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what has more psi a wolf or pit bull?

<< Back to: rec.pets.dogs: American Pit Bull Terriers Breed-FAQ, Part 2/3

Answer by pitbull_connor
Submitted on 2/1/2004
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Considering pit bulls were bred specifically for fighting and bear/bull baiting their bite exceeds a wolf bite by far. Wolves do not snap legs in half, they tear flesh from the bone. They also don't jump up and latch onto animals to bring them down. I pit bull latches itself onto a bull or bear as it's being tossed around like a rag doll. Releasing grip as they please. Ever seen a pit bull hang from a spring pole? They've been recorded as hanging for 30 minutes! A wolf has not been bred for jaw power either, they have no need for it. A pit bull has been bred for this feature. Psi is a hard thing to measure in a bite. Depends what, and why the animal is biting and the drive involved. No accurate tests have been performed.

Answer by babayaga
Submitted on 2/27/2004
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The wolf is widely reported to have a bite strength of up to 1,500 pounds per square inch (psi). Wolves can crush deer bones and can rip open the rump of a running moose, cutting through 4 inches of thick hair and tough hide. Dogs usually have a bite strength of around 450 psi. Jaw strength is reduced in the dog by a less acute angle around the zygomatic arch. The zygomatic arch is the "cheek" bone; an arch of bone on the side of the skull. This difference in angle is a typical difference between wolf or coyote and dog skulls. It allows for a larger, and therefore stronger, muscle in wolves and coyotes. However, the American Pit Bull Terrier/ American Staffordshire Terrier is sometimes reported to have equal jaw strength as wolves. What does a bite pressure in psi really mean? According to Bell Labs, humans can bite at about 150 psi, a rat at 7,000 psi. But this doesn�t mean that the rat is stronger than the human and could crush our bones. It merely shows how much pressure is applied relative to the area where the teeth make contact. It should be noted, that people are expecting the bite of a wolf or a Pit Bull to be especially strong and damaging and will therefore present data in this way.

Answer by John
Submitted on 3/21/2004
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It's not even close. Pit Bulls have much stronger jaws then wolves do. That's the way they are built. And a Hyena has stronger jaws than both of them. Wolves don't bite through elk's leg bones, they grab on, tear at, and hurt the animal and the pack swarms over them to take the elk down. Talk PSI all you want, the easiest way to tell who's stronger is in a fight. When wolves and Pits are rolled, Pits break free from the Wolf's hold, but the Wolf cannot break free of the Pit once the Pit gets ahold of them. That's why Pits win almost every fight they have with a wolf, even if the wolf is twice their size. It's simple: Fighting Dog versus Hunting Dog in a fight.......the fighting dog wins. Another thing, the Irish Wolfhound of today is NOT the dog that rid Ireland of wolves. The old Irish Wolfhound was a Coursehound that ran, tired and killed wolves in teams or at least pairs, not one on one. That dog is extinct, today's Wolfhound came from Great Danes and Borzoi's being crossed. They don't hunt Wolves at all now. If you want to see a dog that's actual job is to kill wolves, 1 on 1, and does so every time, look up a Causasian Owcharka on the internet.

Answer by joel
Submitted on 3/25/2004
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Ha ha, it sounds like people like talking about stuff that they know nothing about! Blurb83 gets a star and a half just to blow smoke- he has his information reversed! The pit bull has the stronger bight out of the wild wolf kingdom hands down. Just because your dog has the name wolf in it does not make him part of the wild wolf category. All dogs came from wolves adapting to mans needs and also bred by man to achieve certain results. The pit bull had been breed with a type of bulldog to get its great bite power and also bred with various terriers for its lightning like quickness. I found a great site on pit bulls it is BIGHTCLUB.com it has some good free movies on info for pit bull owners.

Answer by Neal Hall
Submitted on 3/25/2004
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First off, wolves are WILD animals. Its kind of silly any arguing this, but there wouldnt be a match. Wolves kill to survive, and some of the most fiercest animals on earth. Wolves kill each other on border disputes, as well have fights with bears, mountain lions, and wolverines, sometimes winning or losing. A single wolf against a single pit bull wouldnt be a match. The wolf would easily take it out. Wolves can also break moose or elk bones in a few bites. You guys should read up on wolves and watch some videos on them. Its kind of silly thinking pit bulls jaws are like a damn alligator or something, they are a Domestic DOG! I have even heard hideous stories about pits can beat a mountain lion or wolverine as well. whats next, they can beat a tiger.

Answer by youpeoplearestupid
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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ok i just read all of these comments about who has the stronger bite. First off like many people have already said there is NO WAY you can accurately measure bite strength. Secondly all you rednecks that think you pit bull is some kind of god is totally ridiculous!! I mean seriously you really can not compare a domesticated dog against a wild animal. Yes pits were bred to fight dogs, they were bred to fight other DOMESTICATED dogs....much like other pit bulls. The whole bull baiting thing in most cases es actually in all cases es it was more than one pit bull aginst a bull. And bear baiting almost always ended up with the dog or dogs being killed. As for wolves everyday there existence depends on killing and surviving. Do the math people and stop using your stupid one time stories about how your dogs killed another dog that looks like a wolf. Its ignorant! People like you who post comments on here and talk out your ass about what you think you know, it truly is pathetic. Here is an idea go read a book maybe even watch some educational television, talk to some who does not encourage dog fighting or comparing the two. Those are the people who are making dog breeds better and better everyday, and helping to preserve nature. And to all you stupid machos out there I hope your nasty inbred pit latches on to your genitals and does not let go.

Answer by Bill
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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"Remember me I'm a Doberman I used to be somebody"! I don't know what all the hoopla is about PBT,s anyway. My buddy and I raise AB's he has one about 130lb. One day we working our dogs catching wild bore. An acquaintance drives up with a large PBT in his truck, we warned him not to let him out of the truck, because we new he was dog aggressive. Well he did and my buddies AB grabbed that sucker by the head and ran off with him. Took thirty minutes to find them and make him turn it loose. Needless to say he doesn't bring his dog over anymore. You know, as sadistic as man kind is we have fought just about one of everything against something else. I wonder if there is any documented results from an actual pit fighting a wolf. I realize wolves are wild and depend on their killer instinct for survival. However, wolves are pack oriented animals, they almost never kill prey one on one, rabbits or small varmints being the exception to the rule. It's done as a group to avoid injury. Even if they fight one another it almost never results in mortal wounds to each other.

Answer by Blackfoot Indian in Idaho North
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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Great Spirit tells me here are answers, so no one need harm beasts to prove points. Alpha wolf leader of pack can defeat your pit bulls 4 out of 5 times because---wolf has learned over centuries how to feint to side to avoid grizzly swipe, or cougar swipe, wolf knows which direction to move before opponent comes. If the pit bulldog gets bite hold on wolf under throat, wolf fails, or on side of neck. Dog cannot bite back of wolf neck due to wolf stands taller---so, wolf goes for back of dog neck, dog dies. Wolf teeth are longer, penetrate deeper. Jaw power is likely not much different, except to say, wolf meant to crush bones, pit dog to hold a bite both take force. Wolf knows how to move to avoid elk hooves, wolf has training advantage of wilderness dog lacks. Authorities agree wolf is almost always more intelligent than domestic dog. Largest wolf on record was Lobo, King of Currumpaw, north New Mexico, 1893, 207 lbs known as the Giant Cattle Killer. No dog and no wolf can match a healthy cougar, and Indian Devil the wolverine make them all run away till he meets grizzly then he spray bear with musk worse than skunk, for this only reason bear will not fight wolverine.

Answer by Bill
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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In response to the to the Japanese Tosa comment. There is no comparison in the way these dogs are fought. It's like comparing apples and oranges. These fights are staged much as a Sumo wrestling match. No sanctioned Tosa-Ken fight is to the finish. The time limit is 30 minutes and typically the fights last no longer than ten minutes. Any barking or growling disqualifies the dog. The winning dog is not necessarily the one to attack more often or more viscously. Victory depends solely on the spirit of the fighter. If a dog has been dominated by the other dog for the entire duration of a fight, the winner still has yet to be decided. Failure in the fight is decided if the dog whines, groans, or gives up by attempting to run away from the other dog or due to sheer fatigue, is unable to get up again.

Answer by TOSA IS KING
Submitted on 4/9/2004
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[an error occurred while processing this directive] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Web posted Wednesday, October 7, 1998 Japan's Tosa fighting dogs go for the throat in canine sumo KATSURAHAMA, Japan (AP) -- The contenders were itching for a fight. They bolted up the path to the ring and snarled at each other with teeth bared. Then the bell rang -- and they lunged at each other's throats. This was no fight between ordinary heavyweights: It was a brawl in a cherished Japanese tradition, endorsed by no less than the emperor himself: dog fighting. At the center of the sport is the feared Tosa -- a dog so powerful that it is banned in some places. Animal lovers might balk at the violent tradition, but fans of the Tosa gush about its fighting prowess in terms usually reserved for thoroughbreds or fine wine. "A good dog is very special, maybe only one in a thousand," said Masaru Hirose, owner of the Tosa Fighting Dog Center in Katsurahama, 600 miles southwest of Tokyo. Dog fighting in Japan goes back to the 14th century, but Tosas were bred to their current form -- with vice-grip jaws, a powerful chest and a nasty temper -- in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The dogs are impressive. With a short brown coat, full jowls and a stout, muscled physique, the dogs can reach 200 pounds and a height of 26 inches. A champion can sell for tens of thousands of dollars. The rare canine is prized as strong, loyal guards by dog-lovers in the United States, and fans have formed the International Tosa-ken Association. But Tosas are also fighting machines. "Clearly, it is a dog for only very experienced dog-handlers," reads a description put out by WorldClassDogs Inc., adding that the breed is banned in Britain. "It is powerful, stoic and relentless." The Japanese government has tightly controlled the fighting tradition. Gambling is now banned, and Hirose'sdog center along the rocky south coast of Shikoku Island is the country's only licensed fighting center. Periodic title matches, however, can be held elsewhere, and Tosa owners are all over the country. Prized fighters are given the same titles as venerated sumo wrestlers, with top dogs given the "yokozuna," or grand champion ranking. In a match put on for reporters at Hirose'scenter, the dogs bolted across a bloodstained canvas and attacked each other at the throat, standing up on their hind legs. The dogs -- scarred on face and legs from earlier matches -- growled and salivated as they sank their teeth into the loose, almost elastic folds of fur around each other's necks. At title matches -- held at makeshift rings around the country -- more than 100 owners and trainers watch as top Tosas duke it out in bouts that can run as long as 30 minutes. A dog loses when it yelps or tries to flee. Judges declare winners and hand out rankings. Though dogs are often hurt, owners say they don't let the fights get out of hand. With good reason: Tosas are expensive to buy, keep and train. Officials at the dog center say they've never heard of a Tosa being killed in a match. But pulling apart the fiery canines can be difficult. At the end of the match at Hirose'scenter, two trainers leapt into the ring and grabbed the dogs by the tail as a third trainer jutted a flaming torch in their faces. The isolation of the sport's lone training center on Shikoku has kept it off the radar of Japan's tiny animal rights movement. "It's only held in a limited, regional area, and people -- especially young people -- don't really know about it," said Taki Hiramatsu, at Animal Refuge Kansai in Osaka. Despite the gambling ban, Tosa fighting can involve big money. Hirose'scenter displays an ornate dog house built for the 1989 visit of Emperor Akihito -- at the cost of $1 million. The center houses rows of gift shops and a museum and is a popular stop for sightseeing buses. Five-minute fights for tourists are held every day as long as at least 21 customers show up. Visitors are treated to the sight of a "yokozuna" fighter in full regalia, his body draped with elaborately quilted cloths and a thick white rope tied around his neck. The short brawl between two other dogs follows. The center apparently saves the best fighters for title bouts, however. At a recent match for tourists, one of the dogs barely fought back, despite high-pitched cheers from two children on tour with their mother. "It was OK," said Shinsuke Konno, 26, who drove six hours from Kyoto to see the coast and watch a match. "I thought the fight would be more violent." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Enter a search keyword or string. 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Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/11/2004
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What Bill has said is correct. However, the Tosa HAS faced the PB in the fighting pit. These encounters ARE NOT sanctioned, but that is beside the point. In every such match THAT I AM AWARE OF, the TOSA prevailed. Nevertheless, I still think that the PB is the most FEROCIOUS and TENACIOUS of the dog breeds. Given the large investment in owning and training the Tosa, they are not wasted on PB's because that's not where the big money is. Admittedly, we have strayed a bit far from the original question, "which has the greater P.S.I., the Wolf bite or the P.B. bite?" I guess that I began to lose interest after the first few responses, IE.: 1. "there is no accurate way to measure the P.S.I." vs. 2. "the P.S.I. of the wolf's bite is 1,500 lbs." Given the vast technology that exists today, it is difficult to believe that we cannot measure the p.s.i. of the bite of ANY animal that we wish to know about. It is apparent that there isn't sufficient interest to do so, however. One last thought: the p.s.i. of the bite does not translate into "who would prevail in a fight." I hike in the mountains, AND I CARRY A BIG GUN!

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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All of you PETA members/wolf lovers are so in tune with nature it's unbelievable. The closest you fags have been to the outdoors is the new rock climbing wall at your health club. For those of us who know the real deal (not those of you with the BMW and the Greenpeace Jacket) the wolf has NEVER (yes, I said NEVER) beaten a Pit Bull in any documented fight. The reason you will probably never see a fight between the two is because nobody is stupid enough to put a "cur" like a wolf in a fight with a game bred Pit Bull. Nobody except you, I guess. Then you would have another dead wolf to cry about. And for you Tosa lovers out there, dream on. Every once in a while the Tosa has won, but fights between the 2 are very rare nowadays, the Pits the Japanese use are usually not the best quality, and more often than not, the Pit still wins. Tosa's are too slow and tire too fast most of the time. A Tosa would, however, defeat/kill a wolf if the two ever fought. Many dog breeds were developed to protect flocks of domesticated animals from wolves (mastiff types and derivatives) and they did (and still do in Central Asia) actually kill wolves. These breeds, although tougher than a wolf, cannot defeat Pit Bulls in fights, so why do you think a wolf could? Hunting/killing and combat/fighting are very different abilities. Don't believe me, I don't expect you pocket protecting pseudo-nature freaks to understand. Just go rent Call of the Wild and watch what happens. And STOP talking about things you know nothing about.

Answer by Bjorn
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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I consider myself fortunate to have witnessed two wolf kills, one in Yellowstone national park where a single wolf took down a full grown elk all by it's lonesome.Northern Alberta thee wolves killed a bull moose, one wolf had hold of the face,for twenty minutes. this wolf held tight,being lifted off the ground and shook like a chew toy, never releasing it's grip until the moose was down.This was no dog holding onto a rope dangling from a tree.Wolves have what's called a flight or fight response,when in unfamiliar territory , and wolves are very territorial, they prefer flight or escape.So to put a wolf into a pit with a dog it's instinct is to escape not fight.Advantage probably to the dog.If you drop a pit bull into the territory of a wolf no contest the wolf will kill the dog.Instinct to protect it's territory makes the wolf a formidable fighter . Response to John you probably have never been ten feet into the wild your entire life. p.s. Jack London books are fiction.

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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Bjorn, cool name, do you tell the guys at the health club you're a viking? I don't care what you SAY you saw from your Minivan as you drove through Yellowstone, for a wolf to take down an adult elk by itself there was something wrong with the elk. BTW, watching Wild America videos doesn't count for what you've seen. And yes, wolves do hunt and kill moose, so what does that prove? Every animal, including us, you jackass, has a flight or fight response. That means nothing. So, here's what's important: fight them in a Pit and you get a dead wolf; have them fight in your back yard and you get a dead wolf; put a wolf over a dead moose and let a Pit go after it and you get a dead wolf. You get the theme, here? It's not even close, wolves are not built or bred for the purpose of fighting, they stand about as much of a chance as a german shepherd would, which is none. PS, the story maybe fiction, but the fight in the movie was not.

Answer by Neal Hall
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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This John guy has to be either a dumb teenager or and immature adult who doesnt know anything. First off, The Jack Landon film was a MOVIE, a damn movie man. if you base your facts on movies, you have a lot to learn in life kid. I lived in yellowstone national park for three months and while i was there, i studied and searched for wolves on my time off. I have seen a wild wolf run right in front of my car one time, one of the coolest things i have ever seen. There are a good amount of differences from wolves and dogs, and there is a saying that wildlife biologists use saying that a Wolf is NOT a Dog, but ALL dogs come from wolves. BJORN made a good post putting a wolf in a ring around a bunch of people would be worthless. Wolves have a natural fear of humans and are very skittish around humans. They say your very lucky to ever see a wild one. You should do some studying up on wolves before you make assumptions. They are books you can read on wolves killing animals and there is a record of a single, one legged alpha wolf killing a moose after 3 days of consistent attacks. That is damn amazing. moose are huge and are very lethal, and have been known to injure and even kill humans. but in all, i know the truth to this argument in which some of yall dummies think a domesticated dog is going to kill a predator of the wild. There is also another post somewhere where some people think a pit can kill a wolverine, FREAKING AMAZING PEOPLE. can they kill a gorilla, tiger, bear, etc. as well. cant wait for the answers on this.

Answer by Fred
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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I was watching the Discovery Channel the other night. It's the one where they have WHAT IF THESE TWO ANIMALS FOUGHT. That night it was WOLF vs. COUGAR. They measured bite strength by using the animal's skull and measuring the holes in the jaws where the muscle mass would be. Then after certain calculations, they got the bite strength. A full grown cougar had a bite strength of 300 pounds, whereas a full grown alpha male wolf had a bite strength of 500 pounds. But these animals usually charge at you when they bite, so they measured the bite with momentum. The wolf had I think 1400 pounds, and the cougar only 8-900 pounds. They mentioned that cougars are only deliver 80 pounds more of pressure than a human, so that would make us at 220 pounds.(I'm assuming this is in per square inch...not sure) I've read somewhere that pit bulls are rated at 190, whereas rots and dobermans (next highest) are rated at 90. Not sure on these facts though. I remember the wildlife vet saying that the wolf has so much more power than a pit bull or rot (which they later proved through bite strength tests). They made actual metal models of their head and jaw (with teeth), and gave each the appropriate jaw strength using a hydraulic system. They stuck a coconut in the jaw to resemble bone. They both broke through the coconut in one bite with ease, but the wolf model made a bigger impact than the cougar. They also weigh up to 150 pounds so force and momentum would play a role. The thing is wolves are carnivores. They survive by killing and feeding on animals that are sometimes bigger than they are. But they work as a pack. They also have bigger canines than pit bulls. So one bite to the neck would puncture deeper than a pit bull's would, meaning better chances of reaching the spinal cord. Well anyways, after gathering all the facts of both animals. (their bite strength, jaw size, body size, fighting style, etc.) They made a little computer animated model of what would happen if both met. The cougar killed the wolf with one bite to the neck after a little struggle and using its paws to pounce on the wolf. The cougar has longer canines than the wolf, that's why they mostly only need one bite to kill their prey. So I would say that a pit bull would have no chance against a wolf.

