  Or
take up canoeing.  Are you out there for pleasure or are you out there
to tell your homebound friends how many miles you put in?  There may
be less miles in the future if you ignore knee pain.

Tent waterproofing?  Why would you?  It's the fly and bathtub floor
that should be waterproof.  They come that way when you buy them.
Seam sealing the fly, unless it's taped at the factory, is a good
idea.  Most good tents come with a tube of seam sealer or are already
taped.  Just because I've never used a seam sealer even on cheap tents
and never had a leaking seam is no reason you shouldn't seal your
seams.  If your fly doesn't cover your tent there's not a heck of a
lot you can do about it, other than make sure you get a decent tent
next time.   You can try painting it with Thompson's Water Sealer or
spray it with 3M stuff or something, being sure to let it dry very
thoroughly before packing it up, I suppose.

Tent poles.  Keep the ferrules (connectors) clean.  This is vital on
plastic / fiberglass tent poles (experience speaks here) and pretty
important even on aluminum or steel poles.  And remember rule #1:
DON'T FORCE IT.  Forcing reluctant ferrules together will certainly
eventually ruin plastic / fiberglass poles and will make metal ones
less than happy.  If it won't fit, don't get a bigger hammer.  Stop
and look at it and then clean out the dirt that's inside the female
ferule.  If you don't do that, be sure to have duct tape along.  Once
you force it and break it, it won't work, so you'll have to bind the
two together with duct tape.  This can last for many camping years
(experience speaks again), though it'll stick out of the stuff sack
and be harder to put through cloth guides.

Ground cloths.  Yes, many people use them.  They have two uses.
Keeping water out of the gear and off you in the tent and keeping the
tent clean.  They won't  reliably keep the water out of the tent if
you don't chose a good location for your tent.  Well, if it doesn't
rain you're okay, but...  If I were to use one, it'd be inside the
tent.  Ground cloths don't need much care other than shaking out and /
or sweeping off after use and folding it dirty side to dirty side
before putting it away.  A few small holes in a ground cloth aren't
important.  Then again, I don't think a few small holes in the tent
floor are important, either, so what do I know? Get another ground
cloth if you get holes and it worries you.  Big sheets of plastic are
cheap and easy to cut to shape.

Stuff in your pack:

Trash bags are cheap.  Put an open trash bag in your pack and then put
your stuff that it'd be nice to keep dry in the trash bag.  When bag
and pack are full, twist the top and tie it shut.  Take along a couple
of extra trash bags for the same reason you take duct tape.  Light,
cheap, useful in emergencies. 

Put your sleeping bag, if down, in a zip lock bag.  Hefty and Glad and
other companies make them in up to 2 gallon sizes now.  Fine for a
down bag.  You can put it in the bottom of your trash bag that's
inside the pack.

Once you get home:  Set up your tent and look at it.  Is it clean
enough?  Is it dry enough?  Take care of either problem now instead of
trying to get the mold and mess out before your next trip.  It is
recommended that tents be hung from a hook so they'll never accumulate
moisture.  Where people hang them, I can't figure.  They can't have
the inventive mice that my home has.  Garages or attics seem like the
best choice.  Hang the stuff sack with the poles from the same hook.
A tent without poles (experience again, though I made do with one
spare pole that accidentally got in my stuff) is a sad thing for a
night of camping.

Sleeping bags once home:  Unstuff, and either hang it in the closet,
preferably by those silly end loops, or let it lie under the bed, so
it'll be nice and fluffy next time.  Be sure to keep the stuff sack
with it.  No attics or garages, particularly if it's a down bag.  And
no under the bed if you've got a platform bed or cats or dogs who like
to wander under there.  

Bags should be washed only when they really really need it.  If you're
a clean and neat freak, use a sheet or commercial bag liner for the
inside of your bag.  Synthetics can generally be washed in a machine.
No.  Not your home machine.  Down to the nearest laundromat for a
boring hour or three with a good book (two if you're a fast reader),
your bag, and a tennis ball.  Get the big heavy duty washer.  Make
sure your zipper is zipped.  Set it to as gentle as possible, pray
briefly (caveat, if you believe in any deity), sit and read.  When
done, lift it carefully into one of the carts they have there and take
it and the tennis ball (which you should have washed along with the
bag, if it's not pristine) over to the dryers.  Put the tennis ball in
the bag.  Check to make sure the zipper is still entirely zipped.  Put
the bag in the dryer.  Fill the dryer with as many coins as it will
take.  Set it to low or no heat.  Pray briefly (caveat repeated) and
wait until it stops.  Feel the bag.  Curse briefly (caveat repeated).
Fill the dryer up with coins again.  Repeat as necessary until the bag
is dry.

