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[l/m 4/24/2006] Babies and Kids Distilled Wisdom (22/28) XYZ

( Part1 - Part2 - Part3 - Part4 - Part5 - Part6 - Part7 - Part8 - Part9 - Part10 - Part11 - Part12 - Part13 - Part14 - Part15 - Part16 - Part17 - Part18 - Part19 - Part20 - Part21 - Part22 - Part23 - Part24 - Part25 - Part26 - Part27 - Part28 )
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See reader questions & answers on this topic! - Help others by sharing your knowledge
TABLE OF CONTENTS of this chain:

22/ Babies and Kids					<* THIS PANEL *>
23/ A bit of song (like camp songs)
24/ What is natural?
25/ A romantic notion of high-tech employment
26/ Other news groups of related interest, networking
27/ Films/cinema references
28/ References (written)
2/ Ethics
3/ Learning I
4/ learning II (lists, "Ten Essentials," Chouinard comments)
5/ Summary of past topics
6/ Non-wisdom: fire-arms topic circular discussion
7/ Phone / address lists
8/ Fletcher's Law of Inverse Appreciation / Rachel Carson / Foreman and Hayduke
9/ Water Filter wisdom
10/ Volunteer Work
11/ Snake bite
12/ Netiquette
13/ Questions on conditions and travel
14/ Dedication to Aldo Leopold
15/ Leopold's lot.
16/ Morbid backcountry/memorial
17/ Information about bears
18/ Poison ivy, frequently ask, under question
19/ Lyme disease, frequently ask, under question
20/ "Telling questions" backcountry Turing test (under construction)
21/ AMS


This document is not meant to  be a substitute for common sense, or a
treatise on child care.  The purpose of this document is to provide
guidelines and suggestions only as what has worked successfully for other
parents who have ventured  into the woods with their kids, before you. Many
people have contributed to this, either with direct assistance in editing,
or through posts to rec.backcountry.


Bottles vs/ breastfeeding

Equipment for babies and toddlers
Toddler safety
Hiking with kids
Kid's gear
Boots, Packs, Sleeping bags
Predators?]dangers/ risks/personal safety
Canoe camping
Car camping as an option
Older kids./Teens
First aid
The payoff
Final notes

Intro and General Considerations.
You have kids, and now your hiking and backpacking life is over, correct?
Wrong.  While some people decide that taking kids out into the backcountry
is going to be too much work, there are many of us that have had wonderful
family times with a little altering of how we did it "BC". (before children)

The main thing to consider with babies and kids, is that you will have to
modify your goals is whether it is in choice of destination, mileage,
environment  When you take a baby or a toddler, you will have lots of extra
gear, plus be carrying the kid. That's when you pick a location that's easy
to get to, kid friendly, and not too far in. .  There are certain trips you
will want to do with your buddies or childless friends,  to maintain your
sense of what you want for "you", which will free you up to do more family
oriented trips.

Kids will force you to alter your sense of accomplishment and to be
flexible.  For many children, it's the journey that's important, not how
long the journey is. They are slower and  closer to the ground, and by
taking the time to look at the world from their perspective, with their
sense of time, wonder and their short attention span, we learn lessons for
ourselves and build real foundations of a love for the outdoors with our

For all of us who have taken young children into the woods, it is the sense
of wonder and altered time that seems to be recalled most fondly. Children
don't seem to care about mileage, or destination. "Have fun. look at world
through their eyes and it becomes new again" is how one dad put it so well.
Get down to their level. spider webs, dew drops, a crawling bug, tossing
pebbles. There is a real joy in re-discovering nature, on a kid's level.
Older kids are going to enjoy the hike, the mileage and the view from the
top more, but that is something that most families work up to.

Most of the these concepts can be applied to backpacking, car camping, and
canoe camping.

BABIES & toddlers

Many people take their babies. While it requires preparation and thought,
remember, our ancestors were packing infants around with them for thousands
of years, why not you?
Babies, while requiring special care and attention, are not fragile.  With
you, the parent, paying attention, There's no reason not to go.

First, be prepared to take extra gear.   A large capacity pack is  a must.
One of you will be carrying the baby, and just some of the gear, the other
of you will be carrying every thing else.  This will be the pattern for the
first five years or so.  Other ideas for hauling the gear include having a
dog who will carry items that if they get lost/damaged/wet aren't a critical
loss, and recruiting a friend "Sherpa" who is willing to be a part of your
family trips.  More on sherpas later.

