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IS THE ENGLISH BULL-TERRIER(GAME BRED)ANY MATCH FOR A GAME...

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Question by GUSS
Submitted on 11/28/2003
Related FAQ: rec.pets.dogs: Bullmastiffs Breed-FAQ
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IS THE ENGLISH BULL-TERRIER(GAME BRED)ANY MATCH FOR A GAME BRED PIT-BULL TERRIER?(THE BULL-TERRIER IS THE LARGEST OF THE FIGHTING TERRIER DOGS.


Answer by IF YOU LIKE
Submitted on 11/29/2003
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I WOULD THINK SO.THEY ARE BOTH VERY THOUGH DOGS.THE BULL TERRIER IS HEAVIER AND MAYBE STRONGER THAN THE PIT-BULL.THEY HAVE GAME BREDED THE PIT BULL FOR DOGFIGHTING FOR SO LONG THAT THEY HAVE THE ADVANTAGE IN GAMENESS.BUT YOU CANT TEACH THE DOG COURAGE.SO IT DEPENDS ON THE DOGS.THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS SO THERE ARE A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM.I HAVE A STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER.HE IS 23 KILOGRAMS SO HE IS BIG.THE PIT BULLS ARE ABOUT THE SAME WEIGHT.MAYBE 2-3 KILOGRAMS HEAVIER.I THINK THE GAME BRED STAFFORDSHIRE HAS A BETTER CHANCE THAN THE BULL TERRIER.BUT THEY HAVE TOO GAME BRED THESE DOGS OR THEY HAVE NO CHANCE AGAINST A GAME BRED PIT-BULL.THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CURE AND GAME BRED DOG.ALL THESE TERRIER DOGS ARE BASICALLY THE SAME DOGS.SAME BREEDING PROGRAM.BUT ITS HARD TOO SAY WHO WILL WIN.I THINK THE PIT BULL IS THE BEST POUND FOR POUND FIGHTING DOG BUT THEY DO GET THEIR BUTT KICK.IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE OTHER DOGS FRAME OFF MIND.

 

Answer by TOBBY
Submitted on 12/2/2003
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i believe the pit-bull wins.the only fighting dog who can match a game bred pit-bull is a game bred tosa inu.

 

Answer by lock dock bay
Submitted on 12/2/2003
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who knows?i do believe that the English bull terrier would give the pit-bull one hell of a fight.the bull terrier is bigger than the pit-bull.i think the pit-bull is a Little over hyped.they do get beat from time too time.they also game bred the pit-bull much more than other fighting dogs.if all fighting dogs were game bred the same way the pit-bull would be in big trouble.

 

Answer by Duncan
Submitted on 12/7/2003
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The game, proven champion American Pitbull Terrier will win 99% of the time.  It wouldn't even be close.

 

Answer by stevo
Submitted on 12/13/2003
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i own a six years old bully and trust me from rotty,pit and any other fresh man who want to test their medals he was always ready for more...

 

Answer by graymalkin
Submitted on 12/15/2003
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I know from seeing an English Bull Terrier soundly thrash a Rotty that it could probably give a "Pitbull" all the fight it wanted. But then again it probably depends on the individual dog.

 

Answer by Bully Girl
Submitted on 12/24/2003
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I have 3 Male Bull Terriers, I have had Pits too. I am also a Vet Tech, The Tosa would be no match for any terrier, they are too big & not as quick as the terriers. But I do agree that pits are over hyped! Awesome dogs but over hyped! One of my Male BT'sLiterally killed my friends 125Lb. Rott, he tore his throat apart. A BT & a pit would be close.

 

Answer by BEXY
Submitted on 12/27/2003
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MY GRANDAD BREEDS ENGLISH BULLS. HIS YOUNGEST MAX IS ALLERGIC TO GRASS.AND HE HAS A FUNNY WAY OF SCRATCHING

 

Answer by BEXY
Submitted on 12/27/2003
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MY GRANDAD BREEDS ENGLISH BULLS. HIS YOUNGEST MAX IS ALLERGIC TO GRASS.AND HE HAS A FUNNY WAY OF SCRATCHING

 

Answer by faisal ali
Submitted on 12/29/2003
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I think non of u know what u r on about i have an ebt male and a apbt female and she would kill him and as for those people who said the tosa inu cant fight i know a man who has a tosa and it would beat any dog you would bring in front of it in seconds

 

Answer by against dog fighting
Submitted on 12/30/2003
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u r all sick bastards if you think dog fighting is a cool sport!!!

 

Answer by Bull Terrier Expert
Submitted on 12/30/2003
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Trust me the BT would Kill any PIT Bull hands down.  Mine was at a dog park and some dumb ass brought in a pit bull.  It attacked mine and my BT killed it by breaking its neck.  So all you Pit Bull Owners on this site that think differently...GET A CLUE!!

 

Answer by Alex
Submitted on 12/30/2003
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Some of you guys have great answers I personally believe that my Rott male will trash any dog game bred or not.Pit or bull terrier whatever my Rott can take them, I don't say this because his my dog I say it because I've seen it happen a variety of times when people come up with pitbulls thinking that my Rott is going to back down. Yeah the pit is faster but once my rott gets a hold of them they don't know which way is up.

 

Answer by storm
Submitted on 12/31/2003
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I TRAIN DOGS FOR DIFFERENT POLICE FORCES ACROSS CANADA FOR OVER 22 YEARS.  TRUST ME A DOB,ROTY,OR SHEPARD ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME LEAGUE WHEN IT COMES TO FIGHTING LIKE A PIT BULL OR BULL TERRIER.

 

Answer by BT Express
Submitted on 12/31/2003
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I have had two bull terriers and they were both devastating in dog fights.  To the Rott owner, please keep your a Safe distance from any BT.  My Bully, Samson, destroyed a Rott when he was six months old and still a pup.  Incredible dogs.  However, I must add that all the fight my dogs were ever in were started by other peoples animals that were not on a leash.  The size of the Rotts hurt them in combat with the agile, smart bully.

 

Answer by Sanity
Submitted on 12/31/2003
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You bunch of pricks.

 

Answer by BT Express follow up.
Submitted on 12/31/2003
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I wish to add further to previous post.  I do not believe in dog fighting in any way shape or form.  The times my Bully's were involved in fights was strictly due to the fault of others.  My dogs were on a leash and the untethered dogs attacked my boys.  They should have known better.  With that being said, the bull terrier is one of the most loveable copanions that I have ever owned.  Very loyal and normally do not go looking for a fight.  However, they do not shy away when involved in one.

 

Answer by Alex
Submitted on 12/31/2003
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Hey storm I understand what you are saying about dobbies rotts and shepards not being in the same league as pit bulls and bull terriers but once you'll see my dog fight you'll understand why I'm posting  that my rott can fight, I have owned a pitbull gamebred and ears cropped and everything I sure thought that it thrash my rott without so much as one pant , but then my root went head on against two loose saint bernards thats when i decided to try out the pit against my rott, they both hated each other that'sone of the reasons why i kept one in the front yard and the other in the back yard so when i tested them i had to practically hit my 8 month old rott in the head with a shovel to get it off my game bred fighting pit which was 3 years old and a true fighter. So tell me how do you expalin that now wait more of it explain my 8 month old rott brutalizing my cousin's trained to fight bull terrier. personally I think it'd the dog not the breed or size

 

Answer by Jaco
Submitted on 1/2/2004
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I got a Bully, he has been figthed 6 times against APBT´s, won 5 and lost 1, Bullies, have been losing gameness, because selection, but still keeps a lot of fire, undoubtedly APBT is most of the times better in combat, but any Bully can defeat them anytime.

 

Answer by female fighter
Submitted on 1/3/2004
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I have raised fighting dogs for many years.  I don't think you can classify a rott with a BT.  Yes, it is the individual dog.  If trained properly you can instill drive and wind capacity however, a rott and a BT well there is such a weight differential it simply doesn't seam fair.  It will also create a cure BT if you are not careful.  I have never seen a dog with so much heart as a BT.  In the early 80's I thought this was very cruel but after seeing my first fight and the tails wagging the entire time.  I realized it's the heart of a dog "the desire to fight".  Yes, you can nurure it but you can't create it.  Well, only if you breed back properly.  PS.  I did own a rott for 17 years 185lb. female (never consider fighting her).

 

Answer by barney
Submitted on 1/3/2004
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your all sick bastards! people like you give bull terriers a bad name

 

Answer by A REAL MAN
Submitted on 1/4/2004
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I DONT DISAGREE WITH BARE KNUCKLE FIGHTING OR GAMBLING BUT YOU MAKE THESE ANIMAL DO IT BY FORCING THEM IN THE SAME WAY AS A BLACK DOG WAS TRAINED.I THINK YOU SHOULD BE MEN AND FIGHT YOURSELVES.I'LL DO IT!

 

Answer by stevo back again
Submitted on 1/4/2004
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This is for my good friend "BARNEY"...First of all my dog is pure bred CKC registered,tatooed and even have a chip so i can locate him anywhere if he get lost.I love him whit all my heart,he my pride and joy every day of my life...Everytime my BULLY got involved in a fight,it was because the other dog ad no leash on.Where i live law enforcement don't give a dam about dog problems...You no years ago i own a sharpei and a female pit bull (rednose)never they fight each others.My point is,yes BULLY like  to scrap,yes they are fighting dog,yes some are still very game like it or not.You peapole shoud stop lying about the "ENGLISH BULL TERRIER" and say the true one for all.This is not a lap dog,he is a loving,guarding,fighting eck of a war machine.God bless every one.....

 

Answer by barney
Submitted on 1/4/2004
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this is for my good friend "stevo" i know all about bull terriers  mate we've had them in our family for years and know all about there fighting prowess but how are these wonderful dogs ever gonna get rid ov all the bad press and stigmatism if people keep boasting  about there abilty in  the fighting pit! theres more to them than just a killing machine!!

 

Answer by sharon
Submitted on 1/5/2004
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Its people like you lot that give english bull terriers a bad name. I own two of them and i would never consider fighting them ITS CRUEL AND SICKENING .They are fantastic dogs and are very good with kids i love my dogs too much to even think of fighting them.Ive got 3 small children that climb all over them  i trust my dogs with my life ENGLISH BULL TERRIERS are the best dog. But it all comes down to the owners and how they bring them up were not sicko fighters THANKYOU.

 

Answer by Sick_bastards
Submitted on 1/5/2004
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I think that u who think dog fighting is a cool sport should get ur heads checked!!! i absolutly adore dogs and have owned an English Bull Terrier called magnum, he was a lovely dog, so careing and affectionate, he was my best companion and was like my brother. i would never fight him for sport, even though knowing full well that the gladiatior of the canine world, a dog which feels no pain when fighting, has the body and the head for fighting, and one which will always fight to the end. would beat a pit bull terrier hands down. i now own a Bernese Mountain Dog, she is absolutly gorgeous. so y dont u ppl show ur dogs instead of fighting them, im sure ud get alot more enjoyment out of it.

 

Answer by female fighter
Submitted on 1/7/2004
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This is for all those close minded people who think dog fighting is cruel.  I felt the same way before I saw a fight.  During the fights these dogs tails are wagging.  Definitely a sign of pleasure.  Once turned they cried to get back at each other.  As for show well I've never sat a dog down for less than 25,000 and some I could never replace for that!  I've also never fought a cure dog only those who showed the potential and desire to do so naturally.  I do believe you can encourage the fighting ability but I've got to tell you - if a dog has teeth he has the potential to bite.  I would never trust small children around these dogs or any dog larger than themselves.  Don't be fooled by their natural instinct to hunt, smaller prey.

 

Answer by aldogreenock
Submitted on 1/8/2004
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a big fan of pitts i see we have here

APBT is pound for pound the best fighter in the dog world. end of.

an english bullterrier would give one a good fight and might win some of the time but generally th APBT would win. an english bullterrier would generally beat a staffy- not through its fighting ability more through being a bigger dog.

however-although not fighting dogs- IF- you put a APBT against something like a Fila,neo or other molosser type dogs the pitt will get mauled. the pitt may be able to fight better...but it simply cant compete with some of these dogs who can be 250lbs without any fat on them....

i think dog which would win most fights would probably be a fila- these are used to hunt jaguars(pound for pound the most powerful big cat)...and are absoloutely massive at up to weights of 250lbs...a APBT simply could not handle the power of such an animal

Tosas- you underestimate tosas- outside of japan people who claim they have tosas- very few will it be pedigree- also it will not be of a fighting line probably if it is a large dog...

tosas can be 200lbs heavy but this is not the fighting dogs weight- tosas fighting weight is about 110lbs roughly i think...the fighting weight tosa...from a REAL japanese breeded is EXTREMELY rare outside japan...people who claim to have these animals 99.9% of the time are telling lies...these dogs are given by japanese royalty to other countries leaders etc...not just given away...and they are tremendous fighters...i wouldnt say they could take a game APBT most of the time but sometimes they would and they will fight to the death.


 

Answer by the DOGG
Submitted on 1/8/2004
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is it legal to have american pit bull terriers in  england or do you  need pomition from the goverment

 

Answer by aldogreenock
Submitted on 1/9/2004
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dogo argentino, american pitts, tosas and filas are all banned in england

if you want one you have to get a license...they are tatooed,neutered,electronically tagged- they have to have a muzzle on at all times outdoors and have to be walked by someone over the age of 16

-chances are you wouldnt be allowed one

 

Answer by Edd
Submitted on 1/9/2004
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I agree that Pitbulls are over hyped but its this hype that has earned them their reputation and as far as Bull terriers are concerned they are the toughest dog that i think the Pitbull will ever face in a fight the same goes for the Bull terrier. Conclusion IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE PERSONALITY OF THE DOG AND THE WAY YOU TRAIN EM....

 

Answer by sharon
Submitted on 1/12/2004
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some of you obviously don't trust your own English bull terriers but i suppose thats understandably if your into fighting them i wouldn't trust yours either but i can trust my dog Ive owned her for 10 years and she has never raised a tooth to any of my kids and if i even thought she might i wouldn't let her near them cause although my dogs mean the world to me my kids safety is worth much more just one more thing for all you English bull fighting dog owners with kids maybe you are not worthy of owning a dog of such a fantastic nature which shows loyalty to its owners they deserve the same respect back then maybe you could trust your own dogs like i trust mine 110%

 

Answer by DOGMAN
Submitted on 1/12/2004
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ENGLISH PEOPLE AND ENGLISH BULLTERRIERS BOTH ARE LOSING GAMENESS.EB WAS BRED BY HINKS FOR FIGHTING, A GLADIATOR DOG, MONGRELS CAN EVEN BE LOYAL COMPANIONS, APBT WERE BRED FROM HINKS EBT AND OLD TIME STAFFORD'S, NOT TODAYS FROGS. CHECK MATE. OLD TIMES WERE GOOD, PEOPLE WERE GAME. TODAY YOU HIDE BEHIND YOUR GUNS. LONG LIVE DOG FIGHTERS, FIGHTING DOGS, AND THE QUEEN. IM NOT ENGLISH BUT IM STILL VERY GAME. GOD BLESS YOU ALL. SCRATCH AWAY!

 

Answer by Vice_Lord
Submitted on 1/14/2004
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Form some of you game dog experts I'd like to know what you think of the gameness of the Blue Nose Pitbull, and also of the Sorrel bloodline.  Do you think the Sorrel is a gamebred bloodline or showdog?  How earily on should you be able to notice game type toughness in you dog?

 

Answer by Bully
Submitted on 1/15/2004
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i no from experience that bull terriersare great fighters but i would never go out of my way to fight them.

 

Answer by cricket
Submitted on 1/16/2004
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I dont condemn dog fighting, but I am very knowledgeable on the subject. First of all; Gameness: I dont think you guys really understand the word. A game dog will not quit. Reagrdless of exhaustion, pain, half dead, broken legs, stab wounds, bats, sticks, shooting it, or anything. Only death will stop it. Or if a person that really knows how to handle fighting dogs breaks it up. All of you guys who think that Rotts and Bull terriers are a match for a "Real" "Game" fighting pit are just crazy. Their is no other dog under the sun that has the gameness of a pit. True enough, there are dogs who can tango with a pit, but only for about 5 to 10 minutes. After that any other dog would have gotten tired or hurt and quit (live to fight another day). 90% of dog fights do not end in death, and the other 10% usually die the next day usually because their kidneys and other organs shut down to save oxygen to deliver to the muscles during the long exhausting fight. So those who said there dog just instantly killed another dog, they're full of you know what. ( unless it was a chihuahua it killed)Going straight for the throat is not even a dogs instinct, thats what cats do. Even with wolves, they injure thier prey, take it down and eat it alive. Nothing is instant about it. Getting their neck broke in a fight, never, it's the most flexible and muscular part of a dogs body. ex: (they lick their own butts). So once again thats "Bull". Rotts are'nteven a fighting breed, so no chance at all. Pits are strategic fighters, some go for legs, some for ears, some for the nose, some for the lip, etc. But each dogs has it's own preffered spot and they will hold and punish that spot until the other dog currs out (quit). Terriers and fighting breeds fight by holding on to one particular spot and shaking and pulling it, and basically try their best tear it off.  Other breeds bite any and everywhere and rarely hold on to one spot for longer than a few seconds. Im about to rap this up cause it's getting kinda long. A game bred bull terrier would give it a good match, but the pit's "gameness" will prevail in a long match. Rotts, no match. Tosa, may win only due to the extreme size difference. Find a pit as large as a tosa, no match.

 

Answer by stevo back again
Submitted on 1/17/2004
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Answer to cricket:Finaly some one who noes what he talking about...I agree whit you 100%.There's a different between street fighthing dogs and Pit fighthing dogs.My dog (BULL TERRIER)was on a high scale in the street and a very tuff one customer to.But in the pit it's another story.When pound for pound,best agains best is match,pitbull are the gold medalist in the pit's.Even doe my dog whip my neighboors PITBULL in a thirthy mnutes fight,probably one exception in the rules...

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/17/2004
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BULL TERRIERS WERE MADE TO CATCH RATS AND TO FIGHT DOGS THEY R DEFINITELY WINNERS AND THE STRONGEST ENGLISH DOGS

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/17/2004
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ENGLISH BULL TERRIERS R BORN TO FITE.U DNT NEED TO TRAIN THEM TO B STRONG BUT IF U DO TRAIN DEM THEY CAN BEAT DOGS 3 TIMES THERE SIZE

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/17/2004
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DUS NE1 FINK A STAFF CAN HAV A BULLY!

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 1/17/2004
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Sounds like some are confused about what gives the APBT the ability to fight and make it the #1 unbeatable in the majority. A large, powerful or aggressive dog does not make the best selection for a fighting dog. Many breeds have been tried against the APBT as well as eachother. It certainly depends on the individual dog when it comes to fighting desire and ability, BUT the majority of Pit Bulls have a great ability and game dogs have a great desire to fight and never quit. Even if another breed did happen to beat a gamebred Pit Bull it would only be threw death, this is not likely to happen b/c fights can last a long time and the other breed of dog is likely to quit or be killed themselves before the Pit Bull thinks of stopping. An English Bull Terrier that was actually gamebred would probably be a nice match as well as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Some SBTs are still being gamebred, these are very rare though. Think about how silly this ? is in the 1st place. Could a gamebred BT? Of course if BT were actually gamebred as well as anyother breed, things would be practically equal. The only factors would be who has the better breeding program *individually not breedwise) who's dog is better conditioned at the time of match and the ability of the dog, ect. Things that usually govern a match between 2 APBTs would be the same for APBTs against other GAMEBRED breeds if they existed.

wouldn't think the BT is stronger, the APBT is also probably one of the strongest breeds. They out pull dogs bred to pull. They can be 1/2 the size of a St Bernard and pull the max weight a ST Bernard pulled which is a much bigger dog.
It is true you CAN'T teach a dog courage but you can teach them confidence, that is what schooling rolls are for.

This statement is ammussing: . "the only fighting dog who can match a game bred pit-bull is a game bred tosa inu."
What gamebred Tosa? There is no such thing. The only dog bred for gameness is the gamebred American Pit Bull Terrier. Tosa's are bred for fighting one another. Their matches are usually short and almost all dogs are currs or have curred. Do a little research into the Japanese dog fights. Two Tosas are pitted against one another. When one knows it is beat it quits. This dog is not culled like a curr Pit Bull. It is fought another day, it may win if the other dog quits or it may loose again. Even if that were to happen the dog would still be fought again and the dog would be bred. Tosas don't have to be game in the least to fight. Tosa matches are also very short and many dogs don't get severve injures they stop fighting before that happens. APBTs are pushed to limit, close to death, matches can be up to 4 hours or more. The dogs are seperated and released to prove it wants to continue despite it having broken bones, being dehydrated, being blind and having severe blood loss. No Tosa would do that, it would stop fighting. And Tosa's usually don't win against an APBT even with their huge size advantage. There have been many go's at this. Here is just one account of Mills' Buster. Who was just a pet bull. This is against at fighting bred Tosa in Tokyo. He is a 3 Time ALL-JAPANESE CHAMPION and weights in over 130lbs. Buster weighted in at 57lbs. Buster really laided into the dog but didn't do too much damage as he was pulled off by his owner and the Tosa had giant jowls. Next Buster was rolled 2 times into two different 100+lbs Tosas. The rolls were only 20 mins each (totally 40 mins) Buster was much quicker which is a major advantage in any fight and even appeared stronger than the Tosas being ontop and laying into them. The Tosas were in defensive trying to save themselves while this Pit Bull 1/2 their size tore em up.

The statements I read don't even add up or come to a conclusion as to why one breed is better over another. Such as "I know from seeing an English Bull Terrier soundly thrash a Rotty that it could probably give a "Pitbull" all the fight it wanted." What does trashy a rotty have to do with a Pit Bull? They are comparable in no way, shape or form. Rotts are not bred for fighting nor do they enjoy it. Some Rotts can be aggressive and do to their strength and size cause injury to other dogs. Know someone with gamebred APBTs also had two large Rotts. They both acted aggressivly, one made an excape from his pen. He ran to they neighbors fox terrier i think is what they have and that dog made that Rott back off quick. The FT is a tenacious little dog, the Rott could have injured him had he got ahold of him, but he wasn't expecting this dog to attack him so he was shocked and confused. Many Rotts have been in this situation. Unfortantly it wasn't so pretty because the owners think their dog is really bad and try to put it with a Pit Bull and it gets mauled and trys to run after the first deep injury. Rotts won't stick it out at all if they get hurt. It wouldn't surprise me at all if an EBT trashed a Rott, wouldn't be much of a challenge

Most doggers don't put their APBTs with currs. It is very cruel, it is a waste of time and it could possibly cause bad habits if it weren't a seasoned dog. The only time I have seen this done is when someone runs their mouth and is very persistent. A pit dog was once let loose on a giant cheasapeake bay retriever, this dog had killed many peoples dogs. It was only done to teach the man a lesson, its bad his dog had to suffer for it. I'm sure when the Chessie owner tapped the pit dogs owner on the shoulder and told him he just lost his dog he was seious. Who wouldn't be you couldn't see the pit dog with the chesse on top of it. You can bet when the Chessie was picked up with a pit dog hanging from it and it bleeding the man was in the shock of his life. The pit dog fought from the bottom of such a big dog and the man was frantic, he didn't believe any other dog could kill his dog. Now in more modern times its the Rotts, and other breeds. Including Dobies which is non-sense. Dobies suck at fighting, although LOTS are dog aggressive and also have a lot of prey drive. They however don't have the nerves for it. They die from shock before they ever know what hit them, they act aggressive but when something bites back, its scarey for them.

I don't see them as being over hyped. It is just the truth a dog in MOST cases is usually going to excell over dogs of other breeds in doing the task it is bred for. Maybe they are someties hyped by certain people, but those same certain people also face the same problem as the curr owners. They may have APBTs but not game APBTs, these are even in different leagues, not all APBTs are equal. Many think they do have a good APBT because their dog has killed a curr or a mutt, when they finally after so much trying are allowed to place their dog with a real game dog, their dog gets busted up and beaten. It runs away, jumps the pit and quits. The dog is the same as the other currs  some doggers occasional let their on. Rotts are over hyped where I live, people think they are good fighters and guard dogs. There dogs don't want a real fight, and are actually nice when you have no fear of them.

"if all fighting dogs were game bred the same way the pit-bull would be in big trouble."
What does that mean ALL fighting dogs. The APBT and the TU are the only two dogs specifically bred for fighting. They wouldn't be in big trouble at all. Everything would be fair and equel for all the other breeds so it would go back to what I stated before the better bloodlines, breeding program, keep, schooling, ect.

This is even funnier "Trust me the BT would Kill any PIT Bull hands down. Mine was at a dog park and some dumb ass brought in a pit bull. It attacked mine and my BT killed it by breaking its neck." Sounds like everyother fabricated, BS story I have heard. Its nice how they always choose the park for most. Any dog of any breed will never always beat a dog of another breed. Read about the Tosa vs. the APBT despite APBT usually barnstorming Tosas some have actually prevailed against the Pit Bull. Snapped its neck that a real joke, like it was mentioned that is one of the most flexible parts of anydog. Have you ever seen a match, it would surprise you the manuvers that are done with the head and neck and to the extent that it is. Also if you ever noticed Pit Bulls have very strong necks, naturally and couldn't easily be broke or shook. They also have loose skin on their necks and dewlaps, if a dog were to go for their neck they would only be able to grab the loose skin at most and go from their. That is what saved my Boxer from my 10 month old Pit Bull, the fact that she had so much loose skin. She was also twice his size, ployed into and punished her, he has a very hard bite and actually enjoyed adding the presure. But that doesn't mean anything, just because he can injure a curr and would have killed her. He went into her chest but switched hold to the throat/neck then back to the chest and I finally released him and treated her. He didn't have a scratch on him. This was an accident, but had it not been for her loose skin I think he would have hurt her bad, but that is what the skin is for protection, it was puntured bad, but she everything vital was kept safe. Not even small dogs necks are easy to snap, even dogs that are being shoke by APBT or other large breed. Even though the owners always belive for sure that is whats happening to fufu, its not. They could have a bad case of whip lash and a lot of soreness but their necks wouldn't be broken. SOME if the right action if applied and its a small dog could have neck problems/injuries but not broke necks and that would be a large dog on a smalle dog. When my APBT shook the neighbors black GSD the dogs head was flinging back and forth and I'm sure its had was rattled some, but his neck wasn't snapped.

Yet we have more "IF YOU PUT A APBT AGAINST SOMETHING LIKE A FILA, NEO, OR OTHER MOLOSSAR TYPE DOGS THE PITT WILL GET MAULED" Ok its PIT if you failed to realize. Please tell me how you came to this conclusion? Its not at all about size, when it comes to bulldogs it truly is the size of the fight IN the dog rather than the size of the dog in the fight. Those breeds are not much for fighting with other dogs, dogs that don't stop, dogs that punish, dogs that cripple. Those dogs are way oversized and that would be their disadvantage, not advantage. Larger isn't good, even if they are still pretty lean a larger dog would have to work longer the majority of the time. Its body would be over worked, dehydration would set in quicker and larger dogs tend to overheat faster even lean ones. Also they don't generally work a hold as thier line of work doesn't require that. They APBT would find a could hold and work it which would put the other dog working on trying to get them off. That is just a silly statement, I do pressume it does probably seem logical to someone unaware. However plain and simple its not true. Have you ever heard of the Swinford Bandogge. This dog was supposed to be the next, and greatest dog-on-dog combatent. Why becaue the Neo is larger and considered more powerful. But they are slow and all the other things mentioned about larger dogs. The Pit Bull is a bred fighter, and very agile. Combining these too dogs was supposed to bring the gameness and abilty of the Pit Bull with the strength and power of the Neo. Well hate to tell you but it didn't work. Even thought the guy was breeding them for this, even culling out those not showing a strong desire to fight. When the time came for true proving against the APBT the dogs failed out time and again. It didn't work with the pure Neos either. The only advantage they do have are their jowls and other loose skin. Put a good head dog on them and their done.

You are exactly right when you say the Fila is used to hunt, specialty for hunting large wild cats. And thats just it, WILD. Wild animals are totally different than domesticated animals, and Pit Bulls are different from other domesticated dogs. Wild animals fight for right to mate, they fight for territory, they fight for rank and they fight only when they must and hunt for food. When they have no where to run or believe the opposer is easy to take they will fight. However most animals will not fight to the death, they will either find a way out or die trying to get away. Many dogs of even non aggressive breeds have taken on and ran off wild cats. That is because the cats don't enjoy fighting its done because the feel threatened. Once the dog shows it has no fear or is going to loyally protect its family the cat makes a quick excape. Some dogs have died from wounds after protecting family members but that is besides the point because the cat doesn't stick around to kill the dog because it showed it had a little fight in it. Also the Fila does hunt and track these large cats, however it does not fight or attack them. It will hold them until the hunters come to subdue the animal. Which means it doesn't engage in a fight with the large animals. It is actually more of a tracking breed and isn't really that aggressive of a dog. Unless you are a person, these dogs don't do well with strangers and actually have a natural human aggression which is part of the standard. In the hunt the will scare the cat, confuse it and leave it no way out. Then the hunter shoots it. Not much work, they are really more of a tracking breed and protection breed. Research the breed, I've had a few conversations with a breeder of Filas. Wild animals are all about self preservation and will put themselves in as little danger as possible. Domesticated dogs are similar. They fight out of fear, dominance, ect. Some aggression if just a bluff and part of fight or flight, if they hope to never have to fight and scare off the other dog. Sometimes they will flee, other times they do engage in fighting. They may be loving it and into it but if the fight is not quickly one and the other dog is starting to dominant them they will quickly submit and run with tail tucked. however a Pit Bull is not this way and they have no thoughts of self preservation (some ruined dogs may), lets say the Pit Bull was actually getting beaten and was struggling to get ahead well sooner or later the other dog is going to begin to tire out, its not gonna understand why the other dog is still trying to fight back. This is when the Pit Bull will start to gain even more advantage with his foe unable to shake him and deter him from fighting. What do you think will happen then? The other dog has worn itself out all this time while the Pit Bull is still fresh and full of fire. This is even apparent in Pit vs Pit, you can have one aggressive Pit wearing himself with a good dog just keeping a hold on him. The other Pits gets hot, and gets exhuasted faster, an hour later he's not feeling so well using all his resources at the start when they were unecessary. The other dog will began to come back, an hour later or probably less the other dog is going to most likely quit. If it is a gamedog then maybe it won't even though it has exhuasted itself and the other dog is on top it still may try to come back and get a second wind and continue to fight. But then it may in the end be killed when it is at loss of energy or have to be picked up because it wasted itself out. Some bulldogs are like this, they are not preffered. Most are not, the best dogs are pit intellegent dogs and ones who fight with strategy and pace themselves. A talented pit artist can beat a barnstorming, dominant pit in a long match. If the pit artist is truly game and hangs in there with the other dog man handling it, it should come out on top after the other dog has burned up its resources.
PS they are called Mollosers with an E.

A dog can be ruined. If you have a young pup get loose and think it can tango with and adult dog and get nearly killed and can break its spirit, even make it fear other dogs. Some are lucky and are not effected at all. The worse are the ones who appear fine, but deep down are. You take them out and they seem to be doing well, then when they are in a tight spot during a hard test, they remember the feelings of being hear before and not ending up so good. They start looking for a way out and end up quitting in hopes of the other dog stopping its attack or try to make a getaway over the pit walls, they won't scratch for anything because they no longer want any part of it. I'm not sure if dogs have actual memories but they can be conditioned(just as people and other animals can be), and if last time they were being torn apart with a dog dominating them the outcome wasn't good it can have a serious effect on them. These are the ones who think of self preservation, they don't want to end up hurt again. Thats why its important for your young pup/dog not to get itself in a yard accident with an older veteran dog and get the crap torn out of it. That is why you also school the dog and teach it confidence, you start out with an easier dog. Get a good idea of if your dog likes it and appears to be enjoying himself. And never let the dog "loose" during these times. If things are getting too rough, it needs to be ended after the dog is allowed to scratch and prove he still wanted to give it a go. And you still need to make him feel like a winner. All this is besides the point but the way it works, this builds the confidence of the young dog, however many dogs may not even be schooled too much. Just put in a couple short rolls to acess its fight desire/ability and style, then be put through harder test.

Next their gonna say Great Paranese could beat any Pit Bull, or maybe a Ridgeback because took on Lions...lol How bout those Aikitas or maybe even those large Malamute dogs. Why not a Great Dane.

And FiGhTeR you are joking right? APBT ARE bred to fight and were bred to fight/bait bulls, and catch badgers. Gosh those rats sure are fierce cretures...lol. You are talking about the past anyway WERE MADE. Pit ARE.

 

Answer by the dogman
Submitted on 1/18/2004
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all you guys dont know what your tallking about if you did you know thay dont fight bt'sbecuse thay couldn't stand in the ring with a pit the bottom of the line is every dog that thay could think of was put up to a pit and none could beet a pit,do your home work.

 

Answer by the dogman
Submitted on 1/18/2004
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all you guys dont know what your tallking about if you did you know thay dont fight bt'sbecuse thay couldn't stand in the ring with a pit the bottom of the line is every dog that thay could think of was put up to a pit and none could beet a pit,do your home work.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/18/2004
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BULL TERRIERS FIGHT TO THE DEATH

 

Answer by cricket
Submitted on 1/18/2004
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Yeah, I guess you could say bull terriers fight to the death if they get killed. In that case, any dog that ever got killed in a fight fought to the death,Curr or not. And Tosa'sare fought on the bases that the first dog to cry or show signs of quitting losses. Tosa matches never end in death.

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 1/18/2004
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Look at this post by Alex. "I have owned a pitbull gamebred and ears cropped and everything" Entertaining at least.
How do you expect ANYONE to believe a word you are saying with dumbfounded statements such as that, seriously? So now you owned a gamebred pit bull. Really what bloodline? How and for how long were the parents tested? Can you furnish the match records. Don't come on here stating things you made up, there are actually intellegent people here. This is just ammusing and ironic. What does cropped ears have to do with gameness? They don't have to do with jack. The majority of Pit Bulls w/ cropeed ears are either show dogs or AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIERS, which are not the least bit game. And lets not forget all the pet bulls with cropped ears b/c the owner likes the look. You got to be joking. Most gamedogs have natural ears, most dogmen don't bother to crop. They don't care how a dogs ears look like show breeders or those AmStaffs who must for the AKC standard. A few dogman will crop SOME dogs ears if it too their liking. It can be a DISADVANTAGE and why disadvantage your dog? If a head dog in a match doesn't have ears to ride it may ride the nose & do severe, unrepairable damage, even cause death. If it is infact still an "ear sucker" and chooses to latch onto the spot where the ears should be this again can cause problems. Blood can go into the ear canal which can be dangerous, even cause infection, bring parasites, ect.
"so when i tested them i had to practically hit my 8 month old rott in the head with a shovel to get it off my game bred fighting pit which was 3 years old and a true fighter."
You had to practically, or you did hit him? If you had truly had a gamebred pit bull, (lol if this story if even partially true) you would have HAD to beat the Pit Bull to DEATH with the shovel and he still would have been latched onto the Rott in a deathgrip. You would need to pry his mouth open. This happens a lot, the only way to make them stop is to kill them but the dog/person attacked if still in the dogs grip. you really ruin your credibility with these things. If you knew anything about testing dogs you would know you need two people there and you would need a couple of these things called breaking sticks. They pry the dogs mouth open so you can release them. Nice contridictory too, A TRUE FIGHTER...lol. If he was a true fighter then how would the Rott be able to do anything to him at all. The dog would know what it was doing. Even if you were lied to and fooled into thinking you actually had a gamebred dog that still shows your lack of knowledge, a person who knows the dogs isn't going to be fooled into buying something thats not really what its supposed to be, or misrepresented as.

I don't even know if "female fighter" is really the most credible person either. Its great you realize the truth about gamebred dogs and that you can see these dogs enjoy what they do. On the other hand what is a freaking cure, wait I know a cure is whats used to better people from ailments and sickness. I think you mean cur or curr. And this statement "I would never trust small children around these dogs or any dog larger than themselves. Don't be fooled by their natural instinct to hunt, smaller prey." gesh. What are you trying to promote with the breed. That they are unstable/unpredictable. Let me make it clear, I trust my gamebred dogs more than anyother dogs. I was raised with these dogs, not once was I ever harmed. They loved me and didn't see me as prey. These dogs are very intellegent and are excellent with children. They are friendly to people, but know when they SHOULD protect you. They have great discretion. Let me tell you these dogs are some of the best dogs with children. They were once called the nanny dog, because of thier watch over and love of children. Petey the pup a GAMEBRED dog sired by Tudor's Black Jack a 16xw was one of the stars of the Little Rascals and those kids grew up with him. They were never in any danger, people who beleive these dogs are dangerous and untrustworthy around children don't know the breed. They are a very stable breed, aggressive dogs are culled from the breeding program.

Dogman that is very true they did pit Bull Terriers with Pit Bulls, and your right the Bull Terriers failed. This was a hypothetical question though asking IF the BT were gamebred like the Pit Bull. It would be a closer fight, but still i wonder?? Hard to say, maybe we should try Cairn Terriers because they love to catch rats. They might stand a chance...lol

 

Answer by jack
Submitted on 1/19/2004
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can anyone tell me if am -staffs are banned in the uk aswell?

 

Answer by brummy
Submitted on 1/19/2004
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my mate fought english mastiff with a pure mayfield gamebred pitbull, I was standing there. After 10mins that poor little pitbull was screaming his lungs out and trying to escape for his life. He was getting slapped all over the show. I felt so sorry for the pitbull that i forced them to stop the fight. 3months later as god is my witness, on my kids life a tri colour English bullterrier was matced into the same mastiff, I was invitid that little EBT shot into the mastiff. He grabbed the mastiff  by the foot. The bull was shaking at .8 on the Rictor scale. He had the foot for 10mins. The mastiff was trying to bite the bulls face. The fight lasted 25mins, The mastiff was running so fast no body in the unit could catch him. There is video footage somwhere. The English Bulls name is Cheeko. He lives in Walsall. What a dog, I do agree that pound 4 pound the american is formidable, But out of 100 EBT, 2 are old style. Can someone breed them like they were bred years ago (game) we can do it. It takes 6 years to restore EBT to the old standard. Im Gonna try from today. The shows have ruined our gladiator dog. God be with you

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/19/2004
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I MATED MY BT WID A LABRADOR AND I GOT A FIGHTER AND DEN WID A PITBULL! ITS A CHAMPION WAT DO U FINK BOUT THAT?!

 

Answer by cricket
Submitted on 1/19/2004
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Bull Terrier Lab mix, huh, thats what I call a mutt. Obviously, if the so called game pit quit against the mastiff, it wasnt game. "Duh". You guys mistake the terms game bred for an actual game dog. You can mate two great game dogs, but that doesnt mean their pups will be game. Just because that dog was from a game line doesnt make him as an individual game. NOTHING CAN BEAT A TRUE GAME PIT.

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 1/19/2004
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I think you got yourself a world class mutt. You went from supporting EBT to now having a CH Bull Terrier/Lab mutt....lol

Just because the dog is gamebred doesn't mean he himself is going to be game. Their is this thing called a CUR. Sometimes you get those and they must be culled! Yes we are talking about GAME Pit Bulls, NOT gamebred. Not all working dogs make the cut in any breeding program of any breed and are culled, From time to time their are Pit Bulls beaten by OTHER breeds of dogs. How do you know the dog was gamebred? I see a lot of pure mayfield and mayfield crosses that are no longer gamebred at all. A bulldog loosing a an English Mastiff is a disgrace, it certainly was a cur.
The dog Mongol King, beat many, many dogs in his time. Every dog put in front of him. Including the Chindos of Japan and a 137lbs Tosa. Too bad no one really knows wether or not he was game because he was never faced with another bulldog.

 

Answer by Vydas
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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An escaped hyena killed a couple of pitbulls quite easily. NOt saying they were gamebred, but the hyena killed them so quickly it would'treally have mattered if they had no quite in them. The first dog's head was nearly severed, and the second was killed by the hyena, even after an officer had shot it. Hyena's can chew through giraffes bones.

I bring this up because talking to a guy knowledgable about pits, he said that pit would kill a hyena easy in a fight. He still claims that they lost because they weren't game. I don't see how being "game" matters when your head is lying next to your body before you can even get in a bite.

 

Answer by benny boy
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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hyena? how much did it weigh? probably a hell of alot more than the pit, if they were evenly matched i would put my money on the pit. if you match a much smaller dog against a much larger dog yes it will lose sometimes. the apbt is the best fighting dog.