Down bags are a whole different thing.  READ THE MANUFACTURERS
DIRECTIONS.  FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS, even if different from the
following.  Generally it's recommended that you gently put it down
flat in a tub of lukewarm water that has some sort of soap already
mixed well into it (recommendations there vary.  Everything from Ivory
Flakes to Boraxo to 'just the water is enough'.   No detergent.  Dish
soaps are actually  detergents, in case you think Palmolive would be
good, so don't use them.   Squish it gently by hand until it seems
clean or the water seems awfully dirty.  At this point, I'd slide it
to the top end of the tub and open the drain, occasionally giving the
bag a little push to drain out a bit more water.  

After all the water that's going to drain easily seems to be gone, I'd
fill the tub again with clean water, no soap or anything this time,
for a rinse.  Repeat the sliding to the end of the tug for draining.
When it's as drained as it can be, lift it gently in both arms and
find a warm dry place to hang it where it can drip dry.  If you have a
deck or porch, over the railing would sound good to me.  If not, I
have no clue.  You're on your own.  When dry, do as recommended for
after the trip, hang or let it lie down flat.

Old bag disposal:  If you live in a northern state, don't dispose of
them.  Put them in the trunks or truck toppers or wherever they'll be
handy in case you get stuck in bad weather, if you've got a lot of old
bags, share with friends, neighbors, and relatives.

What to do with your bag once your tent and sleeping pad are all set
up.  Nothing.  Leave it stuffed and on top of the pad until bed time.
This may not be as necessary for desert camping as it is up here in
lakes country, but it'll help keep any odd critters out, I suppose.
When in any conditions colder and moister than desert, your bag will
seem to pick up cold and damp as soon as you un stuff it.   Maybe from
an edge that's off the pad and onto the ground, maybe from the air.
Whatever, down bags seem particularly prone to it.  At bed time,
unstuffy, shake well, crawl in.

Breaking camp.  Hope it'll be sunny.  If it is, crawl out of your
tent, haul your bag out and spread it over something dry (the tent
being good), inside out to the air.  By the time you're done with
breakfast, and ready to pack up, it should be ready to stuff.  then
the tent. Shake the tent well and turn it sideways so the bottom will
get all dried, too.  While you're doing this, the fly can be set aside
(with weight on it, so it won't kite off on you.).  Put the poles in
the stuff sack, stuff the tent in, stuff the fly in, put on your pack
or put your bags in your canoe or kayak, wash coffee cup out, and be
off for another bright and happy day.

if it's raining, ignore previous.  Stay in the tent to pack up
everything in there.  Get the bag into its zip lock or trash bag.
Grumble.  Take down tent as for sunny weather, but shake it all well
while you grumble.  Put the wet stuff in another extra trash bag so it
won't mess up the clothing in your pack, and go off, hoping you'll
enjoy the day anyway.  Often you will.  

If your last day is wet, get everything unpacked and un stuffed as
soon as possible.  If you can't put up the tent, at least drape it
over the car in the garage until you can get it out in the sun or it's
dry enough to take into the house.   Get the sleeping bag un stuffed
and hung as soon as possible.  It will have absorbed moisture, even if
it doesn't feel wet. 

Sleeping pads.  With closed cell, it doesn't matter too much.  There's
not much that can harm them if you don't rip them on trees or brush
carrying them with straps outside your pack.  If they get wet, dry
them as soon as possible.  With the Thermarest and imitators, however,
you'll want to take care of them at home by brushing them clean and
treating them just like the sleeping bag, but with even more care to
keep them from cats and dogs.  Leave them with the valve open, so
there's some air exchange.   

(Addendum to Thermarests:   I've got a 3/4 pad that I got in about '88
on a clearance as a bait tactic and it's only ever been inflated when
I intend to use it that night.  It's still good.  Do not let this stop
you from treating yours properly, however.)

Gortex.  I don't have any Gortex.  When I got most of my camping stuff
it was still so rare and expensive that it was out of reach.  My stuff
is good enough.  I suppose.  But my camping friends who are out way
more often than I am say Gortex is totally great.  However it does
require some care.  Rule two again here.  Follow the directions of the
manufacturer.  Nikwax is often recommended for washing / refreshing
Gortex.  There are several other brands.  Use what your directions
say.  Gortex will not work as well if dirty.  Dirt, especially oily
dirt, clogs the tiny pores that make Gortex work.  Full washing may
not be necessary if you rinse it well after it's been used a lot.  For
some reason ironing it with a barely warm iron or running it through
the dryer on delicate is often recommended when it seems to not be
working.  See the manufacturer's directions before doing this.