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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Neal, sorry you were homeless for three months, but couldn't you have found a dumpster to crawl in instead of polluting a national park with your presence? While we're bragging about where we all have lived, I spent a year living in Kyrgyzstan (get a map, it's not on your Greenpeace distro list) building an american military base. In this country they have wolves, lots of them. They use Caucasian Ovcharkas, (that's a dog) and a few other breeds to protect their flocks/herds and they do KILL wolves all the time. They've been doing this for centuries there. And that is in a wild setting, not a Pit. I've seen dead wolves with Ovcharkas standing over them. Very rarely is the dog the one who dies, and when that happens it is because the odds are not equal (whole pack versus only 1 or 2 guard dogs). Additionally, dog fighting is not only legal but part of the culture there. They match all different dogs there, and, without question, the Pit Bull is the King of fighting dogs. Even in Central Asia, where the Pit Bulls are not the best quality, and they are pitted against some breeds that weight nearly 100 pounds more, the Pit wins more often than not. I personally watched 20 matches. You can love your wolf all you want, when it comes to fighting they have NO chance. The Kyrghyz folks won't even fight the wolves they have because they just plain lose all the time. It is not sporting to them. You're right, the wolf wouldn't know how to act in a Pit, the fight wouldn't be fair. But, wolves get killed rather easily by Ovcharkas who are defending livestock, and Ovcharkas lose in fights with Pits. You do the math. Just because it's wild doesn't mean it can fight. It means it can hunt and kill in order to survive, but it doesn't make it's living killing other wolves; if it did then we could talk. Pits are built to fight, and that's it. Take any fastlane, catchweight (55-62 lb) APBT and put it in there with the biggest Alpha Male wild, moose killing wolf you can find, I don't care how many legs he has, and the fight would not last 10 minutes. The wolf, even outdoors and not in a Pit, would actually quit (if he wasn't dead yet) and try to get away well before 10 minutes, he would "cur", so to speak. A wolf could never deal with a Pits strength, speed, or tolerance to pain. I'm sure you've never seen a real Pit in action, just download a video from the internet, since that's where you get all your "personal" information anyway. And read the history about this breed before you judge, not just the newspaper clippings that have some Pit killing another kid or poodle. You nature-lovers don't know anything about dogs, even wild ones. I mean this is nothing new, man has been breeding/creating livestock guard dogs to protect their animals from wolves for hundreds of years. There are at least 10 different dog breeds that can kill a wolf. Try to think about this logically, if wolves were such great fighters, we'd be using them as fighting dogs instead of creating a breed that can do it better than all the others. You can hate these dogs all you want, I think it is stupid/dangerous to have them as Pets, irresponsible people are ruining the breed, but they are what they are: the finest fighting canine in the world, they will never quit, and, if conditioned properly, they will never stop. If you ever get the chance to actually see a working Pit (like a pig dog) on a hunt for hog or bear, you will finally understand what I'm talking about.

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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I live in Idaho North. Maybe you never hear of our tribe. We never hear of you either, and we missed out on nothing. Go to URL I left for Indian Devil. maybe he come out of monitor and take chunk of your leg. From "New Hunter's Encyclopedia" 1966, page 171 "The wolverine is one of the most dreaded animals in all North America. He not only strikes terror into the hearts of all the smaller creatures but even the moose is afraid of him. The bear and the mountain lion will give up a fresh kill to him, and even a pack of wolves have been known to give ground at his approach." "He is a compact bundle of steel-hard muscle wrapped in fur. Incredibly powerful for his size, he also possesses more cunning, more courage, more meanness, and more ferocity than any other animal in the wild. He fears nothing and shows no hesitation in attacking any other animal if the occasion warrants a fight. His teeth and long sharp claws are the instruments of his ABNORMAL STRENGTH. It is always a fight to the death, either for himself or his adversary, and a wolverine seldom loses." Disgusted has gone away, and is drifting out to sea............

Answer by Richard
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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The original topic was what animal bites harder, not what animal would win in a fight. So i will say this. The bite pressure of either animal has never been meassured with some kind of tool, but data collected from the skulls of the animals shows that the muscles witch are responsible for the power of the bite are nearly 3 times larger in a wolf than a pit bull. i read up there that somebody said a wolf has no need for a strong bite, but actually it does. you can't bring down a 1,700 pound moose with weak jaws. i have seen a wolf on a mooses thigh being kicked around like a rag doll and it never let go. and that was a 180 pound wolf at that. and i have also read in this topic that "wolves hunt in packs and they never fight." well yes they do hunt in packs but some wolves have been seen killing full grown moose by themselves, just like a pit bull would kill a bull. and wolves fight each other all the time. a wolf doesn't get to be alpha male by vote. he has to fight every other male in his pack to get that spot and then he has to defend against outsiders and upstarts trying to take his spot. also, either animal only needs as much jaw power as is needed to hold onto a large animal and not let go when being flung around. at 65 pounds, a pit need less power that a 150-190 pound wolf. i also read that somebody said "wolves get tired to easy" nothing could be further from the truth. the fact is that all canines have excellent endurance. it has been documented that a wolf can run almost full speed for 12 miles or more. almost all of their muscle mass is made of the deep red muscle made for power and endurance, as apposed to a cat witch is mostly the brighter pinkish fast twitch muscle that lets them sprint very fast but tire quickly. i would also like to address the issue of "lock jaw" a condition that pit bulls are known for. there is NO SUCH THING as lock jaw. it is true that a pit bull will not let go once it grabs something but that is due to it's "game" or courage and tenacity, not any mechanism in the muscle or bone structure of the dog. now i know most of you are just saying that i don't know what i am talking about and that i am a peta wolf lover, but i really do know and i am not a memeber of peta and i own a pit named cujo who i love like a son. i know he has strong jaws, i left him alone in the back yard with my spare tire and an hour later it was shreded all over my yard. but his head and jaws are less that half the size of an adult male wolfs head and jaws. it is like comparing a jack russel terrier's jaws to a pit bulls, there is no comparison. now as far as what animal would win in a fight, you have to concider a few things, was the pit bull trained by humans to fight or was it just a family dog that got loose up in the minisota country side? if the dog was bred for fighting then yes the animals would fight and the wolf would probably be suprised by the pits ferocity and just run away. but if the wolf happened to be in a bad mood or very hungry and wanting to eat the pit bull, well i hate to say it but if a wolf can kill a mule deer by biting it once on the back of the neck and crushing it's spine, then it would have no trouble killing a pit. no amount of "game" or resistance to pain will stop that. if the pit was lucky enough to get a neck bite then it stands a good chance but the wolf would be ready for that kind of thing from fighting other wolves it's whole life. i'dsay that between a wolf and a trained fighting pit, i give the odds to the wolf about 85%. if the pit wasn't trained as a fighter, i would raise the wolfs chances to 95%. and don't start with the "but you never seen this and you haven't seen that" because i have. my neighbor bred and fought pits for 4 years before i finally turned him in for trying to steal my dog to fight. i have seen hundreds of fights literally over the fence in my back yard. and i have seen wolves in action too. i regularly travel to minnisota to hunt with my grandfather and we have seen wolves fighting each other and hunting other animals. and the wolf is just plain bigger and stronger and a better fighter. and it's reflexes and speed in a battle is just as fast as a pit bull also. wolves have been evolving over millions of years to be hunters of large game and fighters for position in packs. pit bulls have been bred over a couple decades to kill bulls by clamping over the nose and suffocating it, not crushing it. a wolf also has bite power to crush large bones in a few bites to get at bone marrow witch comes in handy during the winter when prey is less plentifull. i am not a biologist by any means but i have been collecting information about animals my whole life from any source i can find and double checking those results to make sure there are no discrepincies in the information, so i really do know what i am talking about here. you can go on and keep thinking a pit will win in a fight if you want, but just know that a wolf bites much harder, and that is a fact.

Answer by rell_baby
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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Some co-workers and I were discussing Wolves and hyenas and their bite pressure which brought me to this post. I just so happened to come across a lot of info on bite pressure/force for Hyenas, wolves, pits and crocks. Here is what I found...with links. (I found similar info on several sites, but I just picked a couple to post here. I encourage doubters to research additional info themselves) http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/faq.asp#14 Wolves - about 1500psi http://www.edba.org.au/courier.html Pits - about 2000 psi Oh BTW, a Hyena puts out about twice the PSI as a pit and is the king of bite in the dog kingdom. And to let you know that all this means squat, a rat has about a 7000 psi bite. The debate is still open on weather a rat can defeat a wolf in a fight. Rell

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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Actually, psi has little to do with the overall bite. Strain gauges would be more accurate. If you use the strain gauge, the wolf's bite is at least five times greater than the pit bull. Discovery magazine said that the alligator has the most powerful bite. There is also a very big misconception here. Russian and Irish wolfhounds were bred to HELP CATCH wolves, not to defeat them in mutual combat. The dogs would annoy and detract the wolf while the hunter shot the wolf. I suspect that most of you don't hunt, or must be kids. Do you seriously think that a single dog was used to hunt down and kill a wolf? Most wolves travel in packs. A hunting dog does not KILL the animal .... it simply distracts the animal. This is how I kill bears. Did you think the hunting dog killed the bear? In Wisconsin, dogs used for hunting bear, coyotes, bobcat, and raccoons, are often the victim of wolves. Pets are often the victims of wolves, and this includes all types of dogs. For you arm chair types, there's some issues that every hunter must address. If you are looking for bear sign at a bait, you must make sure to also look for wolf tracks. You've got to know your own dog's tracks, so that you can distinguish it from any wolf tracks. They are similar, did you know? Sometimes a specific bait site is receiving sign. It must be discontinued until the wolves have left Wolves will and do kill guarding dogs, farmyard dogs and hunting dogs. Wolves often kill guarding dogs in wolf states, such as Wisconsin. Every farmer knows this. There are warnings for farmers and other people possessing dogs of all kinds: it seems that wolves kill dogs because they view them as predators, competing with them for food. Ever heard of depredation? The state pays people when the wolves kill their animals. In WI, it was about $158,000.00 As for people traveling abroad and seeing "wolves fighting dogs" ..... this is bull. Gamblers fight the animals mostly for profit. There isn't too much profit in fighting a wolf and a dog. They aren't evenly matched and the wolf easily wins. It's like the old lion vs tiger myth ... they fought them in Roman times and the lion always won. It wasn't much of a contest and people lost interest. They also fought them in the US, but again...the novelty wore off quickly. How many people would bet on a man fighting a lion with his bare hands? The pit bull is a tough dog. However, it's also used because it's relatively cheap compared to some other breeds, and it's also smaller and less costly to feed. If you have ever gone to a dog fight, the owners must always agree to the match before the fight.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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The sources that quote pit bulls with 2000 pound bites are not reliable sources. Come on. There are several correlations reflecting large bite force: an animal with a small mandibular inclination and gonial angle, and a large posterior face height in relation to the anterior face height. Bite force must be correlated to the number of occlusal contacts. Pit bulls lock on to each other's heads. An alligator would easily crush their skulls. These dogs will hang on, sometimes for 30 minutes or more. If their bites were so forceful, their skulls would crack. According to the discovery channel, dogs commonly have bite forces of about 175 pounds, and that's not even 1/20th that of an alligator. The University of Florida has measured bite force from a grant by the National Geographic society. The most "bite force" produced by a dog is about 200 pounds of CRUSH force. THis is not enough to damage industrial boot toes and so on ....

Answer by kiyiyah
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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I found this site whilst looking for information on heart worm. I grew up with wolves and have a pack of 14 Grey Wolves on 300 acres of fenced land. I have never seen, nor do I want to see a wolf fighting a pit bull. I find dog fighting as a "sport" extremely sick. Wolves do fight other packs but rarely kill in the process as survival of the pack is more important. They will in some circumstances kill other wolves if survival of the pack is at stake. They can and do crush big bones in a very short time, they do not just eat the flesh of an animal. Putting a pit bull against a wolf would be rather pointless so why not just try your arm in a pit bulls mouth then the other in a wolves mouth, that way you will know from personal experience and no animal will be harmed!!! The best source for wolf information is L David Mech, try a net search and ask him, he is probably the worlds foremost authority on wolves. Personally I would rather live with wolves than pit bulls, but neither are aggressive unless taught to be by man. The wolf hunts for survival and a pit bull can be as good a pet as any other dog if not made aggressive by the owners! I suggest you do some real unprejudiced research before making "positive" statements. kiyiyah@telefonica.net

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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Actually, wolves "commonly" kill predators that they believe are in competition. In WI alone, at least 40 or 50 dogs are proven to be killed by wolves. You don't have to fight them to know which one would win. In wolf states, there aren't any wolves being killed by dogs ... wolves commonly kill the dogs, however! Wolves are too dangerous for pets. If you have taken genetics, you learn that a wild animal eats when it's hungry. They will even eat their own when they are injured. Animal trainers train wild animals from birth. The wild animal thinks that the trainer is the alpha male and so he doesn't eat him. However, if you show any weakness whatsoever, the animal attacks. Coy Horn learned this first hand. The tiger for some reason realized Horn was not so strong. The tiger tested Horn's strength. Horn's response was a punch with the microphone to the nose. This is what all the trainers do when they are in trouble. At that point, the tiger realized horn was not so strong. Then, Horn became very terrified and realized he was about to be killed. He then did the worst thing he could do. He tripped and fell. Sick animals or old animals do this. The tiger went for the death bite and wrapped its teeth around Horn's neck, one set of fangs puncturing the neck and severing the vertebral artery. Medical experts said that Horn would immediately pass out and so � he didn�t say anything at that point, including �don�t hurt the tiger.� That was a lie by Zigfreid. They should have shot the tiger, but they didn�t. At any rate, all wild animals are this way. They might appear affectionate, but they are still wild. Dogs have, through many centuries, had the wild gene bred out �. Except some dogs are still aggressive. The predator must kill and eat just about every day. There�s no reason to get into a tough fight � so predators generally won�t fight an animal that can even inflict minor wounds. This is why those stupid stories of wolverines standing up to bears have some significance to people. The bear could easily kill the wolverine. However, it�s just not worth it to fight with it and suffer even minor injuries. Lions are a little different. Sometimes the male will fight very hard � not to eat, but just to fight. The pit bull is this way. They use these animals because they have heart and keep fighting until the owners pull them off. Dog fighting is still popular in some states, although it�s now illegal everywhere. Most dog fights end when the animal is obviously in trouble. The owners pry the two animals apart. The pit bull can be in a death lock and still be wagging its tail and � smiling. So, people think that they like to fight. I hunt, but it�s because I am a nature lover. The elk herd often gets so large that the elk starve to death. The herd must be thinned out. There must be a ten to one predator ratio. There are areas where the predator becomes too common or threatens people because they have lost their fear of people. It�s important to kill them. I also get my Christmas tree from the National Park. The lazy �green people� that don�t know anything about nature often complain that we are killing trees; however, we track through deep snow and high altitudes�cold weather �.and other hardships to save trees. The trees can grow so close together that entire hillsides die. The rangers mark the trees that can be taken. It�s the same with bear and lion and deer. When the predator ratio is right, they don�t issue hunting permits. I only do what the armchair people that say they love animals should be doing. I have never lost a dog to a wolf, but I fell a few years ago and lost a very expensive dog to an alligator � the locator indicated that the animal was in the swamp, but it moved and so the dog must have been eaten. I paid about $1200.00 for it as a pup, but it was worth twice that because it was trained. I also lost one that next year to a bear. If you use a hunting dog, you must run with the pack. Unfortunately, a companion had a bad fall and I had to stop the bleeding. The dog got too far ahead and by the time I had arrived, both dogs were dead. You�ve got time to get there � you can even let them get � of a mile ahead at times � but you can�t let them wait too long or they will eventually get nailed. One was an African hunting dog or mix (they are illegal in many areas). Unlike most predators, wild dogs will not eat prey they did not kill, no matter how fresh the carcass may be. The African hunting dog will also not eat prey they did not kill. They will find prey that other predators have killed and most predators return to their kills to eat. It makes them easier to hunt. African hunting dogs, at least in the wild state, do not return to a previous kill. I don�t know why. But it would make them hard to hunt. You can�t trap them easily. Although they hunt larger prey in a pack, and they can run at 48km/h for six or seven km. This will run down any animal I have seen. They pack in nature and run in packs of 20 or more � in the old days, sometimes, there were a few hundred of them. They could kill anything with this number �.just about. Also, dogs are not genetically competitive. Neither are humans for that matter. A lion can run about 36mph � if one can run this speed, just about all can run it. Nature makes them almost equal in strength and speed. It�s because of natural selection � humans have a great diversity because they don�t have to compete to live � some are fat and slow and ugly. They live on, but if they were a lion, they would be dead. Dogs also don�t have to compete to live. There are all kinds and even fat greyhounds. Many would not make it in the wild. It�s silly to compare a domestic dog with a wild animal such as a wolf.

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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HOW COME Detroit has SO MANY pit bulls seems like they want hyenas instead due to ANCESTRY Pit Bull fellow with such ancestry boast to me about hyenas chase lions off. Yes---9 to 1 and up. Nature show feature film of lion called "he who greets with fire" killing hyena, breaking its back by clubbing it with its front legs. Look at a stuffed cougar if chance takes place. You will be amazed at thickness of its legs. Same thing on shorter wolverine. Creatures with strong legs dominate. Such as, the pro boxer has reputation for toughness. But, matched in anything goes against Olympic lifter, the non-fighter knocks hell and blazes out of MUCH WEAKER opponent. Wrestler also kick boxer's rear end, due to greater strength. Wolf have more size than pit dog, with such goes more strength. Like my cousins work General Custer over.

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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what is going on here? really! could it be that we all have too much time on our hands? what about this absurdity? could a komodo dragon eat a pit bull and a wolf simultaneously? no self-respecting native american would ever refer to himself as an "indian". almost everyone understands that "indians" are from india. "me think old man drink too much firewater." sounds like something out of an old roy rogers movie. native americans today own and operate casinos and have degrees. put that in your peacepipe and take a drag. the poor chap who posed the original question concerning psi of bites has probably died of old age by now, but if he hasn't, he now at least knows that he asked the wrong question in the first place. the next thing that we will probably see in this chatroom is some guy's receipt for baking cookies made out of wolf's tongue. i think that it's time that we all take a good look at ourselves using this website as our mirror. and this applies especially to me. frankly dude, i'm embarrassed!