 

Answer by cricket
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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Well hell, hyena's are well over 100 lbs, and are wild animals. They also have some of the strongest jaws in the world, second only to alligators and crocs. They have even been known to kill lions. I'll bet my money that a hyena would kill the best, baddest, most game pit that ever lived. But if the pit fought to his last breath how could you not respect that? How could you say he was,nt game? Most other animals, in general retreat when faced with a losing situation.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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HAS EVRY1 4GOTEN BOUT DOGOS ANATOLIAN SHEPERDS KANGALS OR DNT U NO ABOUT THEM

 

Answer by jack
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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wot r  they like just done a search on google n nothing came up!

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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What about the Anatolians and Kangals. Let me guess you have one and its a GR CH fighting dog...lol. My mom happens to be really into Anatolians, they are actually a very good guard/protection dog when raised with people. People become their flock.
They are both a herding breed and protective. They protect the flock from theives and sometimes from predators. Which these usually run off in a threatening matter other times they wouldn't hesitate to die for the flock if necessary. They herd the sheep and keep them together. As thats what herding dogs do. Also they don't like strangers. So why did you mention them again?

 

Answer by daddyfs
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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wow, this thread was probably some of the funniest material i ever read.. when someone said they had a game pitbull ears cropped and all... that was the funniest... i guess the ears bein cropped transformed the dog into game.. lol.. Im glad true_pits came on here and schooled yall.. lol.. and yes a hyena can whip a pit.. and a elephant can whip that.. whats the fukin point??

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 1/20/2004
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And thats a nice story, how the Hyena just happened to come along and find two Pit Bulls. Of course the hyena could kill any domesticated dog. Lions can kill Hyenas and most Hyenas are for strength in numbers, same for Lion though too.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/21/2004
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ANATOIANS FOUGHT LIONS DURIN WARS 4 TURKEY!!! WEN ROMANS BIUGHT LIONS TURK BOUGHT DOGS AND OCAASIONALY DEY WUD HAV LIONS

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 1/21/2004
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FiGhTeR are you writing in some kind of code or something that needs to be deciphered?

So what is your point exactly? Other breeds were also used in ANCIENT times to fight Lions among other things. By the way Lions don't like to fight and don't do it well. A Lion will fight for rank and one of the Lions submits fairly quickly. When male Lion cubz mature they have a spat with the father and are usually run off, as Lions do b/c they don't like to fight and possibly die or get a serious injury, so the male Lion runs off to make its own pride. Lions can kill Hyenas and Hyenas can kill a lone Lion. Both go for weaker prey when hunting and something they know they can overtake.

Anatolians WERE used in wars and as a hunter a LONG time ago and then were turned into the guard/herding dog they are today. They are a very rugged breed and really put their all into their work and can survive bad working environments.

Ridgebacks went against Lions. And that is RIDGEBACKS in PACKS, and many times they could run the Lion off rather than kill it, even if they did engage in combat the Lion would try to make a get away as that is the nature of animals. They are actually a very cool and durable breed. Patterdale Terrier were used against foxes and badgers, or raccoons. Dachshunds were another breed used to hunt badgers and foxes. I guess there is really no point to this history but I thought why not add something to what has turned into a breed history thread, and maybe something that people can actually read.

 

Answer by THE TRUTH
Submitted on 1/22/2004
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FIRST OF ALL WHERE I COME FROM WE DONT FORCE THE DOGS TO FIGHT IF THAY WANT TO WE LET IF NOT THE ONE THAT DOSENT WANT TO GO IS THE LOOSER,AND I HAVE SEEN A ENGLISH BULL TERRIER FIGHT A PITBULL AND THE PITBULL WON IN 7 MINTES AFTER THE ENGLISH BULL TERRIER WENT OUT THE RING I HAVE SEEN ROTTYS FIGHT PITBULLS AND HVAE DONE THE SAME THING SO YOU SEE JUST BECUSE YOUR DOGS DOSNT LIKE UTHER DOGS AND ITS REAL TUFF DOSNT MEAN IT WELL BEAT EVERY BREED THE ENGLISH BULL TERRIER IS JUST NOT GAME ENOUGH AND NETHER IS A ROTTY A PITBULL WELL FIGHT TO THE DEATH IF YOU LET IT BECUSE THATS WHAT THAY WHERE BRED FOR NOT TO STOP FOR ANY THING

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/22/2004
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r u dum bullterriers fite 2 da deth THE TRUTH

 

Answer by the answer
Submitted on 1/23/2004
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ok you want to know if the the breed english bull terrier is game bred the answer is no same for the pitbull the breed pitbull is not game bred but  a dog can be game breed not a breed. game bred means that thay should be good game dogs game bred can mean a lot of things like it mite be bred for hog hunnting thats game bred but any way thay have to diffrent types of pitbulls thay have show pits and game bred pits if you could find a game bred bull terrier and matched it to a pitbull it would be close a bt and a pit are allmost the same thing bts come from a bull dog and terrier and so do pitbulls so nether one is better then the uther whene it come down to thes two dogs its 50 50

 

Answer by BADMAN
Submitted on 1/23/2004
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FORGET THE BLOODY DOGS, LETS ALL MEET SOMEWHERE AND HAVE A BIG HEAD BREAKER, FA KIN HYENAS AND CALABASH'S.YOU BUNCH OF WILLY WANKS

 

Answer by up man
Submitted on 1/24/2004
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i heard you could make up to 100,000 dollers in a match how can i do this

 

Answer by conducter
Submitted on 1/24/2004
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wat dog to u hav up man

 

Answer by cricket
Submitted on 1/24/2004
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I'll box with you anyday Badman. You must be some kinda coward or somethin sittin up here makin internet threats. Knowing good and well that there is a very low chance that you will ever actually come in contact with these people. Go play with yourself.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/24/2004
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XACTLY CRIKET ACTUALLY TALKS SENSE UR JUS DUM BADMAN WNNABE

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/24/2004
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BULLY KUTTA R NANG FITIN DOGS DO U NO BOUT DEM

 

Answer by Tell me what you think
Submitted on 1/25/2004
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I think the world toughest dogs are:
bull terriers, pitbulls, rottweilers, dogue de bordeux,Akitas,tosas,Presa canario, some chow chow's, boxers, saint bernards, dobermans and german shepherds. Imagine if they breed all these into one dog. Why dont all of you tell me some touph dogs i havent mentioned or just what you think the touphest dogs are.

 

Answer by cricket
Submitted on 1/26/2004
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I think that would be horrible if you bred all these dogs into one. I think you would end up with an unstable ugly phsyco dog.

 

Answer by kel
Submitted on 1/28/2004
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I have a EB terrier i have bought him up not to fight, but the times he has (other owners faults) he has whipped two x APBTerriers and had his arse kicked twice by rotties, they were to big.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/28/2004
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KEL U MUST B DUM HOW CAN AN ENGLISH BT BEAT A PITBULL AND LOSE TO A ROTTI UVE REALLI GOT A ROTTI!!! U SHUD HAV THOUGHT OF SUMIN BETA!!

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 1/30/2004
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sum1 rite back

 

Answer by Behm's Bullies and Bengals
Submitted on 1/31/2004
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Human beings who desire to observe the cruel and inhumane blood sport of dogfighting are simply put, sad individuals.  It is widely believed by psychologists that these self proclaimed "dog men" are often using these dogs to fill a void of self-weakness and insecurity found in themselves.  Emotionally stable and mentally healthy grown men and women, do not feel the need to live vicariously through a successful fighting dog, and would not put two loving animals in a pit to destroy each other.  

To think that there are people who truly believe that these dogs enjoy their life as a fighting dog, is absolutely preposterous.
The fact that these dogs instinctively bear the possibility of being dog aggressive, or have the "urge" to fight, does not mean that the dogs enjoy the fight.  This "urge" was bred into these dogs through careful breeding programs by man.  These dogs do not enjoy ripping each other apart!    

The APB T's incredible loyalty, and remarkable eagerness to please is exploited by these "dog men" (if you want to call them men).
Due to this despicable exploitation of these qualities, their greatest strengths of character then, sadly, also become the dogs greatness weaknesses.  

 

Answer by Truth
Submitted on 1/31/2004
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I have never seen anybody (too stupid or too rich) to ever show up for a real money "weight pull" with anything other than a fastlane APBT.  

If you got a lot of money,(10K+)and no real understanding of "weight pulling", you can bring ANY dog/hyena/wolf/wolverine, hell anything resembling a canine, to your local "real" dogman who will gladly relieve you of your money and your "pet".

Any quality, APBT (+57lb >65lbs)campaigned by quality "weight pullers" is exactly as advertised, "OPEN TO THE WORLD"

If you never have seen a "real" weightpull by real "fastlane" pits, you will always believe another canine stands a chance.
Once you do though, you will UNDERSTAND!!

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 2/3/2004
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no hav u

 

Answer by barney
Submitted on 2/5/2004
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fighter you r a retard!!!

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 2/5/2004
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AT LEEST I AINT CALLED BARNEY

 

Answer by barney
Submitted on 2/8/2004
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fighter how old r u 12? my kid has more brains than you

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 2/9/2004
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ERRRR NOOOOOOO I BET U AINT EVEN SEEN A DOG FIGHT RIGHT IN FRONT OF U. U JUST CLIK ON GOOGLE AND WRITE IN DOG FIGHTING VIDEO DNT U!!! HUH GO ON TELL ME U DNT KOZ I CAN TELL! BARNEY  LOLOLOL
BARNEY

 

Answer by Brooklyn2real
Submitted on 2/9/2004
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first ofF can a BULL TERRIER BEAT A APBT=HELLS NOOOOO....SECOND ROTTIES WOULD DESTORY A BULL TERRIER. FOR THE VET TECH... THE JAPANESE MASTIFF IS THE PIT BULLS ONLY COMPETITION. AN AMERICAN BULLDOG STANDARD TYPE WOULD BEAT A ENGLISH BULL TERRIER. BULL TERRIERS IS THE WORST FIGHTING BREED BAD ENOUGH THEY ARE UGLY. THEY HAVE NO GAME.

 

Answer by Damian
Submitted on 2/9/2004
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First off "Brooklyn2real" you are correct, most Bull Terriers would be no match for most APB T's.  However, a Rott does not stand a chance against a Bully, no contest, period.  If you knew how Bullies fight and how Rottsfight, you'd know this.  If you don't know this, if you ever see these dogs matched, you'll find out very quickly.  As far as the Tosa being the only competition for an APBT, not quite bud, they have a completely different fighting style, and the APBT will come out the victor 99% of the time.  The only real competition an APBT has is another APBT.  Let me say that no breed will always be able to defeat another breed, that there are always exceptions to the rule and this applies to my statements as well.  Lastly, let me further touch on another aspect of your dogfighting experience, or lack thereof rather.  The American Bulldog is NOT a fighter.  Again, if you had any experience, you'd know this as well.  An American Bulldog would beat most Rotts, but not an APBT or Bull Terrier.  But then, Rottsand American Bull's are not in the same league as Bullies and APB T's and should not be matched because it is just unfair.  Terrier blood makes all the difference in the world, making them more agile and tenacious among many other attributes.  There is a common misconception that Bullies are not good fighters, but the fact is, this couldn't be any further from the truth.  It is true that the dog did not live up to Hinks' expectations in its earliest days, but this was before the breed was refined both physically and temperamentally into what was referred to by many of the most revered dogmen as "The ultimate fighting dog."  

The APBT is the definitely the most capable pit fighter today.  As far as the Bull Terrier goes, don't put your money on any dog matched against a Bully, but an APBT or an Am Staff, because besides them, there is no other dog capable of handing the Bully a loss in the pit.  Once again, this is not news to anyone with any experience in this sport, it is common knowledge.  

 

Answer by Washington
Submitted on 2/9/2004
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I can't believe I even made it to the bottom of the page (of course skipping a few of the longer postings).  Do you people seriously think that dogs ENJOY the "sport" of dog fighting? Idiots!  If that were the case, you wouldn't have to train them to do it!  I guess when you're a 98 pound loser yourself it makes you feel manly to have a "tough" dog.  I think its pathetic.

 

Answer by cannan
Submitted on 2/9/2004
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how can i teach my pitt 2 have courage he is afraid of somethings that r bigger than himun less i yell at him 2 go handle it .
how can i make him have more gamness and more built

 

Answer by Brooklyn2real
Submitted on 2/10/2004
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ON TRUTH POUND FOR POUND THE PITBULL WITH NO QUESTION IS THE BEST BREED. I would have to disagree on the american STAFF PART BECAUSE THE FAMOUS JAPANESE KENNEL IT START WITH A T...I FORGOT ITS NAME...ANYWAY SAID ALL THEY USE IN JAPAN ARE JAPANESE MASTIFFS AND APBT'SAND NO OTHER BREED EVER CAME CLOSE ON BEATING THEM...NOT ALL JAPANESE MASTIFFS WILL LOSE NO DAMN 99 PERCENT OF THE TIME BECAUSE ALL THOSE OTHER STORIES ABOUT IN PAKASTAIN AND ALL THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES HOLDING DOG FIGHT TOURNAMENTS WITNESS THAT A TOSA RIPPING A PIT BULLS EYES AND HURTING IT...AND A FEMALE PIT-BULL BEATING 2 TOSA AT THE SAME TIME SO DON'T COME AT ME WITH THAT 99 PERCENT OF THE TIME I WOULD HAVE TO SAY 70 THE MOST. AND THE WAY YOU TALKING ABOUT THE ENGLISH BULL TERRIER LIKE THEY MAKE NUMBERS IN THE RING...ITS THE WORST FIGHTING DOG AND YOU CAN'T REALLY SAY AN AMERICAN BULLDOGS ARE THIS OR THAT BECAUSE THERE ARE GOOD STANDARD TYPES THAT CAN BEAT ALOT OF BREEDS..A DAMN CAU DE BAO IF I SAID THE BREED NAME RIGHT CAN BEAT A ENGLISH BULL TERRIER..AND AS FOR AM.STAFF THEY ARE NOTHING BUT SHOW DOGS. A STAFFORD BULL TERRIER WOULD BEAT BOTH THE ENGLISH AND AMERICAN STAFF...SO TO ME YOU ARE TALKING OUT WHAT PEOPLE IS TELLING YOU.

 

Answer by Charles Turner
Submitted on 2/10/2004
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About 90% of the people this forum are complete fools with serious attitude problems and social issues. What impression are you trying to project by discussing this issue? Do you think these discussions make you appear superior, face it in reality you are just hiding behind your dogs, obviously you all have size / strength complexes about yourself, the majority of you are probably horizontally challenged with problem childhoods and a serious lack of a proper upbringing.

There’s then about 5% of you  who are obviously sadly but genuinely involved in dog fighting, you seem to appear quite knowledgeable but obviously are not in any way intelligent  or otherwise they would not be involved  and would condemn this sort of activity.

I am from London in the U.K and own a one year old English bull terrier, she is a fantastic dog, loyal and loving and I love her dearly. People in the UK, particularly gypsies steal family pets like the Bull Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier to train and breed to fight so idiots like you can enjoy and gamble on, so people like you are also to blame for this serious anti-social problem.

The other 5% are like me and are ferverently against any form of animal cruelty and I applaud them. Some have also correctly stated that Hinks bred the BT originally to fight but this was in the early 19th century. Time moves on and with it the barbaric activity has been made illegal and rightly so.

One day the law will catch up with you and scum like you will get your come-uppance. You should be ashamed of yourself instead of gloating and preening yourselves on the abilities and prowess of you pets you should be commenting on the love and companionship they can give you…………..

Charles Turner
London
England    

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 2/10/2004
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BROOKLYN U R THE DUMEST TING I HAV EVA SEEN!!!!! HOW CAN U FINK BULL TERRIERS R OVER RATED AND WE HEAR DIS 4RM EAR TO EAR OR WATEVA!!!! HELLLLOOOOOO BTS R UNDERATED IF NETHIN U JUS HAV A ROTTI AND A STAFF AND DATS Y U R BIGIN DEM UP U FOOL. DUS NEBODY ACTUALLY FINK THAT A ROTTI CAN BEAT A BULL TERRIER!! SIZE MEANS JAK AND U R DUM END OF STORY JUST THE HEART AND COURAGE OF THE BT IS AMAZING NOT INCLUDIN ITS LOK JAW AND MASSIVE HED!! AND A FITIN DOG DUS NOT HAV TO B GOOD LOOKIN!! LEMME ASK A QUESTION!!IN A DOG FIGHT WAT HURTS THE TEETH OR SIZE?? TEEEETH BUT BROOKLYN OVIERSELY DUS NOT UNDERSTAND THAT AS HE IS DUM!!

 

Answer by Damian
Submitted on 2/11/2004
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Brooklyn, it is obvious that not only are you a new comer, but you are a new comer to the street.  If you are serious about wanting to excel as an upper echelon in this sport, keep your mouth shut and your ears open, and talk to the big boys in your neighborhood.  You will learn a lot on the street, but you will also grow to underestimate certain breeds if you are not careful, and you could end up having to find you a new scrapper (just hope it isn't your first money dog) because you heard that no BT could defeat an APBT (although a well trained, and bred APBT will prevail a lot of times.)  Remember to stay open-minded.  
On the street it is extremely rare to see any good BT'sor Am Staffs matched, if any at all.  The street consists of mostly APBT's APBT crosses, and occasionally a stolen Rott or Dobe, which when are matched against an APBT or BT it is more like a roll than a match, not lasting very long at all, and even the grittiest of dogmen can feel enormous sympathy for the out classed Rott, Dobe, Boxer, or pet bull.  Also, most all of the APBT'smatched on the street will be under nourished and ill tempered.  
It is obvious that this is the level you match at, or spectate at, which is nothing to be ashamed of, we all start somewhere.  Had you more distinguished experience you would have seen some very devastating Am Staffs and BT'sat some point or another.  To say that Am Staff's are "nothing but show dogs" proves your lack of knowledge.  This is another common misconception that is common at street level.  The Am Staff is just as capable as ANY fighting dog, but it was not bred strictly for gameness, like the APBT was, but rather for its looks.  An Am Staff that did not fit the exact standard in appearance was removed from the breeding program.  With the APBT, even if the dog didn't fit the appearance standard, if it was exceptionally game, it was used for breeding, simply because gameness took precedence over appearance.  Now, this does not mean that because the Am Staff was bred for looks that they are not game.  The first time you see an Am Staff or BT scratch 7 or 8 times in a match with an APBT, you will realize fast that a BT or Am Staff can be just as game as an APBT.  
If you do stay in this sport for some time, you WILL eventually see an Am Staff or BT grand champ at some point, and your respect for these breeds will be born.  

As far as the Majorcan Presa is concerned, again, this dog has a completely different fighting style as a APBT, Am Staff, Staff BT, or BT, and it would be unfair to match these dogs.  In other words, the Majorcan Presa or "Ca de Bou" would be no match for the sharp, agile, tenacious and incredibly powerful Bull Terrier.  

 

Answer by dog lover
Submitted on 2/11/2004
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i am from england and i think that all of you who support dog fighting of any shape or form are a complete bunch of wankers! All i can read here are completely ridiculous statements about the dogs enjoying fighting and their lives doing so! Yeah right dream on! And boasting of their dogs breaking other dogs necks well, i hope they break yours! And those of you who claim to love their dogs but still fight them, well, i hope you feel very proud of yourselves when your dogs dies a long and painfull death, because nothing is unbeatable, if you really have such a lust for blood, fight each other and then give normal humane people something to cheer about! By the way, i own a 5 yo english bull terrier and he is terrific, a completely 100% affectionate dog who lives happily alongside children, 2 cats and another dog!

 

Answer by True_pits
Submitted on 2/11/2004
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WASHINGTON Your the idiot, you speak about a breed of dog you don't know about, try reading a book or two or better yet getting hands on experience. Guess what genius you don't have to train the dogs to do nothing, they are gamebred dogs..a duh? How smart are you, its people like you and your stupid misconceptions that hurt the breed the most. A "tough" dog, maybe we should just execute them all and all the other breeds ignorant a**holes consider "tough" just because jerks get their hands on them. you don't have to train dogs to do things they are bred to do, that goes for any breed. You don't even have general dog knowledge but a stupid meaningless opinion. You don't train dogs to want to heard, want to hunt, want to protect, want to pull, ect...the dogs you do well they would be culled and never bred. Why don't you check this link out
http://www.auspet.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000105.html See what your ignorance causes. The last thing this pet owner wanted was her dogs to try and kill one another, the last thing they needed was a Pit Bull, but heck they thought they only fight when trained to, wonder where they heard that stupid line. Its IDIOTS like you spreading your ignorant lies that are detroying the breed and causing people's pets to die, because someone told them they would have to train the dog to be that way.

Hey CANNAN you are about as dumb as they come, you can't teach gameness you dumba**. The dog either has it or is don't. Where did you get your dog from, out of the paper? Oh you found it? Or stole somebody's pet? Your friend gave it to you? What bloodline is it? Don't get anything other than a gamebred dog if you want a gamedog, thats  simple. Its as simply as don't get a German Shepherd out of the paper or for free if you want a show dog, and don't buy a showbred German Shepherd Dog if you want a dog to use in personal protection sports....lol Either give the dog away as a pet or put it down. Then read some books and realize how dumb a question that was. And talk to some real breeders with real dogs and learn something, then get a real dog. Build has nothing to do with a dogs gameness, so why worry about it. Don't get a show dog for a gamedog...lmao.



DAMIAN you seem to know a thing or two yourself, but I still disagree with a lot of the junk you said. Brooklyn2real obvious isn't well versed in the APBTs or any breed, I agree with you there.

"You will learn a lot on the street" Yeah a lotta of sh*t.
"On the street it is extremely rare to see any good BT'sor Am Staffs matched, if any at all."
It is rare to see them period. BTs are no longer used in the pit, they are show dogs and pets. There are only a few strains that actual people use in sport, and many times its not the sport of pit fighting, but a form of catch. And you won't see these dogs advertised everywhere, the breeders keep the dogs they breed.
Thats because AmStaffs are show dogs. Dogmen don't own or breed AmStaffs. They don't bother with anything else than FULL BLOODED-GAMEBRED-APBTS. They are show dogs and thats it. Very few are used in any form of work, some have been used as cattle herding dogs. There are of course exceptions, but thats 1 in a million. Gameness is very easily lost in the breed, that is why it is so extremely important to cull, let alone use a version of the Pit Bull that hasn't had any form of testing and no culling of curs since they have been created and bred as a show dog.
"The street consists of mostly APBT's APBT crosses, and occasionally a stolen Rott or Dobe, which when are matched against an APBT or BT it is more like a roll than a match, not lasting very long at all,"
Exactly because it is just a roll, only a true idiot considers that a match. Although those people do call it a match, brag about how their APBT whipped a cur..lol..that is some funny sh*t. Even pet bulls that are BYB pet dogs have greatly injured or even killed rotts, dobies that belong to neighbors, or even the owners own dogs killed by their pet bull that never showed any aggression. Like in the link above.  
"and even the grittiest of dogmen can feel enormous sympathy for the out classed Rott, Dobe, Boxer, or pet bull"
Dogmen don't feel this way because dogmen don't match into those breeds, it is cruel, a waste of time and not a match at all. It is letting your dog kill or harm another dog. It also can teach your dog some pretty bad habits depending on when and how you do it. There are occasions when dogmen waste other breeds of dogs, those are when they are teaching some idiot a lesson about their curs whether that be because they are running their mouth or because they let their dog kill peoples pets. And in the case of Tosa Inus those are supposed to be other fighting dogs and doggers don't find it wrong to see how they fair with one another. Same with swinford bandogges, they were created to supposedly end the Pit Bulls reign as supreme fighter, so they had to be proved wrong. Who ever would fight a Boxer is got to be one of the most uuneducated, low class dummies I have ever heard of. Boxers are not good fighters, they have the tiniest teeth, and usually don't use them except in defense, they box with their front feet. Like I mentioned before the only thing that saved my Boxer from my 10 month old Pit Bull puppy was her loose skin, poor girl I know. But he started out of nowhere, she was a female and even though he didn't like other male Pit Dogs he still was cool with her. Until that day he ran across the room, it was very unexpected.
"Also, most all of the APBT'smatched on the street will be under nourished and ill tempered."
You are totally correct, I would like to add that most all of them are worthless currs when it comes to real matches, with real game dogs.
"It is obvious that this is the level you match at, or spectate at, which is nothing to be ashamed of, we all start somewhere"
It is more than something to be ashamed of. Thanks for ruining the breed you D*ck. Lol that is funny, where you start is by researching and learning all you can. By buying or being given a gamebred APBT that is meant to be a pit dog. You start by talking to respectable dogmen that know what they are talking about and letting them be your mentor. And you take care of your dog and if it makes a good match dog you match it into other APBTs, if it ends up being a cur you cull it and start over.
"To say that Am Staff's are "nothing but show dogs" proves your lack of knowledge. This is another common misconception that is common at street level. The Am Staff is just as capable as ANY fighting dog, but it was not bred strictly for gameness, like the APBT was, but rather for its looks."
At the street level...lol. You'd be surprised at the street level is where many people are fighting AmStaffs and crosses of AmStaff/APBTs and every other thing under the sun. They fight AmStaffs with their CUR pit bulls. If it doesn't have gameness then it is not at all capable against the real APBT. Not breeding for gameness means you loose it. How hard is it to understand, when you start breeding a dog for looks it looses its preformance ability and very important drives. There are only very rare, exceptional cases where a show version of a breed is capable of doing the work the preformance version of the breed does. So you just trapped yourself it was bred for looks not gameness, so after MANY YEARS of not breeding for gameness how to you expect them to have any? These dogs may look like they can do the job, but don't have the drives for it. That is any breed, ands it actually pretty rare to even see a show version that compliments the work version, most have structures that would destract from its ability. The same thing goes for paper breeders so watch out. Some people breed for pretty papers without testing and pups bought from them, some make it many don't. Because they are breeding curs that have never were made to show what they were, others do have game dogs that they never bothered to prove, so its a gamble. Its best to learn about the gameness of the dogs your pup comes from rather than looking at the papers.

 

Answer by Cricket
Submitted on 2/12/2004
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Looks like you beat me to it True Pits. If you guys would have read the board, you would know that all this crap has already been covered, you guys are just repeating the same bulls**t that other idiots said. Im going to put it like this, quite pretending like you guys know what you are talking about, cause I see maybe 3 people that kinda know what they are talking about. Everybody else, just enjoy your "pets", and dont get them fu**ed up messin with REAL PITS.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 2/12/2004
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1 OF DEM PPL BEST B ME KOZ I TOOK MA BT TO DA RING AND HE WON!!

 

Answer by masiv
Submitted on 2/16/2004
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against pits,rotts would probably get the upper hand at first because of its size and strenght. But after a few minutes, the gameness and resilience of a well trained pit will overcome the rott or any other dog breed. Hype or no-hype pitbulls are still the best fighters.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 2/17/2004
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WAT WAS UR POINT??

 

Answer by Dave
Submitted on 2/18/2004
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Oh dear, what a bunch of inbred losers.  Your views are abhorrent, people like you  shouldn't be allowed to keep dogs. Why don't you do the world a favour and get in a fighting ring and rip each others throats out.

 

Answer by guy
Submitted on 2/19/2004
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we have a english bull terreier he is lovely softas anything but ive seen him when another dog has attacked him(boxer) he put him tthe floor and showed his teeth no dog messes with bull terrier but they are so soft and loyal to a family just give them respect

 

Answer by argentino
Submitted on 2/20/2004
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I have seen EBT beat dogo argentino many times. Here are used no specific breed, but dogo argentino is the most common one. Also the "perro de pelea cordobes" which means "cordobes fightin dog" (cordoba is a province of argentina). The reason of using the dogo argentino is its price. Its very cheap. But every time I've seen matching a BT, the BT won. Even it's much smaller. The same with APBT. I thing that they are in the same level. Sorry for my english if not correct.

 

Answer by gripper
Submitted on 2/20/2004
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i think that the ebt is by far the best dog cause it is heavier built and stronger than the rest why do you think they called it the gladitor and as 4 rots they are just for show and are 4 people who want to try and act hard

 

Answer by gripper
Submitted on 2/20/2004
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american people think that they have the best fighting dog in the world (APBT).
but how can this be said as the PBT was produced by crossing english dogs with other dog breeds so i say us brits have the best dogs going has we had the orginal bull terriers.

 

Answer by The moron police
Submitted on 2/21/2004
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"...as 4 rots they are just for show and are 4 people who want to try and act hard."
                                 Gripper

LOL, for people who want to try and act hard huh?  You are a bright one.  Rottweilers are for people who admire the breed for what it is.  Some acquire Rotties for home protection, some for just an intelligent and noble companion.  I am sure that some sad insecure weaklings own a Rottweiler to make up for their sad selves, but to categorize or stereo-type Rottweiler owners as "people who are trying to act hard" is not only ridiculous, but extremely laughable.  Most people who live vicariously through their dogs, or "try and act hard" (still trying to make sense of that doozy of a concept) usually do so through an APBT, as it is widely known to be the most capable fighting dog.  It would seem to me that people who are so emotionally unstable that they feel the need to own a powerful dog would want the "toughest" dog.  It is evident that there are many sad individuals in this Q and A who own "Pit Bulls" (APBT, Am Staff, Staff BT, EBT) for this reason, so give us some insight on your warped reasons for owning a Pit, will ya?

 

Answer by THE MAN
Submitted on 2/22/2004
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all u people suck and have no clue of what yall are talkin about

 

Answer by argentino
Submitted on 2/22/2004
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Each part of the world has game bred dogs. Here, how I said before, the argentine dogo is usually game bred. But it is also crossed with EBT or APBT. So you can see fighting dogs that are not any recognizable breed. But EBT and APBT are also present. Any of these may win.
Answering the question at the beggining, my answer is YES, a EBT can match an APBT. I can understand that american people say its the best fightin dog. They do so because its an american breed, but the EBT has all the anatomy and fire enough to fight. Also de Staffordshire. Also any crosses between them. I win say one thing to TRUE_PITS: yes, the APBT is a great fighting dog. Maybe the best where you live. But dont speak for all. The APBT is not a different specie. Its a breed. And there are some breeds that are very similar in anatomy and fire. Basically all the "bull and terrier" crosses. Its also true that the EBT that I usually see is a bit long leged and slimer than the "show" ones. Of course, the have not a great pedigree, they are just game bred.

 

Answer by Lalla
Submitted on 2/23/2004
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I think people that fight dogs are a bunch of cowards! Why don't you get a life - if you think a sport like dog fighting is cool or fun then you have no respect for animals. I have 3 English bullies at the moment and I have never come accross a better breed before. I have had staffies and amstaffs before but none of them compare. The bullies love my kids. I think it is people like you that gives bull terriers a bad name.

Go to Hell

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 2/24/2004
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the question is not a reasonable one.  bt vs apbt, two different breeds, two different reasons to be alive.  the bt excelled as a ratter and as a fashion statement.  today it is bred to be a pet.  unfortunately most apbt owned by the people who make thier thoughts known here are of inferior quality.  the question will be better answered if put in a more direct form: can a dog bred to look cool and kill rats compete with a dog bred to fight dogs? obviously no!  then one might say what if it was a really really game ratter?  still no.  what if it once beat a dog in a fight?  sorry still no.  but what if..... and on and on.  people come on.  the apbt is only here today because of its fighting abillity.  it is 100% through and through a dog fighter.  it is in the blood and no matter how others try they cannot compete with 150+ years of genetic predisposition to dominate a canine opponent.  as for those who say that the apbt came from english stalk, your right. so did america i suppose you would like to take credit for our country as well as our dogs.  don't blame you they are both the best the world has ever seen.  when it comes to those who fight dogs in the street, or in parks, or down the alley with a lookout in case a cop drives into view, and then say you have a game dog?! that is the same as calling a neiborhood bully a real game boxer and putting him in the same league as tyson, ali,and jones.  you play an inferior game with inferior dogs.  its not your fault most people will never have the oppertunity to even brush shoulders with a real dogman much less a truly game apbt.  as for hype how could you over hype the last true warrior/gladiator of the canine race.  its funny but no matter how tuff someones dog is they can only earn respect by beating an apbt.  all comparisons in regard to fighting are made to the apbt.  people who are expert in canine combat would gladly except a new contender for top dog.  for now though there are none, none who can truly compete with the apbt in the sport of dog fighting.    

 

Answer by dogo
Submitted on 2/24/2004
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i think the english bull terrier is by far the best dog coz it gets the neck shacks it and dont lit go intill the other dog is dead they fight till yhe death

 

Answer by argentino
Submitted on 2/24/2004
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To black-powder-bob: You are probably right, but talking about YOUR experience. Why don you take a look to game dogs here in Argentina? EBT was always game bred here, also APBT and "perro de pelea cordobes"(similar to dogo argentino). Maybe you dont know that because Argentina and south america is UNKNOWN for mostly the whole world.
But when you say that APBT is the ONLY dog game bred, how can you be so sure? At least say that where you live it is like that.
Again, here, you can see mostly APBT, but also EBT and "perro de pelea cordobes". I dont know what would happen if one of our dogs match one of your APBT. Maybe yours are better. Its probable, because of the number of dogs bred. The selection occurs on a bigger population, so, the genetic gain is greater.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 2/24/2004
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argentino- i have not seen what i would consider a good bull terrier for a long time.  i was in new york manhatten when i bumped into a lady with a black and white bull terrier male.  he was less extreeme had good movement and by the way he kept his eye on her a good sense of responsibillity.  he was an impressive animal.  he unfortunately is also the exception to the rule.  the bullies bred today are generally not working dogs.  they look nice but have lost their heads and thier hearts, compartively speaking.  if you are breeding game dogs in argentina i am truly gratefull.  i wish more people cared about this breeds heritage.  i really do love and respect the bully.  i believe it is a stretch to say that a bully can consistently compete with an apbt in the pit.  you are dealing with a genetically inferior animal which was proven inferior shortly after it was created.  no matter how deeply or specifically or for how many generations you work that blood it is still genetically incapable of creating a better pit fighter than the apbt.  the apbt has in its blood the unprecedented winners geenes.  red star kennel in germany worked for the natzi'sand created the black russian terrier.  it was believed that a dog if taght how to perform a certain task for generations would eventually become more able through the breeding to perform said task.  all experiments failed and it was determined that a dogs blood must contain the gene which predisposes it to be successfull at said task.  once the geene or trait is found and isolated it can be bred for but it is impossible to add a trait to the blood through external means.  the bully is an awesome dog.  i wish there were more with the original true charachter traits.  that said the bull terrier does not contain the genetic makeup to allow it to be consistently superior in the pit over the apbt.  as for you breeding game bullies, i would love to own one.      

 

Answer by black- powder-bob
Submitted on 2/24/2004
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my apologies i was careless with my information about red star kennel and its german connection.  the results of this kennels genetic work are however accurately summarized above.  red star is a translation of the russian kennel title.  this kennel is not known to exist today.  it was around during the days of WW11.  my comments are not meant to have any association with either the black russian terrier as it exists today or any existing kennels who have similar names.

 

Answer by ###Lucas###
Submitted on 2/25/2004
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Yo listen up i live in Bradford England and i really want any kind of game brad dog how can i get one

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 2/27/2004
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black-powder-bob, Ok. I agree. I realize that the level of game dogs here is not as good as what you've got there. About the gene, the EBT had fixed that gene during its creation, and during the last decades mutation may have occured and lost it. But it doesnt mean that it's lost in the whole pupulation. What I understan you say is that even if a EBT has the gene, it would be inferior than one of your´s APBT, you may be right, but I started participating in this forum to say that is not true that the only one game bred dog is the APBT. We can discuss which is better, but it´s not the only one. Here there still are some animals of the ancient "perro de pelea cordobes", which would be tha argentine fightin dog. It was made up by crossing EBT and boxer, and game bred for about 40 years. It was a good game dog. This dog was the base to make the argentine dogo, eliminating the fighting gene. But some argentine dogo still have it and in Cordoba (argentine province), some are still game bred.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 2/28/2004
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argentino, your posts are excellent.  i see your point now and i totally agree.  i really wish that more breeders would be as selective as the breeders of fighting dogs.  i commend any breeder who is truly seeking the best out of their bloodlines. dogs in general would be more capable more dependable and more healthy if breeders bred them to work.  if dogs were culled, or at least altered when they showed any sign of carrying a detrimental trait to performing their "job" our breeds would be as game, healthy, and intelligent as they were 50 years ago.  possibly even superior.  as for your native dogs, they are a credit to your country.  the dogo, and the perro de pelea cordobes, both have bull terrier blood and there are those who believe that the bt, and the apbt came from the same crosses of bulldog and terrier.  the bull terrier had other blood added as well for cosmetic reasons.  the ebt was developed later than the dominant fighting dogs of the time.  that said it is no wonder that the newly developed dog could not compete. it is also understandable that the men of that day saw it loose and deemed it inferior.  they had already been selectively breeding for many years, but remember it was from the same blood that the pitbull was created from.  by "same blood" i mean bull and terrier. i believe that had the bull terrier had more time to be selectively bred for fighting ability it could have (and i say only possibly) been bred to contend with the dominating dogs of its day.  even this idea for me is a stretch, but it cannot be intelligently dismissed.                

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 2/29/2004
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black-powder-bob, I agree completely with your oppinion of working dogs. All breeds in the past were bred with some purpose. To make some "job", and selected by their working abilities. If we look what happens now, breeds are mostly selected for how they look. That`s why all breeds are so similar on workings aspects. The big problem for game dogs, is that its not legal in many parts of the world, so its almost imposible to work on it. I'm also glad to see that some people still work in selecting working abbilities. The question I always ask myself is: why its legal for people to fight (boxing), and ilegal to dogs?
About the inicial question, I think the conclution would be: The principal game dog in most countries is tha APBT, but the are OTHER game breeds, in very less proportion, that can match. Selection is the clue. Lets select.

 

Answer by Jacob
Submitted on 2/29/2004
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Im a rookie in this ish really, but let me just ask a ? on why is it that The Pit is considered a better fighter?.. is it because the Pit has a better bite, can resist pain more.. better lung's wut is it feel me?

and Argentino have u seen Bll Terrier's fight?.. how are they really in thr ring as big hearted as the Pit?.. gimme a lil insight on what u know on there fightin ability, and is it possible for me to find a game bred Bull Terrier, and how?

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/1/2004
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Jacob, maybe black-powder-bob can give a better answer to your question, but basically, becuase p
APBT continued being selected to do this job for many years more than other breeds. What I have been saing is that EBT was also continued game bred, but I must recognize that in very less proportion. I don't know where you can get one. If you were in Argentina, I would tell you to go and see puppies published in Cordoba (argentine province). I think that Cordoba is the only place here where still are game dogs. When you meet the breeder, you'll know if he has game dogs or not.
If you are starting and want to breed, you can buy any EBT puppy and test him when he's old enough (2 years). Here almost any EBT could match, but a few in a good level (compared with APBT). One thing to say with APBT, due to it's recentely appearence as a home dog, many breeders are selecting for "non agresion", so it could happen you to find many APBT no good for gaming. Always try to know the blood line (at least parents ability for working).

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/1/2004
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About your question of how is a EBT in the ring, basically as any game dog. Good ones dont ever quit, they seem not to have pain. I thing they have two disadvantages: To short legs and they get tired more quickly that APBT. Always talking generally. Some are as good.
Let me say that I'm no expert nor breeder. I'm farming engineer but have friends who do breed game dogs. I personally have seen matches and how game dogs are bred. Because it's ilegal, breeders must pretend they breed dogs for hunting.

 

Answer by Jacob
Submitted on 3/2/2004
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So I'm guessin Argentino that a match between a Bully, and an Argentino Dogo would be an interesting fight.

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/3/2004
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In fact Ive seen some. It was one of these the first match I saw. When I looked at the dogs, not having any knoledge about game dogs, I thought- this poor little dog will not resist 5min!- But I remember how that EBT got stucked to the dogo argentino's leg, and then to the other. After some minutes, the dogo couldn´t stand up. That was the end of match. I was then told that this EBT was the one used to test other dogs. The best game dog of the breeder. But some dogo argentinos (the ones that still have the genes of the "perro de pelea cordobes", still can match.

 

Answer by True+Pits
Submitted on 3/3/2004
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I havent went back and read all the new (and some interesting) post but I will later. I just noticed Jacobs ? so thought I'd jump in. The reason the APBT is in most cases a better fighting dog than most is because of the gameness it posses. It is deeper than most dogs of other breeds you'll find anywhere. Not all APBTs have it, many don't even come close and could never match up to a real deep game APBT. They have also been selectivly bred for years for combat so this has made them a good fighter. And I would say their bite and jaw power probably adds to it when punishing another dog. As far as them and pain, when they are being punished they can take it, gameness tells them to keep going to matter what. They won't stop for nothing. A game dog won't quit, the only thing that will stop it is death and thats after hours of fight and exhuastion. Thats what to me makes them great dogs period, they won't quit anything, not just a match.

