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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ An alt.support.depression Sampler, part 3 of 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone sort of new to ASD wrote: I am not saying this to offend people, but this group is just a bit ridiculous. I looked into it because of my depression and to get support. But to see topics about male anatomy, daylight savings, etc is very disappointing. Depression is a serious problem that shouldn't be taken lightly or insulted with unrelated or improper topics. Again, this is not to tick anyone off, its just my feelings on this group. Spider <firstname.lastname@example.org> responded with: Yes, some of the responses may have seemed a little harsh to you. But please understand. To many of us, it seemed as though you waltzed in here and said "my goodness, obviously you people are just a bunch of blithering idiots who don't treat their illness seriously". We do. We have to live with it. But I don't think I could hang around if it were ALL serious discussions. We DO have plenty of serious support, discussion, and information. When you get to know us better you'll be able to pick it out easier. Welcome. LAnn <email@example.com> wrote: In its broadest sense, codependency can be defined as an addiction to people, behaviors, or things. Codependency is the fallacy of trying to control interior feelings by controlling people, things, and events on the outside. To the codependent, control or the lack of it is central to every aspect of life. .... Codependents can be like vacuum cleaners gone wild, drawing to themselves not just another person, but also chemicals (alcohol or drugs, primarily) or things -- money, food, sexuality, work. They struggle relentlessly to fill the great emotional vacuum within themselves. .... "There is something missing inside me." (From the book "Love is a Choice" by Drs. Robert Hemfelt, Frank Minirth and Paul Meier.) Editors note: Ok, so this wasn't an "original" quote. *I* liked it anyway, and *I* get to chose what goes in this list. You think this is easy, then *you* make a list like this ..... *sigh* ..... sorry. I guess I am feeling a little frustrated today. Patricia Walters <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: I read postings that are crying out for help....and I want to help...but I don't answer because I fear making things worse. I wonder if anyone else feels this way? Bev Thornton <email@example.com> wrote about another "regular" ASD poster: Some depressed people will go to great lengths to get people to hate them in order to have the views they hold of their own self mirrored in the views they see that others hold of that self. It's like they want their negative self-image supported. I think that's what's happening here. He's trying to get people on ASD to have the same view of himself as he does. It seems to me that when regular members of ASD suddenly appear to become angry trolls, they only do it for awhile. It sometimes happens when they're in an active crash - one where they have the energy to do things. So it can be a particularly dangerous time of short duration. Maybe we could put up with this one for awhile. Gives us a chance to break through the fog. Mourning Dove <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: I am becoming so frustrated by my reluctance to be more open, to ask for what I need. I have all of the "avoidant personality" traits that someone else here wrote about recently. It even affects me here. Yet, something in me longs to be different, so I remain here, making oh-so-feeble attempts at interacting with others. I'm struggling right now.....so much I want to express, but here I sit, immobilized...... Someone recently spoke to me of taking "baby steps". I guess I'll just send this off, and consider it a baby step, while promising myself to try again later. mourning dove (in the pit, trying to give herself permission to ask for support) menahuny <email@example.com> wrote: I'm scared of ASD even when you are welcoming. I'm scared of you when you are joking. I'm intimidated by your signature files. I'm scared of your history. I'm scared of your strength when you "out" yourself here; make yourself vulnerable. I'm scared of your strength to live through what all of you have lived through. I'm scared of the energized power you maintain even as you work like a wave: like a sound wave with your general ups and your general downs. I'm scared of your power to complement one another through your individual waves: your ability to come to the aid of those who are down when you are up. For 2 months I've lurked now, and I'm still scared to post but I need to. I'm scared like all delurkers to bring my guard down and become RAW. I'm scared of being ignored and I'm scared of being picked apart and I'm scared of being misunderstood here -even here- where right now I'm putting myself out there to finally be understood by *you*, because no one else can and if *you* can't, then I'm scared no one can. I'm scared because my past upsets me, as does my future, although I can find no reason for either. I'm scared because I feel that my everyday actions are not me. I take the GREs in 3 days and I can't even concentrate on finishing this sentence. I'm scared of so much deep inside but right now I'm trying to focus on accomplishing this *one thing* and I'm failing at it. Is it possible to feel a need for a faceless entity that has unknowingly shown its soul to you? Do you realize your