Answer by OKAY Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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skeptic you are out to split hairs we all know Columbus was trying to get somewhere else, he got here instead then we were plastered with word "Indians" and we know about India too we are so tired of being called Indians that we gave up on making beliefs right it's almost a case of, everyone is in the wrong, so everyone is in the right skeptic, I suggest you should not believe anything, including your face in the mirror you are offensive giving RACIAL STEREOTYPE about "firewater" and peacepipes; you know nothing as to my age, I am 36, hold degree from University of Montana. whiskey was worked on Native Americans by you white settlers to ruin us, so you could kill all our fur animals, and grab our gold lands, and destroy the buffalo

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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Come on! This has nothing to do with the topic and for those that don't like the topic, find another forum! You might be bored with your life and you keep telling everyone, but I don't have this problem, dude! Dogs with longer legs have better visibility and have this advantage when hunting ... obviously, the longer legs are not an advantage in a fight necessarily, but aid the dog in finding prey for the hunter. A Russian familiar with wolves once said, ""If dogs are attacking and tearing at you, fight against the dogs, but do not call a wolf for help. Because when the wolves come, they will destroy the dogs, but they will also tear you apart." Solzhenitsyn In Alaska, there are so many wolves that they must hunt and kill them. I have never hunted wolves, but I have known people that have hunted wolves in Alaska. The problem today is that we have a very stupid press. They will hear something or read something and they don't understand what it means. A lion can kill an animal with a swipe of its paw. When it chases prey, it will knock an animal the size of a horse down by swiping it with its paw. Yet the press will report that pit bulls were used to fight lions and bears...as though it was a match. It wasn't. In fact, unless you cut tendons on the wild animal, the dog would be killed the first time the lion hit it with its paw. Polar bears can kill 600 pound animals much tougher than a pit bull with a single swipe. Even women have fought off pit bulls and killed them with a broom or by kicking them. In the several hundred years of the Roman days when people were fed to lions, no man succeeded in killing a lion with his bare hands or even with a stick. It's almost impossible even with a group. That's why killing a lion is such a big deal. If you take comparative anatomy, you will find that a human can only be about 1/10th as strong as a gorilla of the same weight. Most "fighting dogs" have some advantages ... the pit has loose skin so that they are harder to bite ... but not for a large animal. They are strong and muscular and can pull weight, but of course their low stance is a disadvantage to pulling in snow. They are unlike predators that kill for their living ... they will fight until they die, and few predators will do this. To a predator, it's just a job. They will only take "easy" prey and most animals are easy for a lion; however, a lion cannot kill a healthy elephant. Pit bulls are domestic dogs. They couldn't kill me, not even two of them. I wouldn't want to fight two lions or even one ... and in Alaska, the only wolf reported killed by a dog was a very young pup. Pit bull owners are typically cowards and pansies. They own the animal because they are weak. They expect the animal to do their fighting and they exaggerate the animal's power. The press is often stupid and interpret the world in strange ways .. they read about dogs hunting and think that the dog kills the hunter's prey. My worst fear is that I won't be there in time to save the dog. MOST hunters know to avoid hunting where they see wolf tracks because the wolf will go for the dog and kill it. To bad the press doesn't understand this concept.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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According to the Center for Disease Control: "Statistics Only about 12 people die each year in the U.S. from dog bites. And making it even worse is the fact that 70% of the fatalities are youngsters (newborns to age 5). But overall, 12 deaths a year is a reassuringly small number. In fact, "fatal bites are just 0.00001% of all dog bites annually." American pit bull terriers, American Staffordshire bull terriers, Rottweilers or any other breed of dog determined by the Department of Health to exhibit particularly powerful jaws, aggressiveness, and the ability to withstand infliction of pain to a degree that makes such breed particularly dangerous." "In the US, from 1979 - 1988, 70% of dog bite deaths were to children < 10 years (Sacks et al, 1989) and, in 1995 � 1996, 80% were children. The highest rate in 1995 � 1996 was for infants < 3 months of age. Among the 11 Australian deaths reported between 1979 and 1996, 36% were children aged < 5 years, 36% were aged 70 years and over and the remaining cases were aged between 35 and 69 years. Newspaper reports suggest that a further 2 cases occurred in Australia in the 1986 to 1996 period, which were not recorded as dog bite in the official death figures (Milburn et al, 1997). Anyway, the four pit bulls in Colorado seemed to run from yard to yard looking for victims to bite and they did bite others; however, they found an older woman to kill ... her son was an adult. I can't imagine them bringing a Moose down or even a large man with a stick. They are just little dogs, after all, and they don't have claws or long teeth. Their true strength is tenacity. But they are just domestic dogs. Get over this hero worship, dudes.

Answer by matt_p11
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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Some people seem to elevate Pit bulls to some type of mythical status. Yes, they are tough dogs, but world beaters? In a fight its tough to generalize though. I have a 2 year old, 60lb female pit. She is extremely strong for her size. Her athleticism impresses me. My 5ft fence does not keep her in my yard. However, my 8yr old male German Shepard can still kick her butt any time he wants. I would say he is not an average though Shepherd though. He has been in fights with several Rottweiler'slarger then he is and pinned them on the ground. His conditioning and athleticism used to be incredible. I've had him running for 6 hours while I was mountain biking. He grew up with a Rottweiler(they brought down a deer together) so he was used to dealing with a strong bulky dog. In the end, he has decent gene's much more conditioning that the average pet that gets walked every day(though I think many dont get walked). He still thinks he is tough, though he has had his better days. Hips are good, but shoulder isn't so good. Before people get bent out of shape, I am sure there are plenty of Pit Bulls that could have kicked his butt. I am sure there are Pit Bulls that have beaten wolves and lost to wolves. Also, not all wolves are equal. I believe many of these 3rd world wolf storys were using some thin, cage kept ~75lb variety. In an open field I would give a large Gray Alpha male the benefit of doubt over a PitBull. There are plenty of smaller wolf breeds around the world that would be easier for a PitBull. http://www.stormpages.com/shadowwolf/species.html In the end its pointless. Modern dogs are probably much weaker that the Mastifs used in Gladiator times or times older. In addition, the really big wolf species are no longer around either. Also ----> re: Try to think about this logically, if >wolves were such great fighters, we'd be >using them as fighting dogs instead of >creating a breed that can do it better than >all the others. Logic does not work. People fight chickens too! Can a fighting chicken beat a wolf?. PitBulls are very tough for their size, portable, cheap, capable of being handled by humans, and most important....."Game".

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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This is just silly. Some of you guys are just blind. Also, some of those facts about pits and wolves having 2000 and 1500 psi jaw strength is not true. Pit bulls do NOT have 2000 psi, nor 1500 psi, we dont even know what wolves are, but we know it is stronger and its estimated from the discovery channel episode that it is around 1900 psi. Wolves fight pretty often in the wild, and many wolves are killed by other packs. Do me a favor people, go to www.forwolves.org and go to ralphs page and look up instances of wolves killing other wolves. or just ask ralph there, who has helped with the reintroduction to wolves into yellowstone. send him an email and let him post it on his official website in which many books and articles refer to his website for info. Its just amazing to me that some of you think pit bulls are unbeatable. its insane. I have a book that i am looking at right now where a man who helped rid wolves back in 1920's said he would use at least 10 dogs to chase one wolf towards him where he would then club or shoot it. He said he was always worried about if he was going to lose a dog. he said in one chase, that one of his dogs started to nip at the running wolf and the wolf just reached around and bit it on its shoulder and ripped one of its ribs out, then had a tussle with another dog while being chased and literally crushed its skull, obviously killing the dog. Wolves are known to be some of the fiercest and most territorial animals. Go do some research on wolves, read books, ask wildlife or wolf biologists who work with these animals in the wild and they will just laugh at you. its a stupid comparison. As people who have guard dogs around their ranches to help protect from wolves, coyotes, and bears and ask if a pit bull, rott, mastiff could beat a single wolf. They will tell you simply, the wolf will tear it too pieces. In that same book, the book said that when hunters did chase a wolf with dogs, the only time the dogs killed a SINGLE wolf was there were at least around TEN large mastiff dogs.. now you will say i told you so, mastiff kind of dogs can kill a wolf, well they can if they are 10 of them. just go to forwolves.org and and ask the editor there. and tell him to post it on his website.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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haha! Listen, for the dudes that think a pit bull is the match for a wolf, I suggest you call the state police in WI or AK. Wolves kill dogs regularly, there are no records of a dog killing a wolf. Other fallacies that were mentioned here from people that use any trash site they find ... such as the one about the jaws being different from other dogs.. * "MYTH: The jaws of "Pit Bull" breeds are unique in that they can exert 2000 pounds P.S.I. when biting, and the jaws lock, creating a tendency to tear flesh, which results in grotesque injuries to human victims. All dog jaws work in the same manner. There is nothing unique to the jaws of the "Pit Bull" breeds that cause them to lock. Their jaws are large and powerful, as are the jaws of many other large breeds. Likewise, all dog bites tear flesh in exactly the same manner regardless of the breed of the dog. The extent of the injuries is based solely on the size and strength of the dog involved. This particular "myth" originated in a Ripley's Believe It Or Not cartoon. There is no scientific evidence anywhere to back it up. " Cindy Cooke, V.P, UKC

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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Table A1. Total Wolf Depredation on Pets and Livestock Dogs killed 27 1* $41,000.00 Dogs Injured 9 1* $1,305.16 The pit bull is not really even competition for the wolf. The pit bull was not the "toughest dog" He was a downsized animal that was cheaper to feed. He was chosen shortly after fighting was outlawed in England toward the end of the 19th century. Butchers also wanted a dog that could do its work but not eat as much. The pit bull was a good choice. Shakespeare referred to Mastiffs as "the dogs of war," and Henry VIII is known to have given King Charles V of Spain several hundred Mastiffs to use as fighting dogs on the battlefield. Trained fighting mastiffs were also used by the ancient Celts, by Kubla Khan, and by Hannibal when he crossed the Alps. Even as recently as the two World Wars, Mastiffs were used to pull munitions carts on the fronts. Pit bulls are not used as military dogs. Rots or dobbermans have this chore. Also, I can tell that no one here knows anything about real dog fighting. The trait of the pit bull to "hang on" is no advantage at all. In a fight, by both "English" and common "Cajun" rules, the bogs must be broken up if they "fang" or remain locked too long. That's not fighting. The dogs are first washed in the ring. They are dried and wrapped in towels for a time. A cat is often thrown to each of them to get them "ready" and the cat lasts about five seconds. If the dogs become "fanged" they are separated with a "breaking stick" If the dog turns away from the other dog, he is often scratched....he is placed on the other side of a line and when the ref says "let go" the dog must cross that line and make contact with the other dog. If he doesn't ... he loses....or if he jumps out of the pit (it's about 12-14 feet across)..otherwise, the live dog is the winner. If the dogs are latched for two minutes, they are separated, the handlers can pick them up "free of holds" They must be "free of holds" before being picked up...if they are not "free of holds" when picked up, they must be placed upon the ground and separated. They are easily handled by men...if the dog should bite one of the men in the ring (there are three of them), he is barred forever from fights and must be "culled." In NYC last year, almost a thousand pit bulls were taken because they were used for fighting; however, many of these guys are drug dealers and not dog geniuses...so, these animals are often not bred properly and will attack people. LA has the same problem. In the old days, mastiffs were used to actually kill soldiers on horses and with swords. I can't imagine a pit bull doing that. Most dogs only fight briefly, a matter of seconds. They quickly decide the prime male and stop fighting. The pit bull keeps going. Most matches don't end in death, contrary to popular opinion. They also have lots of fights in WY and of course in Cajun country. The pit is a dog ... no more. He would not stand a chance against a wolf.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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skeptic---bug off I don't have any use for your approach whites aren't bad simply for being white if you want to get even for slavery, ask the black professor in Brooklyn who he thinks is guilty to the subject here---pit owners overrate their animals and underrate wolves you know your dogs, but you know not the wolf because you have spent no time near him we also have smaller animal than wolverine can kill any of your dogs---porcupine Animal Planet showed this morning film of porcupine harassed by lions but lions quit after too many stab wounds keep pushing matters with your dogs maybe Great Spirit will turn wolf tail into wasp stinger and he murder your dogs more easily that works for those who believe evolution fables serious researchers can give closely matched bones to big wolf and to big pit bull to see which snaps bone first our confidence is in the wolf since he's in the bone snapping business elk and moose thigh bones much stronger than human bones and again the smaller wolverine snaps the bones faster than the wolf

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/19/2004
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Talking about a wolverine, have any of you seen "Brotherhood of the Wolf?" It's a great movie, based very closely upon historical events. Many believe the BEAST was a martin or some form such as a wolverine. It looked like a wolf, sort of ... but had short legs and was long...as big as a cow, they said. It would typically attack during the day and would crush the skulls of its victims, sometimes dropping from the trees. It always ate the liver, for the most part ... and sometimes just drank the blood. In the movie the hero made a fake one for the king...this is because when they finally shot the animal, it was displayed in the Paris Museum of Natural History until the early 1900's and then destroyed ... the French said that all the hair had fallen out. This surprised people because this monster was one of the most famous tales from France. The rumor started that the stuffed animal had been faked. It was also resistant to guns, but many believe that the animal moved so fast that hunters just missed it. The Beast caused economic ruin because everyone was afraid to tend their animals or go into the field. Thousands starved and it threatened the monarchy itself. The king sent many men to kill the beast; however, I doubt if these guys knew Kung Fu and the movie had some cultural problems. Anyway, the animal was about eight or ten feet long (body only) and had a tail that was about as long. It was about 3 feet high. It was described as having a long mouth with huge teeth. It acted like a wolf ... it did not return to the kill and would not eat bait that was dead. As a hunter, I know how much more difficult it is to trap this kind of game. At any rate, it was not a pit bull. There are cave drawings of France once even having lions and other animals .... it's possible a nobleman brought back a mean animal with him from Africa too and let it loose on the people. The movie had its own idea about how the beast evaded bullets.

Answer by drutigerman
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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this is sad.. all the wanna be experts, here... in a one on one fight, the pit would probably beat a wolf..in a kill to survive type of situation the wolf would fare much better than the pit.. i actually work with both pits and exotic animals.. have you ever seen a wolf fight? 2 wolves going at it? more biting and slashing instead of holding and shaking.. because most fights between wolves are more of a dominance show than anything.. then you have Territorial disputes which many times leads to the death of the trespassing wolf.. but the death is usually caused by several wolves if not the majority of the pack.. wolves are not very good one on one fighters.. sorry but it is true... also many people on here are laughable, like the person claiming pits were not the fighting dog of choice until the 70's.. they said that before that dobermans were the dog of choice.. all i have to say is, you need to come back from fantasy land..read this carefully... DOBERMANS WERE NEVER A CHOICE FIGHTING DOG.. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PIT BULLS AND OTHER RELATED BREEDS.. geez... also to the tosa fan out there.. have you ever been to japan? my guess is no.. i say that because the majority of dog fighters in japan have switched to pit bull due to the fact that they were beating tosas in almost every match.. did you not hear about the $1,000,000 fight? about 10 years ago? tosa vs pit.. pit killed the tosa.. since then the shift has been towards pits... and to the american bulldog fan.. they have been tried to with some(but not much) success.. the pit usually wins against them to.. however many people have been crossing pits and american bull dogs, as well as recently trying out bandogges (bandogs) lately with a little success..it sounds like there are too many armchair experts and fish stories on here...i think dogfighting is a STUPID and childish sport.. but facts are facts. and there are very few facts on this board.. a few facts i have read here concern the the fact that there is no accurate way to test PSI on dog breeds, and the info about skull and muscle shape.. the rest was mostly bs...

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Haha! Dude, think about what you are saying? You aparently haven't read ANYTHING on this page! Don't learn much, do you? " wolves are not very good one on one fighters.. sorry but it is true... " The fact is that there have been no cases in the past year in which an encounter with a wolf by a dog resulted in the wolf being killed by the dog. Oh, I forgot...you work with both animals, right? Yea, yea. A self admitted expert. You can call the numbers in AK and WI. They pay for the pets that are killed by wolves...typically, "wolfkill" with dogs is one on one. They don't have to "pack" They only "pack" kill for large prey. They don't need it for a dog. MN has about 3,000 wolves and the state also has a problem with wolves killing dogs. MN has 350 packs, but there are many "lone" wolves that are looking for a mate or just "lone." Most of the man killers were "lone" wolves, although wolves rarely attack men. Many wolves also travel in pairs (mates). You know very little about dog fighting. The pit bull was a "come lately dog" and was bred to be smaller than the fighters. There is NO DOUBT about this. Not many people fight dogs, compared to say ... playing football. So, the ones that talk about it don't know anything about fighting. If they did, they would draw attention to themselves and get arrested. So, you have pit bull owners on the Internet telling everyone that pit bulls are tough. Haha! Yea, tough against small dogs and also tough against infants and older women ... give me a break with the tough pit bull stuff. Wolves typically eat about 20 deer a piece and only kill about every two to four days. Heard the expression, "Ravenous as a wolf?" A wolf can go three weeks without eating anything and still be healthy. The ones that come close to man and their dogs are almost always "lone" wolves. They concern the population, because if they will kill a dog, they might also harm a human. In this century, all wolves that have attacked humans and killed them were sick or very old. I don't know of any healthy pit bulls that have been able to kill a healthy male adult, do you? MN doesn't seem to report the number of dogs killed, but there are about 150 animals a year owned by farmers that are killed. There's a lot of talk about "fighting pit bulls" but generally, their fights don't result in death. The number one cause of wolf mortality is fighting other wolves in the pack. The second cause is fighting wolves in other packs. They fight and fight to the death in many cases .....