 

Answer by Jacob
Submitted on 3/4/2004
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To those who think might know... answer my ?....out of lets say for example 20 bull terrier's..how many can be matched against a game bred pit, and have it promised to be atleast a good brawl?..and as far as to story that's on here about a story in which some guy's bull terrier has beaten game bred pit's like 5 time's, and has lost only once...is that believeable in the game dog world...is it possible?

are bull terrier's even respected by a dog men who fight'snuttin but pits as to him thinkin that bully's are the 2nd big thing in the ring after their pits????

My bad if i annoy ya wit my ?'s..lol

 

Answer by Acerak
Submitted on 3/5/2004
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What are you lot like talking about what would beat what you pack of losers. Bull Terrier is very tough and are we forgetting that a smaller more agile BT beat the socks off  the old type staff and that is how they got famous. Speed is just as important as weight so a lighter APBT or BT may have an advantage.

 

Answer by Sick of the bullsh**
Submitted on 3/5/2004
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OK, Pit Bulls, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and English Bull Terriers all obviously came from breeding terriers with bull dogs to equal a fighting dog. Before they were considered seperate breeds, they all fell under one category; pit dogs. These were just different strands of the same bull and terrier mixes, just bred to each different breeders preference. Now, of course, the whole object of dog fighting is to breed "WINNING" dogs, so they could win matches. After years and years of breeding winning dogs, the breeders with the best strands, were the dogs that were bought and bred by other dog men so they too could win matches. This strand is now known as the APBT. This was the dog that the dog men had been trying to achieve. People who liked the other strands for other reasons beside fighting ability, continued to breed them despite the fact that they might lack gameness. Thats why today, the other bully breeds lack the gameness of APBT's because gameness was no longer the purpose for breeding these dogs, simply because there was a dog better suited for the job. These dogs were being bred, game or not, so they soon lost the gameness. Today, APBT'sare the undisputed champion in the ring. They were, and are still the only strand of pit dogs to still be bred strictly for gameness. True enough, they are many breeds that might be this pit, or that pit, but as far as the over all population of pits, v.s. the over all population of other breeds, it's no question the pit is pound for pound the best fighting breed. For example, Mohammed Ali is known as the best boxer to ever live, but even he got beat by somebody. But just because he lost a fight, that doesnt mean you can take away his title as the best fighter. The END

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/7/2004
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Sick of the bullsh**, again, as what I said to black-powder-bob, you may be right about what you know happended in your country. But how can you know that in other places there are not breeds that continued being game bred. Here in argentina, EBT, APBT, dogo argentino and still some "perro de pelea cordobes", are being game bred. You are right about the origin of the breeds, but you are not when you say that other pit dogs continued being selected for other purposes. Maybe that happended in EEUU, where APBT seems to be the only game dog. But try all you people who think that what you know, is the only truth. I agree that the APBT is the game dog more game bred, but it's not the only one.
It's also probable that the APBT in EEUU would be the best (or even the ones bred in Rusia) because of the number of dogs. Selection occurs on a bigger pupulation. But in other places, like here, selection for gameness also occurs on other breeds.
How can you know that blood lines of the old EBT that came here 100 years ago didn't continue to being game bred?
One more thing. The gameness genes can not be lost so easily. They were fixed during creation of these breeds.

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 3/10/2004
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I hear what your saying Argentino. But unfortunatly gameness can be very easily lost, thats why after a few generations of breeding non-gamebred dogs you get big time curs and only a few that would match up to the dogs they are bred from. People believe that because there dogs grand parents were game they have a gamebred dog who is also going to be game and they can breed him and sell the pups as gamebred pups, but it just doesn't work that way.

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/12/2004
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True pits, I'll tell you something about the dogo argentino. The "base breed" used during it's creation was the "perro de pelea cordobes" (cordobe's fighting dog - argentine game dog). This dog became breed after generations of selecting for gameness the original crosses between EBT and Boxer or spanish mastin. The resulting was a breat game breed. Dr. Nores Martínez (creator of Dogo argentino) wanted to use this dogs for hunting but they were no good because they couldn't work toghether with other dogs. Dr. Nores Martínez had to work for more that 10 years selecting AGAINST gameness to get a dog that wouldn't fight other dog with no reason. And after that intense selection, you can still find about 10% of dogo argentino with gameness genes. Where did the gameness genes come from? EBT is the answer. The old EBT used during the creation of the "perro de pelea cordobes" remained after generations. It's because those genes were fixed (this is my transaltion from spanish for the tecnical word. I don't know if it's correct). Fixed means that the genes are STRONGLY present in a subpopulation (sp translation) due to the continue selection and forced endogamia (crosses between relatives). The EBT was very endogamic (SP translation) at its origin, that's why it's characteristics are so strong. I don't mean to give a genetical class here, but I work using genetics and I wanted to clear up some things.
After that, we can discuss about QUANTITIES and PERCENTAGES. YES, APBT is the breed that has the greater number of game dogs. Also, it's the breed that has the greater percentage of game dogs INSIDE it's subpopulation. But this doesn't mean that it's the only one. Maybe the better, I don't know. To find that out, It would be necessary to match game dogs/breeds from all the world.
Regions and countries have their own game dogs/breeds. EBT continued being game bred in many places. I can understand that you people from eeuu, strongly think that APBT is the best and only dog game bred. Again: maybe the best, but not the only one.

 

Answer by cricket
Submitted on 3/12/2004
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Ok let  me ask this then. What are the names of some of the game EBT lines, better yet, what are the names of some of the proven champion EBT'S And i am quite sure that pit's have been matched with all of the other fighting breeds in order to earn it's title as the best fighting dog. Also, gameness can be lost very easily. You see, you are reffering to dog aggresion. True, dog aggression is hard to, and maybe impossible to breed out of a fighting line, but gameness is something much different.

 

Answer by Kelly (APBT Owner)
Submitted on 3/12/2004
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Ok, everyone is missing the point here.  Its not about "my dog can beat your dog" it's not about how fast your dog can kill any other dog.  What it IS about is: persistance and heart.  Game bred between two dogs means, "Hey, I won't quit until you do"!  Any dog not matter what breed can always have a good or bad day, so you can't say all APBT'swill beat all EBT's  what you can say is the ONLY breed in history that is truly game bred is the APBT.  This spectacular breed of dog will fight until there isn't another breath left in him/her.

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/12/2004
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Cricket, let me explain how things happen here. There are no "lines" and no known champions, just for the simple reason that it's ilegal to breed game dogs (and less can be wroten on internet,he!). But I'll tell you how it works. In Cordoba, people basically breed dogs (dogo argentino) for hunting (jabalí and puma). Most of these small breeders (each one may own 3 or 4 females) also own game dogs (not dogo argentino, but EBT OR APBT, crosses between and eventually dogo). The matches are in "someones" farm. Someone's dog, against onotherone's dog. But those breeders pretend they breed all those dogs for hunting.
Another thing, Im talking about gameness and not agression. I mean that some dogo argentino can match. As you can see, the quality of breeding is not the best. Also the number of dogs is small, that's why I never said that this EBTs are CHAMPIONS of nothing. Just game dogs, that here in Argentina, match with APBT.
Let me say I've no particular preference for EBT. I like APBT very match, in fact I said a lot of times it's maybe the best worldwide. The point of my argue is that it's not THE ONLY ONE, as many say.
I wouldn't like to argue about genetics, but I sostain that when genes are fixed into a blood line by endogamia (recurrent crosses between relatives), they are not easyly lost. Almost all characters are ruled by groups of genes. So happens with gameness. All or one gene must mutate to loose gameness if both parents have the genes. I have no personal reason to defend EBT. I like ABT and APBT as equal.

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/12/2004
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Keelly, I'm APBT owner too. I will not write all again, but you can read my answer to cricket.
What means "truly" game bred? If you replace the "truly", for "seriously", I agree. But remember that other breeds (or even no breeds! just croses!) may be being game bred (ok, not so serioulsly) in other places and you don't know (like here)- It's not about "my dogs" or "your dogs", NO. It's about people who say APBT is the only game dog, and other people saing, "here, where I live, there are other breeds that match APBT. Just it.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 3/17/2004
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argentino a thought occurred to me and i think this might help with you having to defend your perfectly valid point over and over.  to be "game bred" is a state of being.  that is to say the description has nothing to do with heredity, but with performance.  thats how pit men describe their rare and ultimate dogs.  to breed for gameness is the attempt of producing a "game bred dog".  thats why so many posts are saying that the apbt is the only "game bred" dog.  that is also why it is so difficult to produce a "game bred" dog  even when both parents are from game breeding.  so when you say that ebt is being game bred i interpret that to mean you have produced in the ebt what is rarely seen among the best apbt's.  also to attain the title "game bred" the dog must be matched against an already proven "game bred" dog.  i see it as near impossible for most of us to 1; breed a truly game dog and 2; find a proven champion to match with.  
to breed for gameness on the other hand is believable and commendable.  i was reading the posts and seeing everybody say the same things over and over and thought this might be part of the problem.  being "game bred" is different than being bred for gameness.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 3/17/2004
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i hear gameness as "fighting to the death".  which it is to some extent.  but for the casual or average dog owner isn't it more about an adaptable dependable dog?  hounds good ones or "game" ones will run the trail they are set on, and unless called off will run themselves to death.  yet hound owners dont say my hounds run to the death.  this hasn't become a popular term among even the most avid hound owners who have lost good hounds occasionally due to the hounds "heart" or "grit".  in fact it sounds stupid to say my hounds trail to the death.  why then do so many apbt and even ebt owners say my dog will fight to the death.  then quickly say but they dont start it, or when a dog jumped us at the park etc.  it really is a stupid thing to say in describing such loving, loyal animals.  we know the apbt will give his life for his owner.  we know he would try to swim the ocean if we asked and die trying if we asked.  the apbt is gameness in its purest form.  "hi this is my brother and he'll fight to the death, wont ever stop no matter what, can beat up anything".  dont you get what you sound like.  how do you think this helps the general public view the apbt.  of course these things about the apbt are true.  dont you think it might be a little smarter to say this is the best dog ever, or ive never even seen a dog that can compare to my pit than saying my pit can kill anything, my pit will fight to the death?  seriously people if you have something to prove dont get your best friend (your pit)involved.  bottom line, nobody's bulletproof if all you can say is that you will fight to the death doesn't it make sense that you will half to die pretty soon.  i mean if thats all your about.  granted this forum is all about fighting. being willing to die for what you love is what war is about, but ive never had a good pit or bully excitedly tell me hey guess what i will fight to the death.  come on, these dogs are all smiles when it comes to life.  thats what makes the apbt American; business is business and nobody does it better, the rest is good times.          

 

Answer by malasia
Submitted on 3/18/2004
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Yeah, my dachshund barks to the death!~!

 

Answer by pitbulllover
Submitted on 3/21/2004
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I HAVE A MALE PITBULL .IT KILLED AROTT IN 20 MINUTES. A PIT IS ALWAYS THE TOP FIGHTER.

 

Answer by pitbulllover
Submitted on 3/21/2004
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I HAVE A MALE PITBULL .IT KILLED AROTT IN 20 MINUTES. A PIT IS ALWAYS THE TOP FIGHTER.

 

Answer by malasia
Submitted on 3/22/2004
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Was it a baby rot?

 

Answer by Better things to do..
Submitted on 3/24/2004
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sad pathetic little people that get a kick out of fighting dogs..

take a long hard look in the mirror and figure out what your compensating for..

 

Answer by graymalkin
Submitted on 3/27/2004
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When could anything or body from Argentina beat anything or body. They showed what they were made of during the Falklands. F*&k Argentina and the horse or dog they rode in on.

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 3/27/2004
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Ok, right...

If you've read well, you could see I was defending EBT (english dogs)... Even you saing that, I still belive english dogs are excelent. Even if they are bred here, they continue being english breeds...

 

Answer by Max
Submitted on 3/27/2004
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Hi!
Which is the dog is the strongest and most powerful Enter AKITAS and ALASKAN MALAMUTE?

Any here do you have photo and video for share with me.

my mail is nathan_colin@hotmail.com

thanks

 

Answer by Bandit
Submitted on 3/28/2004
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Everyone who thinks the have a tough dog should hold a tournament of all dighting dogs.  Everyone who thinks they have a champion should enter.  I don't care if you have a chihuahua, bring it in.  May the toughest dog win.  We should do that and find out who the toughest individual dog is.  Forget the breed, I just wanna see the baddest dog.

 

Answer by george78
Submitted on 3/29/2004
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Has any of you dog men seen any EBT in the pits? Is it imposible to see any or may sometime appear one?

 

Answer by lil-woot
Submitted on 3/31/2004
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to all you rottie owners match your dog by weight and put it down aginst even a cur PIT BULL; for a good amont of time.Any dog that out weighs 5 or 10 pds more will sometimes domnat at first. but in the end you will see why rotties are herding dogs and dont belong in a pit with a pit. I dont suggest doing this for the love and respect of all dogs

 

Answer by lil-woot
Submitted on 3/31/2004
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lil_woot@yahoo.com

 

Answer by george78
Submitted on 3/31/2004
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It seems that rotts can´t match. But what about EBT? I heard a lot of people saying it´s very good fighter (even if not game bred). Better than any other dog (except pit bulls). Is it true?

 

Answer by G.B
Submitted on 3/31/2004
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I want more stories on the hyena vs pitbull or any molloser

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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where can i get a game bred ebt?

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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i know a large staffordshire who has never lost a fight. when he was six months he savaged a rotty who double his age, height and weight how do most staffs rank in game and are they good fighters?

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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oh and also that satffordshire i was talking bout has mullered an alsatian another staff another rott and about 25 dogs which were all vicious and when has been biten into has never even squeled but these were all street fights hwo would he compete in the ring?

 

Answer by G.B
Submitted on 4/3/2004
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Has anyone heard or know of any stories of Pits vs wolverines or any dog that is. I heard a story of a pit concering a wolverine up in the North don't know If it's true but I heard from good source,Any one heard ever heard of these enconters.

 

Answer by Quiquihatch Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/3/2004
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most of you are sewer nesting vipers wanting dogs to hurt each other to see which fights best this is disgusting and God will let you burn later

liability lawyers will come after you in the courts and leave you living under bridge eating crickets and drinking rainwater

word comes that owner of a fighting dog took him up North where he beat the local timber wolf after  hard struggle

months later the dog fully recovered except for lots of scars, the owner brings the dog back to face smaller combatant

result---the dog lost his intestines because the smaller animal was a wolverine that removed the poor dog's guts with slashing claws, fight sponsors arrested by mounties due to informant who found a conscience

fact or fiction, ask any veterinarian, a wolverine can wrestle aside logs 12 times its weight, the force behind those claws is dreadful, jaws crush bones like straw and chew frozen meat like cakes dog cannot fight enemy with razor blade feet, remove claws same end wolverine stronger jaws, stronger body insane fighter from hell

true accounts of cougars killed by wolverines exist

the talk of pitting against hyenas and other species is sickening yes they will all fight each other better instead you owners should fight each other

the pit dog is not to be taken lightly but is not capable of facing some of the wild species like wolverine, from whom all give ground except the great grizzly

let no one attempt this, mounties in Canada watch for you

I expect contradiction because you people are blind with pride please stop hurting animals for your amusement you are as cruel as old Romans

 

Answer by swami
Submitted on 4/4/2004
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people bomb children
people cheer

people box people
people cheer

dog fight dog
people cheer

We tiny men constantly need reassurances at any cost that we are supreme. When the world is no longer here our thirst will be quenced. For what we cannot have we strive to destroy.




dnabox@hotmail.com

 

Answer by tonythepara
Submitted on 4/5/2004
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my last post was a little long winded,but i meant to emphasise the point that ebt'sare still very game. i dont condone dog fighting but i used to use two lakelands for fox hunting and pest control. these little dogs weighed in at 9 pounds, but could dig through tunnels then fight a fullgrown fox and kill her,underground.with hardly any room to move let alone back away. so pound for pound i could argue the lakeland is the hardest dog out there! if that sort of thing floats your boat!

 

Answer by malasia
Submitted on 4/6/2004
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My lakeland fights fox to the death.

Listen to chief, or yoda...whoever that was.  He speaks truth.  Ahhhhhh

My chief fights to the death!!!  

 

Answer by fox
Submitted on 4/7/2004
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the ebt wins every time.i have one that is 8 months old he is approx 3 half sone and about knee high on me im 5"11, @ 7 months he ripped out a rottys throat in the park, the rotty had to be putt down, he was a big bastard too............ anyway the english bull terrier is the best dog to have and is proberbly the toughest dog on this planet!

 

Answer by mac
Submitted on 4/9/2004
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I have 2 dogs a staffy and an akita x ebt I would not consider fighting these dogs or encouraging these dogs to attack other dogs they are pets both rescue dogs.Probably rescued from some wanna be hard man with a bull terrier as status symbol.Get a life give your dogs a life and stop giving the bull terrier breed a bad name.

 

Answer by American
Submitted on 4/9/2004
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Crazy talk.  If any of these dogs could match with a game bred pitbull terrier, than those dogs would be the elite dogs in the game. However, they have all been out worked and out classed by the APBT.  That does not mean that they will not scratch and they are not game, they just cannot scratch as hard and are not game enough.  And for the Tosa big bag of bones.  Match a 100+ lbs. dog to a 45 lbs. dog and call that game???  All your Rotts, Tosa, Bullies will certainly take care of business but the APBT is out of their league 99.9999% of the time.  Correction, game bred APBT, not your street Amstaff mixes, and pitbull muts.  

 

Answer by Game
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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I own pittype kennels in South Africa,  I gamebreed pitbulls,  staffordshire terriers and bullterriers and have been doing so for twenty years.  NOTHING  compares to the American Pitbulls gameness,  jawstrength and speed. It's closest rival(by no means worthy adversary)the staffordshire terrier, lacks the gameness.  as far as the bullterrier is concerned they are only to be matched against other bullterriers they are to slow and to weak.  The idiot that's willing to put his bulterrier up against anything else needs counceling. TRUST ME I KNOW. Out of the hundreds of fights I have witnessed I have never seen a bullterrier beat another pit-type. But make no mistake the bullterrier is a master in disguise.  As for the idiot the Tosa Inu,  go to Tokyo!


 

Answer by mac
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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Game.You are the person that needs help and the rest of the small minded people bragging about how hard their dogs are game bred pure bred in bred the lot of you.

 

Answer by lorenzo
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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mac, please leave us dog men alone. If you don like gaming, just don´t participate in this forum. You are not helping to answer the main question of this forum. You are nothing to judge if this sport is good or bad. Let god do that.

 

Answer by ranger
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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Was spudz Mckenzie an English bull terrier

 

Answer by mac
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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lorenzo.Thanks for the reply.I have a staffy plus a akita x ebt.They are my pets.I would not get a kick out of them ripping the throat  out of someone elses dog or vice versa.And as for god well.

 

Answer by andy
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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You red neck scum....can't believe you get enjoyment out of fighting dogs....you are not right in the head...I bet you all shag sheep as well!

 

Answer by missy
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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i think a pit would give it to any dog wrong a tosa inu will the best fighter ever .won every fight when i heard that a pit was put in a ring with a tosa and the pit got its ass kicked.and rott will also give it to a pitbull.i have a labmix and she has gotten into dog fights with fighting game dogs and i cant really say she lost but didnt lose either.was a tie.iwatched dog fights before if you train the dog right it could be really good any dog can fight if a pit didnt have lock jaw it would be just like any othe dog.

 

Answer by 8 foot 3 inch Russian
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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got your attention huh?  there was a news story about that fellow I saw this morning

now to the pit bulls, I see Netscape start page has story about 4 pits killing a man's 8 year old son

a postman threw his mail bag and a block of wood at the dogs---guess what---those cowardly BASTARD pits RAN OFF

SCURVY COWARDS!!!

the owner told the mailman to get off his property

that pit bull owner is such a CHEAP LOWLIFE he heard his son's screams and wouldn't help

he probably was watching through the window, enjoying the killing

the cops locked him up, bail set at $233,000

word is he could face the DEATH PENALTY (for being such a LOWLIFE BASTARD)

those cheap bastard dogs belong inside a TREE CHIPPER or a CAR CRUSHER

pit bull owners BEWARE there is a BACKLASH AGAINST YOUR BULLY DOGS

courts and lawyers are likely to leave you with NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Answer by lorenzo
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Answer by 8 foot 3 inch Russian> You are not helping to answer the question. If you don't like gaming, why did you participate in this forum? Remember that it's legal in many countries. Are you used to attack everything you don't like? Learn the meaning of tolerance and apply it. You should.
Back to the question, after some research, I realize that pit bull is mostly gamebred. In some countries tosa, dogo, english/stafford BT, fila are matched, not at the level of pitbull, but always on top of other breeds.

 

Answer by Dre Man
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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You people are all idiots! I live in Detriot (the dog fighting capitol) and anyone in their right mind knows that no other dog is a match for a pit.

 

Answer by pitt luver
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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im not a big fan of dog fighting but iv seen my pitt\shepard  fight once it wipped the other dog up so pitts are #1    ps. storm is there a book u could recamend 4 me to teach my dog how to attsck on cammand because my dog is a little sweet if you no wat i meen but not in a fight

 

Answer by 8' 4
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Lorenzo, be a man and find another man to hurt, do it legally, boxing, or wrestling, don't make dogs suffer to bring you pleasure.

If seeing pain and defeat is what you get off on, get into competitive fighting sports.

I just humiliate other men by pinning their arm on a table and no one is hurt but the ego gets hurt bad.  Hurting dogs for wagering isn't right.  There is a Creator you will answer to.  If He sends you down below, you could find that 8' 4" Russian standing on your throat for trillions of years.

HEY YOU PEOPLE!!!  Instead of fighting your dogs, why not do the weight pulling instead.  You could even start a new competition, evenly matched bones to see who can break them fastest.

But you're the type people who'd rather see a boxer cause a fatal concussion to another boxer.  Watching Alexeev put 600 pounds overhead isn't what you get off on.

 

Answer by ROTTSnPITS
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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man yall a bunch of fagget ass pendejos we all know a pit is da best fighter round here but a rott can also be a pretty bad fighter

 

Answer by pete
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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I love apbt. But I have seen a single bull terrier for the first time in years in my neighborhood park. They are very tough looking animals. They could really be game if properly trained. I believe they are about the same build and size as an apbt except for that
Amazing looking set of choppers and head. What have me totally impressed is the strength on its neck this bull terrier was playing with a big plastic trash can about 40 or 50 pounds and was flipping this can up in the air with no effort. Also the freaking prize tag on this monsters are stiff between $1300 and $1700 no wonder I do not see many of them. Apbt are a dime a dozen  around here. Therefore they get more ink.

 

Answer by pete
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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I love apbt. But I have seen a single bull terrier for the first time in years in my neighborhood park. They are very tough looking animals. They could really be game if properly trained. I believe they are about the same build and size as an apbt except for that
Amazing looking set of choppers and head. What have me totally impressed is the strength on its neck this bull terrier was playing with a big plastic trash can about 40 or 50 pounds and was flipping this can up in the air with no effort. Also the freaking prize tag on this monsters are stiff between $1300 and $1700 no wonder I do not see many of them. Apbt are a dime a dozen  around here. Therefore they get more ink.

 

Answer by izzy95
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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All of you people that support dog fighting can't even spell; that is how uneducated you are. Dog fighting is wrong, if you truly love you dog, then you wouldn't want to see it hurt in a fight. If you fight your dog, you are doing it for financial gain. Dogs are meant to be loved, not to be fought.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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i think izzy may just have a point.  the average pitbull owner is of low intelligence.  this page is proof.  not only can you guys not spell, but you blatantly know nothing about dogs.  its hilarious to read these posts and hear the thick red neck accent play through.  its either that or gangsta slang when it comes to pits.  the people who post on the board and call everyone names and say pit fighting is cruel, know NOTHING about pit fighting.  it is terribly cruel but most folks, even so called pit fighters on this board, have no idea.  dogs dont die from loss of blood or from having their throats ripped out.  the dogs in the pits most often die from the shock their bodies go into.  they put everything their beings are able to muster into the fight, they push well past their bodies limits and die from the overexertion.  a dog who is not game will not push itself beyond its limits in the pit.  talk about brutal, sometimes more than 2 hours of intense fighting watching your dog go past red line, accepting the fact that its going to die, and continue on fighting until it literally cannot go anymore.  that is brutality like no one on this board has seen.  if you had you would either shy away or respectfully embrace but never would you boast about having the toughest dog to a bunch of amateurs on a weak board like this one.  we most likely will loose our right to own pitbulls and ebt'sand other perceived dangerous breeds.  your lack of intelligence is acceptable.  your irresponsibility is acceptable, what comes with that is an inability to defend yourself when the lawmakers threaten to cave once again to the politically correct masses, this also is acceptable.  we as a society except people of your nature because we have a hand in your creation.  so go on talking about how tuff your dogs are.  the funny thing is that actually has nothing to do with the original question.  why is anyone even mentioning rotts or mixes?  you people make it hard for the rest of us.  before 1972 no one to speak of even knew what a pit was.  there were no pitbull attacks.  thats right none!  no threat to children no warnings of breed legislation nothing.  there also were no pretend experts going around saying my pit is tuffer than your dog.  those who fought and raised pits then did so in a way so as not to bother the public.  stupid people bother the public and now stupid people have pitbulls (i dont mean to call names i use stupid or stupidity as a description of your demeanor).  you are my problem.  but i am not sure how to solve you.  the pitbull is the most honest breed alive today.  it is what it is and has never tried to be anything else.  the true pit has not changed only the ownership of the pit has changed.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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one more thing i find amusing.  there are a number of people who post on this board just to call names and say demeaning things about dog fighters.  that is terribly ineffective.  but what is really amusing is how many of these comments are accompanied by personal challenges or personal attacks.  for instance "your probably all vertically challenged" or "if your so tuff why not fight me" type statements.  so you choose to fight ignorance with ignorance and violence with violence..... um... this makes since how?

 

Answer by max
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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to be honest i think the pit is an amazing dog but if the american bulldog and olde english bulldog had as much stamina as the pit or ebt the i reckon they could deal a fair bit of damage. p.s izzy shut up you putz

 

Answer by 8' 4
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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Black Powder Bob---I grant, that is colorful---reminds me of Fess Parker in that great Daniel Boone TV show

only thing that wrecks the daylights out of me is your use of the non-word, "um."

Didn't you know only dumb teenage girls say "um?"

Speaking of tough men---let no one forget, the toughest of all are world champion Olympic weightlifters---boxers, wrestlers, karate, etc., give them a wide berth, they'll crush you like a box of corn flakes.  I was once a "B" grade lifter.  I wanted to keep my liver so I didn't take drugs like Varbanov.

I suggest you find a Toastmasters club and take speech and writing lessons.

 

Answer by argentino
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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black-powder-bob> I agree with you in almost everything you wrote. But you must understand that there is a lot of people that owns pit bulls (or any "bull and terrier type")which are not "dog men" and still like dog fights. Those people like also to talk and read about it. And internet forums are probably their only way. I don't think this forum is that low level. Maybe mostly, but there are some interesting posts.
For instance, I tried in my posts to describe how game dog world is here ,arg. Same with a guy from south africa. I agree that a lot of posts show ingnorace. They don't even know pit rules. If they did, it would save them a lot of words... Also agree with the thing of people attacking pit fights. There may be 2 reasons here: Ignorance or ideology. But let us ignore those posts and take the few goods. In fact, the main question doesn't mention anything about if it's good or bad (pit fights). So, people how want to write about that, please do it in another forum. Let's respect basic rules of forums.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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8'4 your references are dated and cannot be related to by this generation. once again name calling "dumb teenage girls" demeans you more than it does your target.  then you move straight into the physical power of athletes, stating their prowess as a warning.  and the best part of your post, you speak of how you were almost once great. then provide an excuse as to why you never made it.  then end with a bang, more sarcastic advice.  my points are clear and i would appreciate anyone's response to the points made.  pitbulls are the ultimate athletes of the canine world and they do not feel the need to intimidate others.  they do not growl or make threat displays.  they fight when they can and spend the rest of the time being the most loyal companions on earth.  you/we would do well to follow their example.    

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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argentino- agreed, i just hate to see so much damage done at the hands of those who know so little.  

 

Answer by aussieownner
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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To start with let me say I don't have anything to do with dog fighting,I'm not totally against it but it's just not my "cup of tea".
I have been a owner and breeder of EBT's for over 15 years and have many friends who are vet's, so I have a pretty good uderstanding of their physical characteristics.
To start with, when people use the term "lock jaw" I think they have the misconception that a breed of dog e.g apbt,ebt has a different jaw structure.They are wrong,this term come about simply because these breeds poses an extreme amount of jaw closing strength and use upto 90% of the jaw muscles for closing their mouth and very  little muscle for opening, that is why it is very difficult to open their mouth but very easy to hold it closed- similar to a crocodile.
O.K. back to the question,IF ebt's were game bred to the same extent and for as many years as the apbt,I think it would be a close match,however the ebt would need to finish the fight quickly as it's head structure does not allow for as prolonged physical exertion as the apbt,the ebt has a very narrow and obstructed nasal passage due to it's unusual skull shape, so it does not get the same amount of oxygen into it's lungs as the apbt.
As at the moment ebt's are not,as a rule, bred for gameness so I believe the apbt is the ultimate fighting dog.
So in saying that if alot of the true fighting breeds mentioned in this forum(e.g neo. mastif, tosa, dogo) were game bred to the same extent as the apbt I think the apbt could have some difficulties simply due to the fact of most of these breeds superior size and strength and then the only way to compare would be to have weight matched fights to find out which breed is the best "pound for pound"fighter.
To all of those people who mention rots.,sure there might be some big, angry examples of them out there that can fight,but these are exeptions, 99% of the time they will not beat a true fighting breed simply because they were never bred to be fighters- never were,never will be.
But my final coment is to all the people who are niave enough to think that apbt"s will always win, just remember that there are some exceptional specimens of all the breeds who will prove you wrong and make you look like an idiot.

 

Answer by argentino
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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aussieownner> Excellent post! I have some knoledge in game bred EBT and I can say it's true what you say about the inferior capacity getting air. EBT needs to win in few scratches (rounds), otherwise gets tired and quits before APBT.
I've seen few Rotts tested with EBT and it's clear they can't match. They quit after some damage. I know none game bred rott.
But back to the question, I think EBT is in a lower level than APBT, but EBT gives great matches with another EBT or any 2nd level fighting breed (dogo for example).


 

Answer by 8'4
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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Bob you could be an English teacher except you don't understand plain English.

I made a choice for longer life by avoiding strength enhancing drugs.  Alexander Pervi raised 493 lbs overhead at just 181 lbs.

He also had a heart attack at age 23!

A few years of freak strength wasn't worth my health and you say I made excuses Bob you are a cheap shot artist.

Any informed person knows a person on enhancers---called "restoratives" in Russia---has unfair advantage over all natural.

I don't doubt your acquanitance with pit bulls but when the subject went to human lifting not only are you unfair but ill-informed.

The pit bull is a great example of selective breeding accomplishing a result people want.  But along with it you get legal liability.  Got homeowner'sinsurance, Bob?

I knew a 280 lb pro-wrestler in the mid-80's he said the way he'd get a pit bull off someone was, pull the dog's legs horizontally away from each other while jumping on the dog's rear, that would BREAK the pelvis and STOP the attack!

If all you pit fanciers really want if a loyal affectionate pet you'd get Irish Setters.  What you really want is something able to do a lot of damage.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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my names not bob, its BLACK POWDER BOB!  ha ha I'm kidding bob's fine.  the essence of a mans greatness is his life's work.  take away all his experiences and he is not the same.  so to with the pitbull take the gameness from him and he is just an irish setter in a pits body.  as for the discrimination against specific breeds by insurance companies, pits were not targeted 10yrs ago and 10yrs from today we will have other breeds to ridicule(I'm in marketing and the masses are actually quite fickle about these things).  as for weightlifting i am fascinated by the sport.  (i prefer the old timers to todays champs).  i personally fight competitively, all things going as planned i will be in the national rankings here shortly.  i only mention these things to show i have a background in competitive sports.  i know people are not interested in me but my background has led me to research things like gameness, game testing methods, weight pulling, and answers to questions like the one at the head of this forum.  aussieowner- i have wondered if the head shape of the ebt was purely cosmetic or if it provided a specific advantage.  if an advantage is provided the following question would be: the reason the pitbull has opted to go in another direction.  i have my theories but am not an expert on bullies as there are so few to study in my immediate area.  i see a similar head shape in the beddlington terrier one of the breeds thought to be the progenitor of todays pitbull.  i truly appreciate you post.  and 8'4 I'm glad you made the right choice, avoided freak strength, and are here with us today.
-bob    

 

Answer by CHECKETT
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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both of these dogs are fierce fighting machines but if you start introducing bull mastiff blood or alike this then makes them an even more formidable dog (bann dog). you get the same ferocity but larger size and this animal would destroy a pit or BT.
to find a ure bred dog to compete against these you have to start looking at the Tosa or the Bully Kutty

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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checkett- the cross you mentioned are awesome dogs.  they are especially great as guard dogs, dogs for fighting people.  in the pits they lack two things, gameness and stamina.  greater size in this case cannot compensate.

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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<<If all you pit fanciers really want if a loyal affectionate pet you'd get Irish Setters.  What you really want is something able to do a lot of damage.>>

This is just too funny...lol After being threatened and almost attacked by our English Setter and a friend having to have their aggressive setter put down I think I will steer clear of them. Give me my good ol' trusty APBTs, even if they are easily stolen because they are so friendly and thats a drawback. I can live it rather than a dog telling me what to do and trying to attack neighbors. One time I thought the setter was going to go through the fence and kill my neighbor, but thats only fair when their big cocker spaniel came on MY property and porch and cornered me growling, but Animal Control took care of him. I don't find a dog that growls to be affectionate.

A good question is why would I want a dog that can do any kind of damage? All dogs can do damage. But why would I or many others give a flying flip aout how much damage a dog can do? This is really don't understand. Since I don't train any breed I have to attack or kill anything its not important to me. Never even crossed my mind. How do you get an APBT to attack people though?

 

Answer by aussieowner
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Bob>If you look at pictures of early EBT's you can see that their head had a much lower profile, their muzzle was also longer and more narrow, very few had any arch in their profile and most had a slight dip. Due to the fact that shortly after their initial conception, people started breeding them for their looks rather than their fighting ability and the arched look was more desirable, so through selective breeding the arch has become more and more  exaggerated as time has passed. So yes this was done for cosmetic reasons, but as a result the head has become much wider and the muzzle much shorter resulting in a greatly increased jaw strength.
I also agree with the comments of how loving,affectionate and friendly most of these so - called "aggresive and dangerous" breeds are. When raised correctly and well socialised these are some of the most loyal breeds and after 10 years of showing dogs, which involves a complete stranger touching your dog all over and even pulling open their mouth, I have never seen one of these breeds even growl at a judge, let alone bite one. The same cannot be said for many of the smaller "lap" dogs or working breeds which tend to be alot more defensive and nervous around strangers.
The fighting breeds,are naturally hard to train not to show aggression towards other animals,it's part of their nature, but as a rule, they will never show aggression towards people(unless they feel that they or their "family" are threatened),if they do they should be culled(as true dog fighting people do) or at the least never bred from.Usually the exception's are mistreated or raised by the IDIOT'S who think it is good to have a tough dog.These people are the minority of owners, but they get the most publicity and are the reason why the public hates our breeds(people are scared of what they don't uderstand). People don't realise that 99.9% of these dogs are lovable family members who would never harm a peson and in most cases would greet a visitor with a big, sloppy "kiss".
In Australia,due to the bad publicity the APBT has been given because of a few stupid owners, it is now illegal to import these dogs, and the general public is so ignorant that they hate them but do not even realise that the friendly dog next door that they let their children play with is actually a APBT.(because of the bad publicity, I do not have this problem, because of the EBT's unique look everybody knows what they are and always think my dogs are going to bite them and even give comments like  "why would anyone own such an aggressive dog,they should all be killed").

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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aussieowner- most of the people i run into dont recognize a pit unless it is over 50lbs and cropped.  the 35lb animals i love are usually scoffed at.  which i prefer to the child shielding hysteria.  in america the people have just finished raping the tobacco companies.  now the latest project is suing mcdonalds for making them fat.  when people buy into these ideas without thinking about them they set themselves up to be the next target.  public opinion is very unpredictable and can easily turn on you for any number of reasons.  it was st. Bernard's 25yrs ago and then dobermans (with that whole swelling brain lie) now its pitbulls (with the locking jaw lie), tomorrow it could be anyones breed up for public ridicule.  history doesent lie.  anyway- the bull terrier's head is  very impressive power wise.  also i have loved the look of them ever since spud mckenzie hit the scene.  these dogs are as impressive looking as anything on the market today.  they have a feel of total capability about them.  the ones i have seen up close and personal are such good ol' boys in attitude its almost comforting to be around them.  my friend traded for one to guard his muscle car.  it had been broken into 3 or 4 times.  he came out the next morning to find all 4 tires chewed and flat!  it was expensive but funny.  no one believed the dog would hurt anyone because he was so nice.  when people would rib my buddy about his super friendly "guard dog" he would ask them if they felt like testing him out in the dark.  anyway no more break ins.  i wish i could find a good bully i would really love to own one.  
as a side note: today in the news they got this whole scene on film right from the start. 2 rottweilers broke free from their owner who was walking them and tore this old Lady's poodle to shreds.  it looked like she was fishing, holding the leash while the rotts had their way with the little dog.  the owner was on all fours down trying to get the poodle away from the rotts.  he couldnt do a thing to stop them.  finally someone else ran over and laid into the rotts with their boots and they ran off.  the owner then got them by the leashes and went about 50 feet before he passed out.  they had to take him to the hospital.  he wasnt bitten just shaken up.  i say now IF YOU CANNOT INVEST THE TIME AND MENTAL ENERGY TO LEARN TO HANDLE YOUR OWN DOGS CEASE YOUR OWNERSHIP!!  its people like this that are my problem.  they accidentally shoot themselves, they accidentally run over pedestrians, they accidentally are irresponsible with their dogs, stupid people are stupid by choice and pay their own penalties.  if you choose not to learn or do your research then you choose not to know.  but we pay too you me and that little old lady.  people will blame the rotts, maybe they are next on the hit list.   time will tell.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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something else that is interesting to note, the poodle is expected to live.  no broken neck, no throat torn out no nothing like has been mentioned by so many of the previous posts.  two hundred pound plus rotties chew on a less than fifteen pound poodle and the poodle lives.  kinda makes you think about the likelihood of tosas, bandogs, filas, neo's and such snapping a pit's neck.  

 

Answer by Jacob
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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I'd pay a Million dollars to see a game bred English Terrier fight a game bred Pit...I'm so curious it aint even funny...so tired of hearin whos better, If i was to see a pit beat a Bull Terrier 3 outta 5 matches then I'd agree that the Pit is superior, but in the mean time im stickin wit my bullies.

 

Answer by 0
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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when you say game bred does that mean training the dog with bait animals stolen pets cats rabbits small dogs dogs picked up from free to good home adverts.then finally when they do fight.blood loss shock dehydration exhaustion infection hours or days to die.by the way is a dog man a dog resembling a man or a man resembling a dog?

 

Answer by aussieowner
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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O> why did you come on here? you obviously have no idea what you are talking about!!!You are probably one of these "tree hugging ,hippie" f#*kwits, who complain about everything that does not agree with you and stops anyone else in the world doing something they enjoy just because YOU don't like it.
Dog fighting is still legal in some countries, so keep your stupid f#*king comments to yourself and go to a forum that needs idiots like you.
By the way, are you one of these hypocritical "do-gooders" who criticize things like this, but then drink alcohol and drive your car and endanger the public, if so who is a better, more responsible citizen?

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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Gamebred means the animals parents were both tested, proven dogs. They were game to their pups are gamebred. Think like a dog out of two CH show parents is showbred. It doesn't have to do with training but the breeding of the animal. if they are weightpull ace then they are pullbred. A dog that is gamebred may not even be game. A dog that is show bred may have bad conformation. A dog that is pullbred may not like pulling at all. Its that they are more likely to be, but not everydog in every litter will always be what it is bred to be. A dog killing small animals or other dogs won't make it game at all. Make a killer or aggressive but not game and that obviously can't change the breeding of the dog...lol If you take a showbred dog but train it to pull it in conformation it will be a weightpull dog but still a showbred dog.

 

Answer by watto
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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you people are very disturbed lets just hope that one day your dog turns on you and shows you how hard it is. saying this i know for definate that a game staffordshire bull terrier is by far the best equipped fighting dog

 

Answer by Jacob
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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HAS ANYONE IN THIS FORUM SEEN AN ENGLISH BULL TERRIER BEAT A GAME BRED PIT?.. or matched against, if so what were the results?

LETS SAY IF I WAS TO TEST A MALE, AND FEMALE BULL TERRIER, AND KEEP DOIN SO WIT THERE CHILDREN GRANDCHILDREN, AND SO ON FOR LIKE 6 YEARS... WILL MY BULL TERRIERS THEN BE GAMEBRED????