Safety note for little ones:
New parents can be unintentionally thoughtless, based only on inexperience.
Precautions to keep in mind are watching for sun /windburn, rashes and
hypothermia.  Babies have no real way to communicate with you until it's too
late for some things like sunburn or wind burn. They lose body heat quickly,
especially through extremities, because they are not generating heat through
activity. Be extra diligent, and educate your self to be aware of all the
possibilities.  One dad said: "I remember taking my 1st born camping when
she was about 6 weeks old, through our thoughtlessness, she got a bad
sun/wind burn and cried all night."

Carrying a kid:
There are lots of excellent kid carriers available. Look for one that has a
good suspension, with padded waist belt, padded shoulder straps and
adjustment points.  Do not attempt to use a basic baby  pack with only
shoulder straps, ("Gerry" type from yard sales) these are not designed with
serious hiking in mind.  Some carriers have places to strap thing on, and
extra pockets.  There are a lot of extra accessories too: sun and rain
guards, stirrups, and so on.
A smaller infant  can be carried in a Snugli type front pack,  which will
balance out a backpack, and keep the infant close for warmth.  On one trip,
Dad carried our 11 month old on top on his pack, sitting on his shoulders,
with the top pocket as a backrest and the baby pack was strapped to my pack
for later use.

Diapers are one of the biggest issues when backpacking.  Let, "pack it in,
pack it out" be your guide, whether you use cloth or disposables.  Under no
circumstances bury or burn diapers. You MUST pack them out.  Scrape the poop
into a cathole.  What we did, is scrape the diapers clean, and then dry them
in a rock in the sun.  This is where a dog pack can be handy: what better
item for your dog to pack out than dirty diapers in plastic bags.  In terms
of weight, cloth diapers will dry more efficiently than disposables.
Good sanitation for the parents is a must. lots of hand washing, and
antibacterial hand wipes might be a useful item to carry.  Consider too that
an infant in a pack will be sitting on his diapers all day long. be sure and
maintain diligence for not getting too soaked, or diaper rash.

The consensus is that backpacking babies are breastfed babies. No bottles to
wash, no formula to pack.  Breastmilk is the perfect food for backpacking.
When they get to the solid stage, just do like you would do at home.  If you
are the type that just feeds mushy versions of what the adults are having,
that will be much simpler than carrying jars of prepared food. A baby pack
can double as a high chair.

Sleeping with babies:
On this, let your experience guide you. Many people do a double sleeping bag
with the infant in between them. The problem with a baby in it's own bag is
that they tend to wiggle out.  If you are going to put baby in it's own bag,
make sure they are dressed warmly enough  to be comfortable in the night
when they do wiggle out. Synthetic bags are washable.

Toddlers & crawlers:
Oh boy, this is the most exciting stage, and one of the most difficult to
deal with. They are little children that are mobile with no sense.
Everything is interesting to them. to look, touch, feel and even put in
mouth. For most families, it works best to have one adult completely
committed to the task of watching the kid, while the other one does camp
chores.  Good communication is a must, so that all parties know who is
watching the kid.

Give up.  Outside dirt is clean dirt  A dirty face is usually a happy face.
Seriously, one can waste a whole lot of time and energy trying to keep them
clean.  Clothing? Forget it, just change it when it's truly soiled, and not
just dirty.  One caution about eating dirt:  one of my sons ended up with a
really nasty fungal diaper rash, presumably from something that was in the
dirt in our yard. Mud is covered on the section "Rain".

Younger Children

Now, they are big enough for walks, hikes and sleeping in their own bag.
This is such a special time. slow down to their pace and enjoy it.  A hike
may consist of a  mile that takes an hour or two, in the beginning.  Let
them set the pace; this is crucial - and be prepared to carry them when they
get tired.  Give them their own pack, and give  a minimum of things to

There are no real rules about hiking with kids. there are too many
variables. As a parent, our job is to be sensitive and aware of their energy
and attitude, and be ready to make alternate plans at a moment' notice. Make
hiking goals reasonable. Keep them fed and hydrated.  Some kids love to
travel on foot, some will dawdle.  Some will set a faster pace than their
older siblings, in order to not let them get ahead.  Some families have done
multi-day loop hikes, and other content themselves with hikes that only go
one or two miles into the woods.

I used to think camelbaks were another gizmo. but they have become a
valuable part of our hiking gear. Specifically, kids seem to love to  drink
form them. I always had trouble getting my  kids to drink enough water while
hiking until we bought them each their own water bag type pack.

Safety  is an excellent program, with lots
of good ideas on how to "woodsproof" your small  kids: what to do if they
get lost and so on.
This is the time to give them a safety whistle, and  the beginnings of the
essential in their pack : a snack, some water and a spare layer.