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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i am the guy who said the thing about the Doberman, and you wanna know where i received that so called 'fantasy information', it came from a book about pit bulls and how there are trained, myths about pit bulls, etc. and was a very large and in depth book about pit bulls on sale at Barnes and Noble. so it seems like one of us brought the facts my friend, you are giving opinion just like everyone else. you are right about one thing man, a lot of wolf fights are just shows of dominance and involve biting and slashing, but not nearly all of them. I have on video from Bob Landis who is a cinematogropher(spelling) in Yellowstone that has footage of wolves fighing where your so called shaking and holding. you can also read up on how people have seen wolves fighting and how they go about. like i have said, go to some websites such as www.forwolves.org, send the guy there a email and ask him the question about this, and he will answer it to the best of his knowledge. also you can read up on wolves there, and look at past instances of wolves killing each other and fighting involved As for the guy about in Wisconsin where the two pit bulls and wolves had a fight, i dont believe it. for one thing,, one pit bull cant beat one wolf, and definetely two pit bulls can beat up 7 wolves, they cant even beat up 7 german shepards for that matter. also, if the police and DNA took a record of it, you could find it and read up on it. we cant seem to do that.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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haha, byme says "searching the area they found two dead wolves and one severely injured and killed later.i know for a FACT the police and D.N.R. were notified. both his dogs are both alive and well today." That's NOT a fact. Dude, they publish the stats on wolf deaths. You are simply lying, "by me" Give me the number to the agency that reimburses people when wolves kill their animals in that state. As for the pit bull dominating fighting in Japan, that's also a lie. The pit bull loses nine of ten matches and generally, the owner of a pit bull would not even fight his dog against a Tosa, except for "audience" Only a moron would vote for the smaller pit bull. Here's an article from a magazine that is not trying to sell pit bulls: FIGHTING DOGS AND THE WORLD'S TOUGHEST BREED OF DOG MIXED MATCHED DOG FIGHTS. WHICH IS THE TOUGHEST BREED? by Mr. Jan Libourel, Editor of HANDGUNS MAGAZINE and Editor of TOSA Newsletter In issue #17 of FILATALK MAGAZINE, the claim appeared that the most deadly fighting dog in the world was a 30 pound Pit Bull Terrier. It was also stated that smaller Pit Bull dogs can get underneath a larger opponent and rip out its throat in short order. The claim was made that such a dog could kill "even the most powerful Fila". Right: Gabriel, a Fila Brasileiro at 215 lbs owned by Shoo-its Mountain Filas This seems most improbable. ��.. Moreover, the smaller Pits Bull are usually the gamest and the most talented. Thus, one of these little dogs can often defeat a substantially larger dog, especially if the other dog is not a Pit Bull. However, it should be noted that serious dog fighters are very careful to closely match weights in the most intensely contested matches. A difference of only a few pounds can count a lot in a dog fight. Moreover, the claim that a smaller dog has a great advantage by being able to get to the throat more readily becomes very silly on close examination. (Editors Tosa on right) By that logic, a Jack Russell Terrier should be able to defeat the small Pit Bull, and a Chihuahua should be able to kill the Jack Russell, thus establishing the Chihuahua as the most formidable dog of all! In point of fact, if a 30 pound Pit Bull went against a huge Fila like Gabriel, Jetson, Chaka, or Reno, the larger dog would crush the life out of the smaller dog long before the superior gameness or athletic ability of the Pit Bull came into play. Assuming the small Pit Bull did get a throat hold, it would most likely get nothing more than a mouthful of dewlap. Mixed matches between Pit Bulls and Tosas have produced �� In Japan, the Tosas defeat the Pit Bulls about 90 percent of the time��. Most Tosa breeders will have a story about how a dog from their bloodlines has killed or maimed a Pit Bull. It should be pointed out that there is a good deal of variation in the size and quality among both Tosas and Pit Bulls, the latter breed having suffered from the scourge of puppy mill breeding. In the case of a 140 pound Tosa of the finest East Japan fighting bloodlines against a 40 pound Pit Bull of indifferent breeding, I would have little doubt about the outcome. ��.. As a matter of interest, several years ago a correspondent to the old Bulldog Review Magazine . ��. One prominent Tosa breeder reported seeing four mixed matches in Hungary. In the second bout, a smallish, young female Tosa fought to a draw with a male Pit Bull that was nearly as large as herself. In the other two bouts, the Tosas decisively defeated the Pit Bulls. In one of these contests, the Pit Bull was seriously mangled, loosing an eye in the fight. In both fights, the Tosas became more dominant as the fight progressed. Evidently, the Pit Bulls had tired from wrestling with the larger dogs. The same breeder mentioned having seen two spontaneous, accidental fights between Tosa's and Fila's at American dog shows. In both cases the Tosas very much dominated the action while it lasted. Proceeding to some of the other mastiff type breeds, the American Bulldog varies considerably in size and temperament. They seem to be capable of fighting ferociously and capable for a short period of time and then losing interest quickly. My informant tells me of a mixed match which an American Bulldog punished an Argentine Dogo non stop for about 15 minutes and then quit when the Dogo finally fought back. I have also heard of a mixed match between a Tosa and an American Bulldog in which the Bulldog quickly jumped out of the ring to avoid further punishment. The Argentine Dogo was developed primarily as a hunting /pack dog. It does have some fighting breeds in its make up and can give a good account of itself in a scrap, but not on the same level as level as the "real fighting dogs". The Presa Canario has its origins as a fighting dog. Today, it is largely a reconstructed breed, with heavy infusions of English Mastiff and American Staffordshire Terrier. As a fighter, it is reported to be similar to the American Bulldog - furiously aggressive for the first few minutes of the fight but lacking in gameness and staying power. The Dogue de Bordeaux has not been used as a fighting dog for about a century. In a mixed match with the Tosa witnessed by my principle informant, the two dogs collided in the middle of the ring and the Tosa knocked the Dogue de Bordeaux cold. The Cane Corso looks like a fighting dog, but really isn�t. In functions, it is more akin to the Fila; being primarily an estate guardian and protector of livestock. Also like Fila, it is a good pack dog. One of the leading Cane breeders tells me that he has as many as seven male Canes playing together peaceably. The Fila should not be considered a fighting dog. It was never bred for that purpose. It should be pointed out that the specialized fighting dogs are often of limited utility for much else. Many, if not most, Pit Bulls are too friendly to make effective property protectors, and many of them are stolen themselves. A fair percentage of highly bred game Pit Bulls from the best fighting bloodlines are quite man-shy, and the same seems to be true with of Tosas, quite frequently, Other Pit Bulls and Tosas are very "waggy" in fact, for people whose primary interest in a dog is personal protection, I usually recommend the Fila over the Tosa, even though I dearly love my Tosa and am very partial to the latter breed. Sincerely Jan Liborel , Editor Handguns Magazine

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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One aspect of some cultures that has always taken time to adjust ... is the lying and exaggerating. For example ... most people haven't even been to a dog fight, and yet they will tell you how cruel the dog fight is...how the animals die and so on. The fact is that the dogs RARELY did in the dog fight. They generally aren't even severely injured, and this was true of the pit bull, an animal that became popular because of tenacity and being cheap to feed. Someone also commented here that the Pit Bull had taken over fighting in Japan. LIAR !! You have only to go to the dog fighting homepage and you can see...ALL the dogs in the finals are Tosa!!! They average about three times the weight of the pit. All Yokuzuna are Tosa!!! Typical Size Tosas for Traditional Fighting These are photographs of the type of Tosa Inu that is used for fighting. You will notice that they have medium sized bones, they have different skin color and have varying head sizes. These photographs were taken at the best tournament en the city of Kochi, Japan on September 2003 by Mr. Perozo. There were over 500 matches in this tournament.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Tosa Fighting Dog Center in Katsurahama on Shikoku Island 600 miles SW of Tokyo is the only center that has legal dog fighting in Japan now. The pit bull is not used to fight the Tosa � they get up to twice the weight of the pit bull. The exception is championship matches that must be earned by winning at Katsurhama. Last year, there were NO pit bulls in the Master�s. The match ends when the dog tries to flee. Contrary to the people here that have no idea about dog fighting, the American match was over then too �. Whenever any dog tries to flee or even TURNS � they must �scratch.� If they don�t scratch, the match is over. Just like that. The dogs sometimes have to be broken up, but they typically don�t use � break sticks� and pencils�they use flames. The Dog center cost more MILLIONS to build. One dog house, built for the emperor�s dogs, cost more than a million dollars. This is I contrast to the barns, backyards, and warehouses where American dogs are fought. The top dog has the honor of �Yokozuna.� The Tosa also cost about 70 dollars more a month to feed than the pit. The Tosa is becoming rare in Japan because it�s so expensive to feed. Many large breeds are that way�.they begin to disappear because of the cost to feed them. That�s mainly why many large breed disappear and that�s the reason for the down sized pit. Presa Canary dogs were used to kill pit bulls when the pit bull population was a problem on an island�the Presa is not used in fighting because it�s to expensive to maintain

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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I don't have to be a profit to know that you are a liar. Wolves are protected under federal law. Whenever a wolf dies, it must be recorded, both the manner of death, location, and so on. I know that no pit bull has killed a wolf. Now, the only reason the dog deaths are recorded in regard to wolves is because there are depredation laws that require compensation and a record of this. I am the one that should be angry. I don't like people that lie in order to support their position. Maybe you are used to lying to people that aren't familiar with hunting or federal laws protecting game. It doesn't excuse lying. That's the problem. There are people out there that don't even own pit bulls and only know what they hear in the toilet .. that educate others about pit bulls. It seems that many pit bull owners are low lifes with little education and many are poor. They exaggerate about their dogs and people believe it. I watched the discovery channel tonight. They said that the wolf had four times the bite of any dog.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Drutigerman, more lies ... you can't tell such a big lie without people knowing you are a liar!!! Drutigerman says, "have you ever been to japan? my guess is no.. i say that because the majority of dog fighters in japan have switched to pit bull due to the fact that they were beating tosas in almost every match.. did you not hear about the $1,000,000 fight? about 10 years ago? tosa vs pit.. pit killed the tosa.. since then the shift has been towards pits... " I don't know if you have been to Japan or not ... but I do know that either you are a complete liar or you have never seen a dog fight in Japan..which also makes you a liar. ALL the champion dogs in Japan are Tosa. In 500 matches, non of the victors were pit bull. The dog fighting center of Japan has pictures of the top level champions ... they are all Tosa. As for the "million dollar match" ... come on dude. Liar. Never happened. Why would someone pay a million dollars in a situation in which the favorite will win just about every time? And in the upper levels, they Tosa wins EVERY time. There are no pit bull champions. They do fight pit bulls in Asia, but in poorer countries where they can't afford the extra 70 dollars a month to feed the larger dog. They use the dogs for betting and they won't even fight a Tosa.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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lol.. funny i have been working with both captive and wild wolves for over a decade, and you think you are going to give me behavior lessons based on a tape you saw or some book you read..LMAO.. i am not a wolf expert nor a self proclaimed expert, but i do know what i have seen with my own eyes, and the fact that almost everyone that works closely with wolves would tell you, which is they are not the best fighters... true you hear about wolves killing family pets.. a golden ret. is not a good fighter either... not much of a lesson there... you people are too funny... now to the pit/tosa discussion.. sorry but it is a fact, pits routinely beat tosas.. ever been to japan? i have, many times, i know many people there, they will tell you the same thing.. the only type of fighting that the tosa usually defeats the pit in is the old traditional raised florr fights.. where ANY vocalization causes a loss.. in the traditional style(cajun western etc) fights the pits wins the majority of the time.. the tosa usually give/break the fight.. see this is where i think you might be confused... a traditional fight has time limits, judges,and many other factors like a true game dog that wont quit, if it is being overpowered at anytime, is considered the loser, even if it has more stamina and willingness to fight.. even if would outlast and actually beat the stronger dog is not taken into consideration.. stronger dog winds by default..most tosa are winded 10-15 min into the fight, that is why they even have rules concerning the most winded dog.. lol yeah that would go over well in a cajun rules match... i guess you forgot this huh... in the western/cajun style fights the pits dominate the tosas... sorry but it is a fact of life.. btw i love the article what a bunch of BS.. lol presas were used to kill pits when the pit poulation was too large.. oh my god LMFAO if you buy that, i have some beachfront property in kansas for you... btw the article was also edited.... and the guy about the dobermans.. LOL you don't know much about dog fighting.. pits have pit mixes, staffy imports etc,, have always been the main breeds in dogfighting here in the U.S. dobermans.. lol , your book is lying to you... as for this quote, "The pit bull was a "come lately dog" and was bred to be smaller than the fighters." lol the pit bull was not bred to be smaller than the fighters... it was bred to be smaller than the dogs that engaged in things like bull and bear baiting, because the larger dogs were not as quick and they became exhausted to quickly in dog on dog matches... the pit bull came from crosses of old style bulldogs brought to the U.S. and dogs like the english white terrier(which is extinct) and the staffordshire bull terrier and other like breeds... by the time the pit was developed, the main fighting dogs were already small... so you point escapes me.. as i said before armchair experts

Answer by helloagain
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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i am not lieing,and i knew this person very well and have no reason to beleive he was lieing either. if by chance he was lieing, then i an wrong, anyways i didnt come here to argue, and i have to admit your more intelligent then most here and i agree with you on alot of points. heres the info i know to maybe help in search. it was around 1993 give or take a year. it happened in clark co. about 8 miles outside neillsville on granton rd. also, the address and phone numbers you gave for the d.n.r. is only a regional headqaurters, the main headqaurters is in madison. i dont have the info. and i really dont care to look it up, but you can if you want too. also im not sure but i think the state police wouldn't have anything to do with this, they are more into highway patrol.like i said i dont want to argue so this will be last post. good luck to ya.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Haha tiger cat! and your other alias! Tigercat said, "ever been to japan? i have, many times, i know many people there, they will tell you the same thing.. the only type of fighting that the tosa usually defeats the pit in is the old traditional raised florr fights.. where ANY vocalization causes a loss.. " Actually, I LIVED in Japan a large part of my life. You have never been there or you didn't go anywhere. You also don't know anything about dog fighting in the USA. Dogs rarely die...and the pit never beats the Tosa .. oh, you said you knew a lot of people in Japan? Haha! Well, call the city number and ask them about legal fighting events .. there's ONE type of fighting in Japan! Tourist Information Center Tel: (0888) 82-7777 Everyone call so that these liars can be seen for what they are ... probably kids. They don't give us any information...just that they are experts and have a bunch of wolves and dogs. They make mistakes when they lie about dogs killing wolves. It doesn't happen.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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You don't pay attention to what you read or maybe you don't read it. I said the Tosas are the only ones to reach the finals. All the top rungs are held by Tosas. The pit bulls don't make noise when they are fighting either. If you knew about pit bulls, you would know this. They even "bow" sometimes before attacking. Most dogs do this to play. They will wag their tails while in a death grip. Hanging on and shaking is not fighting and it's broken up by the pit master. One characteristic of pit bulls that make them dangerous is their silent attack. They might even wag their tails and attack without barking. They are trained to do this because barking only "weakens" them and is used to "warn" others. Most dog fighters in the US "burn their box" so that they can't make sounds that detract from betting and attract attention. "Bill concerning pit bulls proposed" Columbus, OH. March 14� Pit bulls and other dogs that have bitten people .... are considered vicious ......trend has some state lawmakers even more concerned. "Today at the state house a bill that would outlaw the practice of de-barking vicious dogs was the focus of intense discussion. De-barking is accomplished by destroying the vocal cords in these animals, either by severing them during a controlled surgery or in more crude backyard procedures that may include ramming a red hot steel rod down the dogs throat that sear the voice box and silence the dogs forever. According to supporters of the bill, the procedure only succeeds in turning them into silent killers. The bills sponsor, Republican Bill Olman says dog fighting and the illegal drug trade is fueling the spread of these silenced and dangerous dogs. The bill also has the support of the Ohio Veterinarian Medical Association. The support came after language was added that would limit liability to vets who silence dogs that are not considered vicious."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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I suggest you call the number I gave. They have ALL reported wolf deaths and have kept them for twenty years. They know NOTHING of what you are talking about!!! It was a complete lie, but now you are saying that someone just told you....your story has changed. Most wolves die from being killed by other wolves. They constantly test their status. The average wolf lives only four years in the wild. In American dog fights, Cajun rules ... At the fight, the rules are posted inside the entrance. The heading says something such as, "The Gamer of Two Dogs, Ready and Willing" Both owners mutually decide upon a referee. You must have a corner man that basically washes the other owner's dog. He also remains as an observer. They use breaking sticks and pencils to separate the dogs in the US, just as they did in England and it's official rules...do you know how they separate them in Japan? Probably not. As in Japan, any dog that jumps the pit loses without scratches being necessary. The dog also does not have to scratch for a dead dog...the living dog is the winner. In the USA, the first dog to turn must scratch first. To be a fair turn, the dog turning must turn his head, shoulders and front feet away from the opponent and regardless of whether or not the dogs are otherwise touching. If there is a turn, the owners must pick their dogs up "free of holds" .... if they are not free of holds, they must be placed back upon the ground and separated, then picked up again. The referee then notifies the handlers which dog must scratch. After about 25 seconds, the timer calls "Get ready" The handlers stand with the dogs between their legs. The handler's toe must be on the scratch line and after five more seconds, the timer yells, "Let Go." The handler of the scratching dog must immediately release all contact with the animal. The scratching dog must then go immediately to the opponent. He can crawl or drag himself .. he doesn't have to go straight, but he can't stop at all or he is out. The other owner can let go his dog any time he wants, but usually he will hold him if the other dog is wounded and crawling. There is no time limit, but if the scratched dog does not make contact, the other dog wins. There's no reason to let him go at this point, especially since he might have won and releasing the unscratched dog will only provoke the fight. This can be some of the worst moments ... I have never seen this, but I have heard that some very injured dogs will drag themselves across the canvas to the scratch line. However, the handler would stop the fight. Most dog fighters are not rich. They fight for money and they make bets. In Japan, the dogs often have billionaire owners from the Middle East or other areas of the world. They have placement just as they do for Sumo, and there are different rungs for the dogs, with the Yokozuna being the top. There were some pits a few years ago at the bottom rungs, but none made the finals. In this case, the dogs are fought to fight. In the USA, the dogs are only fought that are similar weight. If you have a really big pit, you might not find a match. also, they don't like to fight other mean breeds, especially if they are big dogs. There's a rule that the owners must agree upon before the match, and this is "time out" If the dogs don't fight after 30 seconds, the dog loses. Otherwise, he has forever. Also in the rules, because this happens...sometimes, the dogs just stop fighting. Maybe they are tired or who knows? At this point, the ref can call for scratch out to win and the time keeper notes the time and records the event. The rules are posted because money is always bet .. and losers can become quit violent. There are crowd control within the area that immediately goes for the owner that causes trouble or the gambler. In poor areas of Asia, men with instruments similar to hammers will begin breaking bones of anyone that gets out of line. Sometimes, they must kill a dog too, but this is rare. All rules say that nothing can be passed inside the pit to a handler ... the handler's dog automatically loses. The main fights occur when a handler steps across the scratch line before the dog. This results in a loss. The handler cannot speak to the dog or kick the floor either. If he does, the dog loses. You can't touch the other dog or touch your dog unless the command to "handle" is given. The dog doesn't bite people because it also disqualifies him. Any real fighter that bites in the pit is "culled" because it causes loss. In some parts of Asia, the dog is immediately "hammered." In the USA, you must remove your dog forever. At any rate, the rules of engagement are very similar in Japan and the USA. It doesn't serve any purpose to fight to the death. Long before the dog is dead, you know who will win and who will lose. It's this stupid understanding that creates the false impression that all dog fights are brutal and bloody. The owners are often this way. Most of the dogs can't even bark. Now, street fighting in LA or NY is different. Often, the dogs have questionable parentage and they are poorly fed and trained. The fights can be loud and often the loser is a real loser. These dogs could not fight real fighters.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Hey Tigercat...you don't know the rules. It's true that many matches don't have time limits (unless agreed upon as mentioned earlier) but once a dog turns the fight ends quickly. He is totally at the mercy of the other dog. You don't seem to have common sense here. It's like in boxing ... the match is stopped immediately if the boxer doesn't respond or doesn't raise his hands to protect himself. If the fight isn't stopped, the boxer will be dead before he hits the ground. So, do you fight? Do you think that a guy that turns his head and tries to get away has "game?" He knows he's losing and if the other fighter punches him in the back of the head or hooks him to the side, the boxer not responding can die immediately. It's not so much that you don't know what you are talking about ... you don't have common sense at all and you have no sense about fighting!!! The fight lasts when both dogs continue defending themselves and being the aggressor. Even a girl knows this!!! What are you thinking? So, the dog that turns .. has more game and if the fight goes on ... he will win? Hahah!!! You should be ashamed. In Cajun rules, the dogs are separated and the turning dog must scratch. If he doesn't the match is over. That's no different than in Japan.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Haha! The dog won't survive the wolf fight. I would think nothing of fighting a pit bull .... I would not like fighting a wolf. Animals are funny. Sometimes, size means a lot. I thought for most of my life that a tiger would kill a lion in a fight ... the tiger can be much bigger and the Siberian can be twice as big as an African lion. However, I read more about the Roman times and learned that they didn't even pit lions and tigers against each other because the lion always won ... that huge main protected him from harm and attack on the neck. The pit bull's loose skin protects him some ... they will bite and puncture each other, but it's hard to grab something vital. Pit bulls can't even get hold of a Tosa's vitals because the skin is so loose. I can pull the skin on the back up at least a foot. It's amazing. Dog fighting was a way of life in some states, such as Louisiana. Betting has always been the life stay and what dog fighting was about here in the US. It was different in Japan. Here's an actual dog fight ... one of the most famous fights ever. They were small dogs, small because it's cheap to raise them and their owners are poor. Bets are made and the odds change as the dogs fight. "Cadillac Kennels" "Classic Contests" April 28, 1968 - "Jack Smith" vs "Floyd Boudreaux" - Males 38lbs. Cajun Rules "Howard Teel" Referee and "Pete Sparks" Timekeeper Jack is using a red and white dog called "Bozo", said to have been bought by Sonny Sykes from Jerome Hernandez. Floyd is using a black which he calls "Eli". Eli gets the first hold as Bozo gets skin hold in throat. Eli is getting into the throat of Bozo as Bozo works an ear trying for a shoulder, $50 dollars to $25 dollar bets being made. Bozo the favorite. Eli is showing good and working for Bozo's throat. $500 dollars to $250 dollars being offered. All the dog fighting in this previous match is being wraped up in 10 minutes of this fight. Eli gets in Bozo's throat at 14,then Bozo throws one leg over Eli's shoulder, gets a ear and throws Eli. Bozo gets a shoulder and shakes and Eli gets a mouth hold and gets him off. Eli up at 15, and into throat. Eli comes up and the bets shift to even more as both dogs working shoulders and front legs. Bozo gets a nose and shakes at 21. Changes to the hind legs, gets stifle and shakes. Bozo is working the front legs. Back to mouth fighting at the 25 minute mark. Bets getting hard to get at even money as first one then the other gets on top and gets nose and mouth. Eli acts as though he has shot his wad. Bozo, has opened up Eli's front leg and Eli is weakening. The story is, that Eli has heart worms. At the 38 minute mark, a pickup. Bozo to scratch. Made determined scratch, and gets a front leg, and Eli goes into Bozo's neck. At the 40 minute mark another a pickup is made, Eli scratches hard. Bozo gets nape of neck and Eli goes down. At the 45 minute mark Kenneth Chandler says, if the little black dog don't win, his children will go hungry for a week. At the 54 minute mark, another pick up was made with Bozo to scratch, and he made a very determined scratch. At the 57 minute mark another pick up was made with Eli to scratch, he trotted over and took an ear hold and Bozo goes down. Bozo makes a good scratch at the one hour mark. One minute later, Eli makes a good scratch and Smith gives up the fight. Eli is the winner in one hour one minute.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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The Cadillac Kennels are located in Springfield IL and still sell the equipment used to fight dogs, including rule books and so on. You can trace the evolution of dog fighting from the dog fight minutes ... for example, gambling was reduced "publically" in 1976 and so the gambling was less reported in the minutes, but was just as intense. It was hidden. MOST of the fight records are for Louisiana fights, many in Kenner (outside New Orleans). The fine was about 150 dollars for fighting. By the way, "stifle" is the knee of the dog. At any rate, anyone that seriously believes that small 38 pound dogs are world beaters and can kill wolves is crazy....or maybe they just lack any common sense at all and they have no world experience!