 

Answer by SHUT THE FUK UP
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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NO STUPID WHATEVER IS SAID YOU WILL AGRUE,ON AND ON AND ON.

 

Answer by 0
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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aussieowner. From your rantings it seems I may have upset you,tough get used to it the truth hurts.Tree hugging hippy no. A serving Royal Marine with two English Bull Terriers.A hypocritical do gooder no just a lover of the bull terrier breed which is more than can be said about the rest of you.

 

Answer by lorenzo
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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0> Death is very, very rare in matches (about your other post). True that after a match, the dog needs to rest some time. Obviusly gets hurt.
Define "to love" the breed. If your meaning of "love" is the same I know: who gave you the authority to say that "do gooders" (you anti fight) only have the right to love the breed? No, No. That's not like that.
A farmer "loves" the breed he breeds, and still sell them for hamburger.
You need first to understand realities of the world and leave appart for a while your idealism. Then we continue talking.

About the main question, EBT will win in very, very few matches against APBT. But still a great fighting dog if you find an individual that preserves gameness.

 

Answer by FUK YOU
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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so what do you what us to do?LINE UP AND KISS YOUR ROYAL MARINE ASS?OR DO YOUR DOGS DO THAT FOR YOU?[NO DOUBT]

 

Answer by APBT Owner
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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I own many APBTs and I have never intentionally fought any of my dogs, by nature they are dog-aggressive towards each other, and that is something I admire and am responsible with my research before purchasing the APBT.
I love the breed, I cherish everything great that comes along with the dog, no dog is perfect.
Anyone can state a considerable amount of flaws about any other breeds, my dogs are not flawless nor do I expect them to be.
When I hear someone criticize or assume that if you are a APBT owner that you are compensating for your lack of manhood, or you purchased an APBT to enhance your image, by these remarks you are not only assuming childish assumptions but also implying that all APBT are self-image craved is just idiotic. This is an outrage to all good APBT people! So because I own a APBT, I'm trying to look tough? Maybe due to these ignorant assumptions is the real reason why so many non-responsible people purchase pitbulls to achieve the image of just that. I love my dogs greatly and I would have it no other  way then to have them as game or as loyal as what they were bred for, I admire that trait. If fighting charecteristics in your dog's genetics does not appeal to you then leave the APBT breed alone and go purchase yourself one of the hundreds of other breeds. To the People who do fight dogs, let me first say that, I alone am in no position to judge anyone nomatter what they choose to do with any property or pet they own, my own feelings toward the matter is kept to myself for it doesn't/really change anything does it?
Better yet,judging dog fighters seems to promote more dog fighters. Reason I say this, some people who know nothing of the fighting APBT would more likely purchase one after they hear remarks and putdowns of how dangerous and wrong it is to not put-down this breed because of their dog-to-dog aggression, they are a menace to society and only thugs own them. Now really, how is this stopping an individual from obtaining a APBT, other then creating a negative version of advertising?

I am greatly offended when people think that all APBT owners are uneducated, when will anyone come to realize that no matter what subject people are debating about, good and bad, educated or uneducated individuals are involved.
Another thing I wanted to share with all APBT owners are, STOP ADVERTISING your kennels and dog names such as Killer,Monster, Brute, etc. Any of these names when comes to mind are painting a negative image of your dogs, and these breeders and dog owners are simply trying to sell to those (ignorant) owners that so many good APBT owners dispise. This is one of the main reasons we have so many laws banning this wonderful breed. No good family with children wants a dog named "Killer" from a kennel called "Monster" running around the yard with their kids.
You want to help this breed, change the image before you try to save it.
Hate what you fear, this is what I see from people against APBTs, then hate GSDs,ROTTS,MUTTS,LABS,etc. any other breed who has attacked a little child or persons.
APBT will always in my book be the best fighter, family dog, companion, and worker.
EBT versus APBT? Only the educated and experienced could say, but no single victor, or single act/experience can determine this debate.

 

Answer by Lorenzo
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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APBT Owner> Good post. Specially this: "If fighting charecteristics in your dog's genetics does not appeal to you then leave the APBT breed alone and go purchase yourself one of the hundreds of other breeds." and this: "To the People who do fight dogs, let me first say that, I alone am in no position to judge anyone nomatter what they choose to do with any property or pet they own, my own feelings toward the matter is kept to myself".
I needed to remark those sentences.
The main question is about APBT and EBT. It would be great to talk about that.

 

Answer by 0
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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Decent replies from some of you.FUK YOU PROVES A POINT.

 

Answer by APBT Owner
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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Lorenzo..

Reason I didn't quite get into the EBT versus APBT debate is because I see so many individuals on here posting things they not only know about but newcomers that obviously has no clue about not only the APBT but the EBT also. Another reason is why?
I am for the APBT hands down, so I wanted to share some views of mine that would shed some light on why this breed is in the state that its in.
I hope that someone with a heart for this breed will truly come to see my statements in my earlier post and take it in consideration, the more uneducated owners we have, the more the reputation of the APBT will fall.
NEVER JUDGE a dog then blame the breed.

 

Answer by 0
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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lorenzo.Farmers breed and sell cattle to make a living.Do you fight your dogs to make a living.As for the realities of life,I learned the hard way due to the nature of my job.

 

Answer by lorenzo
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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0> I don't fight dogs for living. But what if I did? I want to separate the concept of pet and working dogs. Border Collies help farmers with the cattle. They stay all day running, they often get hurted in rodeos. That also could be considered "cruel" for people who understand dogs only as pets. Pit bulls are working dogs, their work is to entertain people. I understand the opinion of all people who think dogs are just pets. They feel love towards them, so, it's imposible to imagine dogs fighting (either working in a farm or hunting). What I'm tring to say, is that dogs are not only pets. They are animals and as animals are under control of men. We could discuss about morality (in another forum), but my point is that dog fights (as hunting dogs), don't mess with morality if the concept of "working dogs" is understood. Also know that dogs rarely die during fights.
I undestand that is very unpopular to say what I'm saying.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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lorenzo- so what is your point?  you know nothing about dog fighting as a sport.  if you did it would be blatant why the general public is appalled.  it has nothing to do with understanding its the dogs job, the fights are unarguably violent gruesome attempts of the dogs to kill each other.  what could you possibly be thinking trying to defend this sport to the general public?  are you insane?  then you have the audacity to say that "they" just dont understand.    

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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here is a reasonable point:
in the fifty's and even as recently as the seventy's nine out of ten german shepherds were of working ability.  the same statistic is true of the doberman.  in those days dogs were drafted just like people to a certain extent.  most pet shepherds and dobes were able to perform the tasks they were bred for while in the war, ie. guard, patrol, scout, and sentry work.  today only one in 30 shepherds, and one in fifty dobes have the mental and physical ability to work.  the reason for the general decay of the working breeds; they have lost their jobs.  if you take a breeds "job" away the breed dies, only vaguely resembling its forefathers.  this goes for the pitbull and its purpose as well.  if it was only a fighter then let it die, but it is more capable in more fields than even the german shepherd today( speaking statistically).  these are facts.

 

Answer by PITS AND TOSAS ONLY
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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WWW.TOURYKAI.COM

 

Answer by pitbullowner
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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Wow so many uninformed opinions about the APBT. First off, the american pitbull terrier is the combination of several different breeds. Some breeds were used for their size,or agility, and others like the mastiff were used for their cold-hearted lack of emotion. All those breeds were put into one superior dog for the purpose of dogfighting. That dog is the APBT. Pitbulls are all game. Even if your pit if 25 lbs and Pure love and licks...it could kill anyother dog with few exceptions. Game doesnt have to mean agressive, it is knowing what they are. They may not go looking for fights..but if challeneged they will never back down. Remember this is what they were originally bred for. Not herding or pointing...just fighting. I am only writing this becuase the only informative information on here comes from cricket. He seems to know there is no other dog that compares the the power of a APBT. The tosa inu is Very large and strong, but the apbt is built low and wide for a reason..it gives them a huge advantage. Their heads are right at the necks of larger breeds..thus giving them the perfect angle to get the 'death grip' that is so famous among apbt. One bite and that apbt will not let go until it feels like the other dog is done fighting. So im going to wrap this up by saying that an apbt is the ONLY dog with enough pressure in his jaws to pop a fully inflated car tire. Now imagine that on another dogs neck ;)

 

Answer by Wellineva
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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My English Bull Terrier is ugly as, with the best nature in the world, not submissive, just a friendly family dog. After scrolling through this site, (not realizing at first what sort of planet I'd wandered to, and then going on with fascinated horror) I'm even more convinced its the owners not the dogs that are the problem.  No wonder its getting harder and harder to find a place where you're allowed to take your dog for a run without having someone think he's a lethal weapon.  

 

Answer by Michael
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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Sorry i entered my last post in the wrong forum.

 

Answer by 0
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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black-powder bob.From your replies you seem to have a good level of understanding of the bull terrier breed.All of these dogs were originally bred to fight that is not in dispute.Pit fighting is outlawed in some countries as is the pit bull.So the outcome of this means it goes underground attracting all forms of the criminal element or those with little or no knowledge of the breed that they now own.They in turn take these dogs onto the street prance around with their pit bull.It bites a few people has a few fights and their dog is the hardest thing on four legs or maybe Imeant two.My point is the dogs have never been at fault just the irresponsible owners.Now these peple loving fighting dogs have received a death sentence.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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O- agreed.  i wish there was a way to game test dogs other than fighting them.  you are a soldier, i am a boxer, nothing tests a man like combat.  it is difficult to simulate combat situations.  so too with our breeds.  how do we obey the law without loosing the stuff our breeds are made of?  the question is rhetorical i don't expect an answer but this is my and our dilemma.  

 

Answer by terrier
Submitted on 5/18/2004
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my english bull is white, female and is 14 years and 10 months old i have heard this is a very good age for aan english bull to live upto can you email me on lodgecharlie@hotmail.com if you have a bull terrier or wish to sell a puppy to me and live in the uk

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/27/2004
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true_pit i can tell you read alot of books you are a very loyal APBT fan which is good the the problem in this room is this chat room or whatever you call it is that most of these people are talking about street fighting their dogs not one of them has ever seen a true pit arena and id be willing to bet you have not either these boys talking about rots and dobies have no idea what they are talking about the dogs are big and mean but the truth about that is that they never would last in the true pit and up against a pit bull of any type for that matter so their is no reason to even get upset with them and try to provew your point now to deal with you i would in no way ever look down on the APBT but the truth be told they lose i have been to many pit arenas and amature dogs are not allowed in the arena talk about game these dogs are most peoples lively hoods so they spend hours a day training their dogs and i have seen many dogs come and many dogs go the problem is when you say APBT the greatest sure they can last for hours in the ring and sure they have stamina and more heart than an elephant but i have seen men take their time with BT and they do it right they create a killing machine something that you nor i could ever go up to and pet once the BT has been converted to a gladiator he is never the same he is just a wild animal at this point to where you can go up to most game APBT and pet them these dogs are great fighters but i would bet out of the last 5 dog fights i have been to maybe there was one BT most of the dogs are APBT or staffies another great fighter but this dog doesnt seem to have the stamina to last a good fight when i go to the ring i drop alot of money before the matches begin i walk through look at the dogs and 9 times out of 10 i put most of my money on the APBT which usually weighs around 38 lbs in the arena aggressiveness is not the key to picking a good fighter i look at the dog that looks like he is going to last and a small APBT is going to last next i look the dog in the eye and i stare if the dog doesnt break stare but just looks at me like he doesn't fear me that is my dog that is my bet but if there is a BT there I will drop money on them they are just fierce and just wild animals i am not very fond of the breed but you need to see one in action trained by a professional before you pass judgment now if you take a non game BT trained by an amateur and vs him against the game APBT trained by pro he  will have his hands full but pal i promise you this i have seen both dogs in action i would hate to bump into either one of them on the street if you want to talk in private email me @ cmann19078@yahoo.com remember do not argue with the guys that have rotties that kill any breed in seconds they have no clue what they were talking about if they were to ever see two bull breeds fight they would run crying in fear.......chris

 

Answer by slow down
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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dude you ever here of ,,,or ....?

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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ok, lets do this the right way. i just finished banging your mom, and she was sucking my cock, and i was rushing to get done. thanks for your concern. now go and blow your father like a good little boy. was that better slow down?

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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Dogos are a good match up.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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I do not know what country you are form, but, from what I read dogos make good watch dogs. and excellent for police work in other countries. I can honestly say I have never seen a dogo in action, I know the dogo is very popular in other countries, but in the USA not very many around. If the dogo was a great fighter the pit men of today would would be using them. The little bit I know about the breed he seems to be too big to make a great pit fighter. Maybe if he were to challenge some dogs on the street that were not bull breeds. He might be a good match up for them rotts,dobies,german Sheppard's, but bull breeds sorry not a chance.

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 5/28/2004
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Dogos are mainly bred to chase down and kill big cats and wild boar you terd.  Im from NY but im currently working all over S america, dogos are usually too expensive to get in the states thats why their not used. but here its another story listen ive had pits and their great but i wouldnt count out a dogo against a pit. why dont you look them up on the net and find out more about them it would probably be very interesting for you since you seem to know very little about this breed. and just in case , they are used in japan for dog fighting.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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terd nice wording the reason they are not used here is because it is not a good fighting dog if the dog was a good fighting dog the pit men would not mind the price to pay for a good fighting dog the dog is used for police work and "hunting" the dog is not for fighting it is pretty much a dobie in a white body you TERD i have a good book for you to read it is called GLADIATOR DOGS BY DR CARL SEMENCIC  not one mention of dogos but thanks for trying to push the dog and make him more than what he is.............chris

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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Your gonna tellme that adog that is meant to hunt jag cant fight. And your gladiator book only speaks of the original fighters see if you can find cordoba fighting dog cause thats where the dogo comes from buddy. Like i said study before you keep making yourself look ignorant.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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i am telling you your dogo would not last 10 minutes in the ring with a good game bred bull type dog the rhodesian ridgeback was used to hunt lion he is not used in the pit your dog may be a good street fighter against dobies pits and german Sheppard's but he would get killed in the pit the gladiator dog book speaks of modern day killers that are and very easily could be pit fighters at one time your dogo was tried in the pits it did not last read your history my man i dont want to make you feel like your dog is no good but i know 30 lb american pit bull terriers that will hurt your dog and fast like i said before i know professional men that make their living on this blood sport and if your dogo was so great they would invest the few thousand dollars or what ever the cost to import this dog i have been to many many many dog fights and never have i seen a dogo there they fall in the same class of dog as the rottie a great dog big and powerful but no they are not a good fighter nor is your dogo i bet you are or your family are from south america arent you.....chris

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/29/2004
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WWW.DOGO.ORG your Cordoba was a fighting dog but the dogo was not it was for hunting boar go to that sight and scroll down and go into dogo history ........chris

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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I know a bit about dogos. 90% of it's blood is bull and terrier (perro de pelea cordobes). It's origin is a fighting dog. He can fight but not the best. EBT is better and APBT obviusly even better.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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macker.........where is the response i figured for sure you would have an answer to that but i guess i shut you up...........chris

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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i never said it was the best fighter, and im from NY so ive owned pits right but i work for the international business and commerce department of the US so im in south america most of the time and you said game pit. i know dogos arent bred for fighting but ive seen plenty f pits lose to dogos here in many parks cause here both are very common. and im not sure about a truly game bred pit because a dogo isnt bred for fighting and there are differences ridgebacks were used to corral lions so that they can be hunted dogos cause of their heads are used to hold  animals. i know dogos arent bred for fighting but an average dogo can take an average pit about 50 percent of the time.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 5/30/2004
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like i said before a professionally trained game english bull terrier vs a game APBT will be the victor  8 out of 10 times hands down if the fight were to go any type of time the APBT will be the victor but alot of bull terrier fights end very fast with in a half hour i have seen these 2 breeds in action i would not want to be the one being attacked by either breed..........chris
  

 

Answer by triff
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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the staffordshire bull terrier is, pound for pound the best fighting dog on earth,there are still many game bred staffy's around and these are well respected fighters, in england they often go against other fighting breeds and will most often beat them. although most other fighting breeds are bigger and we no longer have any viable pitbulls, so it is difficult to find a match.

 

Answer by Jacob
Submitted on 6/1/2004
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the staffordshire bull terrier has a geeat look and all, but there actually not really smart dogs, and they tend to lack speed.


my father told me about the bull terrier back in like 97, and how my grandfather use to figh them in Cuba. he told me on how friendly the dog was wit them and with his brothers when they were little, the bullie would allow the kids to bother him and ride horsie, and the dog would act as if nothing was happenin,but then when he got into the ring he would convert into like this lil focused demon takin whateva was in its path.

just the site of a kid layin wit a pit terrifies people for the fact that they love eating kids faces, if this happened once ok, its exceptabale, but i see it on the news like every week, the pit is not a dog u could trust, its not as intelligent as a bull terrier. therefore its not a better dog than a B.T period

if a dog could beat a pit, and at the same time could play wit ur 4 month old, thats an incredible dog.

so as my father told me this i started gettin interested in the breeed, read mad books, and now have tremendous respect for them, my father was right.


 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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jacob- what books are you referring to?  i have read everything i can get my hands on concerning the bt and the apbt.  there are plenty of great books written on the apbt.  and they are written by people who could in some ways be considered the fathers of this breed in this century.  average hard cover can be purchased for thirty five bucks on amazon.com.  but when it comes to the bt i can only find about six or seven good and credible books that discuss the character and intelligence of the bt.most books written after 1982 focus on confirmation and show qualities and discredit the bt's fighting heritage.  what interests me about the bt is who owned them.  for instance; dr. leon f. whitney a breeder and scientist loved bt's  william koehler bred bt's  general patton was noted for his attachment to his bt.  two of the above mentioned are dog experts and had extensive experience with many breeds.  of all the breeds they worked closely with they both admired the bull terrier as one of their favorites.  todays bull terrier is a far cry from the dogs these men loved.  what books have you read that explain what we should be breeding for in todays bt's  if you have found something i haven't i would really be interested.  

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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i do not want to get into this argument but the staffie is a dead fighting breed they every rarely end up in the pit the you will never see a true book on the best pit dog in the world the only way i know so much about dog fighting is i represent i have been there and done that NOW BLACK POWDER BOB
if you read my last couple messages previous to this you will see what i have experienced and seen and i have seen a few BT in the ring and the ones i have seen are killers if you read books you are reading another persons opinion there is no correct book on the baddest fighting dog what you need to do is see a dog fight in action not on the street by an actual pit fight they are brutal and vicious the APBT is a great fighter but from what i have seen mutiple times not just once the BT will win i have been to alot of fights i enjoy watching two dogs fight i like making money off it these guys who talk about dog fights and their dog is the baddest around have never seen a pit fight or a street fight because let me tell you this the first time you hear a dog screaming because he just his leg crushed or his ear riped off or the blood splats and hits your face you would not appreciate the art of fog fighting you would probably never discuss it again so unless you see a dog fight do not argue with me the toughest breed on the block i have been there and i will continue to go there and BLACK POWDER BOB  if you wnat to discuss this with me more email me at cmann19078@yahoo.com i see you are interested in the art and you have read many books but i dont believe you have ever been to a pit arena ...........chris

 

Answer by Dave C.
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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People Please. I have been around the bull breads my whole life and know them to be the most loving and loyal dogs on the planet. They are also however the most capable other dog destroyers there ever was hands down positivly. I have a standard bred American Bulldog female 80 or so pounds that I run with every day. She is a great partner and can do two or three miles with ease. It never ceases to amaize me the irresponcibility people display regarding their dogs. To this date we have been chased by two german shepard mixes a chow a beagle a doxen and a who knows what kind of mix it was mutt. The doxen, and I am not kidding,  was by far the most tenatious of them all. It's owner had to run after it for several hundred feet before she finally cought the dog. It was right on our heels. I really enjoy the peace of mind that comes with knowing that if one of these running loose dogs ever gets into a brawl with mine my dog probably won't be the one going in for stitches. This is really getting long winded I will make my point. There is a lot to be said about having the toughest dog on the block but wallowing in this orginized dog fighting blood sport is beyond me. dog fighting is illegal and thankfully so. Breed specific legislation has banned these dogs that we enjoy in certain areas of our country and in others. Call anyone who lives in the U.K. or in germany and ask them how hard it is to get one of these dogs. By propigating this sort of  activity we are heading down the same road. I think you small minded people who think it is so cool to watch as your dog who so loves you is getting torn to shreds while you stand by with your bet placed are simply heartless. Get a life. Go for a run, and take your dog.

























 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 6/2/2004
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cmann19078- i think you may have misunderstood my post.  its o.k. i used several big words.  no i am just kidding, i will email you.  i am interested to hear more about your extensive experience in pit fighting with the rare bull terrier.  also your opinions on the joys of blood spattered fans and screaming dismembered dogs could teach all of us a lot about the bottom rung of humanity.  in your post you mentioned that the book gladiator dogs does not even mention dogo'syour exact words were; "not one mention of dogo's.  actually he mentions them on page 33, and has one pictured on page 35.  your info is just a little off but your passion is impressive.  i would recommend you read my previous posts at least half of them, there are quite a few.  

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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Jacobs post is full of Sh*t anyway. Just read it..lol

"just the site of a kid layin wit a pit terrifies people for the fact that they love eating kids faces, if this happened once ok, its exceptabale, but i see it on the news like every week, the pit is not a dog u could trust, its not as intelligent as a bull terrier. therefore its not a better dog than a B.T period"

I've been around APBTs since I was a kid. Number two just had a 4 month old baby laying on my house pit. 3rd try watching the lil rascals and those kids were with that dog all the time and Petey did many other shows and tolerated a lot of stuff, like any APBT. And lastly they are very intellegent dogs I don't know where you found that bull crap? I wonder how you measure intellegence. Also considering the APBT is probably one of the most stable and trustworthy breeds, how are the a dog you can't trust?

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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true_pitt if you ever look at the ban breeds it is full of bull breeds do you know what the number 1 dog for biting in the united states is it is not a bull breed and no it is not a rottie, doberman or a german shepard ....it is the cocker spanial more people in the usa go to the hospital for cocker spaniel bites than any other breed combined...........chris  

 

Answer by G.B
Submitted on 6/3/2004
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This was article I read a few weeks ago about Dog fatalities records from 1972 to 2002
as listed on strong an popular breeds.(RottWeilers)out of approx.900,000 thier has been 70 fatalities.(GermanShepards)out of approx:800,000 their has been 67 fatalities.(Dobermans)out of approx.600,000 their has been 35 fatalities.(St.Bernards) out of approx. 200,000 their has been 25 fatalities.(Great Danes)out of approx.60,000 their has been 12 fatalities.(Pit Bulls) out of approx.5,000,000 their has been 67 fatalities.Thier are a couple of other breeds on the list but I can't remmeber numbers but these ones I do remember,Now for you people who think Pit Bulls are so Dangerous and people agressive I think you are wrong because the studies show the chance of being killed by a PitBull is far less than the other breeds posted in those studies an those studies are know hoax they are real.So because you here Pit Bull names on the news everyday about biting people it's because there are so much more of them out thier than most of the other breeds and to many bad owners who just want to teach them to be bad when they can be really good family loving Dogs.Lets face it everybody the Pit Bull by the fatalities percentage is one of the safest dog to be around like it or not its the facts records prove it.

 

Answer by unknown
Submitted on 6/5/2004
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Listen, I'm going to make this as simple as I can. This is jus how it is and there's nothing you can do about it.

Dogs that can fight...

First Class
APBT
Tosa Inu

Dogs that have little or no chance of beating the first class...

Second Class
Dogo Argentino
Bandogg
English Bull Terrier
AmStaff
American Bulldog
Presa Canario
Bully Kutta
Fila

Dogs that have little or no chance of beating the second class...

Third Class
Caucasion Ovtcharka
Neo
Akita
Spanish Bulldog
Cane Corso
Ca De Boa
Gul Dong
Dogue De Bordeux
Guatemalan Bull Terrier
Indian Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier

And finally dogs that have no chance or little of beating the third class but can still hold their own...

The fourth class
German Shephard
Doberman
Rott
Shar Pei
Malamute
Bullmastiff
and other popular breeds(too many to mention)
--------------------------------------------
also...
Wolf Hybrids
Tibetan Mastiff,(and almost every other mastiff taht I didn't name)
Most of the ovtcharkas

Beleive it or not, when it comes down to, pound for pound that's just how it is!

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/7/2004
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I CANT EVEN ARGUE WITH THIS. THIS WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A TRUE AMERATURE PUTTING A LIST OF FIRST SECOND AND THIRD CLASS OF DOGS YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND ITS A TRUE SHAME YOUR PARENTS BRED WHAT AN ASSHOLE NOW BEFORE YOU GIVE BIG BOY ANSWERS TO A WORLD YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT GROW UP LITTLE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!11........CHRIS

 

Answer by yoyobigman
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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Hey chris before you wake up from your little wet dream that you little babies have, I wanna tell you the truth is truth and for people like you who dont want to understand it then proove me wrong and if you can't quite understand my list than I'm gonna make it a little more detailed for you just for a special amatuer kid like you so you better understand it... and you know what I'm gonna add some dogs to the list just for you... Thruth is truth kid face the facts, if not proove me wrong!!...


(All dogs are ranked as if they were GAME BRED)
If the dogs are not game bred then the fights outcome can be unpredictable.

Dogs that can fight...

First Class
- American Pit Bull Terrier
- Tosa Inu

Dogs that have GREAT potential to be First Class…

Between First Class and Second Class
- Dogo Argentino
- Presa Canario

Dogs that have little or no chance of beating the First Class...

Second Class
- American Bandogge (APBT/Neapolitan Mastiff cross)
- English Bull Terrier
- American Staffordshire Terrier
- American Bulldog
- Bully Kutta
- Fila Brasileiro

Dogs that have GREAT potential to be Second Class…

Between Second Class and Third Class
- Neapolitan Mastiff
- Mallorquin Bulldog (Ca De Bou)
- Gul Dong (If you dont know what that is I'll love to explain it to you. It'll be like 1st grade all over!)

Dogs that have little or no chance of beating the Second Class...

Third Class
- Caucasian Ovtcharka
- Cane Corso Italiano
- Spanish Bulldog, and Spanish Alano (could be 2 breeds, or could be 1)
- Dogue De Bordeaux
- Guatemalan Bull Terrier
- Indian Bull Terrier
- Staffordshire Bull Terrier
- Akita Inu

Dogs that have GREAT potential to be Third Class…

Between Third Class and Fourth Class
- Bullmastiff
- Alaskan Malamute

And finally dogs that have no chance or little of beating the third class, but can still hold their own...

The fourth class
- German Shepherd
- Doberman Pinscher
- Rottweiler
- Shar Pei
- Wolf Hybrids
- Chow Chow (yes, even the Chow Chow)
- Most of the Ovtcharkas
- A few Shepherds
- Thai Ridgeback
- Tibetan Mastiff, (and almost every other of mastiff origin that I didn't name, including the Boerboel and others)

Im gonna say this again...
Believe it or not, when it comes down to, pound for pound that's just how it is!

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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for the loser who has categorized fighting breeds , yu dont even know what yur talking about. bully kuttas can take on tosas , CUZ THEYRE THE SAME FRIKKIN THING!.("gamebred" mastiff like dogs)....and gul dongs (lol)...(they call bull dogs gull dongs in local dialect , cuz the poor buggers dont know any better ) are just like pitbulls......no difference really , theyre "gamebred" bull and terriers!.....and loser , bull terriers are not second rate , by any frikkin standard!  ciao

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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americans are good at making whats theirs , the best!...even if its not.......eng. bull terriers have "english" in the name , so that just wont do , will it?......the truth of the matter is , no bull terrier is soft , and all will fight to the end if need be , provided theyre properly introduced to the sport. they are as "gamebred" as they come , cuz thats what they were bred for!!...to fight any goddamn thing on this earth!...it can take the weight and strength of a bull or bear , it will face a lion....its muscles are tighter and stronger than the pitbull. they look like little white wild boars!..lol...and hink's puss fought with and defeated the old bull and terrier sort (just like the modern day APBT)....and then the breeds name was made. yu see , in a time where gameness was everything , dogs could'nt become popular based on looks alone. hinks was challenged to prove the new type and he did!....so , the bull terrier is both pretty and game , and theres nothing anyone can do about it!....tosas can get as big as bears , and bull terriers will still send them on their way!.....for yu novices out there , buy a bull terrier pup , raise it well , run it at a slow trot for an hour everyday after the age of 16 months , keep it on a raw meat diet , test it when its 2 years old......against an average dog....just so it acquires the taste of battle....and then pit it after 2 tries and yu'll have the best fighting dog in the world on yur hands!....some bull terriers fight better than others.....but none give up.....beware pitbull owners!!!.......all said and done , dogfighting is wrong , and should be stopped!......but there should be a legal way of testing yur dogs......like letting it go at it for 5 minutes with another dog under kennel club supervision.....maybe just once a year , just to keep the fight in its blood!.....so breeders know their stock!...after all , they ARE fighting dogs!......and once they cant fight anymore , theyre pretty much "useless"......i mean , whats a "fighting" dog that cant fight???.....y dont yu go and stop ppl from boxing??....just ban boxing matches and rings.....simple!...lol

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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bully kuttas have "lil or no chance" of beating tosas , presas and dogos??????...lol.....thats frikkin hilarious! and kohati bull terriers (indian) are third rate???....LMAO.....go write about something yu know!!!...dont waste everyone's time!

 

Answer by 52cmann19078
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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if you ask any great pit man they will never say which dog is the best fighter they will go by what they have seen and no one in their right mind would make a catagory like this you are a man that knows fighting dogs but have never been to a fight in your life you are just classifying dogs by what you think and do not know i will not argue with a man who even says the    german shepard or the rott or dobie are any kind of a fighting dog and better yet the dogo a second class fighter i am willing to bet this person barley breaks 18 by the way he talks if i were you i would not go telling many people this because a true pit man will laugh in your face AND NO ONE SHOULD ENTERTAIN THIS PERSON FOR HE WILL JUST MAKE YOU ANGRY i have been to many fights and the american bulldog a second class fighter of any of the large breeds you mention sorry pal too big to be fighting but one thing i Will agree with you tjhe APBT a first class fighter and also the BT a first class fighter the american staffie also a first class fighter have you ever seen a banddog fight or a tosa because i will tell youthe truth you never have unless your japanese ok little man get a few more years under your belt then argue with the big boys until then SHUT UP........chris

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/8/2004
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HEY KHAN please dont let this fool upset you like i said in the pass i will not argue with a fool who says a german shepard rottie or dobie is a fighting dog of any sort dont catch yourself doing the same you kknow these breeds are in no way ment to fight.......chris

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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chris is right. i'll bet yu guys a hundred dollars , dobies and german shepherds etc etc would run away from a cornered cat 8 out of 10 times!...lol

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/9/2004
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chris is right. i will bet yu guys a hundred dollars , dobies and german shepherds etc etc will run away from a cornered cat 8 out of 10 times!...lol

 

Answer by funny
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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  funny thread

 

Answer by twoday
Submitted on 6/11/2004
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  What country is this thread in??? I accessed this thread through a dog-man site..I suppose they wanted us to get a laugh. Bull terrier is a good dog but it's a long stretch from being a game bred pit bull......remember I said game bred, not one of those loosing cur pit bulls....

  Your knowledge on pit bulls is like your knowledge women before you got pubic hairs. Fight them once a year for five minutes....LOL...go to a dogmans site and post that crap and see the response you get...probably none as they'll think your an idiot.

   At least some on this thread, not having the experience of being in the box, have the common sense to know that the pit bull is the superior fighting dog. If there was another, they'd get it and bet their money on it, don't you think......that's right you already showed you don't think....duh...  

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/12/2004
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okay lil boy , i'll tell yu how it is. in pakistan everyone uses bully dogs. not cuz theyre the best fighters in the world , but because they are widely available , dont hurt each other too bad and are just plain popular. they bet money on these dogs. and according to you if i were to take a "pitbull" to these fights , i'd win. so y should'nt i , right??...theres one lil problem yu dork , NO ONE WOULD ACCEPT MY CHALLENGE!...they'd come up with stupid excuses , like "yur dogs too small , our dog would eat it alive",,and stuff like that. but they all know which dog is best in their hearts. but because its popular to keep bullys and its the dog of choice for whatever reason , even rich ppl who can get their hands on the best "pits" in the world , will stick with bullys....and will lose on occasion. and they too , are losing money.....yu get my point "dogman"???
lol...yu musta noticed , i kept saying "pitbull" instead of english bull terrier. i thought that would help yu understand....lol

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/12/2004
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hey khan i wrote something last night to TWODY about PITBULLS i guess he has no idea that there a few dogs classified as pit bulls huh that is what i told you before about guys that will argue that the rottie is a fighter dont argue with them it will just frustrate you for nothing. anyone that doesnt know there are different breeds of pitbull have no business argueing.................CHRIS

 

Answer by brassicaman
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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First in answer to the guy saying his rott beat his pitt that had "cropped ears and all", don't be so ridiculous what has cropped ears got to do with anything    apart from looking mean  ?  When will you guys realise that looking mean has no relation to fighting abiltiy.  Second not all pit bulls can fight in fact many of them are curs in fact most dogs are curs.  It is all about averages. pit bulls on average have less curs than other breeds.  so what is a cur  ? Well a cur is a dog that will not fight to the death and gives up at some point in the fight.  Most of you guys seem to think that because  your dog whips ten dogs in the park then it is a top fighting dog.  Get real most fights in parks are over quickly,top rated dog matches can last over two hours.  Have any of your dogs had a fight in the park for over two hours ??  if your dog has then yes i agree it is game. Gameness is the ability of a dog to fight and keep on trying no matter if it is losing.  Game dogs can fight even after having to fight on three legs when one leg has been crushed.  Has your dog done that in the park  ?  No it has not.  Very few dogs have fought for this long and the dogs that have are game bred pit bulls and only a very small percentage of these game bred pit bulls can even do that!!  Now what many of you guys might be trying to express is that your dogs have"ability".  This is different to gameness.  Abiltiy is the dogs fighting skill.  Some dogs are particularly good at fighting although are still probably curs.  There are some dogs on record that have defeated most of their opponents in under thirty minutes this is usually due to their ability and good "mouth" Good mouth means the ability to bite hard.  However these dogs have nearly always get beat at some point due to having no gameness. as soon as the battle turns against them they make a turn "turn to run" or turn to show "declining interest"  these are known as curs.  The most prized dogs are those that have 'gameness" and "ability", these are as rare as diamonds.  Nearly all of the time these game dogs with ability are game bred pit bull terriers. However only a few game bred pits even have this ability. Occassionaly tosa inu and a few times the English bull terrier.  The English bull terriers sometimes do show great 'ability" but rarely show gameness.  but this is much more than some breeds that almost never show it, such as the guarding breeds.  Guarding breeds are selected for guarding or man work not fighting.  A german shepard throwing itself in front of a knife wielding attacker is very brave and courageous but that is not gameness. Gameness in the true sense of the word can only be measured in the pit. in the pit the american pit bull is the choice of the dog men who sometimes bet large sums of money, it is the number one choice.  Forget the macho "my dog is the toughest in the park crap" lets look at facts.  Also one last point, dog fights are fought on an equal weight basis with only at most a few pounds given either way.  Talking about the best fighting breed should be strictly on a pound for pound basis.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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and kevin kane's full of crap..lol

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/13/2004
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hey Khan i couldnt have said it better myself ......lol.............chris

 

Answer by mario
Submitted on 6/14/2004
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how do u make your bully fiercer e.g food and training?

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/14/2004
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mix a little gun powder in his food makes them very aggressive if you want a dog you cant pet or trust..chris

 

Answer by noneed
Submitted on 6/14/2004
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You guys are sick.  Pitbulls are and have been bred to fight since before any of you were born.  Plain and simple.  For the people on here talking about my bull terrier did this and did that.  You are silly.  You bull terrier didn't go into a pitt bull that was bred to fight.  There isn't a dog alive that can beat a true game bred pitbull with bad intentions.  He will fight until he dies.  No other dogs are bred for this purpose.  Keep dreaming.  Can you name one person that is actively using bull terriers or any other breed other than a pit to fight?  No you can't.  Because there is not compeition.   Use your brain.  

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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after you guys feed your dogs gunpowder is it necessary to keep them away from open flames?  come on man, gunpowder.  the sad thing is mr. stratton had to address this myth about gunpowder on his website.  there are a lot of people who actually believe the gunpowder rumor.  its sad what some of you are willing to do to your dogs.  next someones going to write:  put motor oil in your dogs eyes then when they are dehydrated they can still look around.  or put a little nitroglycerin between his toes before the match so he'll really explode out of the corner.  or add a little freon to his feed the week before the match so he wont heat up so quick.  come on guys try to keep it at least a little real.  gunpowder is slow poison.    

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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i dont know the affects of gunpowder in dogs food but it does make them aggressive its proven the pennsylvania state troopers back in the 80's used this it made a very unpredictable dog i would never do it to a dog but yes it does make for an agressive dog no if ands or buts about it now  NONEED i bet you cant name one person that uses a PITBULL for fighting in the pit because u never been to a pit fight and the bull terrier is used in fighting today but not as much as a 200 dollar buy on any corner in any black neighborhood pitbull there are more pitbull dogs in the usa than any other breed most are abused or strays now why would you take a 1600 dollar on average for the bull terrier and use him for fighting this cuts down on prophets  and if it happens to get killed or broken spirit and refuses to ever fight again your out 1600 dollars you could have bought 8 PITBULLS for that price both dogs are great fighters but you do the math numb nuts by the way learn about all the different breeds of pitbull there are then come back to this room asshole........CHRIS

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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cmann- you better watch yourself; "a 200 dollar buy on any corner in ANY BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD".  all i am saying is be careful some people take words like that real! serious.

 

Answer by cmann19025
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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well lets face it where are most pitbulls sold at in black neighborhoods if i offended you sorry but it wasnt ment to be thought out like that i was just stating fact about the pitbull any black man will tell you that. it was not ment to offend anyone  see that now you made me feel bad about the way it was worded read the whole statement on why those words were being used like that then get back to me just dont point out certain parts of a statement to make someone look racist use the whole sentance the way it was...............Chris

 

Answer by cmann19025
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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well lets face it where are most pitbulls sold at in black neighborhoods if i offended you sorry but it wasnt ment to be thought out like that i was just stating fact about the pitbull any black man will tell you that. it was not ment to offend anyone  see that now you made me feel bad about the way it was worded read the whole statement on why those words were being used like that then get back to me just dont point out certain parts of a statement to make someone look racist use the whole sentance the way it was...............Chris

 

Answer by cmann19029
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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hey blackpowder bob  just to let you  know there is another man in this room that is also very involved in the world of pit fighting talk to jacob spoke to him many times on the pc also in person he has been there talk to him too.,.....chris

 

Answer by True_Pits
Submitted on 6/15/2004
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Gunpowder can make an "aggressive" dog. "myth" or not, its a killer and can kill your dog. It can make them aggressive do to the damage it causes, when dogs are in pain constanly they can be grumpy or even unpredictable. It doesn't make an aggressive dog, but does make a dangerous unpredictable one. Any dog that is in a lot of pain can be that way, thats why some suggest dogs with sudden aggression to see the vet and check for health problem.

black pwder bob you are so right. People seriously believe that. Bull Terriers aren't used in fighting because they don't excell. SOME may, but price is an excuse for them not to be used as a fighting. I don't know much about $200 but I do know about $2000 APBTs. I can point you in the direction of several APBTs breeders from REAL GAME DOGS to show dogs, but you won't be getting one for no $200. For the Bull Terriers that do make a match, it doesn't really matter the $1600? If you go to any Bull Terrier breeder and pay that much for a dog its probably going to be a cur, might as well buy an AmStaff for a grand while your at it too. Bull Terriers are show dogs you can't pick out any breeder and buy one for the pit. With $1600 I could get a couple nice APBTs prospects which I'd rather have over one cur Bull Terrier.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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truepits go and read some more books you know nothing, read the newspaper in the back animals for sale and look at pits for sale i guarantee you see all sorts of pits for sale around $200.00 another thing i guarantee most of them are for sale in black areas and the ones for sale in white areas are a little more money and would in no way make a pit dog just like the BT but if you take a man that trains dogs for a living to fight and give him a BT pup and a APBT both dogs and if the dog does not become "CUR" the better of the two athletes will be the BT answer me this when it comes to schutzand training why does the BT accell so greatly and why do they rarely use APBT because the BT is truly the better of the 2 now for a man who can point me in the right direction for a game pit please point me to the right direction i wan to prove to this room that you are a book reader not a man who has been there like i said before the APBT is a superior dog but it is not the only great fighter.......chris

 

Answer by brassica
Submitted on 6/16/2004
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please schutzand has nothing to do with a dog's ability in the pit.  i am a bt owner ok and i have experience in a certain field.  As i said before some ebt's have been used with moderate success and some ebt (ebt = english bull terrier) stafford crosses such as the stormer dog have been successful pit dogs, but in general they have not nearly had the success of the APBT.  A good ebt is a great fighter but on average they DO NOT excell like the american pit bull.  most ebt's are selected for show traits like a good roman nose and good skin etc etc.  the apbt was not selected on phenotype (what it looks like) but on what its parents have done in the pit.  This does not guarentee success but it does increase the chances and inprove the odds.  I do agree however that there are a few ebt'sthat have been selected for athletic ability that are far better than the show stock but these are a few.  these of course are sometimes better than a average to below quality pit but are very rarely better than a good game bred pit and have certainly never reached the top 50.  There have been some good ebt pit crosses like pirate or some good ebt stafford crosses like stormer.  now remember i love ebt's and have a lot of respect for them but egos should be kept out of it as i said before on average the pit bull is a better fighting prospect not always but on AVERAGE a better gamble than an ebt. On a pound for pound basis.  
Just like to add that i think ebt's are awesome dogs but lets stick with the facts. The ebt is a bull and terrier therefore there are some great fighters but most ebts are now  selected on show traits not fighting traits such as gameness and ability.