Some things that may have been taken for granted now how to be reconsidered:
The campsite by the lake, a fire, or the camp spot on the ledge with the
great view may now be a safety issue.

In areas where mountain lions and other stalking predators are a concern,
simple rules are good.
 For example, "no running, have a whistle at the ready and always keep in
sight of me" might be a good place to start.

Other areas to consider are altitude, sunburns, bee stings. just be aware
and prepared. Especially for new parents: the built in awareness that the
baby in your backpack is getting sunburned/cold/ bit by bugs may take time
to develop, so you need to be extra aware and diligent.

Sleeping arrangements:

Tents: At this stage of the game, you may end up with three of you in a two
man tent. Or you may buy a larger three man tent.  If you have more than one
kid, you might  use two two-man tents, with an adult and a kid in each one.
I would not expect a small child to sleep in a tent alone.  For many years,
we did the one adult in each tent thing.  It was great trip when they
graduated into their own tent!! Again, synthetic bags are best because they
are washable, and if they are a wiggler, make sure they are dressed warm
If there is an older child, consider training them early to stay in the
tent together.

Sleeping bags:  ( under gear)


In case you need ideas for how to have fun.(in no particular order)
Looking at nature (insects, flowers, trees, rocks and minerals, birds.)
S'mores or marshmallows, hot chocolate
Stories around a campfire ( Native American takes, folk tales, Jack London
Amateur astronomy
Bouldering & rock scrambling
Skipping stones
Build a swing

Minimum Impact

Even the smallest child can help with keeping a clean camp, and be taught
minimum impact camping  skills.  Teach trash pickup, and minimizing damage
to your surroundings. Kids are naturals at taking care of things.

Kid's Gear

Ah, gear. You can never have enough.  Adding kids to your program will push
your gear acquisition skills and possibly your budget to the limit. Most of
us become very good at sale shopping, hand me downs, and multiple use items.

REI, Campmor, and  MEC ( in Canada)  all stock kid's basics at fairly
reasonable prices.  You can also find things at K-mart like stores, garage
sales, and from family and friends, internet sale boards, clubs.  While the
kids may not need state of the art gear, do consider their comfort and
safety. For example, if it's damp out, you might dress them in fleece,
instead of cotton. Consider their comfort, don't make the mistake of
assuming that because they are kids they can tough it out.

Many of us use handing things down to the kids as an excuse to replace our
old well used gear. This is fine, just be sure the things you are giving
your kids aren't so old and worn as to be unusable.

Tents: see discussion in "younger children"

Feet: The challenge of foot wear is one of the greatest. Feet are always
growing, and there is  a balance between perceived need, true need and
budget.  Some folks feel that sneakers are just fine; some kids will not
wear boots, and sometimes you buy a great pair of boots only to find out
they outgrew them since the last trip. Does a pair of cheap hikers differ
greatly from a $60 pair of hikers? Only you can decide that.

Packs:  Any day pack will do for a small child just carrying a few items.
Once they start carrying gear, there are a number of options for packs.
Small youth frame packs are made, quite suitable for 5-10 year olds.  There
are adjustable frame packs too. We've had good success with small ( for
adults) capacity internal frame pack for an older child,  9-12.  For the
adult, this may be a good time to dig out that old 7000 cubic inch capacity
pack that you haven't used in ages.

Somewhere around 3 or 4 (or earlier) they will want their own backpack. A
small day pack may do the trick at first, stuff it with sweater, snack and
a few waterproof/light toys. Be prepared to hoist it yourself. When the kids
are  older,
religiously watch what goes into their packs to keep the weight down and
the fun up. My understanding is that young bones may be damaged by carrying
too heavy a load 25% max

Sleeping bags:  There are many kid sized options available. Adult bags work
fine, but may be heavier.  Synthetics are best because they are washable.
( pee, barf, etc.)  For colder weather remember that if a sleeping bag is
too big extra heat is required to heat all the unused space. Fold under a
big bag
of get one that fits. Some cool ones have a zipper or other arrangement to
shorten bag. If using an old, old, bag, be sure it's warm enough.

Other gear:  This will be the time to get larger cooking pot; mini
flashlights for the kids, talkabouts (they love gadgets)

Canoe camping:
where possible let kid paddle, with
proper sized paddle. Shorter trips at first, or stop after an hour or so
for a break. Lego keeps them amused for hours and is waterproof. Teach
rescue techniques, have fun doing it. Everyone always wears a proper
fitting approved PFD. I'm almost sure someone on rbp will be happy to help.