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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umm you are laughable.. if you did actually live in japan, which it is obvious you didn't(or you did as a small child) you would know there are 2 i repeat 2 types of dog fighting in japan.. lol you need to do some research before calling anyone a liar.. western style dog fighting as been going on in japan for around 40 years and has grown in popularity.. let me say it slow for you... traditional Japanese dogfighting is not done in a pit, it is done on a raised floor kind of like the octagon in UFC.. it has 3 judges, and time limits.. usually between 15 minutes and 30 minutes.. in Okinawa it is usually a bit longer 30-45 min.. there are rules against any sound(growling yelping whining etc) there are also rules concerning dogs being exhausted.. there are also rules concerning the domination of a fight.. as i mentioned before... try and keep up... in western style of cajun rules fighting there IS NO TIME LIMIT.. the dogs are washed by the other handlers/owner (if the owner is allowed in the ring, varies from country to country..)the dogs are turned and faced and let go.. they fight.. if it becomes a stale mate of if one dog is clearly dominating the other the dogs are separated(usually when free of holds, but they can be broken, then they are scratched.. with the loosing dog let go first to see if it will scratch or cross.. etc etc etc.. sorry this is the brief explanation.. most of the time there are no deaths in a fight.. unless you count the new wanna be dog fighters, that simply let dogs fight.. but we wont count them. and yes pits are normally silent when they fight(or they whine an excited type of whine).. "So, the dog that turns .. has more game and if the fight goes on ... he will win? Hahah!!!" are you retarded.. i never said that.. try reading actual words.. i said that in traditional japanese fighting if a dog is being dominated, even if it is game and does NOT QUIT FIGHTING it is considered the looser... try and keep up.. in cajun rules the dog would be scratched. you are proving how little you know everytime you post.. you obviously dont know anything about fighting in japan... here is a quick lesson for you. The traditional match: Held in a raised platform shaped as an Octagon. These usually have a time limit of 30 minutes but with some locations like Okinawa have longer time limits at 40 minutes. The time limit is in place so that they allow the number of dogs that are entered at a tournament to take place at a steady pace. Additionally, only males are usually allowed to fight in the tournaments. In this type of match there are 3 judges that rule and sit on top of the ring, the owners are not allowed to be in the ring and must direct their dogs from the top of the ring and are not allowed to touch the dogs at any time. Once the dogs are released and after the first min. or two, all growling or vocalization from the dogs must cease.The first dog that starts to whine, cry, growl, bark, etc..(Seri) is the loser. Also the dog that starts to turn away from it's opponent (3 steps to be exact) (Hashiri) is also the loser, jumping the ring or attempts to leave the fight is also the loser. Basically, the rules are set in place that a dog with questionable braveness has all the opportunity to leave the fight to determine the braver of the two. A dog that does not show any signs of quitting could lose if he is simply overpowered and it becomes a one way fight. When the duration of the bout gets longer, and both opponents start to become winded, a winner can be determined by the dog that is in holds and the loser that is out of holds for a length of time. (Osaekomi) If both dogs are winded and out of holds, the dog that is standing at the 3 minute time limit will be the winner.If both dogs are still fighting and in holds at the 30 minute mark then it will be a tie. At the 30 minute mark, if one of the dogs is out of holds, or lying down and the other one is relentlessly attacking, then the one still fighting will be the winner. but i'msure you already knew all of that right? LOL..

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Loser! Again, I have posted the number in Japan. What you are saying is a total lie. NO PIT BULLS reach the finals. It has NOTHING to do with make noise, idiot. The owners silence them surgically. You really think that someone would fight dogs and allow the dog to lose because he barked? Hahah! No, the owner would eliminate this possibility. The fight is not stopped unless one of the dogs turn. They don't stop it because he is losing. Common sense would tell you this. There's still a lot of blood on the canvas. You can talk all you want and tell us what an expert you are, but you have nothing to support what you say. There is only one type of fighting in Japan. It is different from the US, mainly in that they sometimes fight dogs that are unmatched in size. You will find American dog matches always pit the dog to the pound. The records indicate this. Many that fight in the US are low lifes that are impoverished. The use the bull dog because it is small and cheap. The money is from gambling. Everyone in dog fighting knows this, and they are honest about it overseas. You ignore reality, logic, common sense, and experience from people that are really familiar with what's going on. Too bad for you. Your stuff about being a "one way fight" is a total lie. In Japan, the dogs often become bloody and they don't stop the fight until one of the dogs has turned. It's the same way in the US. There are fights in Japan where the dog gives up quickly, but that happens in the US too. Sometimes, the dogs just don't fight at all. I don't think you even know what "scratching" means! You have nothing to support your contentions. They are just ideas in your mind.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Someone showed me the webpage where you got your information about dog fighting. This is older and things have changed there. The article clearly mentions that the dog fighting is divided into weights...the smaller dog can fight larger dogs if they wish, but there's not much chance of them winning. The smallest Tosa is bigger than the biggest pit. However, when they do over lap, the Tosa almost always wins. For the first rung, the dog has no weight limits ... a smaller pit does not stand a chance and so no pit bull makes it to the top rung. All dog fighting in Japan falls under one authority and is closely monitored. The "second" type of fighting is not really different and is under the same authority. It's just designed for pit bulls because they can't compete in the other category. It has nothing to do with barking because most of them can't bark (surgical reasons). The problem in this country is that people often believe absurd stories about other countries and cultures. They also tend to exaggerate .... and the pit bull is the biggest exaggeration. It's just a small dog and it can beat other small dogs in some cases...but it certainly would not be pitted against a big dog. If it did, it would standa chance. The Tosa is so expensive to feed and maintain that there are few of them left in Japan. They are too friendly to be guard dogs, but they can fight if they need to be and are protective of people...but not of property. The pit bull is ... just as it seems. It's a small dog that was bred to be inexpensive. It's the poor man's fighting dog and nothing more.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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ok it is obvious now.... you have NO IDEA about dogs period... you don't have a clue about pit bulls, tosas, dogfighting in japan, or just about anything else.. your last two posts PROVE IT.. you are only making yourself look bad... i have looked around these forums and there are VERY FEW people here that know anything about daogs, and you my friend are not one of them... you are really beginning to look like a wanna be... sorry, but it is true... even your stats in your last post are wrong... pit bulls do not even place in the top 5 concerning dog attacks in the U.S. and you messed up the fatality rate.. pits and rotties make up roughly 54% of all fatalities in the country.. even at that fatalities make up less than one tenth of one percent of all attacks.. "They can blame it on the owner, but the fact remains that these dogs will kill children and the elderly." ha ha ha... wanna be... lol you do know that pit bulls have one of the highest passing rates from the ACTTA right.. higher than labs, goldens etc.. lol i say again you are clueless.

Answer by youverystupidpeople
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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Wow its a crazy in here, I wonder if you had a pit and great white shark fight, and the pit had flippers and the shark had legs that would make for a good match that all the Japanese and Americans would come from all over the world to see. Everybody is so one sided in here. You know what? that is what a seal is its a damn dog with flippers oh and sharks hunt seals ok game over. Man firedragon you seem to know what you are talking about and you along with Tigereye see to be regurgitating the same old crap. Could either of you post a web site (keep in mind the web site has to be legit) with information on these dog fights and all these matches, you know for us more ignorant people about dog fighting and all the tiny aspects that go into it. Cause both of you as well as anyone eles in here can talk your side until you are blue in the face and your fingers are blistered from typing so many damn posts, but stating your side is pointless unless you give us some easy access real information,cause most of the people in here are just not gonna call the wild life reserves, or talk to some dude in japan with bad English if any at all. The point i am getting at is lets make alot of believers out of you two and give us some real proof with pictures and websites supporting this sport.If not all of what you are saying could be just an elaborate lie.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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that was a funny comment about the pit bull having flippers and fighting a great white shark. also PITBULLOWNER, very few wolves ever get as big as 180, even though some have. females average aroung 80-90 pounds, some smaller, some bigger, the biggest female wolf that was radio collared in yellowstone was 116 pounds. Males usually range between 110 to 130 pounds. The largest male in yellowstone that has been radio collared(which means some could be bigger or smaller) was 141 pounds. This is from the book Yellowstone Wolves of the Wild. try to find it, the author is James Halfpenny. i have read that little more than rarely you see wolves get up to 175 pounds in alaska and canada. the largest wolf ever i believe was 207 or 220 something. am not sure, but it was in the 200's.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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first of all pits do not deserve there reputation like you say. they make up alot more than just 1% of dog population.i bet at least half the pits are not even registered because of laws. second, bite statistics lumps 7 breeds into the pitbull category. they consider the term "pitbull" to refer to any muscular broad jawed dog that slightly resembles the a.p.b.t. and out of those 7 breeds the factually apbt is last on the list for bites.out of the hundred and some breeds tested in temperament tests the pitbull ranks 4th highest for best temperament. you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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HEY!! Pit bull owner, go climb East face Monitor Peak in Colorado. If you make it back, spout off more foolishness. My hands are above average strength from roping up and down peaks. I placed 4 pound kitten in tub to rid from fleas. Domestic cats hate baths. The little fellow was so powerful, it took ALL my strength in both hands to restrain him. What amount of strength does a 180 lb cougar have? Almost HUNDREDSx that little cat. He can sustain 40 foot leap down from tree. He can do 15 foot vertical leap from dead stop. He can raise 350lb calf with only neck muscles. You laugh when I say a pit bull must fear his slash. God save your bully dog from great cougar. Next go to Brazil and intro your poor dog to Jaguar, the cat who crushes skulls with one bite. This cat can make deep punctures into BOWLING BALLS. Now we wait to hear, pit bulls are training by taking swimming lessons in vats of MOLTEN STEEL! GARBAGE from pit owners!!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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Haha! Loser! I didn't say anything about simple dog ATTACKS. I have been attacked by many dogs and never hurt. There are millions of attacks every year. What concerns me are the DEATHS and SERIOUS injuries. That's why they banned them. MOST of their victims are children under the age of five ... yea, a tough dog. 70 percent are children. Here is what tigercats said, "pit bulls do not even place in the top 5 concerning dog attacks in the U.S. and you messed up the fatality rate.. pits and rotties make up roughly 54% of all fatalities in the country.. even at that fatalities make up less than one tenth of one percent of all attacks.. " You have not cited any sources. I have given numbers to check. There is only ONE dog fighting center in Japan. Anyone here can call that number to confirm it. As for the deaths, the year most cities began banning pit bulls, in 1988, pit bulls accounted for 62% of the deaths�..see below. Pit bull fatal attacks upon humans dropped significantly after the bans � this is after the percentage had been climbing. Over all, during the THREE decades or so, the dog probably averaged a fraction of a percentage of the total dogs and still averaged 1/3 of deaths. The Rot passed the pit after the pit was banned. You must be a kid and have no idea about any type of fighting. Even in the US, they don't it 30 pound dogs with 40 pound dogs. I have the website where you COPIED most of your information. It plainly says that Tosa are too big to fight pit bulls. The fact is that a smaller dog can fight a larger dog in a challenge, but the larger dog cannot challenge the smaller dog. The pit bull never makes the finals. Only the largest pit bull wins against the smallest Tosa, and even then...only some of the time. Pit bulls accounted for over half the deaths in many of the urban areas.....pit bulls do not make good watch dogs and are not powerful enough to kill most adults. So, 70 percent of pit bulls fatally attacking humans involved children. The bigger dogs are often involved in security or maintaining property. THE MAJORITY OF PIT BULLS ARE NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO KILL A HEALTHY ADULT HUMAN..So, the larger and more powerful breeds generally killed adults I have already posted the percentage of children killed by pits. The thing here is that it doesn't matter what the reason. A very small part of the dog population is responsible for a huge percentage of the deaths. Pits by the 1980 were banned by most cities and so Rots took over as being the number one killer. HUMAN FATALITIES FROM PIT BULLS GREW TO 62% IN 1988. At this time, many cities banned pit bulls, and the deaths from pit bulls dropped. ABSTRACT Dog bite-related fatalities from 1979 through 1988. Sacks JJ, Sattin RW, Bonzo SE JAMA 1989 Sep 15;262(11):1489-92 http://www.dogexpert.com/Literature/Sacks(2).html By combining data from the National Center for Health Statistics and computerized searching of news stories, we identified 157 dog bite-related fatalities that occurred in the United States from 1979 through 1988. Of the 157 deaths, 70% occurred among children who were less than 10 years of age. The death rate for neonates was almost 370 times that of adults who were 30 to 49 years of age. Pit bull breeds were involved in 42 (41.6%) of 101 deaths where dog breed was reported, almost three times more than German shepherds, the next most commonly reported breed. The proportion of deaths attributable to pit bulls increased from 20% in 1979 and 1980 to 62% in 1987 and 1988.

Answer by Dennis Watson
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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Tigercat, as you can see, took his "knowledge" of the Tosa and dog fighting ... literally word from word ... from this website. Except he lied and left out that only the smallest Tosa can fight the largest pits and the small Tosa wins .. not always, but remember ... a small Tosa dwarf generally has something wrong with it, as do all dogs that are abnormally small. They are not as strong per pound and lack other characteristics. The "two" type of fighting in Japan involve the inferior pit bull, a small but scrappy dog that cannot compete with the Tosa. A smaller dog can challenge a larger dog, but rarely wins and in the case of the pit ... never wins against the larger Tosa. Out of five hundred championship matches, none of the pits made the finals. In Japan, he's a scrappy little dog and very cheap to keep. The larger Tosa is losing it's place because it is so expensive. Most pit bull owners are as stupid as dirt. They won't accept that pit bulls are dangerous around children...in Japan, they won't have even large dogs around children, no matter what their disposition. Pit bulls have the potential to kill .. which the owners won't accept. Before they were banned, they accounted for 62 percent of the deaths. There are few pit bulls in the US compared to other dogs. Of course, there are people here that go by their own minds. They are an example of being as stupid as dirt. They can't suppport anything that they say. No one in Japan seriously believes that a pit would stand a chance against any Tosa except the unhealthy runt of the litter. Pit bull owners feel inadequate or maybe isolated from society. They often buy the dog because they know little of animals and think the pit bull can beat any animal, maybe even the lion. You commonly see the page where they claim pit bulls were used in the past to kill bears and lions....the actuality is that they were not good hunting dogs and were killed quickly because they could not keep the animal at bay or avoid the claws ....Filas sell for about $3,000 to $4500 ... when trained. They are used by the military to sniff snipers. German pointing dogs are great too. English setters are the most popular. These are kick ass dogs that can keep their distance from dangerous animals and let you know they are there. They give you time to get there too. Is anyone really afraid of the 38 pound pit? The Tosa in unlimited class can weigh more than 200 pounds. Male wolves weigh about 140 to 200, depending upon where you find them and their breed. Oh, the Hunting Society is a great place to find out about hunting dogs. You pit bull types can tell them why hunters should use pit bulls .. the hunter won't even have to use his rifle. The dog will kill the bear! You can also call 450-347-8979 to find out about advantages of real dogs....for hunting. Tell them "the dragon" sent you. They will give you a discount!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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Anyway, most of what you hear about dog fighting is the worst case. Most of the dog owners did not want to lose their dogs and would only keep a dog in a fight if there was a chance of winning. The Japanese used dogs that were so powerful, they were frightening, but these dogs are too expensive to maintain; and advantage is that they were so difficult to fatally injure that few died in fights. It was not common in the US and was very uncommon in Japan. The pit is a poor man's dog. They are cheap, often free in litters. They were banned in many cities, but people still got them to fight. Death generally occurs when you have two dogs that are very mismatched ... in size or ability ... and the damage is done before the handlers can break them. The rules in Japan and here are very similar, but the fight ends more easily here because the dog need simply turn. In Japan, they have to step three steps and that's a lot. Here the dog only need to turn his head and shoulders away. He doesn't have to step anywhere. Dogs are like humans. Short, muscular or squat humans tire much more quickly than taller lean humans. There are reasons for this, but I won't go into it. The endurance of a Tosa is superior to that of a pit. It's stronger, much stronger. It has bigger teeth and ... the skin is so loose that the pit can't injure the dog. It would be hard finding a Tosa small enough to fight a pit, but when you find such a dog, the Tosa does very well. Most of the pit owners I have met are idiots. They have unreal expectations of their dogs. They don't buy them because they are friendly or lovable. They buy them because they think they are deadly. It's the dog of choice for people that hate society or have issues with others. Sometimes, these owners feel isolated or alone and what something that will give them security. So, the pit goes to these strange personalities. In most urban areas, they are illegal and so it takes a strange personality...one willing to break the law ... to own one. And, as the people that take drugs, they will never admit there are problems!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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NICKNAME .... dude, think about what you are saying. You must be the proud owner of a pit bull or a pit bull owner wanna bee !! Haha! You contradict yourself. First, you say that there are a lot more than 1% and then you say that they count every dog that even looks like a dog a pit bull!!! Haha!! So, are they OVER represented or UNDER ??? you are just talking!!! Haha! Just saying anything that comes into your head! And your source of information ... because you contradict the American Kennel Club, the CDC and other agencies ...haha! As for temperment...what does that have to do with anything? They were responsible for most of the deaths in the US from dog bites before they were banned!!!! I don't know you, but you must be ... some kind of genius!!@ Yea, a real smart dude!! Haha! So, a dog that is about 1% of the population accounts for the MAJORITY of deaths from bites before it was banned ... but you say it has a good temperment and won some kind of award!! Haha! You sound like...OJ Simpson! He won an award too! But I wouldn't want to live next door to him and have my sister date him!!! Haha! NICKNAME said, "first of all pits do not deserve there reputation like you say. they make up alot more than just 1% of dog population.i bet at least half the pits are not even registered because of laws. second, bite statistics lumps 7 breeds into the pitbull category. they consider the term "pitbull" to refer to any muscular broad jawed dog that slightly resembles the a.p.b.t. and out of those 7 breeds the factually apbt is last on the list for bites.out of the hundred and some breeds tested in temperament tests the pitbull ranks 4th highest for best temperament. you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know."