 

Answer by Frisby690
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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If you want a game bred check out mullet on this site. http://livewire.bappy.com/

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/17/2004
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BRASSICA for a change i am going to almost totally agree with something i was using the schutzand as an example but it plays a very big role not in fighting but in how well you can get the breed to perform the majority of BT owners do use the breed as a show piece and a GREAT guard for their home you cant argue with that and the dog makes an awesome street fighter you cant argue with that either but when you get a BT with the proper training and someone that trains for the pit if the dog takes to IT will become an awesome fighter no on average they do not excel well to pit fighting like the APBT but when someone takes the time and does it right the breed could be used in the pit like the APBT on an everyday basis the problem is the dog has not been used as a fighter for many many years so the dog has become an everyday friend to the family but it could become a great pit fighter with the proper training i have seen it happen with my own eyes sure there are far more great APBT than BT but the breed can one day be the great fighter it was have you ever seen someone take the time with this breed and use it in the pit i have i know its capabilities.........chris

 

Answer by brassica
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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Hi Chris
i understand your point about shutzand i mis-understood it at first.  Most dog men prize gameness over ability. personally i disagree and put ability first.  Historically some of the greatest pit dogs have been dogs with great ability.  these dogs never needed to have gameness tested as it was never an issue.  they defeated other dogs in record time.  An american pit bull terrier called champion Zebo is a good example.  i do agree that there are some ebt's out there that have great ability however most of them are jsut selected on show traits.  what msut be remebered is that they are still bull and terriers therefore you will alwasys get some with good ability.  for anyone to compare a guarding breeds fighting ability ona verage as breed to a bull and terriers fighting ability is jsut ignorant.  the key word here is "average", and the bull on terrier family on average is the best fighting family with the american pit on average being the best of that family.  I do agree with what you say about someone dedicating time this does have a very important role to play in training a fighting dog. confidence etc has a big helping hand.  anyway i love the english bull just standing by the on average the game bred pit is the best but to underestimate a game bred english bull terrier is a big mistake.  and yes there are some game bred dogs out there.
link for zebo info
http://www.dawnrestdogs.org/STORIES_ADAMSGRCHZEBO.html
link for stormer info stormer was half english bull terrier half staffordshire bull terrier
http://home.no.net/gamedog/psycho_vs.htm

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 6/19/2004
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i own a english bull terrier which is a great fighter,but after all my experiences with pitbulls,i would say that in general,a pitbull is muck stronger than the bull terrier.due to its very loose skin wich helps the pit a lot,and the pits speed,and the incredible jaw strength.on the other hand,the bully lacks the loose skin,and the incredible speed,but its Strong jaw helps it a lot

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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hey BRASSICA let me ask you this you seem to know know alot about bull breeds i own a levitt olde english bulldogge my family wanted a bulldog and i said no way i am not dealing with that nightmare the high vet bills due to poor construction of a dog but my question is what do you feel about this breed i know it is not recognized by any dog groups but for a friend and a guard of my kids when they are outside playing i feel he is a perfect dog he had his few share of neighborhod scraps i sware i never seen him lose against dobie rottie or the guy two doors down has a bandog he has beaten the hell outof him a few times both of these dogs are males but my OEBD is lightning fast i would never consider him for a pit dog for he is just a good old friend and would never last or make it but a good street fight is far from a pit never lasting more that 3 minutes now what do you know and think about the breed overall are you familar with the breed.........chris

 

Answer by sick bastards
Submitted on 6/20/2004
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you lot are sick bastards. making dogs fight for your own pleasure. i hope your dogs turn on u and rip your balls off.

burn in hell you wankers.

 

Answer by brassica
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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Hi Chris
to be really honest i don't know anything or nearly anything about the olde english bulldogge.  i heard they were nice dogs and credit to the guy for improving on the kennel club freaks.  by the way sounds like you have a nice dog there.  

 

Answer by Vaca
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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Hey Brassica,
Are you the same guy who owned the old tyme bull terrier site?
I am very interested in healthy athletic EBTs.  I used to post on your message board.
Reply back and let me know if this is the same guy so we can get in contact via e-mail.
Take care

 

Answer by Vaca
Submitted on 6/21/2004
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Hey Brassica,
Are you the same guy who owned the old tyme bull terrier site?
I am very interested in healthy athletic EBTs.  I used to post on your message board.
Reply back and let me know if this is the same guy so we can get in contact via e-mail.
Take care

 

Answer by brassica
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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post up your e-mail and I will send you mine

 

Answer by Vaca
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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robtheironman@aol.com

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/22/2004
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Brassica where are you from.....chris I have another question for you to prove something to someone in this room ill ask you later my wife is comming and she hates this stuff

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/23/2004
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brassica have you ever seen a BT fight someone i have been talking too has a BT that is friendly and i guess he has trouble in seeing the killer side in the BT. i have seen the breed in action, and i have seen someone with a BT that won the 3 times. i have seen the dog fight and all three times were againgst a APBT. i have spoken with the handler who will now only use a BT. i have not seen this man in years to tell you the truth i have only ever seen one BT walking the streets with a man. the breed is very rare I have a 8mm camcorder tape with a few dogs fighting on it one dog being a BT and the other being a tosa batteling what appears to be a neo mastiff. i have never really seen 2 large breeds fight except in this tape and it seems to be a toatlly different type of fighting more like two big dudes pushing each other around. also can i have your presonal email address i have something for you to see..........chris

 

Answer by brassica
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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I am about to send my e-mail to rob.  I would prefer not to post mine up here for various reasons.  can i suggest you post yours up and i will send you mine or that you contact rob and he can send you mine.  on and btw i was originally from uk but now i am living in south east asia somewhere.

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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i would greatly appreciate some pictures or videos of dogs u guys own or have owned or any other intresting things you have if u do decide to send me some stuff the send it to m_risky39@hotmail.com

thanks

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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maximus ............what breeds of dogs are you interested in.

 

Answer by FiGhTeR
Submitted on 6/25/2004
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ders nutin sik bout dogs fitin if u look whilst dey do it der tail is up which means dey r happy n wen u take dem away dey beg 4 mor!!

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 6/26/2004
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i like terrier types. i have two staffordshire bull terriers myself but i am definately going to get an EBT or an APBT for my next. but i would appreciate anything you can be bothered to send, im not really fussy i just want to gain alot more knowledge about the subject.

 

Answer by brassica
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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bull terrier message forum at

http://pub6.bravenet.com/forum/438791835/fetch/348393/

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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theres nothing like an EBT. no dog can match the character and nobility of this breed. properly introduced to the sport , all ebts will fight to the end. they are the best of the best. the best of the bull and terriers. the white cavaliers , gladiators of the canine race. i've owned pitbulls , bully dogs , kohatis , bully bull terriers and ebts. and i was most impressed with this particular breed. they are all good dogs. infact , they are all great dogs. but theres something special about this breed. something different. they seem oblivious to pain . always ready for a fight. and then another. they dont know how to lose. they are born winners. and if a dog dies trying , he is still a winner. the english bull terrier is the dog of all dogs. a dog that will not fight unprovoked. but will never surrender once attacked. and a dog that loves its family with all its heart.

     hinks of birmingham
     hinks of brum
     found the bull terrier
     a tattered ol' bum
     made him a white un'
     made him a right un'
     for a gentleman's chum


  

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/28/2004
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sorry , thats "made him a dog for a gentleman's chum".....and "made him a right un'" precedes "made him a white un'"....lol..same thing

 

Answer by Mack
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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Before answering questions on what breed can defeat what breed, you should look at dog fighting history in England. The 18th century Bulldog which was a longer legged and more athletic animal was used in bullbaiting and badger baiting. After outlawing Bull baiting, dog fighting became popular, thats when they crossed Old fashioned Bulldogs with different types of terriers. Terriers being more athletic with great prey drive. These dogs were the first true game fighting dogs and they were called Staffordshire Bullterriers. APBT's'were an extension of SBT's and when imported to America were given a different direction than Staffordshires. Staffordshires were then bred for conformation and APBT'sswere bred more on the lines of gameness in the fighting pit. Staffordshires are the most people friendly dog in the world and always trustworthy, whereas APBT's consistently bite people. APBT's since bred exclusively for fighting are the only true fighting dog.Staffordshires are small and are courageous. They will fight anything alive and will not provoke and not all APBT'scan say that having a lot of curs in their bloodline. If any of you knew a real Champion ABPT Champion meaning open to all weights Worldwide, will know that no other dog can come close. These dogs are rare and are not normally people biters.
Never confuse these Pitbull owners that give the breed a bad name with a true fighing dog which most people will never see. Do your reading and check history. The Bullterrier breeds came up the hardway and their gameness is because their loyalty to please people not harm other dogs. Dog fighting is cruel but is a part of life and only professionals should even attempt it.

 

Answer by t
Submitted on 6/29/2004
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you prrix are givin english bulls a bad name which they dont need right now especially after princess anne your going to get them band

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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no ones givin em a bad name. i'm just referring to their great fighting heritage. dogfighting should be banned. its cruel. but these dogs were bred for a reason and the bull terrier excells at its purpose. but the good thing about these dogs is that they dont "look" for a fight. so they dont need to be fought. unlike the other "gamebred" and "rare" pitbulls ppl keep talking about. dogs that were bred for only one reason apparently. and no ones calling pitbulls "weak". i know that "some" pitbulls are amazing fighters. and believe me , i've seen em all. the same way "some" pakistani bull terrier crosses are amazing fighters!. but theyre not pure!..just like pits!. they have no proper standard. and as yu said . lots are curs!. well , purebred fighting breeds have lil or no curs!. and all of them will fight if need be. and thats make them breeds worth mentioning and admiring. the best fighting pits have EBT blood in em. now YOU go and study up on that!. what do u think makes em better fighters.??. better blood! i'm serious when i say i've kept em all. but theres nothing like a purebred!.

 

Answer by Mack
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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First of all I am a Staffordshire Bullterrier owner. I have owned ABPT's as a matter of fact the bloodlines were from Boudreax and some Colby Lightner bloodlines. I also had a grandson of The famous Going Light Barney, who was World Champ for 5 years. These were Fighting bloodlines but had good tempermant with men. EBT's were another product of the early Bulldog-Terrier crossing which formed all the Bull and terrier breeds we know today. The White Cavalier as their sometimes called was bred with the Old English White Terrier which has been extinct for sometime. They kept the characteristic egg shaped head and bred that into the conformation. This breed is not a fighting breed!, it is a show breed. You can find an individual of any breed that will fight, some to the death. The only dog that was born to fight is the APBT, again an extensive of the staffordshire Bullterrier. They love the combat with tails wagging and eagerness to please , but sloppy breeding and careless ownership has put a burden on this animal. Tosa's, Akita's Rotts, Doberman, Bandogs, german shepherd and even Huskies have been introduced to fighing in history. I dislike fighing because I love animals but I do understand the History of the Bull and Terrier breeds and there is one true game fighting dog, the APBT and the EBT is bred for comformation not the ability to fight in the ring. I love all Bull and Terriers especially the Staffordshire Bullterrier which started it all

 

Answer by ash
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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i have a staffordshire bull terrior english and hes been in 3 fights none my fault 1. with a boxer my staffie axle one 2.bull terrior by the time i got axle off  the bully had to be destroyed and axle lost 2 teeth 3. was a rotty x staffy witch i dont think he won but it only went for about 30secs

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 6/30/2004
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its true that hinks was a showman. but what no one mentions is that he was an animal baiting enthusiast as well. he wanted a "fighting" bull terrier with a distinctive look. simple!. but he would'nt sacrifice the dog's fighting ability in the process. and he did'nt!. the EBT is not just any dog. it is a true fighting breed. like the staff and amstaff. they are all cousins. closely related. and its not that "some" EBTs will fight. all will fight. and the EBT had to beat the old sort to prove itself. and it did. APBT enthusiasts will disagree. and come up wit their own versions of the story. but it does'nt make them true. i've seen EBTs fight like devils. EBTs were used for dogfighting and hyena baiting in pakistan on a large scale. and the breed stood up to its reputation. sure , some modern day dogs , with exaggerated heads may deflect from the dog's function. and may cause certain breathing problems. though i dont think theres any truth to that theory. initially , the egg shaped head caught the fancy of many a dogowner in england. and quality WAS sacrificed for that awesome head. but breeders in the early twentieth century realized what was going wrong and started incorporating staffy blood back into the EBT. thats where the modern dog gets its color from. the original EBTs were only all white. and the new improved EBT WAS THE BEST FIGHTER AROUND. and more recently EBT blood was introduced to many modern fighting APBT bloodlines. to increase tenacity. as it was to tosas , dogos etc etc. study up.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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  ash , was the EBT a 3 month old pup?...sure sounds like it....lol

 

Answer by Mack
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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Ash was just making a statement like we all are. The Staffordshire Bullterrier is my choice for the best of the Bull and Terrier breeds because of his devotion to children and older adults. There is still a lot of fire in these dogs although when raised with any animal they can live in harmony. All Bullterrier breeds are tenacius some like the Staffordshire Bullterrier are Brachycephalic causing some breathing problems and the early Bulldogs were no exception. Look at the Modern English Bulldog, they can hardly breath at all. I'm not sure about the EBT and breathing problems but I know they are not as balanced physically as the STaffordshire or the ABPT. This causes 1. lack of spring from the scratch line. 2. lack of drive from thier hindquarters. 3. good neck and head balance for grabbing and shaking. 4. eyes placed to look perfectly forward. These traits were bred over and over by the Duke of Hamilton the earliest known breeder of fighting dogs, and that actually kept records. In conclusion Kahn, you seem like a enthusiastic and devoted dog lover and I applaud you that, and your experiences seem to be plentifull, but if you have ever known a breeder of World Champion fighting dogs, Someone who has coveted balance, temperment, gameness and devotion then they will be APBT owners. Again I prefer Staffordshire Bullterriers over all Bull and Terrier Breeds but I can still be confident that the only true Pit fighting dog is an APBT.

 

Answer by yoo
Submitted on 7/1/2004
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LISEN LOZ U STUPID DIKHED STAFFS R OUSSIES JUS KOS DEY LK LIKE PITS DUN MEAN DER HARD U FISH U SOO BLAITENLY AINT A FIGHTER

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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  the EBT has the most tightly packed body of all the bull terrier breeds. the strongest neck and the deepest chest. and do u really think its hindquarters are weak.???..lol...okay , whatever. and eyes set to look perfectly forward???...so can pits see backwards?...lol...bull terriers are built like wildboars. with naturally stiff muscles. theyre equipped for the job. believe me. and yu forgot  , they seem oblivious to pain. a major factor in any fight. bull terriers have been tested in the pits of today. and have won. they are just as good as any other fighter. but are 5 times as expensive to buy. and are plagued with health issues after 5 or 6 years of age. and have puppy problems as well. and are therefore , not popular with the dogfighting class. too much trouble. a pits just as good probably , with half the headache.

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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my boxer beat a bull terrier at alocal dog run in NY.  it didn't take him very long either.

 

Answer by carolinaboy
Submitted on 7/2/2004
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personally I think all you people is lyin bout your dog killed somebody else dog, I mean come on most of the time in dog attacks the dog get put to sleep and I have 1 red knose pit and he is well trained and would never attack anything unless it was provoked and in that case he would kill but no one should have pride of a aggresive pit.

 

Answer by ha ha
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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yeah right your boxer beat an ebt, in your dreams mate, in your dreams.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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your boxer did not beat any bull terrier. Id bet my life on it . wait can i take that back. maybe it was a 3 month old puppy. come on macker this a room for the big boys not boxers. I dont think a boxer in its prime could take a sick bull terrier.

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/3/2004
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it's true buddy. you sseem to think that just cause it's a from a breed that was used for fighting its always gonna win. like i said before and i hate having to repeat myself so many times. many of you just read books or simply speculate, many dogs could beat other dogs regardless of the breed. like i said in other posts i'veseen pits and tosas lose in fights against various breeds including mixed breed dogs. and the ebt was 10 months and my boxer rocco was 14 months. you guys are amateurs and probably just kids with your first dog book and alot of imagination.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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bull terriers have been in my family for generations. no boxer can beat a bull terrier. yu said it was at a run in NY and "it did'nt take long either". lol. maybe  , cuz the BT was just a pup , it got confused when attacked and did'nt know how to respond to this "new" situation and yu probably pulled em apart before it could. believe me macker ol' boy , never let yur boxer at a BT ever again. it might have to pay with its life. once a boxer attacked my bt on a morning walk. my dog was on a leash. the boxer was loose. and it ran up and pounced on my dog. the owners of the boxer did'nt know about bull terriers and thought it would be fun watching the small dog get roughed up. but well after maybe a few seconds , the boxer got caught by the throat and after ten more seconds , its mouth started foaming. and it started makin these weird squealing sounds as if it were gonna die. the boxer owners did'nt look too happy then and started blaming me for the fight. lmao. lucky for them , their dog lived!. cuz i managed to pull the bt off quick (5 minutes)as he was already on a leash and collar. and the boxer got away with stitches and "bedrest". lol. now thats a true story.

 

Answer by ian b uk
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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pound 4 pound a english bull is the best all round fighter.now you yanks  go on about bigger doggs that wiegh 10 20 pounds more .letts put tyson in a ring with nasseem who will win mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

Answer by stupid idiot
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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my jack russel killed a great dane the other day............. it got stuck in its throat grow lads

 

Answer by argentino as-well
Submitted on 7/4/2004
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I will put all of your daubts to rest, I will be posting 2 videos of EBT VS Staffy'sand Rotties on the net, where the EBT Kills the Staffy and seriously cripples the Rottie before the owner steps in to stop the fight. The fights were in Villa De Voto Argentina circa 1998. Oh, and by the way the EBT Faught both dogs the same day. I will be posting the videos soon, and will be selling footage on Ebay.  

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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hey argentino as-well,
can you tell me where will you post these videos,and where can i find them

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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ian b uk- tyson was a has been before naseem (one s) even had a name.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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the bull terrier was bred for fighting, but failed.  it could not compete against the bull and terrier crosses of the time.  it survived though due to its other admirable qualities.  in that way it is similiar to the boston terrier.  both failed in the pits, but were kept around by admirers.  the pit bull was bred for fighting and fighting only.  the body of the pit came about by breeding winners to winners.  not so with the bull terrier.  the head and neck shapes came about by breeding winners to winners. not so with the bull terrier.  the bull terrier is not designed to be successful in the pit.  it cannot breath as well.  it cannot move as well.  it cannot last as long.  it is not as game.  the pit bull has more than a century of game breeding in its blood.  not so with the bull terrier.  the pit bulls abillity and fighting strategies have been maintained only in the pit.  not so with the bull terrier.  the bull terrier is a genetically inferior animal in both its health and its fighting abillity.  the bull terrier today carries the same blood as its predacessors, inferior blood.      

 

Answer by G.B
Submitted on 7/5/2004
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Hey Argentino as-well where an when will you be posting  these videos for sale man, I would also like to obtain them to see the real truth about these EBT'SI keep hearing about.

 

Answer by carolinaboy
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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lies all yous guys tell is lies none of yall REALY fight dogs because you wouldnt be claiming it all over the web because if you got caught they use it against it in court a real dog fighter would keep it on the down low

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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video of staffies and rotties?!  seriously, who cares?  why not get some footage of these "magical argentine bull terriers" fighting pit bulls?  by the way where have these game bull terriers been hiding the last hundred or so years?  has it been some conspiracy against us pit bull fans?  suddenly after thirteen or fourteen decades you guys come out of the woodwork sporting your super-secret bull terriers "that arent like the other bull terriers" because yours are game?  never mind the fact that dogmen have never seen them before?  never mind the fact that in order to be proven game they would have to fight game bred pit bulls?  somehow youve managed this without any of the pit pro's knowing?  and now we are supposed to believe that youve had this secret game dog all this time kept somewhere like argentina?  please!  give me a break.  so you guys have a couple good bull terriers, congratulations.  dont make it more than it is, you got a couple good dogs, not great dogs, (because then they would have a few titles to back up your claims right) but good dogs.  so go ahead sick your bull terrier on some poor unsuspecting cur if that makes you feel good.  but dont try to tell me you stand a chance with a real game dog in a real match.  i mean please, i am still trying to get over that gunpowder idea.              

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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bull terriers have and still do ,beat and even kill pitbulls. no one wants to admit it. instead they wanna believe the "versions" of the story they read in books. all written by pitbull enthusiasts. find a bull terrier enthusiast and he'll tell yu that they are second to none. they are still being fought in the pits in tashkent and azerbaijan. regularly beating the best pits. brought over by ppl for this very purpose. they are fighting in argentina and brazil as well. regularly beating any opposition. hinks was not "just" a showman. he was an animal baiting enthusiast. and that is precisely y the BT was his greatest project. to breed an elegant fighter. something that can fight , and still be "shown". and he succeeded. i've seen them fight. dont tell me theyre not game. one of my bull terriers got a severe beating from a gul dong at a fight in taxila. lasted 45 minutes non stop. and he was'nt in the best of condition. and had'nt been properly prepared. he was dead tired. lying on the ground panting , while the other dog kept chewing on him , and then when even i thought it was over , he got back up and went straight back at him. biting hard and fast. and he did'nt let go till the other dog turned. the bt won and the whole world was there to see. he was later crowned the champion of the frontier , unopposed. even by the largest bully dogs. some as big as english mastiffs. and game fighters. so dont say that the bull terrier is not game. dont say it has inferior blood. cuz all the lies in the world dont wash the truth away. i once saw a 4 month old female puppy get attacked by a 2 year old fighting dog , only to retaliate and hold on to the attackers ear with such one-minded resolve. so vicious was her demeanour that i could'nt believe it. she held on till we finally managed to pull her off. and the 4 month old wanted more!..lol...not game??...ahaan. similar to the boston terrier?...dont make me laugh. cant breathe??..and is still referred to by all dog books as the supreme canine athlete. including american books..lol...its supreme athletecism is mentioned everywhere. its "oblivious to pain" nature is mentioned everywhere. its stubborness is mentioned everywhere. its powerful jaws and muscles are mentioned everywhere , but still some fools choose to believe that "the bull terrier was bred for show and not for the pit"..they choose to believe that fool kevin kane...lol...they say the same things fight dog fanciers of the time said to hinks. "yur dog is too soft". its true they often run into health probs after a certain age. 6 or 7 years of it. past their fighting prime. and maybe some dogs with overly exaggerated heads really cant fight too good , but the average , healthy adult BT can take on any dog , and win!. i own a great pitbull..and i love the dog , but i still know that my 6 year old bt female could take him. there is no bias. its just the truth. if they had inferior blood , i wonder why they were mixed with "ordinary dogs" to make them great. in every book , it says "and BT for added tenacity"....not game??...lol..hilarious. they were added to the dogo , a formidable hunting machine. holding on to wild boars twice their size!. they were even added to tosas. to bully dogs. to indian bull terriers and beardogs. to "pitbulls". lol. add bt blood to any breed and it becomes more "game"...inferior blood????..lol..again , my tummys starting to hurt.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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bull terriers have and still do ,beat and even kill pitbulls. no one wants to admit it. instead they wanna believe the "versions" of the story they read in books. all written by pitbull enthusiasts. find a bull terrier enthusiast and he'll tell yu that they are second to none. they are still being fought in the pits in tashkent and azerbaijan. regularly beating the best pits. brought over by ppl for this very purpose. they are fighting in argentina and brazil as well. regularly beating any opposition. hinks was not "just" a showman. he was an animal baiting enthusiast. and that is precisely y the BT was his greatest project. to breed an elegant fighter. something that can fight , and still be "shown". and he succeeded. i've seen them fight. dont tell me theyre not game. one of my bull terriers got a severe beating from a gul dong at a fight in taxila. lasted 45 minutes non stop. and he was'nt in the best of condition. and had'nt been properly prepared. he was dead tired. lying on the ground panting , while the other dog kept chewing on him , and then when even i thought it was over , he got back up and went straight back at him. biting hard and fast. and he did'nt let go till the other dog turned. the bt won and the whole world was there to see. he was later crowned the champion of the frontier , unopposed. even by the largest bully dogs. some as big as english mastiffs. and game fighters. so dont say that the bull terrier is not game. dont say it has inferior blood. cuz all the lies in the world dont wash the truth away. i once saw a 4 month old female puppy get attacked by a 2 year old fighting dog , only to retaliate and hold on to the attackers ear with such one-minded resolve. so vicious was her demeanour that i could'nt believe it. she held on till we finally managed to pull her off. and the 4 month old wanted more!..lol...not game??...ahaan. similar to the boston terrier?...dont make me laugh. cant breathe??..and is still referred to by all dog books as the supreme canine athlete. including american books..lol...its supreme athletecism is mentioned everywhere. its "oblivious to pain" nature is mentioned everywhere. its stubborness is mentioned everywhere. its powerful jaws and muscles are mentioned everywhere , but still some fools choose to believe that "the bull terrier was bred for show and not for the pit"..they choose to believe that fool kevin kane...lol...they say the same things fight dog fanciers of the time said to hinks. "yur dog is too soft". its true they often run into health probs after a certain age. 6 or 7 years of it. past their fighting prime. and maybe some dogs with overly exaggerated heads really cant fight too good , but the average , healthy adult BT can take on any dog , and win!. i own a great pitbull..and i love the dog , but i still know that my 6 year old bt female could take him. there is no bias. its just the truth. if they had inferior blood , i wonder why they were mixed with "ordinary dogs" to make them great. in every book , it says "and BT for added tenacity"....not game??...lol..hilarious. they were added to the dogo , a formidable hunting machine. holding on to wild boars twice their size!. they were even added to tosas. to bully dogs. to indian bull terriers and beardogs. to "pitbulls". lol. add bt blood to any breed and it becomes more "game"...inferior blood????..lol..again , my tummys starting to hurt.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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bull terriers have and still do ,beat and even kill pitbulls. no one wants to admit it. instead they wanna believe the "versions" of the story they read in books. all written by pitbull enthusiasts. find a bull terrier enthusiast and he'll tell yu that they are second to none. they are still being fought in the pits in tashkent and azerbaijan. regularly beating the best pits. brought over by ppl for this very purpose. they are fighting in argentina and brazil as well. regularly beating any opposition. hinks was not "just" a showman. he was an animal baiting enthusiast. and that is precisely y the BT was his greatest project. to breed an elegant fighter. something that can fight , and still be "shown". and he succeeded. i've seen them fight. dont tell me theyre not game. one of my bull terriers got a severe beating from a gul dong at a fight in taxila. lasted 45 minutes non stop. and he was'nt in the best of condition. and had'nt been properly prepared. he was dead tired. lying on the ground panting , while the other dog kept chewing on him , and then when even i thought it was over , he got back up and went straight back at him. biting hard and fast. and he did'nt let go till the other dog turned. the bt won and the whole world was there to see. he was later crowned the champion of the frontier , unopposed. even by the largest bully dogs. some as big as english mastiffs. and game fighters. so dont say that the bull terrier is not game. dont say it has inferior blood. cuz all the lies in the world dont wash the truth away. i once saw a 4 month old female puppy get attacked by a 2 year old fighting dog , only to retaliate and hold on to the attackers ear with such one-minded resolve. so vicious was her demeanour that i could'nt believe it. she held on till we finally managed to pull her off. and the 4 month old wanted more!..lol...not game??...ahaan. similar to the boston terrier?...dont make me laugh. cant breathe??..and is still referred to by all dog books as the supreme canine athlete. including american books..lol...its supreme athletecism is mentioned everywhere. its "oblivious to pain" nature is mentioned everywhere. its stubborness is mentioned everywhere. its powerful jaws and muscles are mentioned everywhere , but still some fools choose to believe that "the bull terrier was bred for show and not for the pit"..they choose to believe that fool kevin kane...lol...they say the same things fight dog fanciers of the time said to hinks. "yur dog is too soft". its true they often run into health probs after a certain age. 6 or 7 years of it. past their fighting prime. and maybe some dogs with overly exaggerated heads really cant fight too good , but the average , healthy adult BT can take on any dog , and win!. i own a great pitbull..and i love the dog , but i still know that my 6 year old bt female could take him. there is no bias. its just the truth. if they had inferior blood , i wonder why they were mixed with "ordinary dogs" to make them great. in every book , it says "and BT for added tenacity"....not game??...lol..hilarious. they were added to the dogo , a formidable hunting machine. holding on to wild boars twice their size!. they were even added to tosas. to bully dogs. to indian bull terriers and beardogs. to "pitbulls". lol. add bt blood to any breed and it becomes more "game"...inferior blood????..lol..again , my tummys starting to hurt.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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  and btw , u keep hearing , "my pit beat a rottie"..." my pit beat a presa"..."my pit beat a tosa"...."my pit beat a rat"..lol....but never "my pit beat an EBT"!!...hmmm...wonder y.....

 

Answer by Mack
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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I've been polite and tried to be helpfull and hopefully give some insight until now. I tried to tell you that the first Bull and Terrier's were from the Staffordshire area in England and all Bull and Terrier breeds worth a dam are from there. The APBT is the only breed bred to fight for over a 100 years. They were bred for gameness not head shape, leg shape, chest size or color, just their gamesness in the pit. You will be laughed at by real Pit dog owners. Never go on their sites. I have heard people and their stories about this dog beating that dog. I have never mentioned anything about seeing dogs fight because I don't have to. The people who own game ABPT'a dont respond to BS, because they know the truth. There have been some real knowledgable people on this site and they are few and far between. They know as I do there is only one dog bred to do battle in the pit the APBT. All the stories out there are just that stories and all you illiterate numbnuts out there do your self a favor take up porn on the net, at least you won't insult intelligent people trying to school other people on the subject at hand. EBT, show breed I don't care what they do in Pakistan, Argentina, South Africa, India or any where in the World, I don't care if they beat a APBT, Tosa, Bear, Lion, Akita, Rot, or an Elephant you will never convince any knowledgable owner of a Game APBT that the EBT is anything but a table scrap eating curs. Body wise they fall about 3rd or 4th on the list in the Bull and Terrier breeds. Big chests, Egg shaped heads mean nothing when a schooled Pit dog has the EBT by the leg or ear.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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in the late 19th century , dogfighting enthusiasts were mostly of the lower classes of society. the rich had started to disassociate themselves from the sport , although they still held secret events. EBTs were fighting dogs which started winning at the shows for their elegance and beauty. and this development was so sudden that only the rich had access to the breed almost from its creation. the lower classes could'nt afford em. and therefore hated em. and they stuck with the staffies , which were'nt bad fighters themselves. the dogfighting classes later took their dogs to america. and then the legend was born. "the invincible pit"...and the propoganda bagan. and carries on to this day. just watch "fahrenheit 9 11 "..it'll give u a taste of the power of the media. the pitbull fans wanted their dog to be crowned king..and they made sure of it. pits are just so popular in the states that no one even considers buying other dogs for fighting purposes. no one even knows that there are other breeds that can fight. and even when ppl are told , the response is always , "but a truely game pit can beat the pants off yur dog"..lol...the power of the media. books , tv shows , popular culture , the internet.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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SOMEWHERE LIKE ARGENTINA?????...there is more dogfighting in argentina than in probably the states and canada combined!...lol...shuks..

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Im moving two Cyprus soon and am thinking of getting a load of Dogs while im over there. I now that i could have a pack of Dogos, Filas or Corsos living together (being brought up together from pupphyhood) without to much fuss as ive seen it before. However i was wondering if i could have a pack of EBT or APBT or SBT living together or would they end up killing each other? or if anybody knows of any other breeds good at living together the please let me know.............m_risky39@hotmail.com

 

Answer by daveyboy
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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Black powder Bob
            I read some of your post in the past. You have no clue on what dog is capiable of what. I see most of these men are from other countries, If i remember correctly dog fighting was created in England and other countries. Pakistain is still very active in dog fighting. And come to think of it i believe it is still very legal. So they do not have anything to worry about they can fight what ever they want with what ever they want. The reason we use pitbulls in the USA is because of its availability. You can get a pitbull any where. In other countries you can get any breed you want. So when the man argues he has seen the bull terrier defeat pitbulls you would be better off believeing him than a man here that realy only has seen pitbulls fight because that is the only breed really fought over here. Not because it is the best fighter but because of how readly available the dog is. All of you pitbull lovers maybe you might try to get another fighting breed and seed the results for yourself.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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now daveyboys makin some sense. the rest of yu really dont know too much about fighting dogs. all yu know is what yu hear. how many of yu have actually seen pit fighting?...probably none..lol

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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" schooled pit has the EBT by the leg or the ear"??...lol...do u think the EBT cares if yur dog is the legendary "pitbull" or not???..lol  ...it will put yur dog in its place...i assure yu of it....for every leg , it will break two...cuz thats what it was bred to do....there are no dogmen in the US....not really....come to pakistan and see real "dogmen"....ppl who fight dogs regularly....and know everything about the sport. its like old england out here boys. welcome to the big leagues!

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/6/2004
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davey boy, "you have no clue on what dog is capable of what".  the pit has been tried against every breed possible.  it wins.  you cannot argue that the bull terrier cant breathe as well.  its head inhibits it.  this is a physical fact.  if this sort of head was the most effective dont you think it would have evolved in the pit instead of the show ring?  also your saying that america doesent have a grasp on dog fighting because its illeagle, doesent hold water.  there are a great many illeagle things we americans are very knowledgeable about.  

khan- your whole argument about the bull terrier being to expensive is hillariouse.  champion pits cost thousands, and thats if you could get their owner to part with them.  you say i know nothing about dog fighting?  read the posts.  you are an ameture with an ametures perspective.  "for every leg it will break two".  dogs who fight to get even loose to dogs who fight to win.  "there are no dogmen in the us...not really".  there is no way an ameture like you could search my country successfully for "dogmen".  in the early days of dogfighting in america we had nothing to prove, it was just winners to winners.  thats the beauty of the pit bulls history.  now you, an ameture, with something to prove goes crazy about a couple good bull terriers youve found.  congratulations i hope you have the abillity to show YOUR amazing line of bull terriers to the world soon.  by the way we arent going to go to pakistan or argentina to fight your magical mystery bull terriers.  you see the AMERICAN pit bull terrier holds the title and you are just challengers.  if you have something to prove we are waiting.

you guys are so funny.  all i do is state the facts.  every single word i have written is true and can be proven simply by looking at a picture of a pit bull terrier and comparing it to a picture of a bull terrier.  i have never called anyone any derrogatory names or blown up on anyone, like so many of you have.  its because i have nothing to prove.  i call it like i see it.  
all of your cussing and name calling and accusations remind me of a cur with his fur up and his tail tucked.  real pit dogs arent into that whole "threat display" thing like you guys are.        

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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i am in no way saying that pitbulls are not great fighters. the best of em can beat any dog. but yu ppl have to know that it can also be the other way around. the best EBTs will also beat any dog. they are both great fighting breeds. and there are other "mixes" that can fight like devils as well..lol...so there are no "definites" in this sport.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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btw , i think you're the amateur. yu dont even know how to spell the word.lol. a "dogman" who does'nt know that other breeds can fight  ,  is not truely a "dogman". does not have the exposure nor the experience. you have'nt seen all there is to see. see , i'm at it again. convincing ppl who cant be reasoned with. my mistake. peace.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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"you guys are so funny.  all i do is state the facts.  every single word i have written is true and can be proven simply by looking at a picture of a pit bull terrier and comparing it to a picture of a bull terrier"........now THATS funny!!!...lmao

 

Answer by Corvino
Submitted on 7/7/2004
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Hi Khan, just wanted to let you know of a few facts. I've read most of the streams posted and there are several gentleman who are somewhat knowledgable in the sport of dog fighting. Believe me in the United States there are only a handfull of true owners of tried and tested dogs willing to go the distance. Dog fighting is international and there are several breeds used for this sport. The World Champion at this time is held by an APBT. This breed has held the title for many, many years. The World Champion at this time has fought in 14 Countries under very secretive conditions. I have been custodian over 154 sanctioned fights in my life and have seen the greatest dogs in the last 25 years. The World Championship is a weight qualifying match and there are dogs which will open up to all sizes if the interest or money is good enough. I don't want to disillusion you or break your spirt but a Bull Terrier has never been involved in any of the sanctioned fights I have witnessed. The breed that is exclusively in these matches are APBT although some are dually registered as American Staffordshire Terriers. I'm afraid a Bull Terrier even in prime condition cannot face these fantastic athletes. These matches can go for hours and a prime conditioned Dog is lean and not always what a fighting dog would look like. Make no mistake about it, the APBT is the exclusive fighing dog of the World but that doesn't mean that they are trained or born in the United States. I have witnessed matches involving various Terrier mixes in the Far East and other Mastiff mixes and although these dogs were formidable looking a World Class dog makes short work of the matches. Like I said they normally only use APBT in these matches because there will not be any monetary interest in any other breed. I hope you love your Bull Terriers as much as I do Horses but I warn you against trying to find out how well they fare in the pit with World Class dogs. Bull Terriers are handsome in their own right but leave the fightiing to the very, very rare few who still find the sport viable.

 

Answer by shadyyleee
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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corvino how much do they weigh

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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two years ago , dogs from all over the world were brought over to azad kashmir for a huge event. pits from the US , staffs and BTs from england. the best local dogs from around the country. and some other breeds as well. and the pitbulls won many matches. so did the bull terriers. there was one match with a bull terrier losing to a pitbull. and two with pitbulls losing to bull terriers. i know. i've seen em. bull terriers properly introduced to the sport will fight to the end. and they are incredibly brave , strong and stubborn dogs. and so are pitbulls. like i said , i own both breeds. and love both of them. i have nothing to prove. and have nothing against either breed. there is no bias. i just "know" that bull terriers can fight. and i "know" that they can fight anything. my suggestion to you is to find a great EBT , prepare it yurself and just try it a few times. "introduce" it to the sport and yu'll know what i'm talking about. you ppl may be the dogmen of the US. but there are other dogmen in the world. just learn to give others the benefit of the doubt. arrogance is not good. it destroys ppl. i admit , both breeds are great breeds. and none has the advantage. now if yu take a show BT to the pit , thats has'nt been properly broken in , it will get hurt. but it still wont run. or quit. but it will lose. take the time with the english bull terrier. and it will show yu that it is true to its title. thats it truely is the "gladiator of the canine race". nothing in this world gets a title for nothing. respect is never "on sale".

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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another truely gamebred dog for yu enthusiasts is the "true" kohati bull terrier of northern pakistan. almost always kept by the pathan ppl of the frontier. these ppl guard their dogs with their lives. they will not sell. they will give a pup to the ppl they respect. and those ppl are few and far between. yu see , i'm not an amateur. contarary to what yu want to believe , i've seen way too many fights. and now i'm getting sick of em. now i just keep dogs as pets. mostly.lol. the true kohati bull terrier is an EBT cross. and has been with the maliks of kohat for decades now. close to a century actually. these dogs are "gamebred" , like ur pits. nowadays lots of ppl claim owning "kohatis" , and what they have to show for it is a cur or a white mix of any sort. true kohatis are rare. and they can take on any dog in the world. any dog. take ur world champ pit to kohat. find a purist. pit yur dog and see what happens. yur dog may win. but there are very real chances that he may lose. again , arrogance is not good. it is a weakness. unlike yu , i never claimed my dog was the best. if i ever did say something to that effect , it was probably in response to some stupid comment i just could'nt digest. all the best fighters are just as good. depends on the individual.