power? Do *you* know that by just connecting to one phrase that is spoken by *you*, I cry? I am raw now. marien <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote in response: What a great post. I was so scared of posting that it took me literally years. At some point the need to connect overcame the fear, but I'm still scared every time I send something. I worry about being stupid, boring, irrelevant. That my writing is stiff and charmless. Those are the same fears that I have in my real life interactions, you know, always thinking about if I said the right thing, revisiting conversations and thinking about what I should have said differently, never totally certain if people really like me, or if they just tolerate me, etc. But, I'm glad I started posting, it has really helped. I don't quite feel at home yet, but I'm really glad to have dared to delurk. Welcome, and I hope you keep writing. KNAPPEE <email@example.com> wrote in response: I was once standing where you are now. Right on the edge. I lurked for 2 or 3 days and then I just jumped in, because if I hadn't, I would have died. I jumped without knowing if anyone would catch me. But they did. And my life will never be the same. Here, jump right here and I will catch you in my scarred, battle weary arms. You are truly among friends here. I loved your post. You are very brave. KNAPPEE <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: I know I'm a very needy person and I know this is going to seem like whining, but oh please, please, if you could just write me and tell me I should hang on, I would so appreciate it. I'm afraid to get offline, I'm afraid to leave this room, I'm afraid to quit writing. So please, if you could just spare a word or two, it would help, I know it would. I'm praying it will, because this hurts so bad. I'll just stay online and write till I feel better. Thingy <email@example.com> wrote: My psych suggested that I read a book called "Learned Optimism" between now and next week's appointment. I don't know what to make of this "positive thinking" stuff. I appreciate that thinking "I'm a failure" doesn't help matters (although I've not managed to stop thinking that yet), but I don't think that I'd suddenly switch into a positive world view if I started thinking "I'm an interesting and worthwhile human being". My SO, who has otherwise impeccable taste, keeps telling me that and I don't believe her, so I can't imagine that I'm going to listen to someone like myself who is so consistently wrong about things. Lethe <Lethean@webtv.net> wrote: Time to quit lurking and say Hello. I've learned to know and love most of you. I've watched you care for each other, support each other, perhaps even save each other's lives. I've watched in disbelief as you grabbed at troll bait and then wondered why the barbed hook hurt so much. I've seen love, frustration, and anger. Also awe, confusion, humility, and openhearted joy. You are a light in my life. Editors Note: There are 3 quotes from Lethe in this Sampler. He died on August 13th, 1998. Only a couple of weeks after being diagnosed with lung cancer. He was 53. I feel very sad. Idisin <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: How much of what is inside gets lost in the translation from me to you? How much do words confine, limit, express? Am I OK? No, but I play the game well. Lately, I've been slipping more often than not. I'm scared to death of getting older, growing colder, and adopting meaningless distractions. What happens when I can no longer reach inside and pull out another reason to endure? Is there release or merely compromise? I'd like to think that I didn't have to take pills to be all right. They make you think that you thought your way into this so now it is up to you to think your way out. But it's not about thinking. It is about being lost in the darkness, becoming the darkness, and therefore you are unable to decipher the darkness that envelops you. Please keep the steady hum of your words moving around me because the silence threatens to overwhelm me. Rain <email@example.com> wrote: I've been debating about trying to become a part of this group again. I was here, briefly, last spring, but didn't seem to get much response so I returned to lurk-mode. In some ways, I desperately want to belong to this group, because you all are a great group of people, and this is a wonderful resource. What concerns me about being a part of this group is what I term a "culture" of depression that exists here. On one hand, it is a necessity for all of us to discover that there are others like us, that we are not alone, and I can't begin to say just how much that has changed my life. But I wonder how much that "culture" reinforces the depression? As someone who has tried to live as "normal" a life as possible under the circumstances (with mixed results), I am still trying to determine what exactly "normal" is. In ASD, I find that what is normal here is not at all normal to the outside world. It almost seems that to fit in here, one can't be "normal" or show signs of feeling good (it seems like it's in bad taste given all the suffering going on here) and that strikes me as giving in to the depression in a way that I'm not sure is good. Does anybody else have any thoughts on this? "tghgirl" <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: I can't explain it. I feel like I have just been torn, ripped apart inside, and left for dead. Did I leave myself like that? I had a session w/my Pdoc today. She