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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Haha!! NICKNAME SAID, "you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know." Hey, I don't want to discourage you, dude...but what do you know, exactly? I am trying to figure this out! Better check what facts? I knew them. I just put a few references up. Now you know too. I know that in your mind, you know a lot...and you probably tell yourself this. But, why don't you just try to find the facts and stop letting your emotions run your life? I know how bad you want to think that a pit bull can kill an elephant, but it can't. Wishing you knew a lot doesn't mean you know...you've got to get experience and study some. I might also add ... that I inherited the Fila from an uncle. I can't afford a dog of more than about 1200 dollars .... or so I tell myself. Tosas cost MANY thousands, they are more expensive than Filas....a fighting champ can be tens of thousands. My African hunting dog was a gift a few years ago. I think it's hard to beat the English Pointing dog because they know how to bay and they know how to stay away from claws and teeth.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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LMAO... you obviously are a wanna be.. by the way my ost that was coppied.. is on about 20 different sites.. lol also you mention the dogfighting center in japan.. so i am guessing you mean the joke of japan the kochi dogfighting center... it is considered a joke by people like sudo san and his son.. you do know who they are right? probably not so go look it up and come back... check out the CDC, ACTTA for you statistics concerning bites.. you are the biggest wanna be i have ever seen... you obviously have NEVER been to japan, nor have a clue about it... and you BS about pits is laughable at best... my guess is you have only seen a tosa and a fila in pictures.... or your daddy owns one and it is your pride talking, because it sure isn't your knowledge posting here... you are a joke my friend.. that's about it... the more you talk the more it shows how LITTLE you know... the kochi center is considered a tourist attraction by the majority of dogmen in japan... but you knew that too right? lol speaking of tosas do you know the people at stonewall kennels.. they are one of the most respected tosa kennels in the U.S. and the majority of japanese fighters respect their dogs too.. ALL of their line dogs come from the top kennels in japan.. so have you heard of them? probably not, so look them up too... when you get done with your research come back then we will talk....

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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Haha! Sounds like one loser using more than one name. So, I have supported everything I have said. What you say is not even supported by common sense. Your knowledge comes from your head. You can deny the facts all you want ... but you are a liar. The homepage you took the information about dog fighting in Japan said Pit Bulls are in the low weight classes and even the smallest of Tosas are too big to fight the big pit bulls. So, only the runts can fight them and the Tosas usually win! Loser! Haha! You are not too knowledgeable and it's obvious from what you write. Haha! Stonewall kennels!! Call the number I guess in Japan with the tourist bureau .. they haven't even heard of Stonewall Kennels! There aren't ANY Tosa breeders in the US that are respected in Japan. Stonewall is one of the hundreds of Kennels that raise pits ... haha! Idiot! Their number is Stonewall Kennels: 413-527-8851 Give them a call bozoo! Haha! Loser~~!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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I wonder if Stonewall Kennels is in trouble for something. They are the only Stonewall Kennels in the US that were listed in my AKA book. Do you have another phone number? They sell German Shepherds and have stopped selling pits. They mostly board animals. In fact � it�s possible there might be some problems with abuse. You can check it out here: Robin Carlin, DVM: 413-268-8387 Stonewall Kennels: 413-527-8851 MSPCA: Sgt LeBlond 413-781-3231 Call Sgt LeBlond at this number �.or talk to anyone. I think you are mentally insane. There�s a difference between debate and lying to back up your weak argument. Ever heard the expression, �Do you always have to be right?� Most likely, you use this expression on others. It�s actually for someone that is wrong and insists they are right, even when there is no evidence. They become so crazy, they start to lie �they believe absurd ideas and become sometimes even violent when they are confronted or challenged. You didn�t even read the posts. I posted the article from Journal of the American Medical Association .. this was cited in the CDC article and is the same information. Except that the dates, over a twenty year period, don�t reflect what was happening. You are a liar. I suspect that you write under a couple names � there�s a difference from having bad information and lying�such as when someone says they have personal knowledge of something and it�s just a lie. I read plenty of false information. But when I hear the truth, I can accept it. I can easily surrender ideas based upon false information. You have presented no credible support. You have lied and you even use .. Kennels that don�t even claim to have Tosas. Liar! Maybe you are that pit bull woman that was arrested there. I don�t know. At any rate, I think you are insane.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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Haha! Idiot. This is a total lie! In Japan, any breed can fight to the top rung, and no pit bull has ever been there. They could make a lot more than a million dollars. Show this website or where you got this information! Liar! Dude liar said, "At any given period, in any given year, there is always a catchweight pit usually in the 60-65lb range that is "open to the world" This dog represents the ultimate pinnacle of dog fighting capabilities. That is to say, any one, with any dog, wild or domesticated of any breed, from any country in the world, of any size is welcome to bring between $50 to $100K. Never has any other dog breed other than another Pit shown up. "

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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"There is no specific breed of dog called a "pit bull". The term refers to a group of dogs developed a for competitive dog fighting. Fighting Mastiffs were described by Caesar after his invasion of Britain in 55 BC and various types were developed in ancient Rome, China and Japan. As long as humans have raised dogs, we have raised protection and fighting dogs. The breeds include bull dogs, terriers and mastiffs. Bull dogs were developed as "catch dogs", dogs used to hold animals for a hunter or butcher to prepare food. Terriers were developed to find and kill vermin and fur bearing animals for hunters and property owners. Mastiffs were developed to protect property and warn off poachers. Eventually, "catch dogs" were no longer useful and bull dogs were routinely crossed with terriers to develop a family pet that would also be agile and tough enough to be protective without being too large. " http://www.pethelp.net/pits.html In Japan, a smaller dog CAN CHALLENGE a larger dog, but the pit never wins. No ever. In 500 championship matches, none were pit bulls. The pit bull was bred so that there would be a smaller dog, not tougher! EVeryone knows this that is not a fool. Japan's fearsome fighting Tosa losing out to chihuahuas, sausage dogs Utusan Express, 5 Apr 2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KOCHI (Japan) - The Tosa, Japan's fearsome fighting dog, is at risk of bowing out in its native land due to high maintenance costs of the carnivorous canine, declining interest in dogfights and a latter-day preference for cute miniature breeds like the chihuahua. This southwestern coastal city has long been a mecca for dogfighting, and as such was the birthplace of the breed that bears its former name, Tosa, bred almost a century ago to be the ideal fighter. The cross-bred creature is immensely powerful with a large head and muscular, broad-chested body. On average it weighs more than 80 kilogrammes (175 pounds) and measures 30 inches (75 centimetres) or more at the withers when fully grown. Tosa dogs, which incorporate bloodlines of great danes, bulldogs, bull terriers and German pointers as well as mastiffs, are an aggressive species with vice-like jaws to clamp around their opponents quivering limbs. Renowned for stamina and a commanding presence in the ring, the breed has become a synonymous with dogfights in Japan, but its future is now uncertain. ``I'm afraid Tosa dogs may die out in the near future,'' said Takashi Hirose, manager of Kochi's sole dogfighting exhibition centre, located in Katsura Beach, the city's most popular tourist site. ``In the current difficult economy, not so many people can afford to own Tosa dogs as it costs more than 100,000 yen ($945) a month simply to feed one, which also needs special care against skin disease,'' Hirose told AFP. " http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Apr04%205d.htm

Answer by firedragons
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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One thing that is hillarious (it always makes me laugh) is pit bull fan exaggeration. For example, you have heard that pit bulls can pull more than any other dog! Haha! For a little dog, they are OK, but they could not compete with a big dog. " Susitna, a Saint Bernard died many years ago but still lives on in the hearts and memories of dog weight pull enthusiasts. His pull of 5,220 pounds (see picture above left) at the 1976 World Championship Dog Weight Pull SM has not been challenged since and seems insurmountable to the many competitors who have since followed. Susitna's brother, Kashwitna (see picture above right), often went head to head with Susitna and on August 11, 1974, set a new world's record by pulling 6,000 pounds on wheels and won the title of World's Strongest Dog in the Guinness Book Of World Records." http://alaskansaint.com/Susitna.htm Pit bulls don't even win the "ultra light dog" division for 50 pounds. That's a little big for a pit. " Frank, the nine time World Champion in the Ultra-Lightweight Division passed away peacefully in his sleep in the early morning of June 14, 2000 at the age of 15 He was the son of a pregnant stray that was taken in by his lifelong caretaker and partner Kelley Griffin. Soon after he was born, he went to help work a trap line and haul freight to Kelley's remote homestead. This award publicly recognized his accomplishments in the Ultra-Lightweight division including his 1995 record pull of 2,450 pounds and his first place finishes at the 1987, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997 and 1999 World Championship Dog Weight Pull SM." http://alaskansaint.com/Frank.htm In fact, large pit bulls can barely compete with the "ultra light" champions!!! They also only pull the weight a couple inches ....in Alaska, they must pull it 100 feet! 1 Dusty/Pit Bull Chad Huyck 54 M 1210 26.80 120 1' 5" 2 Bella Jen Leville 56 F 1210 18.50 1420 7.5" 3 Duke/Sibe Rosalie Reyer 58 M 1000 32.57 1210 11" 4 Java/Pit Bull Chad Huyck 24 F 600 8.86 800 7" 5 Sierra Debie Seder F 0 DNQ 0 DNQ 6 Echo Debie Seder F 0 DNQ 0 DNQ http://www.amcw.org/pwwauk_results.htm Under the same rules and conditions, the pit bull cannot pull nearly as much as many other breeds .. and they lose their strength quickly and can only pull these weights for inches. To sound competitive, in the continental US, pit bulls pull (not a flat bottomed sled) a wagon on metal wheels connected to a rail, or hard tires. "Rondout Valley Animals for Adoption (Accord, NY) Second Prize Winner - $5,000 "Lug Nuts" is an inner -city program created as a response to the increasing problems communities are encountering with the illegal and inhumane practice of dog fighting. Despite the success of spay/neuter in many parts of the nation, "muscle breed" dogs such as Pit Bulls and Rottweilers, are being bred in proliferation in urban areas and often used for dog fighting and sparring. Lug Nuts organizes and hosts informal weight-pulling contests; dogs are fitted with padded pulling harnesses and are hooked up to sleds loaded up with bags of dog food, which make great prizes afterwards. This program has made great strides in replacing dog fighting in urban communities with a positive, humane form of competition that strengthens the human-dog bond. More information about Lug Nuts can be found at www.suesternberg.com.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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I answered your questions at length, but for some reason they weren't posted. Anyway, they use pit bulls in Japan that are better blood lines than here ... we are almost illiterate in the country � for example, take medications. The manufacturer tells us to give lower dosages to children�that�s because we aren�t smart enough to go by weight. In Japan, the medicine tells you dose/kg body weight. Also, ever wonder why �Walk� is being replaced by the symbol of a pedestrian walking? It�s because so many Americans can�t read. People don�t really care so much about their dogs�there are those that do, but not pit bull owners. Most pit bull owners in the US are low lifes. The ones in Japan are often educated and good couples. They look for good qualities. Many countries have organized dog fighting in one way or the other. You can find it in some of Asia and all over the Middle East. Afghanistan, for example, had organized dog fighting. The Taliban stopped it, but it�s started again.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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thank you for answering. sorry about my rude message, i was just mad because i take great pride in raising my dogs for family companionship. i once was one of those lowlifes you talk about, thats how i meet these wonderful animals. i have gotten away from my past, and now have a family and children of my own,my wife runs a daycare at home. this same breed of dog ive watched when i was younger be so aggressively in the hands of wrong people is the same breed i watched lick a kids face after the kid bashed her head with a rock. my dogs tolerate some pretty ruff playing by kids, and they love it. i know the pitbull isnt almighty but it demands respect for its ability to be a great dog in the right hands. i have seen both sides of this dog, and they do very well at whatever it is the owner wants from it(good or bad). now days, i want people to see my dogs for their loving clownish ways, and not for power or gameness, although i still respect them for what they were originally breed for.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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I posted the "ultra light weight champion" He was a dog that pulled a sled...the same sled that no pit bull of any weight has pulled more than a couple hundred pounds..that's why they use wheels. The dog pulled, 2,500 pounds and he was just 50 pounds. As a substitute for fighting, pit bulls have started their own contests....but they can't compete with other dogs. Anyone that would allow a pit bull around kids is a low life. I am not sorry for that. You are plenty stupid, dude. Have you seen a wild animal playing .... and then when it's hungry, it eats. Your stupidity risks children and you are unfit to be around children, LEGALLY in at least 23 states!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Children often don't recognize dangers. Adults must do this for them, but how about when adults are as stupid as dirt? Horn raised his tiger from birth. It was always gentle with him, always played with him...till the day it tried to kill him. Just like that. Animals, although fun to be around, bite. They don't bite all the time, but they bite. A young child should have a very small dog, one that can't do serious harm to him/her. Large dogs can even trample and stomp. Animals being playful can cause scars and serious injury. The government advises that the child learn the threatening behavior factors of animals, plus: Ask the children to act out these behaviors. Stress these principles: Animals, even friendly ones, can be unpredictable. Stay away from animals, especially large ones. Avoid animals with newborn or young. Stay away from areas with male animals. Stay calm, speak quietly and move slowly when around animals. There are also distractions. Children have been seriously injured by large dogs that have become distracted and didn't even know they had injured the child ... for example, when a cat goes by ....the dog might react and trample the child. Children can be annoying and the dog might react to this as well. With all the children maimed and injured yearly ... how can you be so stupid?

Answer by simon bar sinister
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Clearly what is called for here is to mate a wolf and a pit bull to create the scariest damn dog in the world! I've read on the internet that pit bulls have a bite strength of 2000 psi and a wolf has 1500 psi. (Actually I read that on this site, but that counts as a factual source right?) In any case, the bite strength of their fearsome progeny must be 3500 psi!!! (It's all additive right?) Furthermore, I also read on the internet that some pit bulls have flippers since they're breeding them to fight sharks. Well, we should throw that into the mix as well! But most importantly what we should then do is breed these awesome swimming, biting pit-wolf-bull dogs so that we have a huge pack. With these dogs we can then invade Japan and take over the Tosas for bombing us at Pearl Harbor. I read on the internet that there's only one fighting center for these dastardly Tosa so if we can train our swimming, biting pit-wolf-bull dogs with the bite strength of 3500 psi we can obliterate the Tosa mothershihp with a single blow! I also read on the internet that there are rules to fighting so we have to train them very carefully. I saw first-hand a pack of 200 wolves attack and lose the match because they were disqualified for attacking a swiss st benard who was actually a conscientious objector non-combatant. Actually it was my friend who saw it. But it happened at Granton Rd!