 

Answer by Corvino
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Shadyyleee, There are several weight classes that are commonly used, They depend on the weight of the World Champion and other qualifiers. 45lbs to 50lbs, 51lbs to 55lbs even 55lbs to 70lbs. Rarely are the dogs fought at more than 60lbs Pit Weight. In my formentioned stream dog fighting is International, the events Khan must be mentioning are a local event and I'm sure other countries bring their breed to place bets on. World Championships are a more discreet and contestants are only Champions of 5 or more wins open to the World each. I mentioned there are other breeds used in the sport, I don't have a preference to the APbT as a breed and I dont claim to be arrogant at any level, I just happen to be in the know. I am not even born in America, so you cannot use that American loyalist dribble on me. I just happen to know the World Champion Dog, an APBT of 52lbs a little less pit weight. This is an amazing animal with good tempermant and ring skills that are unmatched. I cannot even fathom some of the various breeds people mentioned although I can only tell of the reigning breed of Champions.

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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Khan.....how did the Staffs from England match up to the other breeds?

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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there was only one staff ,which did'nt do that bad actually.most were pits. it was pitted against a smaller bully bull terrier cross. and the fight was broken off at 20 minutes. the owner claimed he just wanted to "test" his dog and that twenty minutes was enough. the dog looked well prepared though. very lean. ribs visible. fight condition. but the owner did'nt wanna see it through. for whatever reason. but the staffy was'nt bad at all. and yeah , pitbulls are the champs in the US. no doubt about it. and they can fight any breed. but there ARE other breeds that can challenge it. and win. its a two way road.and actually , i WAS born in america. my comments are not anti american. i love america , believe it or not. i just know about fighting dogs cuz i've seen a lot of em. and i've seen a lot of pit fighting as well. and i've owned all sorts. and i only keep "game" fighters. and i've seen EBTs fight . and i've seen em win. against the best of em. game as hell. they were'nt imported from the US or england even. they were imported from tashkent and bangkok. i was specifically asked if i wanted "game" puppies or show type. and i got exactly what i asked for. dogs with nasty attitudes towards everything except their owners. dogs that backed down from nothing. yu see , bts are fought in central asian states at huge farms. "dog" farms. theyre like huge kennels. bull terriers were imported there from england etc many years ago. and were put back to fighting. and now , a few generations down the rd , their dogs can fight anything. theyre very different from bull terriers in the states. atleast from the ones they show on tv and in the movies. and their heads are not that exagerated. they are like the bts of the 50s i think. but the point is , pibull owners are not the authority on fighting dogs. and everything yu read is not true. pits are popular. and are widely used. but it does'nt mean they're the only great fighters. end of story. the champs yu mention are american champs , not world champs. the world is a big place. lol. this is'nt WWF. lol.."world heavyweight champ"...crap.

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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im from lebanon,and idont know about you guys,but over here,when somebody comes with a pitbull,we take a big laugh,cause beleive me,the pit will get torn apart.We have Tosas that are brought from other countries,and ebt that are bred over here,and a couple of dogos (argentino).And only a foul will try puting his pitbull with any of these dogs.Once my cousin came back from africa with a champ male pitbull,so we aranged a fight v.s my female bully,and man did that pit get his ass kicked,although he didnt give up,until my cousin desided to end the fight,cause his pit was really messing up.but then again,that's just over here in Lebanon.

 

Answer by daveyboy
Submitted on 7/8/2004
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If i remember correctly the english were fighting dogs long before the "AMERICANS" ant their infamous "AMERICAN" pitbull my family has been involved in dog fighting since dogfighting was legal in the u.k when it became an illegal sport my family still fought dogs they were jailed for this sport. Now the "AMERICANS" sware on this "AMERICAN" pitbull for only one reason that is all they know it is just funny how in the countries where dog fighting is legal they rarely use your AMERICAN pitbull which was developed in the U.S.A I will tell you this the sport was mastered in  the U.K and before dog fighting was banned we used the English Bull Terrier which was the master of the pit and after the sport was banned we still used the EBT i talked to my family which was involved in the sport for many years and they all agree the EBT was king of the ring now that the sport very rarely takes place in the U.K anymore I asked my great uncles what they thought of your breed and they all agreed a great warrior but they also agreed that you dont bring a knife to a gun fight the knife stands little or no chance just like your dog they also told me dont argue with you bloody fools for it will just drive me crazy they said never have a battle of wits with an unarmed man meaning you fools only know one breed of dog the "AMERICAN"pitbull and if you were ever to get the chance to experience one in action you will never argue again with that in mind i will never post again for i have the truth and i know of all breeds not just one like you fools have a good day and remember broaden your horizons there is always some bigger and badder than you think good day lads

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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this is for all those pit owners losing to COs from russia in detroit. now listen up , "dogmen"..lol... most pitbulls in the US (WITH NO KAVKAS EXPERIENCE)...will lose to COs.  but i know of dogs that will beat them easy! beardogs. or bearbaiters. like in pakistan. and pits can be trained to do the same. yu see , its not dog vs dog. its dog vs a dog with thick fur. like a bear. its impenetrable. and the COs greatest advantage in a fight. no grip for the bull terrier. but if dogs were specifically trained to attack the face region (nose and jaw in particular) or the hind legs , the CO would be in trouble. thats what pakistani beardogs do , they attack other dogs only on the nose and mouth. thats y they cant fight ordinary fighting dogs , but can bring down bears. the nose is a soft target and its bleeding can lead to the dog taking blood into its nostrils and choking on it.that would kill any dog. thats y the bear gives up once grabbed by the nose. and the bull terriers keep flying for it , cuz theyre trained to. these dogs are never used on dogs cuz they dont know how to fight conventionally. and if they grab the other dog's nose , it can be fatal!. so the minute some pitbull owner in the states realises this and starts training his dogs to attack like a beardog , the COs will start losing. but such pitbulls can then only be used for CO fighting and not regular pitfighting. cuz if another pitdog grabs it by the throat or stifle, it wont let go and the beardog will keep waiting for a nose grip and it'll probably be too late. but COs dont have a terrible grip and as soon as the beardog gets a chance , it'll latch on to that nose and "GAME OVER"!
another tip from the "amateur"!...lol

 

Answer by Maximus
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Khan.........if another dog grabs another dog by the face wouldnt it be an advantage for the dog who is biting? So if your dog is not trained to bite the face does that mean that CO's would win that particular fight?

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Khan..........i was just wondering if you have ever seen a Minature English Bull Terrier? or better yet have you ever seen a mini EBT fight and if you have how do the match up?

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Daveyboy, If your ancestors were totally honest with you they would tell you the first fighting dogs were Staffordshires and that the American Pitbull is practically the same dog or once was. The Bullterrier is another dog bred on different lines than the Pitbull and the Staffordshire. All the Bull and Terriers have been fought in history and the American Pitbull and Staffordshire are probably decendants from the Blue Paul. The Bullterrier was accepted by the Kennel Club first and they stopped fighting them for the most part shortly there after the Staffordshires was still fought and didn't get the acceptance until later in 1935. The American Pitbull is an English dog brought over here from immigrants. The Americans just kept the all important ability to fight in the forefront. Whats this stuff about Detroit anyway, have you been there. Thats not a safe place for a lot of you. There are a lot of Pitbulls in Detroit (whats a CO, and I havent seen one ever in Detroit) unfortunatly and I'll admit it having lived there, most of them are curs and just bred to say we have a Pitbull. Breeding should be done to better the breed and all others with faults should not be allowed to breed. Too many illness's are killing our Purebred dogs at this time and selective breeding is the only way to keep the recessive genes in check.

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Daveyboy, If your ancestors were totally honest with you they would tell you the first fighting dogs were Staffordshires and that the American Pitbull is practically the same dog or once was. The Bullterrier is another dog bred on different lines than the Pitbull and the Staffordshire. All the Bull and Terriers have been fought in history and the American Pitbull and Staffordshire are probably decendants from the Blue Paul. The Bullterrier was accepted by the Kennel Club first and they stopped fighting them for the most part shortly there after the Staffordshires was still fought and didn't get the acceptance until later in 1935. The American Pitbull is an English dog brought over here from immigrants. The Americans just kept the all important ability to fight in the forefront. Whats this stuff about Detroit anyway, have you been there. Thats not a safe place for a lot of you. There are a lot of Pitbulls in Detroit (whats a CO, and I havent seen one ever in Detroit) unfortunatly and I'll admit it having lived there, most of them are curs and just bred to say we have a Pitbull. Breeding should be done to better the breed and all others with faults should not be allowed to breed. Too many illness's are killing our Purebred dogs at this time and selective breeding is the only way to keep the recessive genes in check.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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my bt female always grabs the other dog by the lip and jaw...or the side of the mouth. and sometimes by the throat. and she almost always gets cut. but she finds a good hold soon and although its a dangerous hold , she manages to see it through. her lip and area around the eyes is almost always cut a lil. but never too bad. cuz when a dogs attackin the mouth , it'll get cut itself , but will do more damage to the other dog. if the attacker gets the hold first and fast ofcourse. someone was mentioning that COs from russia were winning in detroit. on another thread. and was claiming that he had witnessed many champ pits losing. i came up with the only explanation. i've seen bull terrier and koochee fights in pakistan. an experienced bull terrier (who knows how to handle all that hair) gets the job done quickly. and its usually a face hold that does it. or a stifle hold. i guess same goes for the ovtcharka. and i "know" that beardogs in particular go for the nose. always. cuz thats how theyre trained. if the pits go for the face and stifle , they'll take care of any ovtcharks. and the nose grip is a "killer". yu should see bears turn over and play dead as soon as they get caught by the nose..lol..they actually lie down and guive up. but its still very cruel. the bears are declawed almost and their teeth are blunted out. but it still takes courage taking those incredibly hard slaps. and especially when the bear sits on a dog or something. crazy stuff.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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i've seen em but no , i've never seen em fight.

 

Answer by Mike
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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People, how can you argue about the dumbest things? Let me “school you” on this...

"True" APBT can beat almost any breed lets say about 97% of the time. (Note: I said 97% of the time not to hurt your feelings)

Here is why this statement is true. I came up with this from many ears of experience with the breed and knowledge of the breed.

True APBT - It is very rare to find a pure APBT or Am Staff nowadays because the two breeds have been crossbred so many times. People who know little of the two breeds have the wrong picture of an APBT in their heads. When they think of APBT they see an Am Staff in their heads. The big, wide head, medium size, heavily built. The APBT on the other hand has a much smaller head still has the most incredible jaw muscle but much smaller head, and not to heavily built. It has to be agile, and very quick to have the upper hand. Now because of that people that don't know anything crossbreed them not knowing what they’re doing. Thus the two breeds (Am Staff & APBT) that were once one will soon be one again. Sad but true. Of course the true APBT will live on… only underground where they reign supreme as kings of the pit.

Now for those Giant APBT they're not any better fighters than any mastiff breed (when I say mastiff I mean Large Dog). I wouldn't even call them apbt because they're more like am staffs. One breed 2 different purposes one for fighting other for show thus is the reason for appearance differences between the amstaff and apbt. The giant apbt is strictly for show and shouldn't even be worthy of the name APBT. The giant APBT...  what a joke...  if your king size poodle, rottweiler, or whatever non pit fighting breed of dog you got beats one of these dogs don’t run around bragging that your dog is a apbt killer because your dog wouldn’t last a second with the true APBT. End of story.

As for the APBT history there are over 100 diiferent stories. Personally I beleive that the immigrants brought Staffordshire Bull Terriers to the U.S. in the early 1900’s. They then selectively bred them to be larger in size than the original Staffordshire Bull Terrier thus producing the early American Pit Bull/Staffordshire Terrier. In 1936, the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier became separate breeds. One was specifically bred for looks (show). Gameness was basically bred out of it, and the other was bred specifically for fighting, which meant it was all game.

- Mike

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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hey khan,
what you said is interesting.but what if i told you that my friend owned two gull terrs.and they were both "go for the nose " fighters.but i was amazed when one of them had a fight with a kavkas ,and lost in just 7 minutes.although i had my money on the gull terr,i was amazed by the strength of the kavkas,and purchased one after 5 days.my kavkas is 8 month now,and she's already kickin pitbull ass,and many other breeds like bully kuttas,staffs,and tosas.i also own a female bull terrier,she's one hell of a fighter,she's 11 months old,she has won 8 out of 10 fights till now,but I never consider fighting her with my kavkas,case i know that she will kill him in minutes.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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it does'nt mean the CO would win. but it means the pit wont get a good hold. wherever he bites , he'll get a mouthful of hair. its like bull terriers vs koochees in pakistan. same thing. dogs that gest past the hair easily win. dogs that cant, get hurt. but after a few tries , dogs DO get the hang of it. but beardogs are particularly trained to go for the nostrils. as were bull baiters in old england. the CO does'nt stand the slightest chance against a "smart" dog. to a beardog , a gigantic CO will probably be like a small bear. and it will go straight for the nose. course it might get bitten , but dogs always get hurt in fights. but a dog that grabs anothers nostrils can injure it fatally. blood floods the throat and the dog starts choking. beardogs can kill other dogs , if they get that crucial hold in the first few seconds , but they are not particularly trained to fight other dogs. miniature bull terriers could probably fight dogs their own size or even larger ones. never seen em fight though. but they have the same blood. probably make a good match of a staffy or a small pit. go to the "apbt vs caucasian ovtcharkA " thread for the CO STORY IN DETROIT.  and doc , daveyboys ancestors were'nt wrong. no ones denying that pits are staffs with longer legs. but remember , bull terriers beat staffs. and ppl who say they did'nt , lie!...in a time like that , no dog would've been crowned gladiator if he really was'nt. dogfighting was common. and dogs were plenty. and so were dogmen. they tried em all. ppl who claim the bull terrier could'nt fight and lost are just defending their dog of choice. the dog the lower classes could afford with ease. bull terriers won at shows almost instantly and were hence , expensive!...but think about it , would rich ppl , in a time like that , actually keep and praise a dog that couldnt fight????....do u actually think they were'nt used in the pits???..and they did'nt win???...lol...watch "snatch"..its a "recent" brad pitt movie...they've shown a london dogpit for a lil while in one scene...as the camera moves past the pit , they show an EBT standing over a dead pitbull. and the chief "dogman" preparing a bt in a cage by aggravating it with a stick. do u actually think theyre never used to fight anymore???..sure it was just a movie , but y show bts. Y show a "dead" breed...especially when the world's watching. the movie aside , thats just hollywood , no dog could've gotten itself crowned "gladiator of the canine race" for nothing....shows in old england were still a new prospect for dogowners...men still wanted game dogs...no matter what...that they could be taken to shows and win there as well was a bonus...just try to accept for once , thats bts are great fighters. not home raised american sorts , but ones that have been and continue to be used in the pits worldwide. yu heard the gentlemen from argentina , lebanon and england itself!!...how much proof do u need?? and dont get after me , calling me an amateur for mentioning a movie....lol..i just said that cuz obviously most of yu are influenced by popular culture and the media....cheers

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Do you reckon the mini EBT would be a good fighter maybe because the are so aglie? or are they just too small to do any damage? Khan...............i'll give you my e-mail address if you have any pictures of your dogs i would greatly appreciate the gesture and assure you that i would not put them any were else on the net only for my personal collection..................................m_risky39@hotmail.com


 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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mini bull terriers are small. but so are staffords. and theyre muscular , stubborn and strong just like their bigger counterparts. i guess ppl just never fight em cuz theyre so damn cute..lol..but i guess if someone really wanted , they could pit em against smaller dogs. and dogs with great grips can even bring down larger adversaries. but i have no experience with the mini. just speculation. and for marc , is yur friend pakistani?...must be. and gull terrs are bull terrier "variants". some are'nt as good as others. theyre not pure. maybe yur friends gull terr just was'nt a "great" dog. if yu think yur eng bull could take ur kavkas....which i'm sure she could. then a good paki bull terrier cross etc could take it too. but yes , a good one!...not a cur. and there are many good ones out there. the nawab of kalabagh i hear , once bought a dog that single handedly took out a bear ,  for around 70000 dollars (US)!!!...crazy , is'nt it...but the nawab had the money...and the dog was a kohati...a pure dog..and a great dog. and for maximus , i lost loads of pics cuz of some stupid computer virus 3 months ago. it killed my hard drive..damn thing...i had tons of pictures....but i'll scan some more just for you  :)  .  and try to do it soon. i'll add yu to my msn messenger list if yu want.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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and if yu meant that the kavkas would kill the bull terrier in minutes. well no dog kills a bull terrier in minutes. NO DOG!...its a bull terrier , not a shihtzu. i once saw a kavkas kill a yorkshire terrier or something in minutes at a dogshow in lahore. lol..poor owner. he was getting pics of his dog taken after he won a cup. and a crazy kavkas standing next to him suddenly turned and attacked him. and killed him almost instantly. but then again , it was NO bull terrier!. the kavkas would have to bite thru pure muscle , hard as a rock..and then take the punishing bite it'll get in return , with the savageness only a bull terrier could produce. and then deal with an indomitable animal. which is gonna want the kavkas dead , as the fight progresses. and will do everything it can to make sure of it. killing a wolf is a piece of cake compared to fighting a bull breed. any bull breed. and once the bull terrier finds its best grip , its not going to let go till it either breaks something or cuts thru a vein. these are killer dogs. pure and simple. if theyre fighting bull terriers , theyre killers. if they've never fought , theyre just housepets. remember that.

 

Answer by malasia
Submitted on 7/9/2004
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Is it just me, or is Khan stinking up this page?  Find yourself another room, Khan, I haven't heard any intelligent debate since you started running your mouth.  Yeah, EBTs kill everything in their path...they're ferocious!!!  

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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no , theyre not!...they cant fight!...theyre not even a fighting breed!....theyre like ummm cocker spaniels or basset hounds or something!...lol...malasia , whats "not" intelligent about saying that a kavkas wont find it easy to hurt a fighting breed???...oh yeah , i'm sorry...i forgot to use the word "pitbull" instead of EBT...hmmm...now i get it....lmao....and that makes my posts "dumb" , right???...okay...lets do it so even a moron like yu can understand what i was trying to say..."pitbulls will give good match to COs and cant beat em easy with a lil practice"....was that less "stinky" for you???....or should i degrade the EBT a lil more so u can sleep easier at night???....lol......okay , all said and done , y dont yu give us yur 2 cents on the issue.....lets hear yur "intelligent" blabber.

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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hey khan.
i didn't mean that my co will kill my bully,i said that my bully will kill my kavkas smartass

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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hey "malasia" , i said "any bull breed"...read the post...if you CAN read that is....and replace "bull terrier" with "pitbull"....it'll make you feel better and my posts will seem more "intelligent"....LOL

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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Khan I have to agree with Malasia, please go to another site so your EBT biased opinion will not have to be seen. Start your own chat page, please. You haven't convinced any of us intelligent open minded dog lovers about the EBT, just because you own one. Each person who buys a dog breed and reads their breeds books are biased and the books are biased. I know that anyone with true pit dog knowledge, knows the only true fighting dog, in the pit. Not in a park, or some circus show where all these different cross bred dogs fight. In the beginning there were only 3 domesticated breeds that came from Wolves, all interrelated, but only 1 true game fighing dog came from this the American Pitbull Terrier. I hope all of you out there will tell Khan, we have had enough, of this EBT crammed down our throat. Each breed is beautiful and has its own function. Working dog, herding dog, sight hound, hunting dog, etc. Please everyone tell Khan what is the gamest breed alive and maybe he will go away.

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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Khan I have to agree with Malasia, please go to another site so your EBT biased opinion will not have to be seen. Start your own chat page, please. You haven't convinced any of us intelligent open minded dog lovers about the EBT, just because you own one. Each person who buys a dog breed and reads their breeds books are biased and the books are biased. I know that anyone with true pit dog knowledge, knows the only true fighting dog, in the pit. Not in a park, or some circus show where all these different cross bred dogs fight. In the beginning there were only 3 domesticated breeds that came from Wolves, all interrelated, but only 1 true game fighing dog came from this the American Pitbull Terrier. I hope all of you out there will tell Khan, we have had enough, of this EBT crammed down our throat. Each breed is beautiful and has its own function. Working dog, herding dog, sight hound, hunting dog, etc. Please everyone tell Khan what is the gamest breed alive and maybe he will go away.

 

Answer by LP
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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I dont agree with training and matching up  dogs to fight, but i take interest in which dog would win which, in theory.
All you people seem to forget all the other terrier breeds when you mention a dog you think would win whatever fight.

I once saw and english bull terrier X wire haired fox terrier absolutely rip to pieces a rottweiler to the extent it looked like the bully X was playing with him.

I own a german sheperd cross labrador, and I would never train a dog of mine to fight, but i know they can look after themselves. My german sheperd X labrador once had a fight with a pit bull and although if the pit locked onto him it would have been game over, the speed of my dog was no match. My dog floated around him like muhammad ali dodging the pitts attack then having a nip himself.

I seen people mentioned german sheperds, dobermans and rottweilers, they are no match for some of the larger terrier breeds.

One of the most insane dogs i have ever met was a kerry blue X airdale terrier, he stood at around 24 inches at the whithers and it would have took an amazingly skilled fighter to have killed him.

Coming back to the point of who would win out of a EBT or a PBT. I think if i really wanted to I could get an english bully and he could be a amazing fighter. Then again pit bulls are very hard dogs. I think an english bull terrier would win 7 times out of ten.

Making dogs fight is gay though, it shows how sad the people who own them are. All the fights my dogs have been in, have been in the park when its usually the other dogs/owners fault.

I think if you look at the anatomy of the english bull terrier, he is the opitomi of a fighting dog compared to the relitivaly short muzzeled PB.

As I said before though airedales terriers ('king of the terriers') have been known to go looking for fights. Kerry blues have an amazingly strong jaw, and have a great reputation for fighting over here in the U.K. Staffs also have a reputation. I think many people forget these breeds because of their appearence.


 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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dont worry people. i'm gone. daveyboy was right. and so was cmann. no point arguing with idiots. its aggravating and insulting.  and doc and malasia and all the other great "dogmen" of the world , , whatever makes yu happy and helps yu sleep at night. believe yur myth. "theres only one 'true' fighter in the world". and its yurs!. congratulations!...as for me , i'll be glad to leave this frikkin page and be content with what i know. unlike all yu pseudos , i have nothing to prove. especially not to ppl who cant be reasoned with and have the most rigid of opinions on such a flexible issue. y do yu ppl even ask these questions in the first place when yu already "think" yu know the answer??? lol.. yur too stupid to actually think. lmao...this page is a waste of time and a repetitive drain of energy. its like teaching a monkey mathematics!!...lmao.....cheers

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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and marc , i'm sorry!...i've just heard so many anti- bull terrier comments on this page that i thought that thats what you "could've" meant..lol. so my reply was to both situations. my mistake. again ,sorry about that.

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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khan-  you never make any real points.  look at your posts, all you do is make fun of people and call names.  sure you have a few stories about someone elses bull terrier, but really, give it a rest.  also its a cop-out to say the reason you dont make since is our fault.  you out number everyone elses posts like three to one, and then you try to tell us you have nothing to prove?  the way you respond to everything, taking it all so personal, shows some seriouse insecurity.  we are not mad at you like you are at us.  seriously relax.!  if your dog is the best and we dont believe you, you will still be ok, and your dog will still be the best.  no biggie.  

 

Answer by bull t.
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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bull t'swere meant to fight just like pits. a bull t is a good amtch for any pit. just about any dog with bull in its blood is a good fighter and can match and even beat a pit.i'veseen arg. dogos tear up pits in venezuela and presas rip them up too as well as bull terriers. pits constantly get beat,  why do you think their perfect? its just not true

 

Answer by baltogunner
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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I have a handgun license, four pistol awards, and a .44 Desert Eagle that I always carry on walks. Your dog is hamburger if it crosses my BT. Care for a double-cheese?

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/10/2004
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black powder bob , i got nothing to prove. i just enjoy the page and visit it every time i log on....and i just tend to respond when i hear ppl saying things that  are'nt true..its in my nature...insecure??..about what??...yur insecure....so scared someone else just might have a point....especially if its something yu cant stomach....i talk about other ppl's dogs and my own.....i love dogs....all the fighting breeds...not just BTs...i told yu i owned all sorts.....even a pit......y the hell would i be insecure???.....and when the hell did i curse anyone....i only respond in kind....i never cursed anyone...y are yu lying ???...yu got something to prove maybe???...lol

the only reason it seems i get personal is cuz i am really passionate about fighting dogs. y do u twist everything around?? weird....i got nothing against any of yu....y would i??...lol...that does'nt even make any sense....and my posts outnumber yurs cuz i love the subject....no other reason....boy man , yu guys are menopausal....lol

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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hey khan,
just tell that black powder bob whatever the hell he wants to hear,he isn't going to shut the hell up anyway.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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i never tried to get anyone evicted...lol...i just respond to posts....i dont tell ppl to leave cuz i disagree with em. wonder y these ppl call ME  "insecure"....hmmmmm

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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khan- ok good now that we know you are here to discuss facts and not to prove anything except your "passion" i have a question or two.  based on your extensive knowledge of the bull terrier is the color trait white, dominant or recessive?  have you been able to seperate color traits from fighting abillity?  are there certain characteristics that seem color related?  whats your average litter size?  what percentage of your pups  are fought or at least rolled?  what are the averages of those results?  are bull terrier "champions" more commonly face or chest dogs?  how specifically has the bull terrier evolved in the pits in the last fifty years?  how do show and pit varietys differ?  define gameness.  how have you developed it? how have you tested it?  out of the "many" game bull terriers youve seen what percentage would you say are above average in their fighting skills?  how many fights have you seen and where do you get your averages from?  did you know a dog can be a skilled fighter and not game at the same time?  if so did you know its very rare to posess both skill and gameness in abundance and at the same time?  how have these qualities been developed together with consistency in the bull terrier?  in the lines that have this extreemely rare combination what coat colors dominate?  out of these rare few is the head shape more or less pronounced?  are they more or less leggy compared to the show variety?  what would you say the main behavioral differences are in owning a game dog that has been fought and a game dog that hasnt been fought?  

i have seriously wished that someone somewhere would take the bull terrer seriously enough to breed for abillity and not just looks!!  i love bull terriers!!  the questions above are only a few things you could make points about that would be unarguable.  dog genetics is a highly studied subject.  your findings will match the averages and methods used by so many countries on so many breeds.  it is possible you have come up with a great dog.  i would like to hear how.  the questions above are very basic.  

i am completely open to the idea of great bull terriers.  but how am i suppossed to give you credit when your strongest argument is that i dont know because im a stupid biased american?  provide me with something other than stories and phantom histories.  i am serious.  built like a boar, is not a good point.  for every leg broken they will break two, is not a reasonable point.  when you bite a bull terrier you bite pure hard muscle?  are you saying the bull terriers muscles are genetically resistant to bites?  from where i am coming from that sounds ridiculouse.  on the other hand i believe you believe what your saying.  so lets get a little more rational and a little less emotional and talk about this.

im not saying corvino would condone anything ive written but his post was awesome and genuine.  a man of his experience is rare today.  thank you for taking the time.              








 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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and black powder , bull terriers come in 4 types. bull type (heavy set) , terrier type (faster , more tenacious) , dalmation type (sleek , unimpressive) and the middle of the road type (most balanced out). i've had bull terriers beat pits convincingly. so i know that they CAN be bred to be even better if someone wanted to make the effort. yu said yu love the breed. and yu obviously love the sport. spend some money. make the effort. 50 years of lost gameness can be recovered in 5 with such an amazing animal. they did it in russia. and from what ppl are saying , argentina and lebanon also have fighting bull terriers. so it can be done in the US. go for it!!

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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as for corvino , world champ????...lol...in pakistan , local bully dogs are "world champs"!....in japan , tosas are "world champs"!. whatever.

 

Answer by realdeal
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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LOL, blackpowder knows nothing about dog fighting, im gonna remain nameless for now, but i am a dogman, and i own a very big yard full of pits, i travel alot, and i obvisouly fight dogs... when i went to russia i witnessed some of the nastiest bull terriers ever, dogs that dont let go in a fight, i had braught a couple of my pitbulls down, 2, one a gr champ, well, the BT's were about 55 60 pounds of all muscle, my dogs were 55 to 50, well my 55 dog beat the 60 pound bt in less than 10 minutes, but i cant say the same for my GR, he lost, and i lost a little money, well i was there with a few buddies also dogmen, and let me tell u, bull terriers are pretty damn game, and in paka, where they fight dogs, its diffrent, PITBULLS fight cajun rules, thats gay, there should never be rounds in a real dog fight, let them go at it, untill one loses, thats how u find out who the real champ is, although sence i live in america i use cajun rules, but any real dog man should never do so,

 

Answer by malasia
Submitted on 7/11/2004
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So realdeal, you confess you are not a real dogman then?

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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and one of my male bts was the frontier's champ...won 12 fights one after the other...infact , he never lost!....lacked skill....more than made up for it in gameness....i've never owned a more "game" dog.....besides the EBTs , i own 6 bully bull terriers and bull terrier crosses....2 bully dogs....owned an APBT...now have its pup....pit/kohati at home with my fav. EBT female.....and guess what black powder , SHE ALSO WINS AT THE SHOWS!!..lol..has ten cups to prove it....and wins fights as well...lol...yeah bull terriers are showdogs....fighting showdogs!..lol...my family has always had EBTs in the past...from the time of my great grandfather....most bull terriers left pakistan with the british...and the crosses remained....some were okay , some were "great"....like the kohati bull terrier of kohat...pure in its own rite....we've owned pure kohatis in the past....dogs that would'nt let go for 20 minutes at a time...lol....and yeah , no cajun rules here...its to the end...only the gamest dogs win......there are no "breaks"....lol...i dont know which color BTs are better at fighting..(whatever..lol)..i dont have much experience with the coloreds...but i suspect their fighting ability should be the same....
anything else bobby boy?

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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and realdeal sounds like he knows dogs....and dogfighting. any man who denounces yur cajun rules knows how dogs should be fought. and hes right , no cajun rules here. yu wanna see game BTs blackpowder , go to russia!...tashkent..and u'll get what yu want....some of the best fighting dogs in the world...untainted by yur western show breeding....and yu could do it in the US...the way i told yu....wont take long with these magnificent animals....they were bred to fight....and win...and thats the bottom line!

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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quit with the cheapshots malasia......the extra extra "cheap"shots!!....lmao

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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and i answered all yur questions twice already in two different posts...and neither of em is here...i hate it when that happens. again...i dont breed bull terriers. i own em . i've had a few litters off the two pairs i got from russia. slightly longer in leg and less exaggerated in the downface. game fighting types. average litter size 4. survival of 2 on average. ( bull terriers are bad mothers). coloreds have fewer health issues. white is dominant. problems associated with lack of pigment are kidney failure , lens luxation , deafness and infertility. color reintroduced to the whites in early 20th century by re-crossing with staffs. gamedogs never fought are controllable , decent pets...lol...once fought , they come to glory in their sport and want more and more of it. gameness is the ability to take a severe beating and still come back for more. that "never give up" attitude. they actually "believe" theyre never gonna lose. skill is good technique. has nothing to do with gameness. both traits are found in the best fighters. blah blah blah......man , i'm doin this for the third time already. forgive me if i've left something out. am sick of it already...lol

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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I can also see girls with hairy legs and armpits in Russia and Tashkent, but the American Pitbull is still the only fighting dog. So Khan (realdeal) your still havent convinced anyone of the BT fighting dominance. I thought you were sick of us dummies and were heading off. Black Powder Bob, didn't you hear Khan say that..

When Louis Colby and Bob Wallace bred Pit bulls these lines were deeply game and they fought with no time between scratches. No one has ever bred as game a dog as Bob Wallace with the Old Family Red Nose strain of Pit Bull. So many Pitbulls have fought every living dog in the World and when Corvino said a APBT was World champ he meant it. Open to the World not America. Different rules for different countries but still the same result...American Pitbull terriers are still the best fighting dog.

 

Answer by GETALIFEDOC
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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DOC YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT FIGHTING DOGS THE ONLY THING YOU KNOW IS WHAT YOU READ. I AM WILLING TO BET YOU STILL BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUSE DONT YOU. IDO NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT FIGHTING DOGS. I AM A NEW COMER AND FROM WHAT I SEE THE MAN KAHN SEEMS TO KNOW MORE THAN ANY ONE IN THIS PATHETIC ROOM. I OWN AN AMERICAN PITBULL TERRIER AND A BULL TERRIER AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM BETWEEN THE 2. THEY BOTH MAKE TERRIFIC FRIENDS AND I CAN SLEEP COMFORTABLY KNOWING THESE 2 DOGS ARE PATROLLING MY HOUSE. GOD FORBID A STRANGER WHO DOESNT BELONG COMES IN. BUT WHEN I RUN MY 2 DOGS I CAN RUN THEM FOR HOURS AT A SHOT AND NEITHER COMES BACK TIRED. SURE THEY HAVE ARGUMENTS AND THEY GET INTO SCUFFLES. I WOULD NEVER GET IN BETWEEN THE 2 TO BREAK UP AN ARGUMENT. I READ UP ON BOTH BREEDS AND IT SEEMS TO BE THEY BOTH  HAVE A REPUTATION FOR BEING A GREAT FIGHTER. MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE THE OWNERS OF THE DOGS FIGHT. AND SEE THE WINNER OUT OF THAT.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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"I can also see girls with hairy legs and armpits in Russia and Tashkent, but the American Pitbull is still the only fighting dog. "......lmao......doc , i must say you personify true intelligence and class. lol.

i also heard a lot of people say that you guys dont even know what yur talking about. so y r u still shootin yur mouth off???..lol....y dont yu leave?...if yur gonna come up with statements like the one above , then please , yu really do need to TAKE A HIKE!..lol

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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I thought my statment was funny, don't get so riled up. At least I use the same name each time I post a thread (GETALIFEDOC). Khan we read all of your "intelligent" statements and there are many and you seem to have ran Black Powder Bob off and he is twice as knowledgable as you are and some of your cronies. You do not let anybody say anything negative to you nor do you have a sense of humor. And (GETALIFEDOC), you should watch what you say about fighting the owners of some of these dogs, you just might get your wish. Khan you only read what you want to, you have not gained any knowledge from people who have anything to offer. Good luck with you BT's and  remember survival is dependant on the mutant to find a mate...

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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I agree 100% with KHAN - I used to like americans, but due to this forum, I'm changing. They think that they have the truth of everything. KAHN is right. Here in Argentina EBT is gamebred as well as pitbull and dogo.
I don't understand the reason so many people writing so much saying APBT is the only game dog. How do they know??? Many of them (with all my respect) are poor people that never left their city. I had the luck of traveling and I saw EBT gamebred in Brazil, Uruguay and Paraguay. The purpose of this forum is to know what happens in other places. So, when someone from another country tells his experience, he should be respected.
I've told mine many lines up in this forum. I can tell EBT can match. He may get tired before apbt, but Ive seen EBT finishing matches quickly. Hurting so much apbt that cuouldn't attack after the break (I don't know the tecnical words for this in english, sorry). But wait, I've also seen apbt winning ebt. I just want to tell that ebt is still gamebred in some of our "3rd world countries"...

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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oh man....oh god no....do u actually believe i'm sending in posts with aliases?????...lol....LMAO...that is so pathetic man!!...i never expected something so stupid  even from yu doc...thats incredible!!..wow...weird...still cant frikkin believe it....yu think i , getalifedoc and realdeal are the same person?????....get a load of this guys???...these ppl are so absorbed in their "theory" that they cant believe other ppl might have an opinion contrary to theirs....wow.....WOW!!

blackpowder ran out of questions...and answers...lol..as for u , yu dont know me...yu dont know who i am....or what i'm about....or how much i really know about this particular subject....i'm passionate about fighting dogs boy...everything i've said is true....and i always keep learning...i read everyones posts everyday....just to possibly learn something new....but yu have to "say" something new for that to happen.....i KNOW pits are great fighters...no question...what i've been telling yu guys is that so are bullterriers...it seems like YOU guys are the ppl who've learnt nothing!....too arrogant and stuck up i suppose....sad.
as for yu guys being more knowledgeable???.....what?? yu guys know the names of some famous american pitbull breeders and fighters....big deal!!!...lol...my knowledge is different!!....its first hand...and i know ppl who own the best local fighters here in pakistan....personally!!!...so????....whats with yu ppl.....man!!....okay , here it goes!!....the APBT is the only fighting dog in the world!.....happy ????...shuks

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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oh man....oh god no....do u actually believe i'm sending in posts with aliases?????...lol....LMAO...that is so pathetic man!!...i never expected something so stupid  even from yu doc...thats incredible!!..wow...weird...still cant frikkin believe it....yu think i , getalifedoc and realdeal are the same person?????....get a load of this guys???...these ppl are so absorbed in their "theory" that they cant believe other ppl might have an opinion contrary to theirs....wow.....WOW!!

blackpowder ran out of questions...and answers...lol..as for u , yu dont know me...yu dont know who i am....or what i'm about....or how much i really know about this particular subject....i'm passionate about fighting dogs boy...everything i've said is true....and i always keep learning...i read everyones posts everyday....just to possibly learn something new....but yu have to "say" something new for that to happen.....i KNOW pits are great fighters...no question...what i've been telling yu guys is that so are bullterriers...it seems like YOU guys are the ppl who've learnt nothing!....too arrogant and stuck up i suppose....sad.
as for yu guys being more knowledgeable???.....what?? yu guys know the names of some famous american pitbull breeders and fighters....big deal!!!...lol...my knowledge is different!!....its first hand...and i know ppl who own the best local fighters here in pakistan....personally!!!...so????....whats with yu ppl.....man!!....okay , here it goes!!....the APBT is the only fighting dog in the world!.....happy ????...shuks

 

Answer by realdeal
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Um for every pitbull breeder on this board with game dogs, lol, look, i dont know who any of u dogmen are and i am a very popular dog man, ok? i been inside the ring alot longer than anyone else, and as for the world champion being a pitbull, thats speculation my friend..... if so, whos the dog, whats his pedigree? show me some pedigrees u dogmen, let me see what dogs your feeding, i guarntee it is nothing compared to my yard, and ill bet u a million bucks your just lowlifes with no real dogs, i breed sell and game pits, but i know for a fact that there not the only game dog out there, i have not only known some of the bull terriers to be game, but alot of there crosses are to, so anyone wanna step up and tell me what there feeding?

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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kahn- you are starting to freak out a little man.  seriously, six posts just today.  i know you believe in your bull terriers, it even sounds like you have read a couple of books.  but seriously man you are starting to sound a little like gollum from lord of the rings.  
i wouldnt mind talking to you but you have got to pull it together a little.  i mean your conspiracy theorys about american propaganda towards pit bulls.  
i have never claimed to know you.  why do you feel you have to tell me that i dont know you?  
you did not answer my questions.  and yet you say that i have run out of them?  you tell me you have "ten cups" from a show, why do you think that would mean anything to me?  how could it?  you appear to have lost your abillity to reason.  
your stories sound far fetched to me.  but they may be true.  i am open to that.  you are so dead set on proving that bull terriers can fight its a little embarrasing.
i have beliefs every bit as passionate as yours.  but i am not going mad trying to prove myself to everyone who doesent accept them.
so again, relax a little, take a couple deep breaths.  america is not out to get you.  if someone doesent believe your story it doesent make your story not true.  its ok, deep breaths, calm down, easy does it.    

 

Answer by malasia
Submitted on 7/12/2004
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Doc, I like your style.  Khan, if you had a life you would only post once a day too.  Like the rest of us.  Have fun freaking out about that one.  

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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ten cups from ten different shows einstein. and the "yu dont know me" was for doc...funny how yu got that one confused!...lol....i'm recovering from an operation and i'm at home resting. so i stay on the net almost all day. i would'nt normally post 6 messages a day. i just got nothing better to do...lol..its either watch TV or surf the net. and i have taken a liking to this page cuz of all the idiotic things i get to hear..lol..its entertaining...and bobby boy , i never freak out!...i just love to win ;)....and malasia , i've never even "considered" yur posts in any way so dont worry about me paying yu too much attention...cuz it aint gonna happen...lol....

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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and to realdeal , marc , argentino , daveyboy and the good sports out there , CHEERS!

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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This is for realdeal. My dogs are frome several bloodlines. Colby, Lightner-Mason and Wallaces Old Family Red Nose outcrossed with McCaws Going Light line. The same Bloodlines have been in my family downsouth for 35 years. Hear for 20 years. We feed our dogs Martins K9 formula with supplemental beef tripe mixture. Martins probiotic with enzymes, Energol for heavy conditioning and weekly chopped fresh vegetables carrots etc. My dogs carry 5 to 10 pounds more weight in the winter and when not in heavy training. Treadmills are used also in the winter and springpoles and running as well. I hope this answers any questions you may have had. Lightest female is 46lbs and heaviest male (Old family Red nose) 60lbs catch weight. Khan good luck with your recovery from the operation. Black Powder Bob, do you have any dogs with Boudreax bloodlines?, nice heads and necks on them. My SBT bloodlines are as follows. Moosskell, Dumbriton and Donnellas, nice pets and good athletes. All of the SBT I own get along as long as they don't use the springpoles or frisbee at the same time.