had gone on vacation for two weeks and I didn't respond to the situation very appropriately. I'd have to say I crashed. Hard. I had to deal with that among the rest of me. She's really nice, and she doesn't play games (she calls it like it is - which is good). I feel like I have disappointed her and wasted her time dealing with me. <sob> Why can't I get a grip on myself?? My boyfriend is with his family until Saturday and I miss him. I always seem to screw up my life with no ones help - that's an accomplishment. Now I have also disappointed a couple of people that I really look up to for guidance, approval, and wisdom on things I don't understand about myself. Why do I have to be such a LOOSER?? Why do I have to screw things up all the time?? <<sob>> I just want to crawl under a rock and hide/die. IT HURTS SO MUCH....I CAN'T HANDLE THIS....IT'S TOO OVERWHELMING AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO <<<sob>>> Someone posted the following to ASD: I was trying to explain to my husband what goes on in my mind and how I feel, and he came up with this story about a long lost friend who always told him that you have to make the best of things and be happy with what you got. I really think he's missing the point when it comes to depression and he doesn't understand, but then I start getting paranoid and think it's just me and my screwed up mind. I need some opinions here please. Bev Thornton <email@example.com> responded with: I think people say that because they see depression as a reactive, situational state. They can only compare it to things in their own experience. In normal experience moods are reactive to cues in the environment. In our state I think a lot of it is just internal misfiring of neural systems involved in the experience of emotion and the process of thought. So it is something beyond the experience of most people. A chaos they cannot know. The closest they could come would be a comparison to a reactive state of sadness, something that it is best to make the best of. But that is something very different from an experiential base of overwhelming and undifferentiated, objectless and unreactive, sadness, fear, anxiety, and despair. What is that Christian saying? "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." John II <JHSII@IX.Netcom.Com> responded with: Comments such as these are generally made by people who don't have a clue and, in my experience, want to avoid discussing the real problem. Pink <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: Am I the only one who get's a bit annoyed with the apparent ASD in-group? You know, the people who get like 20 replies to anything and everything they post on this newsgroup. The guys who seemed to be chased by twenty ASD women. The girls who seemd to be chased by twenty ASD men. The people whose names are known to everyone who reads and posts here. I'm not blaming the "in" people for being "in". But I do feel like saying this to you: - How can you be depressed when you're so NOT alone? How can you be depressed when ten people say "I love you, and I'm here for you" every time you open your mouth? How can you be depressed when there are people just lined up to listen to you? How can you be depressed when you have so many friends? I'm sorry. I know that you have a chemical illness (and maybe a traumatic life), and of course all the stuff above doesn't matter one bit in the end...but when I feel so alone and so unwanted all the time, and I work so hard at all times to deal with that and not let it make me depressed, I can't help but get angry at people who aren't alone and aren't unwanted yet still can't find something to feel good about. Still wishing I were one of the popular kids. Cyndi <email@example.com> responded with: Maybe all newbies should have a sponsor. Someone to help them get noticed and set them firmly on the ASD path to recovery. Holly <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: I've been out of the hospital for a little over a month now and I think I'm a long way from well. I'm not as doped-up on psychotropics cuz the pdoc cut down on my meds. But I'm still so easily overwhelmed, and so TIRED all the time. I don't know if I'll ever reach my goal of being a teacher -- it sounds silly, but I can't write this paper I need to for my incomplete in political science. I can't go to school full-time; how do I ever manage to work full-time? My bankruptcy is completed as far as what I have to do. I'm sick of trying to rebuild my life. It is so never-ending. And I hate myself for whining to ASD about it. I know it could be worse just from reading others' posts. What right have I to complain? Am I always going to be alone? A discouraged Holly. Mik <email@example.com> wrote: I sure could use some encouragement about now. I finally forced myself to try and get some help, and my first doctors appointment is tomorrow morning. I am so scared. What do I say? I feel like asking for help is admitting that I can't take care of myself. I should be able to beat this stupid depression on my own like I beat all the other problems that come up in my life. I like it here because people know some of the things that I'm feeling and they understand. I feel like other people who find out will think I'm just a loser or some sort of freak. I used to feel like I could accomplish so much in my life. Now it's a miracle if I go outside in the day time. Sorry for rambling. Guess thats what happens when I finally let some emotion out. I'm so used to having to pretend