Answer by Mr Majik
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Ok listen everyone...This is a very hard question to answer. I mean a wolf is a wild animal and a Pitt Bull is a domesticated dog. No one can really measure the PSI of any animal. Dobermans are aggressive as well, like one of the other people said that a Dobie used to be the toughest or most aggressive dog before the Pitt Bull. I can see why. Look at those animals, they are monsters! They are huge, strong, fast and smart. It is not the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size in the fight of the dog though. But anyway, Wolves are wild, untaimed and dangerous, When they are around other Wolves. if a Pitt Bull anda Wolf were to get into a fight, i believe that the Wolf would win, he doesnt know the meaning of stop and his instinct will say "This animal is food and i will be killed if i dont kill him." PSI of a wolf is said to be around 1500, and a pitt bull is 250, well that really doesnt make sense though, because, There is no way to prove what the PSI is, i dont care how dangerous or tough your Pitt is, the wolf will kill it and have plenty of energy to go on. Wolves are not Domesticated, once a dog is domesticated it becomes weaker because it relies on a human being to feed and shelter it. Where as a wolf does not. The Wolf Would Win.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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ok now i know you really are a dipsh!it firedragons!!! first you say wolves will beat a pit because wolves are wild and pits are domestacated and now you compare pits to wild tigers.whats your beef? are you really this stupid or just trying to start sh!t? lets take YOUR numbers for example, which are just as wrong as you.if pitbull represents 1% of the dogs as you say then there is at least 750,000 pits.why dont we have 750,000 dog attacks then?what about the 99.9% of pits that are good family dogs that you never hear of attacking.you obviously have NEVER been around these dogs.all you say is lies! do you know that pits are used for police k-9s,search and rescue, military, and therapy dogs. so now are you going to say the police,military, and nursing homes dont know what they are doing? because i will trust the police over some retards post on the internet.check it out if your so damned smart.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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between 1995 and 1996, around 42,000 people were murdered in the u.s. in those same years 3 people were killed by pitbulls. considering the u.s. population is around 300,000,000 people, you had a 1/15,000 chance of being murdered in those two years.in those same two years you had a 1/200,000,000 chance of being killed by a pitbull. that means you are 13,000 times more likely to be killed by a man then a pitbull. and you think pitbulls are a problem, WE as americans are the problem, we cant accept the fact we are barbarians,so we blame everything else, and what better victim then a dog whose breed is already discriminated against.dont believe me, look it up for yourself. by the way in those same two years 220 people were killed by horses,now you can do the math on that one.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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LOSER! You disgust me. What if 99.99 percent of pit bulls are lovely...the ones that aren't kill children. In Japan, they don't even let large animals that have never attacked people to be around children. It's like a horse. Would you allow your child to be around a horse unattended? Say, he's five or under. If he is 12 or under and unattended, you can go to jail for child neglect. Children are about responsibility. My cousin was mauled by a large mix. He should never have been left alone with the large dog. My cousin's mom spent a few days in jail and there was a lot of embarassment ... plus court costs and so on. What a stupid woman. She could have spent years in jail. I think we are all pretty sick of people that have children and don't take responsibility. Now, she most likely would have spent longer in prison. My cousin has a large scar on the face and a rebuilt ear. First of all, the PSI of the animals can easily be measured. You must just make the measurements standard. First of all, psi is misleading...the sharper the tooth, the more the psi, but if enough pressure were exerted with a sharp tooth, the tooth would break. The PSI is simply pounds per square inch ... Bite pressure measure the "clamp" of the jaw. In other words, it's the amount of strain the jaw exerts. This measurement is about 1/10 that of a PSI measurement. That's why you see the differences...a dog with a PSI of 2000 would only be about 140 pounds on a strain gauge; however, if you use similar techniques, the wolf bite is AT LEAST four times more powerful than ANY domestic dog, including the pit. As for the rules of fighting and dogs, the Cajun and English rules will stop the fight before the Japanese rules. I have cited this. The losers that say the pits lose because they whine is not the reason. Most of them have been "burned" and cannot bark or make sounds. A small Tosa can generally beat the pit in the same weight and just about always does ... I have cited articles that compare them. I have also cited reality. I would not be afraid of any 40 pound pit. I have also cited why pits were bred...for a small dog. Anyone that knows anything about strength and fighting will know that weights make a big difference. A lightweight might have superior skill in boxing, but a heavyweight will beat him everyday. That's why there are weight classes. Dog fighting in Japan has weight classes, mostly to protect the smaller dogs. AS I have cited, the pit cannot win against the larger Tosa and they don't even challenge now. A larger dog can kill the smaller pit so quicly that it isn't sport. Small Tosas will fight pit bulls ... and they usually win even here. The owners must decide. Tosa are rare in the USA, but they aren't used in fighting because no one would bet. Also, your stats are really poor. There are less than a fourth of the number of dogs per person in the US. Less than 1 percent are pits. Why not let people have lions? The number of bites does not matter ... the deaths do. Spaniels bite more people that pits because they have larger numbers ... but they are a small dog and do not account for deaths. I have been bitten by my uncle's Spaniel a few hundred times, most of which did not draw blood. A also did not worry for my brother. Anyway, for the losers out there ... the government disagrees with you. Most people are fed up with dog owners that are not responsible and especially people that own dangerous dogs. Governments of entire nations have banned the pit and they are banned in most large cities now. They have debated this same issue and the facts prevail. You try to obscure the facts by your statements. The Spaniel cannot cause the injury. Here is another fact about dogs. The attack must generally be sustained or it won't result in death. Dogs teeth normally do not have penetration and they are typically not strong enough to break bones as is the wolf. "Dog Bites Because dogs have strong jaws and relatively dull-edged teeth, they tend to inflict "crush-type" injuries that are not deeply penetrating. Dog bites can, however, cover large areas. They ordinarily will not injure deep structures like bones, joints, tendons, and nerves, although they will often damage skin and the underlying muscle." http://www.drklein.net/bites.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Wolves can outfight, outbite...and outsmart dogs!!! Wolf Pack Bites Back.(wolf/dog crossbreeds on rescue farms)(Brief Article) Insight on the News, Feb 26, 2001, by Julia Duin "Wolves are superintelligent," says general manager Barbara Berge, who joined forces with ranch founder Jacques Evans in 1992. "Their brain size is 30 percent larger than a dog's. They are very curious. If there is a squeak in the couch, they'll take it apart to find out why." http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1571/8_17/72274327/p1/article.jhtml?term=dog+bites The Myth of the Wild Dog There are many stories of wolves being just "wild dogs" that could be tamed. While wolves and dogs do share many biological traits, they are very different from each other. The dogs we have as pets have been bred to be gentle companion animals to humans. Wolves are still wild animals and should be treated as such. Sometimes wolves and dogs interbreed, and the pups are called wolf hybrids. However, these hybrids usually do not make good pets. There is another myth that some breeds of dog, like the husky, are part wolf. But huskies are just another breed of domestic dog, like a poodle or a golden retriever A Carnivore Diet Wolves eat meat almost exclusively. In the wild, some observers have seen them eat small birds or mice, but they prefer larger prey such as goats, sheep, or deer. Wolves work as a team to attack herds of these large animals. They often go after the old, young, or sick, since they are easier to kill. Many times it is feast or famine for wolves. When they find food, they eat as much as they can, because they may go for many days before eating again. Wolves can kill their prey effectively because they have incredibly strong jaws, which can bite through even the toughest of animal hides. They can even break hard bones in just a few bites. Wolves at the San Diego Zoo are fed a special ground meat for carnivores, as well as large bones to chew on. http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-wolf.html Verifying A Wolf Kill How do you know a wolf killed an animal? You do not know - unless you find a wolf with a smoking gun bending over the corpse. So you have to build up evidence bit by bit and make a judgement. The more knowledge and experience you have, the more likely you may be right. Examine The Surroundings: Search the ground for paw marks and hairs. You can distinguish wolf prints from those of other predators but not from large dog prints. Examine hairs under a microscope for the species they belong to. Distinguish Depredation From Scavenging: Animals scavenged by wolves are already dead, having died from other causes, such as ill health, accident or other predators. So look for indications that a struggle took place: that the prey animal was grappled alive. Haemorrhages beneath the skin - on the neck, throat, back or hindquarters - indicate a struggle, because only live animals bleed when bitten. Identify Signs Of Different Predators: Distinguish depredation by wolves from other predators. The combination of certain wounds suggest a wolf: Bites and large jagged wounds on flanks, hindquarters and upper shoulders of large livestock, like cattle and horses Bites on head, neck, throat, back and hindquarters of small livestock, like sheep and calves Size and spacing of puncture wounds on the carcass matching the diameter and spacing of wolf canines Signs of feeding on viscera and hindquarters Broken and chewed limb bones Carcass almost totally consumed or torn apart and scatted by successive feedings Large prey eaten on site and smaller ones dragged a short distance from the kill site. http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/a-d4-depredation-verify.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Trained MD's CAN EASILY DETERMINE IF THE WOUNDS ARE FROM A DOG OR A WOLF. A wolf bites crushes the bone and a bite on the arm generally results in a severed limb. Dog's have dull, short teeth and they can't bite as hard ... so, their wounds are often multiple. "Daniel had lacerations of the face, left thigh, left calf, and right thigh, and abrasions and bruises of the abdomen and chest. Mr. Mahlandt was permitted to state that Daniel had indicated that he had gone under the fence. Mr. Mahlandt and Mr. Poos, about a month after the incident, examined the fence to determine what caused Daniel's lacerations. Mr. Mahlandt felt that they did not look like animal bites. The parallel scars on Daniel's thigh appeared to match the configuration of the barbs or tines on the fence. The expert as to the behavior of wolves opined that the lacerations were not wolf bites or wounds caused by wolf claws. Wolves have powerful jaws and a wolf bite will result in massive crushing or severing of a limb. He stated that if Sophie had bitten Daniel there would have been clear apposition of teeth and massive crushing of Daniel's hands and arms which were not injured. Also, if Sophie had pulled Daniel under the fence, tooth marks on the foot or leg would have been present, although Sophie possessed enough strength to pull the boy under the fence." Mahlandt v. Wild Canid Survival & Research Center, Inc. 588 F.2d 626 (8th Cir. 1979) How strong are a gray wolves' jaws? (top) The massive molars and powerful jaws of a wolf are used to crush the bones of its prey. The biting capacity of a wolf is 1,500 pounds of pressure per square inch. The strength of a wolf's jaws makes it possible to bite through a moose femur in six to eight bites. People always think their pets are safe, but: "dog dogs bites attacks 'U.S. Postal Service' Woman tells mail carrier 'dog won't bite', pit bull mauls mail carrier CA The U.S. Postal Service wants to thank a man for "saving the life of a 50-year-old letter carrier who was bitten about the face, head and arms last Wednesday so severely she had to be hospitalized..." The carrier had just received assurances from a woman that her dog was not a biter... "She had blood all over her face. She started going into shock,' he said. As bystanders called 9-1-1, Jaimez said, the carrier kept repeating, "Don't let the dog get me!' "I told her, 'No, I have the dog. I have the dog.'' [Whittier Daily} http://radio.weblogs.com/0107233/2003/06/03.html For a comparison of bites, see: J Forensic Sci. 1991 Jul;36(4):1256-61. Fatal and near-fatal animal bite injuries. Clark MA, Sandusky GE, Hawley DA, Pless JE, Fardal PM, Tate LR. A dog is rarely able to bite an arm or leg off unless it chews for a long time. Wild animals can bit an arm off with one bite.

Answer by JustButtingIn
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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We had a pit bull when I was a kid, and the family had a long tradition of pit bull ownership going back at least to the 1910s or 1920s. I grew up on stories about how great pit bulls were in the old days, and those stories usually ended up with some family member's pit bull taking out some other dog in an impromptu dog fight in the street. I don't know about PSI, but these dogs have the ability to lock their jaws when they clamp down. In one story, which I believe to be true, a dog latched onto a burglar's leg. The burglar shot it, and then the dog had to be surgically removed from the burglar's leg. I don't know too much about wolves, but I knew a dog that was half wolf, and it wasn't much different from a German shepherd (just a little dangerous when you came up on it from its blind side -- wolves have bad eyes). And I know that even though a German shepherd is bigger than a pit bull, a pit bull can rip the front legs off a German shepherd, and will do so in a fight. A wolf might be able to do better if it was a lot bigger than a shepherd, but I doubt a wolf could beat a large pit bull. After all, wolves and dogs are part of the same species. There's a reason why these pit bulls are illegal in some communities. Knowing what I know, there is no way I would keep one. And I do not believe that a person who is not a professional dog handler should have one. These are dangerous dogs, not to be underestimated. They're less intelligent than the average dog, they will be loyal to a human master but they can be pretty iffy around other humans. And pit bulls definitively have an instinctive hostility towards other dogs -- not to establish dominance like in the social structure of a pack but just to participate in the pit fighting they were bred for. To me, owning a pit bull is kind of like owning a machine gun.

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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of course i disgust you, thats what happens when you cant face the facts. i know that one number was wrong, that was YOUR number from earlier, remember? the actual number is ALOT higher because many arent registered due to breed bans.then you say government is banning them, yes to get them out of the hands of stupid people(i am sorry to hear about your cousin though, that is tragic, im sorry.) but the fact is government uses these dogs in police, search and rescue, and military without incident. there have been several million pitbulls without incident, and there have only been 66 deaths ever caused by a pure breed pitbull(as of date).now considering some of these were out right murder by the owners command, and over 50% of these dogs are owned by dumb azz, irresponsible street thugs, those numbers are remarkable. Even the center for disease control supports the fact that these deaths were the result of irresponsible ownership and not breed. you have a better chance of winning a jackpot lottery 38 times in a row then you do being killed by a pitbull. horses kill more people every year then pitbulls EVER have through out documented history, so do cows. look, i enjoy these arguments(because i educate myself) but i would like to stop our insults to each other and talk facts. i believe you mean well, and i know i do to, and we both agree pitbull attacks are horrible and something needs to be done about it. i also acknowledge your wisdom on dog fighting, but PLEASSSSSE sit and think about how many of these dogs make great pets to responsible owners and unfortunately allot to irresponsible owners too. lets get these dogs out of the hands of people who only want to intimidate, laws only take them from responsible people, leaving only people who break laws to breed them.thats the problem. i dont know the answer to getting them out of the wrong hands, but taking them from the right hands isnt the answer either.for every bad one, thousands of great ones exist, can we say that about ourselves?

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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JUSTBUTTININ, the only animal i know of that has locking jaws is the crocodile and alligator, THAT IS IT. maybe the Hippo. No matter what your family told you, Pitbulls and neither do Wolves have locking jaws. they wouldnt be able to eat that way, plus its just nonsense. I read in a book that if a wolf ever decided to attack a human(there has never been a registered attack on a human from a healthy wolf) that it would only take one to two bites and it would be over. That came from a wildlife bioligists. No pitbull, tosa, wolfhound, or any dog is going to beat a wolf. there has never been a case in which a dog has won a fight when a single wolf or pack of wolves has attacked a dog or dogs. it just doesnt happen. as for the scenario of a pit bull possibly grabbing a wolf by its legs, that would actually play a major downfall to the pit bull, wolves generally attack dogs from the neck, legs, hindquarters, and especially the back of the neck and shoulders. I have read on the internet from two sources in which a lone wolf attacked two cocker spaniels, in which the wolf grabbed one of them by the shoulder and picked up shaking it, in which the article explains that wolves do this in order to break the animals neck, or there backbone, making them paralyzed. People saw the wolf and scared it off before it had the chance to kill it. The same wolf also attacked two border collies, and killed a couple of other local dogs. The websites to read up on some of this stuff is yellowstone-natl-park.com and go to wolf reports. Their is a brief description of the spaniel attack, but there is another website that explained it in detail. I will try to find it. So if the pitbull tried to attack the wolf by the long legs of the wolf, most likely the wolf would pretty easily pick up the pitbull by the shoulders or top of the neck and just shake it until he litterally paralyzed it. I am telling you, no domestic dog would stand a chance, it just doesnt make since of dog killing a wolf.

Answer by JustButtinIn
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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So, Neal, I think you are not correct. It is a common feature of "bull" dogs to have the ability to lock the jaw, which makes them able to latch onto a bull's leg without being thrown off. In confrontations with other dogs, this makes it possible to grab and then to shake violently with the powerful neck muscles. What you say about wolves attacking humans is also true for pit bulls dogs attacking humans, as we read all to often in the news. So I do not understand your point. What you say about a lone wolf attacking two cocker spaniels is exactly what happens when a pit bull confronts two normal dogs. I know that, because our pit bull had to be put down after something like that happened when I was a kid. (Only the dogs were German shepherds.) May I suggest you learn something about pit bulls as part of the process of expressing opinions about them? You seem to be expressing an emotional response based on disbelief without any real knowledge of the breed.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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JustButtinIn, i have read about pit bulls man, and the books say that the Lock Jaw is a MYTH. read any book about pit bulls, pit bull books will even tell you that pits dont even have the strongest jaws, their determination is what makes them better fighters than rots,etc. Man, even the people on here who think a pit bull can beat a wolf, KNOW THAT THEY DONT HAVE LOCK JAWS. This is actually stupid discussing this again man, no animal except a alligator has lock jaw. that is just common sense. also, all the attacks about pitbulls killing humans are CHILDREN. look at all the statistics put before you. What i read, is that if a wolf ever did decide to attack grown human being, particullarly a man, it would only take a few bites. You can go to a official pitbull website and they will tell you they dont have lockjaw, its just stupid to imagine that. And if they did, the received it from the WOLF, because ALL dogs descended from wolves. and wolves dont even have lock jaw, neither do bears, tigers, lions, hyenas, etc. this seems stupid since we cant even make you understand that pits dont have lock jaws. also, what about the scenario i explained to you about the neck and shoulders that the wolf would get a hold of..

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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this is just getting funny, first firedragon, you need help.. and you still have no clue about anything i listed.. japan, dogfighting, traditional japanese dogfighting,wolves, weightpulling, pit bulls, anything!! you are cracking me up!! first i love how you tell me wolf facts.. umm i used to work at san diego,as well as several other zoos, i currently work with exotic animals including wolves everyday.. too funny.. ever seen a wolf take down prey in person? i have.. ever seen wolves fighting in person? i have.. ever been to japan? i have.. ever worked with pits? i have. i'm sure your answer is "NO" concerning all the questions.. it is true more people are killed by horses than dogs each year.. and fatal dog attacks make up less than 1/10th of 1% of all dog attacks, so basing your argument on those statistics is childish..even the CDC disagrees with you.. by the way many matches of dogs and wolves, dogs and cougars, dogs and jaguars,etc have taken place.. or did you not know that? heck department stores sold exotic animals many years ago, look up the jaguar fight they sponsored. not a pit though.. it is obvious that you are a clueless individual.. by the way, you said in weight pulling that pit people had to start their own contests because they lost to other dogs.. LMFAO look up weight pulling competitions... they say the opposite.. also pits have pulled much more than a coupe hundred pounds in snow/sled contests.. and ALL dogs pull more on rail/track/wheel competitions.. also you said pits pull only a couple of inches, but alaskan weightpulling is held over several hundred feet.. another bunch of BS.. 16foot tournaments are the norm.. 60 seconds.. you need help man.. why do you think you need to lie so much? come back when you have a clue... BTW pits can't "lock" their jaws..

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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I think that Tigercats is a kid. You just don't sound very intelligent. You have no support. I have never worked with wolves, but I have hunted and know about wolves. I also know that everyone knows that a wolf is MUCH more dangerous than a pit. Also, you keep talking about ALL dogs and bites. I am only concerned about pits and the deaths they inflict. Pits are less than one percent of the dog population and they inflicted the majority of the deaths in humans in 1987 and 1988. The CDC didn't disagree with me, idiot. That was a source I used. After this period, the pit was banned in many cities and the stats dropped. Pits killed mostly children....women .. and people that were disabled. After all ... they are a small dog. Neal mentioned that they don't even have the strongest bite...I think that this is true also because the bite force is generally a different dog when they compare wild animal bites. A real biter is the hyena. It has white poop...you know why? It eats the entire animal....hoves, horns, bones. The bones make the poop white. The parts that are not digested are vomitted. They can eat the entire dog, bones and all. Now, THAT's a bite.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe Idaho North
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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I can confirm earlier post about wolf going for back of neck---killing zone. We know domestic dogs came from wolves, and certuries of selective breeding. In his early time my Samoyed, Russian snow country dog from 600 miles East of Finland, to demonstrate dominance over smaller dog, started closing his big jaws on back of neck of other dog, other dog SCREAMED, and I yelled for him to stop---he stopped. Had I not been there, I don't know if the other dog would have survived. This was UNPROVOKED! It's just like a wolf show of dominance. My Samoyed remembered, in his genetics, how a wolf establishes dominance. Any Rottweiler, Tosa, or Pit, American Bulldog etc., if it gets wolf bite into back of neck, will perish on the spot. Also---my Samoyed can easily stand weather to kill any pit bull. Just place the pit in sub zero weather for an hour, my dog takes it easily, FIRST breed to BOTH North and SOUTH poles! Samoyeds historically have been used to ward off wolves; however, it could be a 7 to 1 deal, also that humans were with the dog, and wolves try to avoid humans.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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Yea, yea, Jasper..and how would you know about good points? Tiger and nick are the same guy, and he made terrible points!!! Nothing he said was supported. Do you like myths? Haha! You can also read this article. Wong, JK, Blenkinsop, B, Sweet, J., Wood, R. A comparison of bitemark injuries between fatal wolf and domestic dog attacks. J Forensic Odontostomatol. 1999, 17, 10-15. "Bite force is linked to the size of an animal," explained Kent Vliet, a University of Florida zoologist who headed up the study. "Since the report was published, we measured the bite of a wild gator, even bigger than Hercules at 13 1/2 feet in length missing the end of his tail. He bit down with a force of 2,960 pounds." To put the record measurement into perspective, hyenas, which are bone-crushing mammals, have a bite force of 1,000 pounds, slightly more than the 940 recorded for lions. Dusky sharks manage 330 pounds of force, and a common dog, the Labrador, bites with 125 pounds of force. Humans surprisingly beat out the pet dog, and measured in at 170 pounds of force.