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/13/2004
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it's true im in peru right now and there is much more fighting in one south A. country then in all of north A.  pits lose people, and very often. ive been all over south a and pits lose to ebt'sdogos, and of course presas. ive even seen a ridgeback boxer mix beat a pit in under 10 minutes.  no real dogmen would ever dare say that a tosa or a pit are unbeateble, not even gamebred ones. pits generally are the best but even the best lose GET OVER IT!!!! there is not unbeateble pit!!

 

Answer by black-powder-bob
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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sorry khan, didnt know you were down sick.  the days get real long when your off your feet.  
doc, i havent owned any boudreax blood.  though they are some of the best looking.  a man named zinetti from croatia, or someplace like that, has a strain of little pits that look great.  they have longer gator style heads (similiar to our pits) with shorter staffy-like legs.  there is a lot of buzz about them but i havent talked to anyone whose seen them in the pit first hand.  they came about recently, within the last 8 years, from the way the books look it was accidental.  a mutation that has proved dominant.  there are currently three lines from one sire all spitting immages of eachother.  
as for me i have one dog left.  he is not from any famouse lines.  i can guess his ancestry but... it would just be guessing.  he is as good a dog as i have ever owned.   and he is old.  been with me through two marriges, anyway i dont want to leave him behind, to go hunt up the makings of a yard.  when he passes i want to be there for him like he has been for me.
after he goes i will start hitting the books, traveling to "shows", and mingling with the dogmen i can find.  there just arent to many good ones left.  i am sure you know what i mean.

 

Answer by realdeal
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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I feed alot of bolio/tombstone/mayday stuff, alot of the stuff i get is from a kennel called evolution kennels, the diet for my dogs is my secret hahaha, but it looks like your feeding some good stuff.... u perhaps got a websight or anything?

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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again , thanks for the concern. its appreciated.

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Hey realdeal, no website. My host left town so I just abandoned it. I see that you see the need in good nutrition also. I wouldn't try to coerce your secret though. I am working on kennel runs right now specifially for the Bull and Terrier breeds. Have talked to a gentlemen in England and I am modeling them after his SBT kennel. He has quite a few beautiful SBTs and 2 APBT he purchased that are line bred Colby mostly black dogs. I am leaving for England on July 18 and taking 2 of my dogs for his breeding program. I will soon only breed SBT's and my APBT program will discontinue. My stud dogs are 11, 10 and 8 and my females will also be spayed as they have produced some nice dogs. I am expecting a litter of Old Family Rednose in October then I will stop breeding APBT. These pups are sold and the Ultra sound showed 7 heart beats. These are desendents from Wallaces Red Brave on the top side. Black powder Bob, I havent' heard about the dogs in Croatia but I like the sound of a smaller line of Pitbull. I would like to check one of these out. Good luck finding just the right dog they are few and far between and like myself breeders are more and more stopping their game testing and breeding of APBT. Thats why I am going to SBT's. When I am in England I will be checking out the new research they are doing on radicating Cataracts in Bull and Terrier breeds. Later

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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i feed my dogs raw chopped meat (dipped in boiling water for a couple of minutes) and vegetable extract.....and have a man run em besides a bicycle at a slow trot , gradually increasing distance every second day. in the season. off-season , its a combo of boiled minced meat, vegetables , rice and yohghurt. i also use a kite tied to the end of a long stick for jumping exercises in the yard. the smaller dogs get a good pump out of the short bursts. and doc , what are the staffs like?..a friend of mine has a pair , but i personally have no experience with em. and my latest experiment. i got my female bull terrier crossed with the APBT/ kohati at home. lol. wonder what that will produce. les see.

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Khan sounds like have success with raw meat. Meat is their natural food and it always help to have some in their diet. Staffs are outstanding pets. They are excellent with kids. My daughters cant live without them and they are athletes. Frisbee, obstacle courses and flyball are their best events. They want to work too much though and it takes time away from my Pitbulls. They like to weightpull and the treadmill helps keep staffs busy and tires them out. Male staffs are harder to housebreak but are very affectinate. When I am in England I will be scouting for a stud dog when I am ready to breed Staffs. I want to do it right and I have done the research now I need the proper building blocks. After this litter has been properly secured by their new owners I will slowly find homes for my aging APBT's. They have been great dogs and I have places for most of them. I will keep 1 male and 1 female of superb bloodlines just for my own satisfaction.

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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i own two white staffs, one male, one female. My female is of soft temperment (maybe because she was the runt i dont know?) and probaly wouldnt be a good pit fighter but my male is quite harsh tempered. I now for a fact that with a little training he would be a great pit fighter. I live in london, england were the Staff is common ,however 90% of them have been bred down in temperment due to a lot of controversy..(like my female for example) which i personally dont like. My male however i purchased  from quite a rough estate were dogs were fought. He is quite a big boy but not overlly big..in my opinion just the right size. This breed of dog can easily be brought back into the dog fighting world and provail as one of the best i feel they have been pushed to one side which is why some would say they are a dying breed which is a shame as they are brillinat dogs to have and own. Dont forget that they were one of the original fighting dogs.

 

Answer by oliver
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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has anyone heard of the zulu bull of south africa? apparently these dogs have been the favoured pit dog there for over a century and considering that pitbulls have been over there for some time they must be good to still be favoured.

 

Answer by Doc
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Yeah Maximus, you don't have to convince me about Staffs, they are a brilliant breed and one of the original fighting dogs. They are unreal pets and thats all I want from them. I have owned phenomenal Pitbulls with deep and Old pedigrees and I think they are something special. Just the way I think Staffies are. Since my direction is Staffs I am only looking at outgoing, playful and sweet temperments. England is where my Staffies come from and thats where I will get my final Stud Dog.
The Wyrfare line of dogs is my prefered line, good tempermant and great heads and bodies. Staffs have been bred for conformation for a long time and like you said some can be turned into fighters but at this time other breeds prevail. Some of the American Pitbulls I have taken to England and seen their offspring was so impressive. They also crossed them back with Staffies which I only approved when they promised me a free plane fare this time. If you have White Staffies then I bet they are beautiful, how are their bodies and heads. What bloodlines, sounds interesting. I hope you reconsider turning your Staffies into machines I know your female is more like the normal type...later..I will be packing for England so I will say by to all. Have to finish my dogs vacinations before putting them on the plane...

 

Answer by Mike
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Also because it comes in so many variations, I'd say its gameness (if it really has any) might vary aswell.

- Mike

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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hey maximus,
look,im not saying that staffs can't fight,and yes they were originally bred for fighting,but common,i mean do you really think that  your little staff with a jaw strength compared to a jaw of a cat can take a bull terrier or a pitbull,my female bully beat the hell out of a 15months old male staff when she was just 7months old.

 

Answer by Corvino
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Hey Marc, I know that Staffordshire's havent been a fighting breed for a while, but never underestimate their jaw strengh. have you been around any nicely bred Staffordshire's? They have extreme jaw power and can pull World Class weight even at 28lbs. This is a legendary breed and I wouldnt fight this breed especially with a seasoned APBT but never down the SBT. This is a real dog that has evolved over the years. The comment about the cat well...Go to a search engine and put in Wyrefare Prince Naseem and tell me that dog doesnt have jaw strenght. They bred the SBT back to the White Bullterrier to invent the Colored variety and I would say the SBT helped. Breeding again rules the day. A line bred SBT has amazing jaw strength even for a 38lb dog..Take it easy

 

Answer by Corvino
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Hey Doc, it seems as if you have a vested interest in SBT's. I have owned one for a while. I have also used Martins K9 formula for my dogs to excellent result. The website isn't bad either. When you return from England I would like to get in touch with you about the kennel runs you have mentioned. I have several portable runs that really help seperate dogs in a moments notice mainly at breeding time. Also would like advice on winter heating as I have tried propane this last winter. I also would like some information on the Dumbriton line of SBT's

 

Answer by just watching and reading
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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Hey I see you guys feed your dogs meat. is this on a full time basis? I own a English bull terrier,I feed him a food in the states called neutro it is made up of lamb and chicken i give him cheese on a daily basis and once a week I  boil him some chicken breast and give that to him striate I am not using my EBT to fight he is not a fighter he is my friend he watches my back like most books say a bodyguard   i see you guys are fighters so i figure your diet would be a little different that mine? right, but what i am asking is what i am giving him healthy what do u think of my dogs diet o yea he is only 7 months old one more question he is starting to get very aggressive towards other dogs. i dont want this, Would getting him fixed possibly cure the aggressiveness without loosing his wanting to protect me and my home? thanks for all answers

 

Answer by Mike
Submitted on 7/14/2004
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I wonder why it didnt post my 1st post... Has anyone had the same problem, where you posted to 2 posts before they actually got posted and only the second one got posted??

- Mike

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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you say yu dont own a fighter , just a guard , "like the books say". but yur worried about yur pups aggression towards other dogs at just 7 months of age. yu may want yur guard to be just a guard , which is admirable , and they dont NEED to be fought , but at the end of the day , yur dog is a fighting dog. yu cant get rid of the aggression. yu can just prevent a fight from ever taking place. yu'll just have to keep him away from other dogs. he is past the so-called "socialization" stage...and he wont learn to live with other dogs in perfect harmony...lol....yur dog is a fighter , not just a guard. in pakistan , we dont use "dogfood". something that says it contains so and so , rarely does!..lol..EBTs thrive on raw or slightly boiled chopped meat once theyre fully grown. minced when theyre young. a big marrow bone once a week for the teeth and jaws. and yu can add a lil bread or rice if yu want. and pups need milk. adults make good with only meat even , but its always good to supplement the dogs diet with different nutritious stuff. vegetable extract is great. or boiled vegetables. but milk should be almost completely avoided with full grown dogs.

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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hey corvino,
offcourse they will have a powerfull jaw,lets not forget that they were originally bred for fighting,but what i meant is that there  jaw strength is nothing compared to a bull terrier's jaw or a pitbull'sjaw.
why dont you try putting your mutt with a bull terrier or a pitbull,ANY bull terrier,and see what will happen,and i assure you my friend,your mutt will get torn apart .

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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and marc , dont compare staffs to cats...thats insulting...they are the ancestors of the modern APBT after all. lol. it is on record that at a fight in london , a man once chopped off the feet of his staffy , while the crowd watched , as the dog hung on to a bull's nostrils. he hacked them off one by one . to prove how game his dog was. the bull broke loose and ran off and the dog was killed when the nostrils finally gave way and the profusely bleeding dog was trampled under the rampaging bulls feet......now thats jawstrength....lol. the staff was the original fighting dog and can still be brought back to its lost glory. no question.

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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hey khan,my friend owned a male bull terrier,it was a great fighter,i never dared to but my female bull terrier with him in a fight,he used to finishe up pitbulls amstaffs and staffs in 12to 15 minutes maximum.last year,my friend was taking him for a walk,and next to my friend,was a yard with three cows over the other side ,now maby this might seem a little odd,but over here in lebanon,there are lots of regions and places or farms were cows live,anyways,when that bully saw that cow,man did he go crazy,my friend intencially let him loose,and when he got a hold on that cow's leg,man was it a great lock,the cow was kicking and running in an unbeleivable way,the owner of the cow went crazy,he thretened to shoot the bully,but my friend didn't let him,the bully kept on holding to the cow's leg for one hour and 25minutes,after seperating the bully from the cow,the bully died because of a broken jaw.now thats jaw strength my friend,if you think that a staff's jaw is stronger,then why the hell does a staff get his ass kicked every time he fights against bull terriers.

 

Answer by Dumbfounded
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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Man I have been insulted. You think letting a dog loose on a cow is funny. That is by far the most asnine story I've heard. The dog died from a broken jaw. A lock for 1hr and 26 mins. Marc you should be on stage, theres one leaving in an hour.
Now that I got my morning laugh, and I think all of the rest of us has. lets speak less nonsense. If you have seen Staff's fight then that was wrong. that breed don't fight anymore, but dont' say he gets his ass kicked by a BT everytime either, that just shows ignorance. Read some of the good posts that have come up and try to be more realistic because we ain't believin it....

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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hey marc , in case yu did'nt notice , i'm more  a bull terrier fan than of any other bull breed...lol...i'm surprised at how yu coulda missed that actually..lol....i KNOW how strong bull terriers are... and how well they can fight...what i was TRYING to tell yu is that staffs have amazingly strong jaws as well......they are all cousins after all....one in the same....pretty much....and all directly , closely related.....never underestimate a good example of any of these breeds. if yu find a good  , strong , stubborn staffy even today , it should be able to fight any dog. most have lost the temperament to fight maybe , but some probably have'nt....and they can still be brought back....like the EBT in its fighting form still survives , along with the "softer" show variety. i hear irish staffs are pretty damn tough btw. all of the bull breeds can be "saved".....just needs the effort.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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hey marc , in case yu did'nt notice , i'm more  a bull terrier fan than of any other bull breed...lol...i'm surprised at how yu coulda missed that actually..lol....i KNOW how strong bull terriers are... and how well they can fight...what i was TRYING to tell yu is that staffs have amazingly strong jaws as well......they are all cousins after all....one in the same....pretty much....and all directly , closely related.....never underestimate a good example of any of these breeds. if yu find a good  , strong , stubborn staffy even today , it should be able to fight any dog. most have lost the temperament to fight maybe , but some probably have'nt....and they can still be brought back....like the EBT in its fighting form still survives , along with the "softer" show variety. i hear irish staffs are pretty damn tough btw. all of the bull breeds can be "saved".....just needs the effort.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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hey just watching and reading , sounds like ur dogs diet is fine where yu live. chicken is no good for dogs though. they thrive on red meat. yu dont need to be "cholestrol conscious" with yur bull terrier. lol...cook it just to be safe. if yur not comfortable with using raw meat. cuz the dog needs a tough exercise routine to digest "chopped" raw meat. boiled minced meat should be fine and easy to digest even for a couch potato..lol...and dont get his balls cut off...puleese!!...lol

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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Marc....... read properlly and you will see that i had never said that the staff was the best fighting dog you will see that i said they have been bred down which i dont like i said if SBT were brought bak into fighting the could be one of the best..i never once said the ultimate. oh yeah and if you think a dog is good for beating up a cow then ur a bigger dikhead then i thought cows are one of the most laziest animals in the world and couldnt hurt a fly!!

 

Answer by maximus
Submitted on 7/15/2004
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Khan that is exactly what my male white staff is. he is an irish staff while my female is of the english variety........

 

Answer by staffman
Submitted on 7/17/2004
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come on guys,get a grip...i own an irish staff...according to the papers, stormer lines, my mate owns a big english bull, i have seen a few scratches and am 100% positive that a gamebred pit 99% of the time would whip anything you put it up against.....dont be fooled about your dogs gameness just because it growls at next doors cat, ebt and sbt are hardy dogs, but the pit just has better genetics and have been better preserved for what they were bred for....

 

Answer by jac
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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an ebt could probably beat a pit bull but only through weight and therefor strength a dog man who WEIGHS BEFOR A FIGHT would not use one because the pit bull would then also be bigger and heavier and because the pit bull is per inch more powerful in jaw and body

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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hey staffman,
""a pit will whip any dog that is put up against""yeah write,who told you that one,your neighboor who owns a pitbull,and knows no name other than pitbull,and his pitbull is a champ. lol..........

 

Answer by dog
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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cool

 

Answer by dog boy
Submitted on 7/18/2004
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some people have no idea on haw powerfol a bull terrior is my and my dad have vine briding bull teriers rs sinse i was 10 im 55 nawe and belive my the dogs we jave ar no joke they will ter a pit in half we bridem so ther heds will by biger and more musell mass i sell this dogs to a locky few fore 6000 to 15000 i think we have some of the best bred bull teriors in the world aut of all the figts i sine with a APBT and my spesiel bred bull terior only once a APBT almost kild my dog but i think it was a good mathe  but the next day i shoot that dog in the hed for lusing  well am roning awt of things to say but if your intrested in loking at some picturs ill pot my imale next time

 

Answer by educated
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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the fact of the matter is that the only breed that can be compared to the gamebred apbt is the irish sbt which is still being gamebred in the uk.They are to the SBT what the apbt is to the ast. That said however there are also some gamebred english sbt.The Tosa Inu is also regularly fought and bred for this ability. It is extremely capable at its job with mixed results against the Apbt. the irish sbt rarely exceeds 45 lbs which is more akin to the weight of the old time fighting dogs. I do not fight dogs or condone dog fighting but am rather educated, knowledgeable and experienced with the molossian and bull breeds. Breeds such as the fila and dogo are also capable of giving many pits a run for their money but the results are not onesided.

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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I can notice that more people is telling experiences of game bred Bull Terrier. I also did so many time ago in this forum but then got tired because of all APBT fans seemed not to believe or not interested. But this forum IS about EBT, and now people is talking about it.
Here EBT is and always was game bred, specially in Cordoba (argentine state). Also crossed with dogo, but it gives a bigger dog. They are not matched toghether. But Ive seen EBT matched with pure dogo, and EBT wins ALWAYS over dogo. APBT here is a much newer breed, but of matches I've seen, I could say any could win. Depends on the individual dog. I don't know about matching with one of best APBT from usa, but what is sure is that EBT is very game.
I know that it is as well in many other South Am countries, like Brasil and Paraguay.

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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argentino is absolutely right. and any dog that will ALWAYS beat a dogo , will match well against a pit!. no question.

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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hey dog boy,you said that you shot your ebt in the head after loosing,yeah write, what about them being so special,strong and the best,I dont think that a person could kill any dog of his,knowing that its the best and the strongest.and finally,its bull terrier not bull terrior.

 

Answer by educated
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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argentino, i believe u and definitely appreciate the fact the ebt is still being gamebred in some areas.

 

Answer by James
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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I currently live in England and raise Staffordshire BT's. We have imported several APBT's for game testing. These were amazing animals and I take hats off to the Americans who bred this line. We have several Staffords now that are dead game and this family has been game since the 1900's. They have been outcrossed with Irish Staffords to excellent result. You will not hear much over here now about the fighting of our Staffords as the ones who own them are very secretive. I now design and build kennel runs for Terriers and have a guest from America who has some of the most amazing APBT's. He has been on this page also. The Bullterriers in our country have been through a rough time with illness. As far as Bullterriers that are game here, they are few and far between. My relative raises BT's and feels that only by breeding the BT with either the Stafford or APBT will we have an effective fighting animal. The Stafford has been a show breed since 1935 but believe me there are some rough customers over here and the Americans know this, especially the ones who have been here.

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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im in cordoba constantly and the matches between dogo and ebt are 50-50 even with pits. ive seen a perro de toro last night that killed an ebt in under5 minutes.

 

Answer by cmann19078
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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Whats up fellas anyone come up with the answer to which is the best fighting dog? well i was wondering if i were to get a Siberian tiger would a staffie,APBT and an EBT be able to beat my tiger if they all attacked together i am a EBT fan but what do you guys think would happen to my tiger....hahahhaah hey Khan how is everything going.....chris

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/20/2004
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well marc , its true..there are sick ppl out there who kill their dogs for losing a fight. and such ppl dont even deserve to own such amazing dogs in the first place. i mean just look at the way this guy spells. lmao. lemme put it this way doggy boy , what if yu fought with someone and lost. would yu shoot yurself in the head??..lol...though i think you should

 

Answer by khan
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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whassup chris? long time....as for ur question , there were a couple of lion -dog baits in old england....two bull and terriers at a time were set on a wild lion in a big cage...the first pair put up an "okay" fight and were badly injured by the lion , before being pulled out of the bars of the cage by their owners...out of the second pair , one was seized and laid upon by the lion , but still survived , but the other dog reportedly put up quite a fight. and kept at it for quite a while ,  inflicting some damage. these two dogs were also pulled out of the cage by their owners , after one was badly mangled , but yes , even he survived!..lol...tough lil devils , are'nt they...but even in times like those pitting more than two dogs at a time against a wild lion was'nt considered fair......so i guess 4 or more dogs could hurt a lion bad....and i know of some ppl in pakistan who once used 6 fighting dogs to kill lions and tigers in india.

 

Answer by Argentino
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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Macker, I'm mostly in bs as and about matches i've seen in Rio IV, Vicuña Maquena, La Carlota, never seen dogo kill ebt, but I can't say it would be imposible. For my personal experience, dogo is mostly bred for hunting and eventualy are matched. EBT in no good for hunting, only matching. But I respect a lot your opinion and I would like you to tell us more obout perro de toro. Ive not seen any here in bs as.

 

Answer by macker
Submitted on 7/21/2004
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i work for the us embassy in many coutries in south america so i have to travel alot. when i was in cordoba and buenos aires i saw various matches between dogos and pits and ebt'samong others. from my point of view they were mostly even as im sure you know there are different lines of dogos, some take more after the ebt other revert to some of the other breeds. i saw one called gaucho recently beat an ebt in under 10 minutes. the ebt was just too tired. now referring to the perro de toro, its a type of spanish bulldog, very built....theyre rare but incredible dogs.  i saw a breeder in cordoba and sao paulo in brazil.

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 7/22/2004
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hey macker,you said that the dogo beat up the bull terrier because the bully was tired,what the f**k,what kind of game bred bull terrier gets tired in 10minutes,thats not true.

 

Answer by 73
Submitted on 8/3/2004
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You guys ever heard of any APBT'sor any bully's going up against Baboons,wolverines,bigcats or any wild beast stories?

 

Answer by xplozive locked on
Submitted on 8/4/2004
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yo has n e 1 got any information websites or videos n ting bout dog fighting, ive read all of dis piecin bits 2geather 2 get a good understandin, i wud like 2 see sum videos now.

 

Answer by ptown111111111
Submitted on 8/5/2004
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i have a 2year old american bulldog female bout 85 90 lbs i seen her beat a 65-70 lbs pit 130 lbs rott a boxer and c h ow at same time and pulled her off a ebt these were all loose dogs mine was in my yard im not sayin this is the toughest breed but this dogg has heart and doesnt qwuit b/c the ebt had him i thought and she never gave up.. shes a great family dogg very protective and is a pull and tire hang champ all white abd...dont no if its toughest breed but is very determined and wont give up... let me no what u think of the breed? do u think its rare for these dogs to be tough b/c i dont fight them and i was not aware but they must be i also have a lab hes was attacked by the boxer and chow and the abull. save him and fought them off so very protective so r they a tough breed and how do u think they match against others

 

Answer by maybe now????
Submitted on 8/6/2004
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y rnt u working

 

Answer by marc
Submitted on 8/7/2004
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my friend just bought a 2 year old russian bull terrier,great dogs,tor my cousins pit in minutes.its him v.s. my female english bull terrier in 1 week

 

Answer by 0
Submitted on 8/7/2004
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Back again.Hello black-powder-bob.Still got no answer for the dilemma.Going a bit sideway's with this one.Let's just say the average lifespan of a dog is fourteen.Some of you people must have had hundreds of dogs and still not got past the age of 14.Khan did you get your information from the bureau of disinformation.

 

Answer by Goju Luke
Submitted on 8/8/2004
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LETS CLEAR SOMETHING UP HERE,
   SOME OF YOU HAVE BROUGHT LIONS AND HYENAS INTO THIS (FOR SOME CRAZY REASON) AND SAID SOME CRAZY THINGS. LIONS DO NOT ONLY GO FOR WEAKER OR SMALLER PREY, OBVIOUSLY LIKE ANY PREDATOR SURVIVING THEY WILL TAKE THE EASY OPTION IF ONE PRESENTS ITSELF, BUT DONT CONNECT THAT WITH FIGHTING ABILITY! A MALE LION SPENDS MOST OF ITS LIFE FIGHTING NOT HUNTING! (THE FEMALES DO MOST OF THAT) THE SKILLS INVOLVED IN THESE TWO THINGS ARE DIFFERENT. LIONS REGUARLY FIGHT OTHER LIONS AND HYENAS TO ENSURE TERRITORY AND PRIDE SECURITY, THEY HAVE TONS OF EXPERIENCE IN FIGHTING AND ARE INCREDIBLY FEROCIOUS ANIMAILS, SOME OF THEIR THEIR FIGHTING TECHNIQUES ARE LEARNT BEHAVIOUR AND ITS SUPERB, THEY ADAPT THEIR FIGHTING STYLE TO THE OPPONENT.. WHEN FIGHTING A HYENA THEY WILL RUSH IT TO THE GROUND AND BREAK ITS BACK. HOWEVER WHEN FIGHTING ANOTHER BIG CAT THEY WILL COUNTER AND MOVE LIKE BOXERS! THATS WHY THEY WILL USUALLY BEAT A TIGER AS TIGERS WILL USUALLY JUST TRY TO GET A THROAT GRIP ON AS THEY DO WITH PREY.
  AND FOR THE RECORD THERE WAS AN ACCOUNT OF A BENGAL TIGER BEING ATTACKED BY A PACK OF WILD DOGS AND THE TIGER KILLED ABOUT 15 OF THEM BEFORE BEING KILLED ITSELF.
   THIS ISNT EVEN ABOUT SIZE ITS ABOUT MENTALITY, A LION IS TENACIOUS FIGHTER JUST LIKE THE PIT BULL TERRIOR. LIONS HAVE EVEN BEEN KNOWN TO KILL GROWN ELEPHANTS! (WHEN WORKING TOGETHER) WATCH "ULTIMATE ENEMIES" ON NAT GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL FOR PROOF.
   A HYENAS JAWS HAVE THE CRUSHING POWER OF 4500 POUNDS PER INCH AND THEY COULD BEAT ANY GAME DOG! SO THE ORDER OF THE FOOD CHAIN IS OBVIOUS HERE! A GAME PIT BULL TERRIOR WOULD NOT LAST LONG IN THE AFRICAN PLAINS ONCE ITS SPOTTED BY THE COMPETITION... WATCH THIS VID AND ENJOY!... http://www.unf.edu/~demm0006/lion-hyena-war.wmv
  

 

Answer by 0
Submitted on 8/9/2004
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Hey macker your a good spokesman for the us embassy.

 

Answer by louise in nz
Submitted on 8/11/2004
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you redneck dog destroyers should not be allowed to own a creature as loyal, loving and brave as a bully. you are all retards. i love my bully magoo more than life. to see him hurt would break my heart.

 

Answer by STOPFORCE
Submitted on 8/15/2004
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THE BULL TERRIER WAS PHASED OUT FROM THE PIT SCENE DUE TO THE FACT WAS NOT A TRUE PITDOG HISTORY PROVES THIS AS, FOR TOSA THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN GAME BUT CAN'T COMPETE  . SERIOUSLY GUYS BULL TERRIERS ARE NICE LOOKING BUT A PITBULL IS NICE AT FIGHTING LOOK AT IT'S HISTORY . ALL THOSE DOGS HAVE BEEN CREATED JUST TO STOP THE APBT NONE HAVE DONE THIS .FACT IS FACT REAL DOGMEN DON'T GAMBLE $$$$$$$$$$$ ON MIX BREEDS CUR IS A CUR

 

Answer by boy
Submitted on 8/20/2004
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there is just one dog can face the pitbulls and kill which is the aziat its a big russian dog weight 80 to 100 kg. but pitbull still number onefighting dog there is non of ur dogs can face the pitbull  just if he can kill him ..

 

Answer by Riptide Gambler
Submitted on 8/24/2004
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You people have absoultly no idea of what you talking about, APBT is King, His been  enginered for only one Purpose, Combat.

Bull terrier wouldnt last a min against a good  bulldog, You have idiots on here talking about how they matched their bullterriers against rotts, THEIR WORKING DOGS not Fighting dogs a rott doesnt even last a few seconds against a bulldog,   And as for tosa'stheir game oppostion but even they get whipped by a bulldog (pitbull)
Your Dogs arent Geared for the Square anymore Face it, American Pitbull terrier Is GOD amongst all K9s, Pound for pound its the most powerful animal in the world and thats a fact!

 

Answer by ebt man
Submitted on 8/26/2004
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Its simple, a game bread English Bull Terrier as bread here in Birmingham England would stand the same chance against a game bread APBT as would an APBT against another APBT. They are both fantastic animals and should be respected for their gameness and tenacity. Rotts and other non fighting breeds, don't be so silly.  I have an English Bull Terrier and would love an APBT too but unfortunately they are illegal in the UK.

English Bull terriers and AMPBT 50-50.

 

Answer by Khan1
Submitted on 9/3/2004
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Khan where are u from. are u a Pathan?

 

Answer by EBTthe ripper
Submitted on 9/16/2004
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I own a male ebt and trust me it has had two fights with a apbt and completly ripped it plus it has trashed 3 staffs..so hush up u load of priks

 

Answer by Carlitos
Submitted on 9/20/2004
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Man....Where were you all a few years ago, lol. I have been interested in fighting molossers for over 10-years strong and I have owned a few. I wish i would have known that the Bullys were still game. I would have jumped in a heart beat to getting a nice bully. I did own a brindle bully but it wasn't close to being game. He was a good personality though but the dogo I have just ruled over him. So Kahn and to everyone else where are the gamelines and how do I reach one?

 

Answer by MooMoo
Submitted on 9/22/2004
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I had three fawn Red nose American Pit Bull Terriers. The Baby (mom) was 62lbs; Tank (one of her sons) was 72lbs and Big Boy (Tank's brother from same litter) was 82lbs. These guys were like my daughter and grandsons to me. The Baby and Harley (the dad of the pupies) as far as we knew had no fighters in their lines. These guys were not fighters by the furthest stretch of the imagination. They were our (the family) companions and very much a part of everyday lives; they would go with us to work when they could, they would sleep with us, went everywhere with us even traveling in our little 12' travel trailer if the trip was too long for the back of the truck or if there was no room in the cab. They were unusually beautiful quite often people would commet on their beauty right after they made commets about what kind of killers they were. Not so with these guys. Big Boy was so scary and silly everybody told me I should change his name to 'Scooby Doo', Tankie was the friendliest thing and extremely sensitive, The Baby was the most aggressive if you could call it that I believe that it was actually her maternal instincts that kicked in every now and again. On 4-24-04 the Baby was 4yrs, 4mo; it was the day before the boys turned 2yr, there was an incident in which 'the kids' protected my husband from 3 people. During this incident one of these people were bitten 3 times, one time from each of them. They did not lunge, grab, shake, rip and so on. The person had a round puncture on the shoulder blade area, a round puncture on the top of the thigh and one on the left lower hiney (butt). They had never done anything like this before, I'm not saying that they wouldn't have protected us, but nobody was stupid enough to disrespect them like that before. I would have thought these people would have known better, they were not strangers. The person never went to the hospital it wasn't necessary, just some peroxide, neo-sporin and a bandaid. Animal Control came and took my babies away, declared them dangerous dispite me fighting it the whole way up to and including the court room. My babies were murdered on 6-18-04. To add insult to injury, we can not own or even babysit another canine for one year. If after the first year I want another I may only after I have animal control come and inspect my home to see if it has a large yard with a 6' tall fence, I also have to agree that animal control is allowed to come into my home or yard at any time of the day or night without my permission to make sure that I only have 1 dog. I tell you I have never in my life and I am 43 years old experienced such hatred or despising prejudicive contempt in my life as I did when I was out for a walk with my babies. I never encouraged aggressiveness in them in ANY way form or fashion. I seriously doubt that any of them would have fought if ever in the situation, they just wanted to play with every thing and every body. I know the baby would have attacked if she thought another dog were going to hurt her boys but that is just due to her maternal instinct. My Red Nose American Pit Bull Terriers were NOT dangerous animals. They were like lambs led to slaughter and my life will NEVER be the same for the loss of them. Can you believe in court the animal control manager testified that she believed that I should not be allowed to have any other pets because if I was, she believed that I would run out at fast as I could and get more pit bulls and train them to behave the same way that I had trained the Baby, Tank and Big Boy. I never heard someone say something so far off the f--king mark in my life. I had a doberman once about 18yrs ago. Had him for about 4yrs (he died of cancer) it took me 8yrs to get over him. I told them that too. They still raped me.

I would recommend that you be careful with your pets if you truly love them as you love your human children and you live in San Diego County you could lose them they can be declared vicious and murdered for fighting animals or biting humans. Even if the bite does not require medical attention and the bit person does not make a complaint and goes to court to testify as to the character and temperment of the dog.

 

Answer by thank god theres some real dog men left
Submitted on 10/5/2004
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holy sh.t i thank the lord above for the true dogmen that have written on this page.i accidently stumbled upon this while was checking out some double bred china man pups from tom garner.i have heard the most assinine statements mostly from limy'sand that makes feel proud to b an AMERICAN!!and to my fellow countrymen please stop making yourself look like a run of the mill retaurd with all that my rotty this and my bullterr thatPLEASE!!and to the knowledgeable dog men keep up the good work.also i am trying to locate some whites tab blood?

 

Answer by andy
Submitted on 10/10/2004
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Speaking as an Englishman and a proud Staff owner, what the hell are you f**ked up yanks doing getting these beautiful dogs to fight?  You're all way too f**ked up in your tiny little red-neck heads.  I'd love to dig a pit and get two of you c**ts in there swinging for each other.  Try fighting man to man and face to face instead of getting an example of one of the most trusting breeds in the world to do it for you, you shameless yellow c**k s**kers. f**k you all, any complaints napierandy@hotmail.com

 

Answer by massacure
Submitted on 10/15/2004
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i love dog fighiting

 

Answer by Full of Bull
Submitted on 10/15/2004
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First time posting ! I have read a lot of different ideas that people have about game/fighting breeds . I have a 10 mo. old EBT and have always been around dogs I have been close to Great Danes,Rotty'sAPBT'sAmerican bull dogs .Alapaha bulldogs  even staffordshire terrier  and Cane corso'sand all of these breeds are great in the own way and each breed has its strength's and weaknesses but I must say that at play at the dog parks the EBT seems to have been blessed with more athletic ability than any of the others .Speed stamina and agility don't seem to be on the same level as any of the other dogs I mentioned from my own experiences . The point that I would like to make is that Apbt are in a class of their own . I know of no other breed in which you can open any newspaper and find 10 breeders listing "quality puppies from 150 dollars on up" US ...price a quality EBT or the others breeds and you realize its a whole different level . I thinks it's like trying to compare a Camaro to a Ferrari  while the Camaro may be fast it can't even be mentioned in the same breath as a Ferrari . What separates these dogs is same a what separate the cars the amount of time effort and passion that goes into making one   which affects the  finished product , and price and the folks that own and breed them .              

 

Answer by Bushwick
Submitted on 11/1/2004
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EBT,STAFF BT, AND APBT.  THEY  ARE ALL THE KINGS.  HEY FELLOW AMERICANS DON'T GET SO CLOSED AND THINK THAT APBT IS THE ONLY ONE.  YES TODAY FOR TODAY PERHAPS THE APBT IS THE ONE WHO IS MOSTLY WINNING THE FIGHTS.  HOWEVER THAT'S BECAUSE OF TWO HORRIBLE ASSOCIATIONS AKC AND FCI OR UKC.  THEY FORCED BREEDERS TO CHANGE STANDARDS AND MAKE MORE DOSILE EBT AND STAFF BT.  HOWEVER I WAS ONCE IN ARGENTINA WHERE I MET A GUY CALLED CHOLO.  THIS GUY HAD ONLY EBT AND EBT MUTTS.  I SAW TWO OF HIS DOGS FIGHTING AND BOTH OF THE TIMES HIS DOGS WON. AGAINTS AND DOGO AND A APBT.  THE EBT IN NEW YORK CITY ARE NOTHING COMPARE TO THE DOGS I SAW OVERTHERE.
ALSO REMEMBER THE BIGGEST FIGHT EVER.  WHERE 6,000 FAN WATCHED ONE DOG FIGTH?
WELL IT WAS STORMER VS PSYCHO.  STORMER WAS A CROSS BETWEEN EBT AND STAFF BT.  THE FIGHT LASTED FOR AROUND ONE HOUR.  AT THE END STORMER (EBT) OVERCOMED FAMOUS PSYCHO STAFF BT.  THIS FIGHT SHOWS HOW GOOD EBT OR STAFFS CAN BE IF BRED RIGHT.  
APBT VS EBT VS STAFF BT= WHO EVER HAS BETTER SKILL.  THE BREED IN THIS CASE DOES NOT MATTER.
PARDON FOR MY ENGLISH AS IS NOT MY MAIN LANGUAGE.  THANK YOU ALL
PS LET'S SUPPORT THE REAL FIGHTERS EBT APBT AND STAFF BT.  I LOOK AT THEM AS ONE WHEN I HAVE TO ARGUE WITH ROTT,AM BULLDOG,TOSA AND MANY OTHER FANATICS.  

 

Answer by kah
Submitted on 11/4/2004
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ebt r  gladiators but iv seen one ripped t bitz in the park by a boxer it doesnot mean boxers r a harder breed its the indvidual dog this boxer was just v-determined as for pits there all me ass.

 

Answer by dogomaria
Submitted on 11/4/2004
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these dog are going to be banned, because of people like you...even if the dogs do like a good scrap.......who's going have the baddest dog then??

 

Answer by dog man
Submitted on 11/12/2004
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i cant beleive this is even a dicussion about it i have had dogs of many so called fighting breeds and i can tell you most of this input is complely b.s. simply put a game pit bull is the best fighting dog in the world.No dogs can break other dogs necks in a matter of seconds or even over an hour, trust ive seen it. i know people who will put any amount of money on 40 -45 lb. dogs no matter what breed you have. It is completely ridiculous to think a bull terrier stands a chance with a true gamedog, watch a bull terrier get his nose chewed on for about an hour, hell scream like a little girl every thing i have will go an hour of the chain. this dosent mean every "pit bull" will whip every bull terrier , but a true gamedog? Cmon are u serious? u can e-mail me @ curtzf81@yahoo.com

 

Answer by Amazed
Submitted on 11/16/2004
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And here I thought most rednecks spent all their money on big trucks (to drive their dogs around in back of, of course).  Who knew they had computers and Internet too?

 

Answer by zealot
Submitted on 11/21/2004
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Some bull  XXXX above all a dog is like its owner there are good bull terriers and bad. I have had one that would do anything that got in his way. Not my fault. But that dog thought it was a game in the end his heart gave up at 5yrs old. I just bought a stffordshire BUll there she 9 months old now. STrong and build like an ox but loves the kids and sleeping in the house. DOgs are dogs what ever the breed agreed like body builders etc its their weight and strenght but its how they are trained and treated. Not what they are born.

 

Answer by jcw_94
Submitted on 11/21/2004
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how would a 250+ pound english mastiff do against some of these dogs. like the tosa or the other big dogs.

 

Answer by WhiteRhino
Submitted on 11/30/2004
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Has anyone seen the Irish Staffordshire Bull Terriers? They are basically Staffies bred like they USED to be, before they stoped fighting and started showing. These dogs are now so different from Staffies that they are considered a different breed. (see Shakers Kennels website!) These dogs are increadibly capable and game, and have been tested against game bred Pit Bulls of the same weights with extremily positive results. Any real dogfighting done in England now is done with these machines! Any Pit Bull fanciers have an opinion on this new breed?

 

Answer by Mx- Rider
Submitted on 12/5/2004
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for all I am a game man and i do like my dogs but EB are strong dogs and capable of fighting but they cant not  beat a game bread APBT they cant not because APBT have many bloodlines and that are divided you find the weight pulling dogs and the show dogs and the fighting dogs  so some people fight these show APBT to the bull terrier and say that the bull terrier won that’s right of course the EB will win  try the fighting APBT and see the difference the EBT will give a hell of A fight but wont win. And for those who talk about how fighting dogs is bad why don’t u stop giving Israel government weapons to stop killing Palestine people and children  how do you see this And by the way APBT enjoy there fights and hardly what they were bred for. Like any freestyle motocross guys the crash they broke rips bones and they do it again after recovering that’s what they like and they will keep doing it.


 

Answer by STELLA
Submitted on 12/14/2004
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i own two ebt's although facinated with this breed i'm also interested in all other bull breeds.  looked on a few sites but can't find many specifically about what the breeds were actually breed for, could anyone e - mail me any pictures of bull breeds particully ebt's or point me in the direction of any good informative sites where.
kind regards
john13579@hotmail.co.uk

 

Answer by rale
Submitted on 12/20/2004
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To Sanity! I think dogs have to fight,not to death but to keep them alive.Dogs are made for that.I think all you smart asses  who keep dogs in the house and give them junk food do more harm(dogs look more like toys)than good fair fight(Not death fight).

 

Answer by xTinkerbellx
Submitted on 1/3/2005
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i think pits wud win. i hav an english bull terrier called Elle, and she wudnt hurt a fly..she dont evn touch cats! however i think this conversation is pointless and dog fighting is disgusting. if u wna fight do it yaself and dont force poor helpless animals to do it. u ppl that do this shud be the ones with the bad names not the dogs. nuff sed. peace x

 

Answer by AKASHADOBIE
Submitted on 1/13/2005
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I THINK ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT DOG FIGHTING IS COOL ARE SICKOS. I THINK YOU ARE USING YOUR DOGS TO MAKE YOURSELVES LOOK BIG DUE TO YOUR OWN INSECURITIES. I THINK EVERYONE WHO DOES THIS SHOULD BE ROUNDED UP, TOOK SOMEWHERE, LOCKED IN A CAGE AND FORCED TO FIGHT UNTIL THEY EITHER CAN NOT FIGHT ANYMORE OR ARE DEAD SO THEY WILL KNOW HOW THE DOGS MUST FEEL.