Considering all the extra gear that goes along with  kids, this may be time
to enlist a "sherpa". This could be an  aunt or uncle, or a family friend,
who enjoys both the outdoors and the kids.  Their job will be to help carry
as much extra gear as possible, and to be part of the whole experience.
There is incredible value in watching your kids develop relationships with
other adults.  You may owe them pizza and beer afterwards, though!!

First Aid:
Depending on the ages of the kids, some suggestions on what to add to a
first aid kit.
Baby or junior Tylenol
Teething ointment,
Diaper rash treatment
Thermometer, digital type

The car camping option: Many of us will admit that backpacking with small
kids IS a lot of work, and it's not for everyone. An excellent option is to
go the car camping route, perhaps  even primitive camping.  This saves the
bodily carrying of gear,  and provides an easy way to bail if for some
reason things just aren't working on that trip. Car camping with day hikes
and day adventures can comfortably bridge the zone between backpacking and
staying home.

Weather: (more for car camping)
Even with full rain suits and mini barn boots, most small kids will find a
way to get thoroughly wet.  If you know the weather is going to be wet,
bring 3 times as many extra clothes as you think you will need. A tarp makes
for a good play space, and umbrellas make rain hikes enticing.  Choosing to
stay in the tent on a rainy day will be a sure way to test your patience and

Older Kids and Teens

As the kids get bigger,  their strength and interests grow and change. For a
reluctant kid, consider bringing a friend along, or hooking up with another
family that has kids too. Let them help in the trip  and menu planning.
Involve them in the process, packing , setting up camp. you are teaching
them skills. The moment when you can ask them to set up the tent while you
"rest" is a real treat.  Give them a chance to focus on something they want
to do: climbing, fishing for example, even if it's not your choice. Many
older kids love to learn and use real skills such as whittling, map and
compass; rope work.

Without getting into politics, Scouting can be an excellent way to keep your
kids involved in the outdoors as their social needs move away from the
family. The right outdoors focused troops can be an extension of fostering a
love for the outdoors.

Every so often, dump the kids and go off on your own and
rediscover each other.  Make time for you and your partner as friends,
lovers, and wilderness partners.  You will be better parents and partners
because of it.

what follows is a great quote, original attribution lost, written with much
joy and wisdom from a loving Dad.

"In my experience babies are wonderful companions camping. After all, they
did it for the last million years plus. It's adults who have become
maladapted to wilderness. First thing: take the mom! A breast-fed baby needs
virtually no other equipment except diapers. Use a front-carrier. If you put
a Snugli on first, it balances the backpack nicely and you can keep a close
eye on the occupant. Watch out for overheating. That's the main danger when
you keep an infant skin to skin. Otherwise, you basically wear the infant
inside your clothes (this works fine around camp) and sleeping bag, keeping
it so close that you automatically monitor its safety. (Check out books on
hunter-gatherers to study from the experts!) Watch out for babies near
campfires, though! They don't have the instincts to brush sparks off, and
they will roll right into a fire. Fire avoidance is not in the genetic
repertoire, somehow. I began taking my daughter camping at age six weeks.
The sandy bottoms of desert canyons in Spring were very successful, before
the bugs hatch. When you are at the bottom there is nowhere to fall. I
camped with other people who had infants, so our expectations were all
adjusted to the experience. We could load all the babies in one tent with a
single person watching while the rest went off on short hikes. In general,
plan around the baby from the very start. A mile is about as far as we ever
set up basecamp from the trailhead (there's lots of wilderness within a mile
from trailheads, but you have to find it). And everything was camp centered
after that. But that first year, when she was just seven pounds, was by far
the easiest and most rewarding backpacking with my daughter, who's five and
forty pounds now. And don't think the baby doesn't know where it is! All
developmental psychology stresses how primed for later life children are by
their very earliest experiences. My daughter is totally at ease out of doors
now. Wilderness isn't some unnatural experience she'll have when she's ten.
Personally as well as genetically it is where she started from.