Clothing in general.  See rule 2.  Wash it when it's dirty.  Keep it
as dry as possible when on the trail or river.  Clothing purchased in
the hunting department at Target or Cabela's is as good as
(often better for the purpose) and usually cheaper than L. L. Bean or
Land's End, though not as eye catchingly stylish.

Read the labels.  Please avoid denim and cotton and corduroy.  Even if
they look good.  Keep them for summer days in hot dry places.  Even
then, have something in polypro and or poly fleece along for the

r.bc: vixen.  Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.
email: (strip the .invalid to email)


Looking for an H-912 (container).

User Contributions:

Bad weather scuppers Russian President's flypast as he stages Victory Day show of marine corps power

Putin the actual glitz: gorgeous Russian soldiers take centre stage (moreover selfies) At massive wining Day parade of 13,000 troops, Tanks and rockets as Moscow strongman warns the lessons of WW2 'are relevant once again'Vladimir Putin forced to cancel military flypast over Red Square at the last minute over fears of bad weatherThreat of thunder and cloud over Moscow saw the huge Victory Day display of military powergroundedDespite cancellation Russian president pledged to 'guarantee the high drives of our armed forces'By Chris Dyer For Mailonline and Will Stewart In Russia and Afp and Reuters

issued: 10:14 BST, 9 May 2019 recently: 18:10 BST, 9 probably 2019

Russian lead designer Vladimir Putin took a defiant tone at Moscow's annual military Victory Day parade in Red Square, Declaring that the country continues to strengthen its armed forces.

The Kremlin strongman observed on as 13,000 troops and more than 130 pieces of weaponry were paraded through the capital in a show of Russian military power.

discussing his country's battle with Nazi Germany, Putin then warned 'the lessons of the past war are relevant once again' as he made his case for 'guaranteeing the high faculties of our armed forces'.

Russia's ties with the West soured correct its annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, And Moscow has continued to challenge the nation through its staunch support for Syrian President Bashar al Assad and Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro.

Among the hundreds of pieces of military hardware paraded in front of veterans and dignitaries was Russia's Yars mobile global nuclear missile launcher and its advanced S 400 air defence missile system, Which Moscow has deployed in Syria guard its forces and Putin's new 120,000 4.4 lite V 8 ragtop limousine.

have been also regiments of glamorous female soldiers on display who were pictured smiling as they filed past Mr Putin.

It also included military equipment, Ranging from a T 34 tank renowned for its toughness in World War II to lumbering Yars ICBM launch units, Ground to air rocket missile parts and Russian Armata tanks.

Russian female military servicemen march during the Victory Day parade on Red square in Moscow on Thursday afternoon

Smiling Russian naval cadets were pictured marching in perfect step as they filed past Putin the actual Victory Day parade

Russian Armata tanks roll down Red Square the particular Victory Day military parade to celebrate 74 years since the victory in WWII in Red Square in Moscow

Russian Ground Forces commander in Chief, Colonel common Oleg Salyukov salutes the troops from Putin's new 120,000 collapsible limousine during the Victory Day military parade today

Russian President Vladimir Putin delivers a speech face to face with St. Basil's Cathedral during the Victory Day parade i which he pledged to'guarantee the high performance of our armed forces'

Russian Yars RS 24 intercontinental ballistic missile systems roll through Red Square during the Victory Day military parade in downtown Moscow today

Vladimir Putin kisses his class teacher at school Vera Gurevich during a certified reception marking 74 years since the victory in WWII, doing Kremlwearing

Russian military law enforcement stand in formation [url=]single ukraine ladies[/url] during a Victory Day Parade in the city of Grozny, Chechen Republic

Former Soviet chief Mikhail Gorbachev (core) Is in the middle of his assistants as he arrives to attend the Victory Day military parade in Red Square today

Crowds of people carry portraits of their relatives who fought in World War II as they have fun playing the Immortal Regiment march on Tverskaya Street in Moscow

Russian Pacific Fleet leader, Admiral Sergei Avakyants compares the troops in a vintage car during the Vi (...)
hydroxochloriquine hydroxy cloroquine

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