 

Answer by Mr Jay-T n Kiranpreet
Submitted on 1/21/2005
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DOGS


ü   Definition and types of pressure group
ü   Parties and pressure groups
ü   How pressure groups attempt to influence government
ü   Factors affecting pressure group success
ü   Pressure groups and democracy

Study Guide questions are found at the end of each section


1.   Definition and Classification

o   Samuel Finer has defined pressure groups as 'organisations [which try] to influence the policy of public bodies in their chosen direction; though, unlike political parties, never themselves prepared to undertake the direct government of the country'..
o   Sectional and Promotional or Cause Groups  - Richardson and Jordan outline the distinction in the following terms, ‘There is a basic distinction between self-interested groups pursuing sectional, often economic, ends and those groups which seek to promote a change in social values or practices.’  
o   Sectional interests speak in 'defence' of their members and groups organising shared attitudes seek to'promote'the causes which reflect the attitudes of their members.  
o   Groups such as the CBI or the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM) are sectional groups.  The Child Poverty Action Group (CPAG) serves as an example of a promotional (or cause) group.
o   Another approximate distinction is between groups 'of' and groups 'for': CPAG might be for the poor, but it is not necessarily an organisation of the poor.
o   ‘Sectional (or  Interest)  groups are generally regarded as organisations or associations linked to one's job or occupation, which give individuals in them a set of common interests to pursue.  Good examples are trade unions and professional associations
o   'Cause' and promotional groups, by way of contrast, usually come together on the basis of some principle or activity to which individuals are committed.  
o   The difficulty is that most of the activities of pressure groups overlap at least a little.  Hence the distinction between interest and cause groups is not always clear.  The National Union of Teachers is an interest group but it often expresses the same concern for educational quality as some cause groups.  Equally, some cause groups promote the interests of those who find it difficult to form their own interest group, such as
o   Both sectional and cause groups can be sub-divided. sectional groups include:  
§   Industrial pressure groups - the CBI, NFU, The Engineering Employers Federation;
§   Commercial pressure groups - Motor Agents Association, the Co-operative Movement;
§   Financial pressure groups - the Bank of Enland, the British Insurance Association;
§   Professional pressure groups - the Law Society and BMA;  
§   Trade Unions like the NUR.

o   Examples of trade unions –
§   UNISON (an amalgamation of NALGO, NUPE and COHSE, all public service unions) -membership 1,300,451.
§   The TGWU (Transport and General Workers Union) - membership 881,357.
§   lgamated Engineering & Electrical Union) - membership 720,296
§   The TUC (Trades Union Congress), the trade association for 73 independent trade unions, essentially a union of trade unions - with a combined membership in 1998 of 6.6 million.'
o   With regard to employers' associations, there is
§   the CBI (Confederation of British Industry), which exists primarily to ensure that Governments understand the intentions, needs and problems of British business.  With a membership of more than 250,000 firms, employers' associations and trade associations covering 50 per cent of both the UK's workforce and output, it is the leading 'voice' of business in Britain.
§    Modern rivals for the CBI include the Chambers of Commerce and the Institute of Directors, and there are many more trade associations which speak for different sectors of British industry and commerce.  
§   The NFU (National Farmers' Union) has a membership of 68,817 throughout England and Wales, 75 per cent of the total number of farmers.  
§   Professional associations -  prominent examples  include the Royal College of Nursing which represents nurses, the Law Society for solicitors and the Bar Council for barristers.  
§   A vast array of other groups would also be classified as 'interest groups', such as the Society of Authors, the Royal British Legion, the Association of Licensed Taxi Drivers, the Scottish Whisky Association and the AA (Automobile Association).
o   Cause groups include
§   welfare groups - like Shelter and the Family Planning Association;
§   environmental groups - like the CPRE;
§   Cultural groups - like Christian Union;
§   Recreational groups like the RFU, AAA and FA;
§   International groups like Oxfam.

o   Cause groups include those dedicated to:
§   the cause of environmental protection, such as: - Friends of the Earth - 200,000 members;  Greenpeace - 200,000 members;  The National Trust - 2.5 million members;  The Council for the Protection of Rural England - 46,000 members;
§   to prison reform, such as The Howard League for Penal Reform - 3000 members and supporters;  
§   electoral reform, such as The Reform Society - 2000 members;
§    nuclear disarmament, such as The Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, CND - 35,000 members.
o   Insider Groups - An 'insider group’  has ‘an accepted right to be consulted before policies are authorised’  (Kogan) - that is, before policy is put to parliament.  
o   The BMA and Law Society are insider groups. The basic assumption behind the concept is that both government and groups benefit.  It is obviously in a groups’ interest to establish confidential contact - whichever party is in power - so that the group is consulted whenever the government is contemplating measures which may affect the group.  
o   The implication is that the process of government in Britain involves a process of accommodation between governments and well-organised,, 'responsible' groups who are willing to bargain and compromise in confidence and out of public view.
o   Social Movements - ‘The traditional role undertaken by pressure groups to promote political change in the United Kingdom has more recently been supplemented by organisations termed 'social movements'. These are associated with the leftwing of the political spectrum but have substituted the traditional Marxist emphasis on the overthrow of capitalism with a range of direct action tactics which seek to transform society by redefining social values.
o   The environmental movement is an example of a contemporary social movement.  It has succeeded  in bringing together a range of groups engaged in counter-cultural protest (such as New Age Travellers). and those opposed to hunting, live animal exports, motorway construction and pollution.  
o   These seemingly disparate, single-issue bodies are united by a social vision which resists the culture of advanced capitalist society.  
o   They have used tactics of protest and direct action to project an alternative vision which emphasises environmental considerations rather than  the pursuit of wealth and profit.
o    Single Issue Groups  - at the other end of the spectrum from social movements are single issue groups commonly based on NIMBY issues (not in my back yard). for example, groups grow to protest against specific industrial developments, or new airports or campaign for special laws and then disappear once the campaign has been won or lost.
o   An example is the campaign waged to introduce a version of the US ‘Megan’s Law’ which gives the public knowledge of the whereabouts of sex offenders once they have served their sentence.
   
   Questions
What is a pressure group?
Outline – with examples – different types of pressure group.
   
2.   Parties and Pressure Groups

o   Pressure groups and parties are different: Parties want to become the government, pressure groups only want to influence government.  Action on Smoking and Health (ASH), for example, wants to influence a small part of government policy, but does not want control.
§   Parties have broad policy interests, pressure groups have narrow policy interests.  The Countryside Alliance is concerned with country sports and the countryside, nothing else
§   Parties are primarily political, pressure groups are not.  Many try to avoid politics as much as possible.  The Ramblers'Association becomes involved in politics only when access, walking and the countryside are involved.
§   Parties fight elections, the vast majority of pressure groups do not.  The British Medical Association (BMA) is a powerful pressure group in the health sector, but it does not run candidates for political office.
§   Parties are usually ideological based on sets of political ideals and a philosophy, most pressure groups are pragmatic, designed to look after the interests of their members
o   However, there is no very clear distinction between political parties and pressure groups.  
§   Some pressure groups have a very broad range of policy interests, for example the Trades Union Congress (TUC) and the Confederation of British Industries (CBI).  
§   Some groups (eg Friends of the Earth) are inextricably bound up with politics because of their aims.
§   Certain groups do fight elections, like the Green Party.
§   Many cause groups are highly philosophical - like the animal rights movement.
§   Some ‘parties’ are much more like pressure groups because they have little hope of controlling government, for example, the UK Independence Party and the Referendum Party.

Questions
Distinguish between pressure groups and parties
Why is it difficult to make a clear distinction?

3. Pressure Group Channels of Influence


(a) WHITEHALL

o   Why Whitehall is the most important channel: The most significant channel of influence employed by pressure groups is Whitehall the departments of central government.
§    'The basic fact of pressure group activity in Britain is the inherent strength reposed in any British government, resulting from its extreme centralism.......’ (Parry, 'British Government').
§   Therefore pressure groups which achieve most success aim 'to establish confidential contact with the government, whichever party is in power, so  the group is consulted whenever the government is contemplating measures which may affect the group' (Parry).  This is sometimes referred to as 'insider' status.
§   Groups want to influence government because government distributes enormous economic resources. 'Once it had been largely agreed by all parties that [government] should collect and spend over one third of the national income, tremendous pressures were bound to be brought to bear to influence the distribution of burdens and benefits.' (McKenzie, 'Parties, Pressure Groups and the British Political Process, Political Quarterly, 1958).
§   Government and groups need each other. In such a situation, 'Groups needed government in order to ensure that their members got the share of the economic cake that they desired.  Conversely, government needed the groups...... for advice, for information and for co-operation.  The relationship became one of mutual dependence.' (Philip Norton, 'The British Polity').
o   For governments there are many advantages
§   They have access to a range of advice and information it needs to run a modern society
§   government is more stable because government (through its permanent officials - the civil service) negotiates with major interests and
§   secures their co-operation through compromises and bargains
§   gets their help in implementing policy and mobilising consent among their members.  
§   Conflict is thus limited and controlled.
o   It is common to talk of 'policy communities' - officials in government departments make policy together with a small number of 'client' or insider, groups.  Others - pressure groups and other government departments (and parliament) are excluded.  Relationships are regularised and perhaps institutionalised through an advisory committee.  Pressure groups are responsible and abide by the rules of the game - not criticising the government in public.  
o   The Agricultural Community - at least until the mid-1980s - is a classical example.  In a policy community there is a high degree of agreement between officials and representatives of pressure groups and their relationship is one of bargaining and exchange of information or favours. The classic policy community was in agriculture between the 1930s and the mid 1980s.  The threat of war placed the farmers in a strong position.  The 'Annual Price Review' was established in the 1930s to fix foodstuff prices.  The Ministry of Agriculture negotiated prices with the NFU - all other groups, for example consumer or environmental groups were excluded.  This continued after 1945 because of a world shortage of food.  There was agreement on the basic aim of policy - to increase British production of food and that farmers would receive a high level of state subsidy.  This policy community continued unchallenged, into the 1980s.

o   How groups co-operate with Whitehall:

§   Pressure groups and Whitehall co-operate formally - by serving together on advisory and executive agencies and QUANG0s.  These bodies have increased.  'What is significant is the number of such bodies and the extent to which they are manned by and would be unable to function without members of affected interest groups' (Philip Norton 'The British Polity').  
§   Groups may also be asked to service on Royal Commissions of Committees of Inquiry to advise on specific issues.  
§   They also operate informally - e.g. luncheons hosted by a Minister for a foreign dignitary - salaried group leaders are often invited.

o    Criticisms and Defence : The relationship between pressure groups and Whitehall is open to a range of criticisms most strongly made by Marxist theorists.  

§   Marxists stress the economic basis of politics conflicts take place in a society where wealth is unevenly distributed between two classes, those who own the 'means of production' and those who sell their labour.  
§   An article in The Independent in December 1989, in arguing why the volume of sugar in the British diet is not seriously investigated by the Department of Health pointed out that the chairman of the Medical Research Council - a quango responsible for allocating research fund - was Earl Jellico, a director of Tate and Lyle. advisor on the privatisation programme.
§   These criticisms can be partially countered by the argument that policy in many areas is not controlled by such closed communities, and even in some policy areas which once were dominated by such a relationship, the policy community can break down.  
§   Policy communities are subject to challenges.  Smith outlines a number of reasons why policy-making in closed communities may break down - because of changes in external relations (membership of the EU has disturbed many policy communities in Britain , particularly in agriculture); economic and social change (new groups have arisen interested in peace, racial and sexual equality, animal welfare) new problems arise (for example, environmental issues).  The breakdown of the agriculture policy community illustrates these points.  
§   The key development was Britains's membership of the EEC, the food mountains and their cost to Britain, Conservative MPs were at the forefront of criticisms of the CAP.  Environmentalists were becoming increasing concerned with intensive farming methods; medical experts raised questions about the use of chemicals on the land; the media's interest grew; in addition, there was pressure from the USA, Australia, New Zealand and many third world countries for Europe to cut production as surplus was off-loaded cheaply; the EU has become the largest exporter of food in the world.




(b) PARTIES

o   Links between pressure groups and parties :
§   British government is party government so it is inevitable that pressure groups will have links with the major parties - especially the sectional groups because both the Conservative and Labour parties have widely been seen as based on economic class interests.
§   The Conservative Party has policies and principles which are sympathetic to industry and commerce. By the early 1980's about 300 publicly quoted companies contributed approximately £2 million annually to the Conservative Party - probably approaching 1/4 of total income. Industry and business are not formally represented in the party but are informally represented at all levels from the Cabinet and parliamentary party downwards.
§   The Labour Party has formed links with the union movement which created it.  Through political affiliation, the unions provide the bulk of members, over half the NEC and the great majority of party conference votes plus one third of votes for party leader..   Unions sponsor parliamentary candidates and provide over three-quarters of all party income.
o   Prisoners of vested economic interests ?
§   Both major parties often accuse each other of this yet parties cannot be a simple channel for pressure group interests.  Parties are themselves coalitions of interests and viewpoints and governments must deal with national and international issues much wider than the concerns of domestic economic interests.  Governments must also face re-election.  
§   At the same time, sectional interests cannot afford to be exclusively aligned with one party - they must seek to protect their interests whoever is in power.
§   The Conservatives after 1979 followed an economic policy based on ideology, not the views of industry and business who often wished for more pragmatic government policy.
§   The association of many major sectional groups under broad party umbrellas is very important but it is incorrect to suggest that pressure groups can dictate policy to parties in fact, because the sectional interests would generally prefer a specific government, they have to be prepared to moderate their demands on 'their' party for the sake of electoral success.  Therefore, parties control pressure groups just as much as pressure groups control parties.
   
o   Party Funding :
§   Despite the above conclusion there remain major concerns about party funding. The Constitution Unit reports that ‘ Labour came to power with a commitment to ban political parties from receiving donations from overseas and to oblige them to reveal the source of their income. It also promised to ask the Committee on standards in Public Life to examine the regulation of party funding. The Committee investigated party funding between December 1997 and October 1998. Its final report included recommendations to:
·   increase in the level of state support for the parties in parliament,   
·   enforce disclosure of donations over the value of £5,000 (to the national part of a party) or £1,000 (to a constituency);
·    cap  general election spending by each party of £20m
·   establish an Election Commission, to oversee the disclosure of donations, caps on election spending and other tasks imposed by the new regulations;
·   equal public funding for the main opposing campaign groups in referendums;.
   
   
   c Pressure Groups and Westminister
   
o   The potential of Westminster: pressure groups attempt to influence parliament for three main reasons:
§   To amend legislation
§   To promote legislation
§   To  influence the general climate of opinion
§   The ability of backbenchers and peers to influence legislation is restricted because of the nature of strong, party government.  But parties are not monoliths, leaders do not exercise unquestioned loyalty of their followers.
§   The House of Commons has witnessed significant 'rebellions' of backbenchers since 1970 and a much more effective committee system was established in 1979.  The Lords has become much more independent since 1979.  
§   In additional, there are several circumstances when legislation can be more open to pressure group influence
·   when the government majority is small (e.g. 1964-66, 1974-6, after 1992 - for example the Conservatives dropped post office privatisation in 1994,  Heseltine said, because 9 Tory MPs had told him they could not support the measure) or nonexistent, (1976-79);
·   when there is a free vote in Parliament (e.g. Capital Punishment);
·   when backbench M.P's have the opportunity to introduce Private Members Legislation (e.g. David Steel's Abortion Bill 1969 and attempts to amend it in 1988 by David Alton);
·   when general elections are on the horizon.

o   Who uses parliament ?
§    Parliament tends to be the major channel for many promotional groups which lack 'insider' status.  So groups such as the League Against Cruel Sports, the Ramblers Association, and the Consumers Association direct considerable effort towards parliamentary pressure.
§   Such promotional groups depend on demonstrating that public opinion supports them hence they must publicize their case - get it presented in Parliament, attempt to 'educate' the public and win support.  This is why such groups will usually mount general campaigns to support the parliamentary channel - issuing material to the press, appearing on radio and television.
o   Why do Ministers give way to pressure groups ?
§   Ministers will sometimes give concessions and Finer, in 'Anonymous Empire', identified some broad reasons. Ministers and civil servants are not infallible - they may concede to limit the political dangers if they make mistakes - e.g. the units fine sysytem was quickly withdrawn in 1993; the CSA was reformed in 1995.  
§   Ministers may engage in gamesmanship - Ministers will often concede on minor points if this soothes the passage of the main provisions of a Bill.
§   Electoral support is another factor since governments cannot afford to consistently alienate significant sections of the people.
§   Keeping backbenchers sweet - concessions have to be given to backbenchers especially since parties are broad Churches and constituency interests have to be considered.  Backbenchers are increasingly willing to vote against their own party leaders.
§   Also - the threat of House of Lords opposition may encourage concession to avoid bottlenecks in the legislative process.  The Lords has been much more independently minded since 1979.
§   Ideology is also often significant. . 'Success can often depend on couching proposals in terms which include catch-phrases likely to appeal to certain ideological outlooks' (Davies) e.g. the Conservative administrations after 1979 saw competition as central to policy so the Consumer Association mounted its campaign to end solicitors conveyancing monopoly in these terms.  
   
   
o   How pressure groups work through parliament: Pressure groups use a number of methods when working through parliament.
§   The mass lobby at the House of Commons - the traditional demonstration of mass support was once commonly employed during protracted industrial disputes or during intense public debate, for example in 1988 during an attempt to amend abortion regulations.  
§   Overlapping membership and paid consultancies- many MPs and peers are members of pressure groups or are generally sympathetic to the cause.  Groups may try to recruit MPs  and list them as supporters on their literature e.g. Des Wilson managed to persuade 175 MPs  and 50 peers to officially support the Freedom of Information Campaign.  Many MPs  are willing to speak on behalf of groups because of their shared viewpoin,  without any payment.
§   Extracts from the Register of members interests, March 2001 NICHOLLS, Patrick (Teignbridge) Renumeration:  Wells: tailors, London. (£1,001-£5,000) The Clinical Dental Technicians Association (CDTA). (£10,001-£15,000) Builders Hardware Industry Forum. (£5,001-£10,000) The Glass and Glazing Federation. (£1,001-£5,000) Consultant to Messrs. Dunn & Baker, Solicitors. Occasional fees for writing and broadcasting. Member of Harris Parliamentary Panel. (£1-£1,000) Occasional opinion polls for MORI. 5. Gifts, benefits and hospitality (UK) From late October 1997, loan of a sky dish from News International. Cosmetic treatment to the body work of my motor car by The Plastic Surgeon Ltd of Exeter, Devon. (Registered 28 February 2000) 6. Overseas visits 20-27 April 2000, to Egypt with my wife at the invitation and expense of the Government of Egypt. (Registered 11 May 2000) 8-13 October 2000, to Bahrain accompanied by my wife, on a study tour financed by the Gulf Centre for Strategic Studies. (Registered 2 November 2000) 19-22 October 2000, to Malaga to make a speech; air ticket paid for by Conservatives Abroad. (Registered 2 November 2000) 8. Land and Property Commercial rented property in Devon. 10. Miscellaneous and unremunerated interests Parliamentary representative (unpaid) of the National Ex-Prisoner of War Association.
§   Sponsorship - some groups pay MPs to put their case in Parliament. Trade unions sponsor over  40% of all Labour M.P's, who receive help with election expenses, parliamentary costs and a small salary.
§   Professional lobbyists - there are 30 or so specialist firms which monitor parliamentary business and inform clients of relevant developments; establish contacts between groups and M.P's, civil servants and the media and build up data on M.P's interests and attitudes.  Ken Livingstone used such a consultancy firm in his 'Save the GLC' campaign.  Many of these have been established by M.P's themselves and there is considerable concern about their influence (see below).

o   How can MPs help pressure groups ?
§   MPs assist a pressure group by pulling strings - an enquiry to a Minister is more likely to receive a quick reply if it comes from an M. P. - or through horse trading - M. P's engage in horse-trading behind the scenes so that a promise to support another group's interest will ensure their support in return.  
§   They may ask questions and speak in debates - the NFU have often employed Question Time to help mobilize support and have supplied M.P's with questions to ask the Minister.  This is often done in collusion with the Minister himself who prefers there to be seen to be a groundswell of parliamentary support before taking action.  
§   M.P's may often speak in debates from briefs supplied by pressure groups in their constituencies, e.g. the Scottish Whisky Association.
§   Parliamentary Procedure - putting down amendments to completely irrelevant legislation to prevent a bill which is considered harmful, e.g. in June 1981, Sir Anthony Kershaw tabled 27 out of 164 trivial amendments to the Zoo Licensing Bill - this prevented the next item being debated.  It happened to be a bill to eliminate tobacco sponsorship in sport and the arts.  Kershaw was a paid representative of British American Tobacco.  Alton's attempt to reform abortion law in 1988 was similarly defeated.
§   Private Members Legislation may be used - David Steel's Abortion Bill of 1967 is an example of an M.P working closely with a pressure group , which acted as a research body providing expertise.  The NVALA and Consumers Association have had success with bills concerning video censorship and solicitors conveyancing monopoly.  But if there is a well-organized counter campaign success is unlikely, e.g. between 1967 and 1977 there were 16 unsuccessful attempts to prohibit stag-hunting and hare-coursing because opponents used procedure to block the bills. Industry and business may retain MPs as directors or advisors.


o   Dangers:
§   There are dangers in the process of influencing MPs as well as the advantages such as MPs gaining status, resources and information from their relationship with pressure groups.
§    Only the wealthy and well-organized can exploit the full potential of this channel - by hiring MPs or special agencies.  
§   The tactics of influencing MPs by monetary or other rewards, the procedural methods often used to block proposals and the operation of special agencies - bring democratic politics into disrepute.

d. Courts
o   There is not the same tradition of using the courts as in the USA - this is largely because there is no written constitution in Britain and British courts do not have the same powers as the American Supreme Court.  However, with the passing of the Human Rights Act this is set to change – perhaps dramatically.
o   The Human Rights Act: The UK has been a signatory of the Convention of Human Rights since 1953.   Individuals, often supported by pressure groups, have taken cases to the European Court of Human Rights  with some success e.g. corporal punishment in schools was declared contrary to the convention - the case was supported by STOPP.  Success has also been achieved in the area of equal pay and freedom of prisoners mail from censureship.
o   In October 2000,  the Human Rights Act came into effect, incorporating the ECHR into UK law. This has great potential for making the courts a major target for pressure group campaigns. The Labour Government’s incorporation of the ECHR into British law requires  a different balance between a Bill of Rights interpreted by judges and the power of elected politicians.  
§   Labour’s Bill makes it unlawful for public bodies (including government departments, agencies, the police, prison officers, privatised utilities and the armed forces) to exercise their powers in ways which are incompatible with the ECHR.
§   Citizens will be able to appeal to the principles enshrined in the ECHR in any court in Britain. Courts will be able to quash actions of public bodies and to grant compensation to victims of abuse of power.
§   Acts are to be interpreted in ways which are compatible with the ECHR (ie if there is ambiguity or vagueness, the ECHR will be used to interpret an Act in ways which make it fit the principles of the convention).
§   If parliament passes legislation  which the higher courts believe is not compatible with the ECHR, they can issue a formal declaration to that effect.
§   The courts will not have the power to veto such an act as unlawful, but the Labour White Paper states that such a declaration will ‘almost certainly’ prompt a government to change the law.
§   So, as envisaged by the current government, parliamentary sovereignty will remain intact but the ECHR will have both legal and moral force in restricting the actions of parliament and government.
§   Challenges to deportation orders for asylum seekers, more family friendly conditions for prisoners and an end to postcode rationing of NHS drugs are just some of the potential consequences of the Human Rights Act.
§    Prisoners located hundreds of miles from their homes, or denied conjugal visits or artificial insemination, or those in mother and baby units eventually separated from their children, might claim an infringement of their right to family life.
§   Action against the NHS is also expected. Under article two, the right to life, the state must not only refrain from taking life but has to safeguard it. Thus patients could challenge the postcode rationing of certain lifesaving drugs if a particular drug were available on the NHS in Oxford but not in Newcastle.
o   Legal reform : Another factor in the increasing use of courts as a political forum is that there has been a wave of government sponsored legal reforms in the last twenty years, for example, limiting the right of silence and more recently, suggesting that the principle of double jeopardy be ended.
o   Administrative Review: Courts in Britain have the duty to ensure that public officials do not act beyond the authority parliament has granted (ultra vires rule) and that they abide by the common law principle of natural justice.  
o   Groups have used the courts to challenge government decisions e.g. the unions at GCHQ unsuccessfully challenged the Conservative governments decision to prohibit union membership on security groups but The World Development Movement was successful in its attempt - in the High Court - to get Britain's aid contribution towards the building of the Pergau Dam in Malaysia, declared a misuse of public funds. A recent example is shown below.
o   Politicisation of the Law : - since 1979 the courts have become much more involved in political disputes. For example, in March  2001, a leading QC from Matrix chambers, where Cherie Booth is a founding member, argued on behalf of the Fawcett Society,  that five male judges cannot be an impartial court in deciding where the balance lies between the right of male defendants to a fair trial and the rights of their female accusers to privacy and dignity. The lords must decide whether a "rape shield" law which came into force in December, making evidence of a woman's sexual past inadmissible in deciding whether she consented, violates a defendant's right to a fair trial. The Fawcett Society is calling on the law lords to ensure that two women sit on the five-strong panel for the case.

e. The Media
o   Wyn Grant has outlined several ways pressure groups try to use the media to exert
   leverage on politicians,
§   Visibility refers to the use of the media to establish a presence, and to recruit and retain members.  For example, a television programme called ‘The Animals Film ' was an important moment in the growth of public awareness of animal exploitation' (Porritt and Winner 1988, p. 52).  
§   Constant exposure for the group in the media reassures its membership that it is active, and helps in the retention of members.  There is little point in recruiting a large number of new members as a result of a blitz of media activity if their interest cannot be engaged and their support retained.
§   Using the media as a means of exerting influence  on government is clearly particularly important. Sometimes, the government can be embarrassed into changing its mind through leaks of its intentions.  'The classic case occurred in 1977 when the Child Poverty Action Group leaked Cabinet minutes indicating that the Government was intending to postpone introduction of the child benefit scheme.  The decision was reversed with trade union support mobilised by the leaks. and child benefit was phased in.
§   The case of Phoenix the calf helped focus the farmers’ campaign to end culling of healthy animals during the foot and mouth outbreak in the spring of 2001.
§   Media coverage can reinforce a case being made to civil servants by demonstrating that the matter is one of public concern.  It may help to move the problem up the political agenda.  
§   Environmental groups have been able to use media coverage to arouse public opinion and obtain a response from a previously indifferent government department.  In relation to issues such as the introduction of lead-free petrol and against the introduction of heavier lorries, 'the media interest transformed what had previously been a humdrum administrative matter into a sensitive political issue' (Lowe and Goyder 1983. p. 79).
§   Pressure groups may lobby the media directly and attempt to influence the content of its output.  A meeting between environmentalists and Robert Maxwell led to a three-month campaign on environmental issues in Mirror newspapers.  
g. Direct Action

o   Influencing government through attempting to ‘educate’ and mobilise public opinion is normally a sign of weakness – but circumstances do change. Sectional groups sometimes resort to direct action if other methods break down, for example the NFU have mounted direct action demonstations on many occasions since 1997.   Educational and image-building techniques are employed as a matter of course by a wide variety of sectional and promotional groups.
o   But some promotional groups rely almost exclusively on public pressure. Wyn Grant calls these 'ideological’ outsider groups - they do not want to become too closely entangled with the political system because they wish to radically challenge authority or accepted policy.  CND and environmental  like ALF are examples. Also single issue groups for a by-pass, or against a power station, or for a Welsh TV channel or tax discs - generally must mobilise  mass public support before they can expert success.
o   The May Day anti-capitalism rallies are good examples of direct action.
o   To be successful such groups must convince the government that there has been a sea-change in public opinion.  There are examples of such groups, for example ASH, in conjunction with the BMA.  
o   The campaign to keep Bart's Hospital open :  A public campaign in the early 1990s, notable for its skilful handling of the media, exploitation of contacts and presentation of a reasoned alternative course of action is the campaign to save St Bartholomew's Hospital in London, which was threatened with closure by a Department of Health review.
o   Bart's is more than just a major London hospital catering for some 400,000 local residents and several hundred thousand more commuters.  It is also a national referral centre.  Heart patients travel from as far as Wales.  The children's cancer services, built up over 20 years, are internationally renowned.  The hospital is also nationally respected for gastroenterology, diabetes and the treatment of hormone disorders.
o   But the Conservative government was determined to rationalise specialties in London, to cut unneeded beds and release more money to improve the capital's dilapidated primary health care services. Bart's, on the doorstep of Fleet Street, is not short of media connections and they were quickly exploited.  Jane Dacre, a Bart's consultant, alerted her husband Nigel, who is editor of ITN, and her brother-in-law Paul, editor of the Daily Mail.  Anthony  Clare, a former professor of psychiatry at the hospital talked to BBC colleagues.  Jane Anderson, a senior lecturer in Aids and wife of the television presenter Clive Anderson, spread the word among her colleagues.
o   The media was bombarded with argument - any bit of information that might help the cause, such as the fact that the time Tomlinson had spent at the hospital was not more than five hours. A vital figure in the campaign was the popular Professor Lesley Rees, dean of the Bart's medical school.  She immediately harnessed the loyalty of Bart's medical students and as a member of the Press Complaints Commission was able to use her contacts with editors.  'It was not so much that we wanted to tell people what to write,' she says.  'We wanted them to know very quickly what could happen. 'The idea of closing Bart's to balance the health care books seemed to reflect a general malaise in this country.  Quality of care and years of loyalty were left out of the equation.  It was like saying Westminster Abbey should be demolished to build  offices.'
o   The final political breakthrough may well have been the debacle over the mines.  It is reckoned that the Government was loath to risk a similarly expensive one over London hospitals.  In the end, Virginia Bottomley – the minister - decided to give Bart's a partial reprieve, confining it to specialised treatment and research.  The site of the hospital close to the levers of power and influence was vital to the success of the campaign.  ‘That success is a dramatic demonstration of the powers that can be unleashed when the professional classes exploit their considerable network of contacts and lobbying skills’. (Daily Telegraph, 13 February 1993)

Questions
Explain the different methods pressure groups use to try to influence government.

4. Factors which influence pressure group success

a.  Nature and scope of membership

o   A pressure group which:
§   has a monopoly on representing a section of society
§   represents an easily organisable economic interest
§   concentrates its efforts on the political defence of those interests
§   has  considerable potential political influence.

o   The power of a group depends to a considerable extent on both the coverage and the cohesion of its membership.  If a group has a clear identity and purpose and if it manages to attract into its membership a high proportion of those eligible to join, it can be said to have a good coverage and is likely to be effective in defence of its members' interests.  This has been borne out by the British Medical Association (BMA) which over the years has had over 80 per cent of all practising doctors in membership
o   On the other hand, if a group seeks to represent a wide range of interests, it is likely to have little natural cohesion and to be rather ineffective in defence of its members' interests.  For example, neither the TUC, which seeks to represent 73 affiliated trade unions and 6.6 million individual trade unionists, nor the CBI, which seeks to do the same for more than 250,000 subscribing companies and employers' and trade associations, has been really effective on behalf of its members, since the need to be inclusive has weakened the cohesion and hence the effectiveness of each organisation.  The TUC has had the added problem that the membership of trade unions declined by 45 per cent - more than 5.5 million members between 1979 and 1998, while the CBI has had the obvious difficulty of trying to represent employers both large and small in both the private and public sectors.  For these reasons, among others, neither organisation has been particularly powerful or effective in recent times.
o   Teachers have been weakened as a political force because the profession is represented by a range of often-conflicting unions.

b. Unity  and Loyality of the rank and file

o   The degree of loyalty shown by the rank and file towards their leaders and spokesmen is another aspect of the relative power or weakness of any group.
o   When the activities of pressure group leaders seem likely to prejudice the interests of the ordinary members, the rank and file are quite likely to reject the lead which is given.  For example, Arthur Scargill, as President of the NUM, was opposed by a majority of his own members when he was precipitate in seeking their endorsement for a political campaign of industrial action against the 1979-83 Conservative Government and succeeded only in splitting his union in 1984-85 when he persuaded his Executive to launch an all-out strike against threatened pit closures without first securing the support of his members in a union ballot.
o   Other groups are not easy to organise. For example, railwaymen are split into grades  and engine drivers have their own ‘elite’ union which aims to protect the privileges of its members from those in lower grades as well as deal with the management. It is even more difficult to organise diverse groups like consumers to, for example, boycott particular goods, shops or manufacturers.
o   Business, professional and commercial enterprises find it easier to organise and agree on policies, for example airlines may agree on fare tariffs, oil producers on prices and so on because relevant decision-makers can easily communicate.

c. Political leverage
o   The power of pressure groups also depends on the degree of political leverage which they can exert. In 1989 the brewing industry showed its ability to sway the then Conservative Government, partly through its ability to exploit a clever and hard-hitting advertising campaign, partly through an adroit use of political contacts, and partly because many Conservative backbenchers realised the significant part which it played in providing financial support for the party.
o   Such leverage can take the form of an ability to deny to the rest of society the provision of goods or services which  the community  cannot easily do without and which others are not able to supply.  For example, power station workers or air traffic controllers can be in such a position, as can computer operators in the Civil Service or safety workers in the water industry.
o   Some groups have used campaigns of civil disobedience as a way to try and achieve their aims. The Suffragettes were an early example. More recently there has been:

§   the wide-scale campaign for the non-payment of the Poll Tax;
§   the port demonstrations co-ordinated by CIWF (Compassion in World Farming) against the live animal export trade in 1994-95;
§   the action taken by Welsh farmers against McDonalds over their purchases of British Beef in 1998;
§   the activity of DAN (Disabled People's Direct Action Network) which has fought    hard in recent years to change the face of disability activism - such as lying on the pavement outside Downing Street in pools of blood-red paint.
§   Other groups have become involved - some intentionally, others unintentionally - in direct action which has involved violence.  Examples of this are: the inner city riots of the early 1980s, the Poll Tax riot in Trafalgar Square in 1990, and the riot against the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill in 1994; the actions of the Animal Liberation Front involving arson attacks in the early 1990s; some of the excesses witnessed at the direct action campaigns against the Newbury bypass, the Exeter-Honiton A30 extension scheme, the Twyford Down cutting and the Manchester Airport extension in the mid-to-late 1990s.
o   Actions which harm other members of the public are often counter-productive like tube strikes or teacher or doctor axtions which hit parents and patients.
d. Expertise and  Civil Service contacts
   
o   The strength and frequency of contacts with the Civil Service is another aspect of the power and influence of groups. On the whole, established groups prefer to have a continuous, quiet influence on the process of Government rather than an intermittent and noisy impact based on the use of media publicity and the staging of public demonstrations.  
o   They use their reliable and frequent contacts with Whitehall and the expertise of their own professional staff to influence Ministerial decisions and the detailed content of legislation.  In such cases resorting to widely publicised campaigns is almost an admission of failure.
o   A number of groups secure official representation on advisory committees established within the orbits of Whitehall Departments and in this way are able to support and monitor the detailed aspects of policy implementation.  This gives them:

·   extra status and recognition in Whitehall

·   rights of access to Ministers when the need arises

·   and opportunities for consultation and influence not available to others outside the charmed circle of customary consultative arrangements in central Government.  

o   The classic case has probably been the relationship between the Road Transport Federation, the principal lobby group for the road freight interest, and the Department of Transport which, until a shift of policy in 1994, had consistently pushed ahead with the road building programme seemingly in defiance of the Treasury, the competing railway lobby and the general environmental interest.  Another example would be the Prison Reform Trust, which has established a niche role despite having neither a large membership nor significant financial resources; the Home Office always consults the Trust when considering policy on prisons.
e. Publicity value
o   The publicity traditionally secured by the Child Poverty Action Group for poor families with children or by Shelter for the homeless was beneficial to those particular sections of society, at any rate as long as Ministers were either sympathetic to their arguments or embarrassed into action
o   In the early 1980s the Campaign for Lead-Free Air (CLEAR) was able to make considerable headway towards achieving its goal as a result of the publicity arising first from the leaking of a letter from the Government's Chief Medical Officer to the effect that lead in petrol was permanently reducing the IQ of many children, and then from the report of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution which confirmed the dangers to children and called for the banning of lead in petrol.
o   In 1998 the Countryside Alliance not least via a march through London which drew an estimated 250,000 people raised the profile of a whole range of rural concerns, placing the countryside firmly on the political agenda.

f. Financial power

o   Not even the most lavishly funded campaigns achieve their objectives simply because they can out-spend their opponents - as the billionaire Sir James Goldsmith found in 1997 when he spent £20 million and failed in his efforts to secure a referendum on Britain's future in the European Union. Whatever the reasons, it is difficult to point to any occasions when money on its own has bought success for a pressure group.
o   However, the  discussion of the Marxist view of pressure groups points to many examples of the influence of wealth. During Neil Hamilton's libel suit against Mohamed al-Fayed and the Guardian, a Mobil executive testified that Hamilton, then on the Commons Finance Committee, demanded cash for defending the oil company's positions. The executive was 'horrified', as Mobil had legitimately approached Hamilton without thought of payment. Nevertheless, the firm suggested the payment be invoiced as a consulting fee, though 'The reality was that we were buying off Mr Hamilton for what he had done, in connection with this tax issue.'
o   In what must be the most stunning - and unreported - statement of the trial, Mobil's barrister informed its executive that 'This was the normal course of things for some MPs who did ask for payment.' Really? Which other MPs? And how much? And which other companies received bills from 'Parliamentarians-R-Us'? Most important, is this still business as usual?
o   During the long period of Conservative rule from 1979 until 1997, critics of the Government argued that its health policy was undermined by the financial and political power of the tobacco industry which successfully resisted pressures for a complete ban on all tobacco advertising.

g. Voting power
o   Trade union influence on the Labour Party stems from the fact that the creation of the Labour Party at the end of the nineteenth century was largely the work of the trade unions and ever since then trade union influence within the wider movement was often significant and occasionally decisive.  However, in the 1990s the links between the Labour Party and the trade unions became the focus of considerable debate, and there was even some talk of a 'friendly divorce'.  Nonetheless, the connection is one of the defining links in British politics, and although it has changed and may change further, it is doubtful that it will be ended. The Labour Party therefore has to keep in mind this relationship and its commitment to the minimum wage reflects this connection.
o   Groups like senior citizens – now with their own union – have considerable voting party as was shown in Gordon Brown’s 2001 budget.

h. Historical Circumstances and the Party in Power
The Conservatives
o   After 1979  Conservative ministers  did not seek cooperation of trade unions for an incomes policy and privatised many government-owned industries. After 1979 there was more conflict between interest groups, largely in the public sector, and the Conservative government than at any other period in the post-war era.  Three factors may explain this:
§   The Thatcher government made no secret of its wish to change the direction of policy in much of the public sector.  Groups which have an interest in the status quo were therefore likely to be offended.
§   Ministers wished to constrain the growth of public spending on many services and to reduce state subsidies; again, it is not surprising that interests dependent on such expenditure, notably on health, social welfare, education, and local government, complained.
§   Ministers, finally, took seriously claims that the authority of an  elected government should not be compromised by bargains with sectional interests, particularly the trade unions. School teachers found that a core curriculum, national testing of pupils, and a contract of service was imposed on them. In 1989 the doctors had new contracts imposed on them by the Ministry of Health.  These limit their budgets and link a greater part of their pay to the number of patients they treat.  In 1989 the Lord Chancellor proposed changes to the legal profession, notably ending the barristers' exclusive rights of audience in the higher courts and the solicitors' monopoly conveyancing services.  


New Labour and pressure groups
o   New Labour relationships with the unions promised to be less close than under previous Labour Administrations but also closer than those of the previous Conservative Governments.  New Labour made manifesto promises attractive to the unions including a statutory minimum wage, the signing of the European Social Chapter and the promise of union recognition where the majority of the work force vote for a union to represent them.  Moreover, despite the reduction of their role, the unions' influence within the party remained considerable and they contributed £11 million to the party's election campaign.  By early 1998, the Labour Government had pleased the unions by signing the Social Chapter, removing the ban on unions at GCHQ, and setting up a Low Pay Commission to examine the minimum wage
o   New Labour made a determined pre-election effort to reassure business and where possi