Just change your goals. You won't be able to go as far/fast/high. If you
want everything to be the same reconsider your plan. You won't be able to go
as far/high/ because you'll have a heavier pack and maybe a pair of less
strong legs walking (when they are old enough to walk). You also may have to
limit your winter trips-At least I didn't want to take my kids out in -20
weather until they were around 10 years old. You'll need a lot of patience.
Plan flexible trips. Be prepared to shorten a trip. Things like bad weather,
heavy mosquitoes/blackflies have more serious consequences. You'll need more
gear. Larger pots, which when the kids grow, you'll be able to sell (for
sale, 4 liter pot. Kids grown.. these sale things work both ways). Gear for
the kids is a pain, since they keep growing. Shoes are the worst, since
packs can last several seasons, shoes can't. There are different phases.
When they are unable to walk it isn't too bad, except you have a *lot* to
carry. (I wouldn't want to do that solo.) One nice thing about this age is
that you can plot them down and they stay. Then when they can walk, but not
far things get tougher. Expect to carry them a bit. Cooking is a bit a a
challenge, since you have to watch them. Be careful in your choice of
campsites. That nice scenic ledge isn't as good as it used to be. Things get
more fun as they get a bit older. Its fun to watch their awe as they see
various things (animals, waterfalls, etc). You can also get them to start
carrying some of their own gear. Then, they get old enough to hike at the
same speed as you. They may not have the endurance, though. They can also
help. Know how nice it is to get to a site and tell your kid(s), "set up the
tent while I rest?" Then, they get older, and don't want to go with you, but
want to go alone. But they use your gear. Make sure they clean and dry
things after their trip. Then they get older, and buy their own gear, which
may be better than yours. Borrow it. You earned it. There are other options
as well. If your wife hikes too, take turns going alone, leaving the kids
with the other. I used to have a great deal when my kids were young. I would
go away with the kids, and my wife would stay home painting the house. Know
what worked good? Each one of us thought we had the best end of the deal! "


Looking for an H-912 (container).

User Contributions:

Bad weather scuppers Russian President's flypast as he stages Victory Day show of marine corps power

Putin the actual glitz: gorgeous Russian soldiers take centre stage (moreover selfies) At massive wining Day parade of 13,000 troops, Tanks and rockets as Moscow strongman warns the lessons of WW2 'are relevant once again'Vladimir Putin forced to cancel military flypast over Red Square at the last minute over fears of bad weatherThreat of thunder and cloud over Moscow saw the huge Victory Day display of military powergroundedDespite cancellation Russian president pledged to 'guarantee the high drives of our armed forces'By Chris Dyer For Mailonline and Will Stewart In Russia and Afp and Reuters

issued: 10:14 BST, 9 May 2019 recently: 18:10 BST, 9 probably 2019

Russian lead designer Vladimir Putin took a defiant tone at Moscow's annual military Victory Day parade in Red Square, Declaring that the country continues to strengthen its armed forces.

The Kremlin strongman observed on as 13,000 troops and more than 130 pieces of weaponry were paraded through the capital in a show of Russian military power.

discussing his country's battle with Nazi Germany, Putin then warned 'the lessons of the past war are relevant once again' as he made his case for 'guaranteeing the high faculties of our armed forces'.

Russia's ties with the West soured correct its annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, And Moscow has continued to challenge the nation through its staunch support for Syrian President Bashar al Assad and Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro.

Among the hundreds of pieces of military hardware paraded in front of veterans and dignitaries was Russia's Yars mobile global nuclear missile launcher and its advanced S 400 air defence missile system, Which Moscow has deployed in Syria guard its forces and Putin's new 120,000 4.4 lite V 8 ragtop limousine.

have been also regiments of glamorous female soldiers on display who were pictured smiling as they filed past Mr Putin.

It also included military equipment, Ranging from a T 34 tank renowned for its toughness in World War II to lumbering Yars ICBM launch units, Ground to air rocket missile parts and Russian Armata tanks.

Russian female military servicemen march during the Victory Day parade on Red square in Moscow on Thursday afternoon

Smiling Russian naval cadets were pictured marching in perfect step as they filed past Putin the actual Victory Day parade

Russian Armata tanks roll down Red Square the particular Victory Day military parade to celebrate 74 years since the victory in WWII in Red Square in Moscow

Russian Ground Forces commander in Chief, Colonel common Oleg Salyukov salutes the troops from Putin's new 120,000 collapsible limousine during the Victory Day military parade today

Russian President Vladimir Putin delivers a speech face to face with St. Basil's Cathedral during the Victory Day parade i which he pledged to'guarantee the high performance of our armed forces'

Russian Yars RS 24 intercontinental ballistic missile systems roll through Red Square during the Victory Day military parade in downtown Moscow today

Vladimir Putin kisses his class teacher at school Vera Gurevich during a certified reception marking 74 years since the victory in WWII, doing Kremlwearing

Russian military law enforcement stand in formation [url=]single ukraine ladies[/url] during a Victory Day Parade in the city of Grozny, Chechen Republic

Former Soviet chief Mikhail Gorbachev (core) Is in the middle of his assistants as he arrives to attend the Victory Day military parade in Red Square today

Crowds of people carry portraits of their relatives who fought in World War II as they have fun playing the Immortal Regiment march on Tverskaya Street in Moscow

Russian Pacific Fleet leader, Admiral Sergei Avakyants compares the troops in a vintage car during the Vi (...)
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