there's nothing wrong so people will think I'm normal. I'm tired of pretending. I just want this to go away. Thanks for listening. <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: I have recently discovered a series of newsgroups each devoted to a certain aspect of depression, such as treatment, crisis, etc. Unlike this newsgroup, which has degenerated into an absolute circus, they stick to the topic, offer genuine caring advice relevant to the situation, they are polite, do not flame, do not "clique" or have "personality cults/contests". So far they have managed to avoid trolls. I am not sure if they are moderated, but they are far superior to the ignorance and idiocy that seems to be all that is left of your once wonderful group. For those of you truly interested in support for your illness, give them a try. mandisa <email@example.com> responded with: I haven't been here in about a year and a half, but maybe that allows me some objectivity in observation. It hardly seems to me that this group has "degenerated into a circus", nor that "ignorance and idiocy" are all it has left to offer. I, for one, have visited some of the other groups mentioned, and though you are right that they do "stick to the subject", they don't seem to get much traffic. when I'm depressed, I might have questions about meds, sure, but 9/10's of the time I want to talk about how I started skipping classes again or that the only thing that brings me any joy when I'm down is potato chips; I, like most of the people here it would seem, want to talk about all the little nooks and crannies of our lives into which depression has spread. In a nutshell, it seems some other depression news groups lack the very thing I most value about *this* group -- they don't seem to have much soul. For people just after some clinical information, that may be ideal, and I'm glad such forums exist. But it seems to me that ASD is beyond just a bulletin board support group, and is something of a community. Further, why does where one goes for help on the 'net have to be exclusive to one place? That seems counter-productive, in fact -- different groups, as I've already said, have different things to offer. And finally, while everyone is entitled to their opinion, you might keep in mind that it comes off as a little self-defeating to be posting snide comments to a group you believe has too much of that to begin with. Editors note: There are no moderated usenet newsgroups related to depression. Other usenet newsgroups related to depression include: alt.depressed.as.fuck, the alt.support.depression hierarchy (including asd, asd.manic, asd.medication, asd.rapid-cycling, asd.rapid.cycling, asd.recovery, asd.seasonal and asd.teens), and the soc.support.depression hierarchy (including ssd.crisis, ssd.family, ssd.manic, ssd.misc, ssd.seasonal, ssd.treatment). Lisa <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: Going nuts at work again. Can't yell (unseemly and unprofessional) can't cry (makes them send me home to "get better"). Just once I would like to hear them actually *say* "we can express our frustration but you cannot." But no. When I yell I am a major disturbance, and when they do they are "letting off steam - nothing personal". When I cry I am sick. I must need a better doctor, must be in crisis; "you don't see anyone else in the office acting that way." When they sent me home a few weeks ago I know they wouldn't have been surprised if I'd never come back. They thought I'd cracked for good. The doctor who has been treating me for two years didn't think I was going down for the count; or she wouldn't have prescribed anti-anxiety pills I could hurt myself with. When someone tells you what happens does not happen you have been erased. If my boss would only say that things have been very hard around here (in some context other than as an excuse for being snippy with me) I would feel so much better. But no, I am not wronged, I am wrong. Unless I say that, at which point everyone tells me how much they "like" me. What they might like about me I have no idea. LAnn <email@example.com> wrote: ASD is like an open diary...Anyway, that's what it seems like to me. An open to the public window into tormented hurting people's honest heartfelt stories from their own personal point of view. denise <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: All I can say is that I've been there, in that black hole with that little dot of light getting smaller and smaller and me getting more and more crazy and things starting to make sense that make no sense at all and I have written so slowly that it takes an eternity to finish a sentence. I've been there and I've done that and sometimes I go back to that place, never willingly and always afraid that this will be the time that I will take all the pills and not throw them up or this will be the time I get into my car and have the guts to drive at 100 miles an hour into that tree that looks so much like the answer to all my problems. And I write. I write and write and fill white spaces with black letters and tell myself I can't do those things because I have to finish writing this thing and I have to smoke this cigarette and what I'm really doing is somehow hoping that I will never be finished writing cause really, I don't want to die. I do but I don't. Yeah, I am heading that way again and I will sit at this computer and I will smoke too much and I will say too much and I will write things that "disturb" people and I will not feel any better but if I don't do that, if I do what I want to do, I will cease to exist and is that really an option? Do I really want that to be an option? Bluebird <email@example.com> wrote: Tonight for the first time since I moved out, two of my children are spending the night with me. My ex has taken my older son camping with the Boy Scouts, and my daughter and younger son are both sleeping as I sit here typing, the bathroom light slightly augmenting the monitor's own light. My son is on the couch behind me; my daughter is in my bed. I will crawl in next to her in a few minutes. It is peaceful here, with both of them asleep. But the peace hasn't moved into my heart. I am in turmoil, bereft, adrift. I have lost all my anchors, and all my future hopes are shrouded in fog. I've lost my sense of direction, too, and that usually is unfailing. I can't even define what it is I've lost; I only know that I need it and I want it, and it's not here, not in this quiet apartment where the children sleep. Where is it? Is it in the phone call of a friend? The e-mails we all exchange? The little touches from other people that help to keep me as whole and sane as I am? They've all come in tonight, and still I'm restless, edgy. I have no one to dream of, no one to hope of loving. And that is hard, because it makes it damn near impossible to hope at all. It saps my sense of self-worth, makes me wonder if I imagined it when I thought I was getting well. I am here, I have my separation and my new home, and yet I still find myself saying "I hate my life". Will I ever be complete, just in myself? Or do I always have to derive my self-worth from the admiration of others? Twyla <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: It's very confusing living in a world where everybody has a brain. Nina <email@example.com> responded to a "doesn't anyone here care?" type of question with: Yes, it bothers me. It also bothers me when people have problems that I have no idea how to help with, or even what to say about. When people are miserable and looking for help and can't find it. It bothers me when people post here once, don't get the response they want, get pissed off and leave. It bothers me when people who don't know others in this place leap to conclusions without knowing the history. It bothers me when people use this place to mindlessly abuse others. It bothers me when people come here wanting and needing something they can't find. But the fact of the matter is that I cannot fix any of those problems. I can and do attempt to do what I can. I try to give support when I can and to be tolerant of others and to try not to take some of the stupidity too seriously. This is a public forum. This is an imperfect place. If you are looking for somewhere of absolute safety and support, this is not it. I wish that it was, but it isn't, and it never will be. Nonetheless, there are a lot of good things going on here. I can't give you the reassurance that you would need to feel absolutely safe here, which, I assume, is still what you're seeking in continuing to poke at this painful topic. No one can. You have to take the rough with the smooth here, and if that isn't acceptable, this may not be the place for you. I hope you can find what you're looking for, here or elsewhere. CallieSue <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: I can remember very clearly an incident that took place when I was not quite 7 years old. Remember as it had just happened although it's been a lifetime ago. I had just been placed in an orphanage by my grandparents after my mother had abandoned me (and my brother and sister) about six months before. The case worker at the orphanage was trying to have a meeting with me. She was explaining how she was going to find me a new home, but that she had to get to know me a little in order to find the right people for me. Next thing I knew I was sitting huddled in the chair, arms wrapped around my legs, face shoved into my knees, my sweater pulled up over my head, and me refusing to say a word or come out from under the sweater. The woman tried her best to get me to talk, but all she could get me to say was "no one can know me anymore". Finally I guess after she realized she was getting nowhere, she said I could go if I told her why. The answer she got was "When people know me they leave. So they can't know and maybe they will stay." To this day I still hide. No longer do I use the sweater to hide behind, but more with portraying what others want me to be or silence. Never do I show my inner self. That part of me died a long time ago when I was left one time too many. "Stuck in the 60s" responded to a troll-like comment with satire and said: Being depressed is no excuse for laziness. Alan Harding <Alan@harding.demon.co.uk> responded without satire and said: Lazy is when we act depressed for the sheer pleasure of it. Being depressed is when we can't scrape up the energy needed to be lazy. Lethe <Lethean@webtv.net> wrote: I hope this is clear to you now. If you hurt and your hurt is incomprehensible to someone else, then either it does not exist or it does exist but you are an idiot for feeling it. From now on before you have a feeling check with another person (a real smart one is best) to make sure that it is OK. Lethe <Lethean@webtv.net> wrote: I've noticed that many posts here consist of analyzing another post and then critisizing some aspect of that post, with the implication that life would be better for all if people didn't do that. Like I'm doing now.