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe Idaho North
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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force said of hyena jaws you use seems incorrect I see many references that say, hyena has strongest jaws of any land animal One reference said, 1,700 lbs force; you said, 1,000 A dog book on pit bulls said, this dog has around 2,000 lbs force If the dog has 2,000 and hyena has 1,700, then the dog has harder bite---or someone is mistaken book by wolf expert said, wolf has about 1,500 lbs another source said, bite of wolverine surpasses wolf bite in force it seems hard to feature a 50 lb beast has harder bite than 550 lb lion if so this is an oddity as for the lion, you see, a cat is less interested in crushing bone, than in making deep piercing puncture wounds, to sever arteries, nerves, etc. a lion's fangs look like railroad spikes I have no idea how hard a lion can bite; however, that's a 550 lb cat compared to a 170 lb hyena I saw lion dragging 2,000 pound cape buffalo after kill I dearly doubt the hyena could do THAT and another lion breaking a hyena's back by beating it with its front legs! the thing about the alligator is true, seen in a recent National Geographic still, it could be less dangerous to try holding those jaws shut, than those of the other animals, because they have a lot of strength also in opening them, while the gator is weaker than any of them in opening muscles one thing is without dispute, humans have most morbid curiousity of any creature I too would wish to know truth as to dominance and bite force; however, we have no right to do what is necessary to find truth

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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Yea, yea, yea. My little 15 year old sister has never fought Muhammad Ali when he was at his prime. I wonder who would win? Two guesses, the first two don't count. As mentioned in the scientific reference, the size of the dog determines the bite force (all things equal). The fact is � pit bulls do not bite harder than other dogs their size. All studies indicate that larger dogs have stronger bites. The TV show discovery recently measured the wolf, using this same criteria, and found that the wolf�s bite was about ten time that of the Rottweiler. When converted to PSO, the Rottweiler here has a bite of about three times the pit bulls cited. Medical studies on animals that have been killed by wolves and pit bulls indicate the damage by the dog needed much longer and more bites to prove fatal. It is total nonsense to put this dog in such an elite class. It�s just a little domestic dog!!! Measurement of Rottweiler�s Biting Force By Thanassis Papioannou Senior Research Engineer Research and Technology Development Cedars-Sinai Med Center OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study was to measure the bite force of a Rottweiler Force Sensor: Force measurements were conducted with a compression only force sensor (Model SBC500, Mark-10). RESULTS: figures 2a-d show the results of all four successful trials. Maximum bite force recorded were -11 lb. (fig 2a), -47 lb. (fig. 2b), -53 lb. (fig. 2C), and -49 lb. (fig 2d). Expanded views of the observed forces around their maximum values are shown in figures 3-6. DISCUSSION/CONCLUSION: The results shown above present bite strengths that can be translated into significant figures. The biting pressure can be estimated by taking into account the number of teeth making contact and the contact area per tooth. Significant pressures reaching hundreds to thousands of pounds PSI are indicated. Contact Area Per Tooth 1 mm2 2 mm2 A 1,774 884 B 7,581 3,790 C 8,387 4,194 D 7,903 3,952

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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first of all, you say me and tigercat12 are the same person but, he seems very educated on wildlife, but myself has not said one word on that subject because i don't know nor do i try to sound like i do. so how is your theory possible? second you say i don't support my posts, so here you go. go to www.cdc.gov. the American veterinary medical association, under the topic of "a community approach to dog bite prevention" says on page 1733 "singling out 1 or 2 breeds for control can result in a false sense of accomplishment.DOING SO IGNORES THE TRUE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM and will not result in a responsible approach to protecting a community's citizens"then check out under publications..dog bites on page 466 the cdc says "although some breeds were disproportionately represented in the FATAL attacks described in this report,the representation of breeds CHANGES over time.as a result,targeting a specific breed may be unproductive;a more effective approach may be to TARGET CHRONICALLY IRRESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERS." then look at breeds involved in fatal human attacks, on page 839 it says "less responsible owners or owners who want to foster aggression in there dogs may be drawn differentially to certain breeds" then under the subject of "which dogs bite?a case control study of risk factors" you will see a list of the most common dogs to bite as follows...akita-2.8% chihuahua-1.1% chow chow-17.4% cocker spaniel-4.5% collie-4.5% Doberman-3.4% Germain Shepard-19.1% golden retriever-1.1% labs-5.1% poodle-2.2% Scottish terrier-1.7% sheepdog-1.1% unknown-10.1% ALL OTHER 166 BREEDS 25.8% how is it the pitbull along with 165 other breeds only accounts for 1/4 of bites if there so horrible? the pitbull isn't even on the list of dogs most likely to bite.plus there is much more detailed information on these subjects, i just don't want to type it all.do you understand what i just wrote or do you need someone to explain it to you. either your c.d.c. you get facts from stands for center of dumb children or your just a liar. you better hope your mommy don't find out or she might ground you.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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There are different methods of reporting bite force. For example, in the one above from Cedars-Sinai Med Center they used four teeth. Think of it this way. If a woman weighs 100 pounds she exerts a certain force downward from her mass; however, if she lays down, there is less weight per square inch than if she is on high heels. Think about the pressure per square inch if she is on high heels...think about a woman laying on you and then stepping on you with high heels...then think about her using one heel...it doubles the PSI. The Hyena has the strongest jaws of any mammal ever tested ... everyone is in agreement here. The lion is actually not too far behind. OK. But the Alligator has the most bite of any animal. You see, when you study mammals, you learn some characteristics of them ... but there are many. One is that they have specialized teeth. Alligators don't, so the alligator doesn't chew his food ... the teeth holds the food, along with clamp pressure. He crushes the bones in two. The Rot had a deflection of 57 pounds on that instrument. However, you take this weight and figure out the pressure per square inch ... it was actually 1mm squared. It adds to the pressure by being a smaller surface area. A wooden floor that is large might hold hundreds of thousands of pounds. Concentrate that weight upon a very small area, say the size of a screw and it will go right through the wood. Now, when they just give you deflection readings, you get the force applied and it translate to "weight" in a way. Weight is a force and is not the same as mass...the "weight" is a measurement of how hard a body pushes down with gravity. PSI is different. It measures the pressure exerted at a specific area, in this case an inch squared. Now the Rot was measured in PSI, but the area was given in MM..looks like it would be PSMM (pounds per square milimeter), but he converted these figures. There are many concepts involved when you test bite force. It's important to be uniform in the observations. Things can be different...if you use four teeth, it will decrease PSI by a factor of four!!! At any rate, the RATIO is the same. A wolf has AT LEAST four time the bite of any dog. A large dog generally has a stronger bite than a small dog. A wolf can bit through a cow thigh in about six chomps. It would take a dog WEEKS to bite through a cow's thighbone. An alligator can crush a cow's thigh in one crunch. Wild scavengers often has a powerful bit. The animal needs fat and most wild animals don't have much fat. The scavenger takes it from the bone.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Also, in the general scheme of things, the deflection measurement is the most accurate. Once you know this, you can know the force exerted. Then, you can have a fair comparison. If you weigh 150 pounds, you can easily stand on a wooden floor. Try putting your weight on an ice pick that has the point touching the floor. You will find that the pick will penetrate the surface of the wood and finally bind and stick some distance into the wood. You don't weigh more, you are putting your weight in a very small area and this is enough to bite into the wood. When you think of "bite" you think of the force clamping down of something, not the pressure at the point of a tooth. Sometimes, they use one tooth...sometimes, two. In this test study, they used four. The less teeth used, the large the PSI. So, it would be alligator, hyena, lion, wolf, Big Dog, Small Dog. The pit is a small dog, commonly 38 pounds or around there.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Nickname, Tigercats is lying about working with animals. Neither of you are too bright. I have read this report; however, it was taken from another report that was done by the American Vet Assoc. The fact is that pits were responsible for the MAJORITY of the deaths in 87 and 88. They are only a small percentage of the dogs. They were great about getting together stats, no so smart about how they arranged them. If you take the twenty year period, a large number of Rots were also responsible; however, the pit became the main culprit until it was banned in most cities. Then the deaths dropped. Pit bulls are just little dogs. If you read about the woman recently killed in Colorado, several pits ran rampant. They attacks a few people and some dogs ... but no fatalities. Finally, they attacked a small older woman and killed her. They weren't able to kill anyone else and they didn't kill the dogs either. The woman was apparently breeding dogs for fighting and had a treadmill. She had numerous citations. It doesn't matter if pit bulls win congeniality contests or even if they are part human. They have accounted for the majority of the deaths in the past. Bites don't mean for much .... I am only concerned with deaths. Large dogs of any breed should not be around children simply because children can easily be killed or seriously injured by a big dog. I would not hesitate to leave a young child of seven or eight with a Chihuahua. I wouldn't leave the child with a pit bull, Mastif, or other large dogs .... and viscious dogs.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Well, nickname ... the reason I know that you and Tigercat are the same is that .. both of you are ignorant and seem to have a learning disability as well. Tigercat hasn't been around animals!!! Come on! You just used that to "assert" an expert authority. It doesn't work dude. When you sound completely stupid, it doesn't matter if you tell people you are an expert. People know. Both of you make the same mistakes. Neither of you have too much knowledge of the subject, but surf the net trying to find support for your beliefs. The information about pit bulls in Japan was found at a sight that said the pits could only fight the small runts of the Tosa and even then ... the Tosa did quite well. You left off much of the information. You quoted a pit bull site about the study published by the CDC. They took information from other studies and analyzed it. They didn't recommend against breed specific bans .. it's just that this is not enough to eliminate the bites....but it would sure drastically lower deaths. I think dog bites for many people are good things. People should stay in their own yards and stay clear of strange animals. You don't read all the posts. You just say things off the top of your head. You are obviously lazy and a poor student or just a kid. It's rare to find a poster that doesn't really have any redeeming points at all. You seem to get everything wrong. Plus, you don't read the previous posts ... and you miss the important issues.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Pit bulls are just little dogs. They are easily controled by a healthy adult male. However, it's often unpredictable and mean! Sheriff's search dog wounded in attack by pit bull AIMEE JUAREZ Herald Staff Writer BRADENTON - A law enforcement dog is expected to miss a week's worth of work after it was attacked by a large pit bull. The Belgian Malinois named Quinto was aiding Manatee County Sheriff's Deputy Thomas W. Franklin, 36, and Deputy Daniel K. Parham, 30, in the search for a suspect at the Water-Preston Farms property, 4011 115 St. W., at about 10:45 p.m. Saturday when a large unsecured pit bull bit Quinto's right hind leg, leaving two puncture wounds, according to a report from the sheriff's office. Franklin, Quinto's owner, kicked the pit bull in an effort to stop the attack, the report stated. The pit bull then charged at Parham. Both deputies, who are dog handlers with the sheriff's office, drew their guns and fired multiple rounds that struck the pit bull, according to the report.

Answer by poor CHRISTIAN
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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DEAR "CHRISTIAN", see what you have started here. i never realized that there was so much to learn about this subject, OR that it would be so contentious. i am not nearly as afraid of the PB OR the poor wolf as i am some of the people who post to this website. one of the many things that i have learned here is that the wolf seems only to kill when it must eat to keep from starving to death (what better reason could there be?) or to defend its territory from something that wishes to steal it away. thus i have gained a new respect for and even admiration for this animal (who was probably created by the same power that created us (whatever that power was). i have also learned a great deal about the PB and respect it more as well, but at the same time feel pity for the PB. whereas the wolf lives mostly in the wild and behaves the way he was created, the poor PB lives mostly in captivity, as is or can be the slave of people. yes, they can be ferocious and dangerous, but we people bred and trained them to be this way for our own devious purposes. the wolf is free, but the PB is pretty much a hostage. i would much rather be a wolf! thank you. SKEPTIC no more.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Yes, this is EXACTLY right. If the measurements are standard, the wolf has about four times the bite force. I am not condemning the pit bull. The lion isn't viscious for eating someone ... but he is an unacceptable hazard to humans. So, you can't have lions at your home in many cities. The pit bull should be this way too. Pit bulls tend to be obsessed....with playing with something, or any type of chore. They are also obsessed with biting and they will target you if you are weak. There are many dogs to have as pets. People that have pits and children in the house are dirt. Just plain dirt. Not just stupid, but criminal. It's like these people that hire known child molesters for baby sitters ... or a fox to guard the hen house. What is wrong with them?

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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hey Firedragons---please don't put words in other people's mouths; don't act like you have been authorized to speak for everyone else! You say everyone is in agreement that the hyena has the strongest jaws of any mammal. There is NOT universal consensus about that. Absolutely NOT! People posting here are never going to settle the argument. If I saw objective proof about the hyena being #1, I would then agree to that proof. But no proof has been supplied. Researchers in Africa have indeed studied the hyena. But I doubt that those same researchers have studied other bites. A grizzly bear bit through a three quarter inch steel bolt, for instance. Sorry, I don't have page #, name of publication, date, city in which publication is published, author name, etc. I did see this report before, but at the moment, it wasn't of interest to me. I also feel, from having collected over 100 books which describe the wolverine, that this 40 to 60 pound beast could have stronger jaws than a hyena. Various sources concede the wolverine jaw to be more powerful than the wolf. In any case I have no doubt that a healthy specimen could plow his way through a 170 lb hyena, because its claws are extremely dangerous, giving it the same advantage a feline has over a canine (take note, I did NOT say hyenas are either "canine" or "feline"). A wolverine captured in a sheet steel oil drum escaped by chewing through at the point of the bung hole (drain hole) at the bottom---where the metal is fortified with an additional steel ring. Trappers also report cases of wolverines breaking the metal chains anchoring leg hold traps to trees. No, everyone is NOT in agreement about the hyena! Then, what of those 2200lb polar bears? Come on, hyena researchers, do some traveling, don't be stuck in Africa!

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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well this will be my last post, as jasper said this is just a battle that cant be won. people cant open there eyes to see that it isnt the pitbull that is dangerous, it is the pitbull owned by a dangerous person that is dangerous, just as is a gun or a knife,these are not dangerous all by themselves, only when in the hands of a dangerous person. firedragons has listed some true facts along with ALOT of lies to deceive you all and shape your opinions based on his own personal beliefs. i beg of you all, to check out these subjects for yourselves, and create your own opinions based on more then just me or firedragons.i dont think he knows hes lying, i just think he honestly believes his own statements, which is the mark of a genius, or a complete fool.i already know the answer to this, but i refuse to continue these insults that only feed his fire.the more i try to open his mind, the more he closes it. i feel sorry for you firedragons, some people try to better themselves and prosper, others try to push there will upon this world, and live in never ending conflict. i hope someday you learn to keep on learning. dont shut this world out, embrace it, and it will embrace you. good luck to all.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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Dude, there were many lies told here, but all by you. For example, there are only a few places in the USA that has wolves in captivity and they must be registered and for scientific purposes because wolves are protected (even the wolves that can be hunted in Alaska are protected). He said wolves rarely injure each other when they fight...everyone knows that wolves kill themselves fighting. It's the number one reason for their death. You believe in myths and this makes you ignorant. You lie to support these myths and mislead ... this makes you stupid. Sorry dude, I have no respect for that behavior. You compare dogs with guns. Well, not all dogs are banned idiot! There are more than 100 million guns in the USA, but some are banned to the public. For example, unless you have a license, you can't have a liquid cooled 50cal automatic rifle. But you can have shot guns, rifles, and handguns...there are exceptions to that, but basically it's OK. I am not promoting the idea that DOGS should be banned. I have a few myself. I am just saying that a large dog should not be around children. Pit bulls should NEVER be around children. That's a matter of law and opinion. The initial question was about PSI and the wolf vs the pit. Now, there is NO doubt about this question....the wolf is MUCH larger in terms of size and PSI bite force!!! Only and idiot continues saying the pit has stronger jaws. Hey, don't feel sorry for me dude. I am not the one that's a moron. You are a little crazy. You are wrong and you persist without any type of valid argument!!! And "Indian" ... when I say most agree the hyena has the hardest bite of any mammal, I am not referring to YOU dude. I am referring to scientist. You obviously are not a scientist. I have never read any other source that said there was a mammal with a stronger bite...if you have read a source, supply one!!! You sound a lot like ... nickname. Cite your source, dude! From the University of CA: "Data from CT scans of the skull and jaws of Crocuta provide important information that complements growth studies. Bite strength and feeding behavior are affected by growth, which is important to young Crocuta making the transition to adulthood. The jaws of adult Crocuta are designed to withstand the forces produced when the animal employs the killing bite with the canines and the cracking of bones with the premolars. Crocuta dentaries are thickened with compact bone below and behind the premolars. This morphology acts as a buttress against bending during unilateral biting of tough foods such as bone." http://digimorph.org/specimens/Crocuta_crocuta/ Q: Is it true that they're just scavengers? A: No. Spotted hyenas kill their own prey more often than they scavenge. Favorite prey include wildebeests and zebras. But most carnivores, hyenas included, will scavenge when they get a chance. Q: I've heard hyenas follow lions around and live off their kills. A: It's more often the other way around. Lions often take over hyenas' kills; the males will walk right into a clan of feeding hyenas and take the carcass from them. Hyenas will steal kills from lionesses if no male lions are around and they badly outnumber the lionesses. Spotted Hyena kills and eats a Rock Python At 7.30 this morning we were on the plain to the west of Masira Hill. We were watching a Wahlberg's Eagle perched in a Balanites Tree when I noticed a spotted hyena struggling in the grass with something. We drove up to it and, as we got there, saw the hyena bite through a big python's spine. The snake immediately stopped struggling. I estimated the python to be between two and three metres long. The hyena grabbed the snake in its jaws about half way down the body and carried it away a few meters from us. The hyena was very tired and slowly began to eat the python, starting at the bite. We watched amazed for half an hour and left the hyena still eating the python. Wilfred Lembris Rensberger, J. M. (in press). Functional differentiation of the enamel microstructure in the canine of the spotted hyena, Crocuta crocuta. Scanning Microscopy. The University of Florida, , Florida State University and the National Geographic Society have sponsored studies on animal bite force. YOu can try to speak with Kent Vliet and reach him through 352 392 3054.

Answer by Blackfoot
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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Firedragons you are a tireless dogmatic. Look at your original post. You said "everyone" is in agreement about hyena bite being most powerful. After I posted comments, you then said "most" agree. WHICH scientists are you speaking of? Just the ones who studied hyenas and found their jaws are indeed powerful. I have searched the web, and found none of these hyena researchers testing other species. They started with an assumption and "proved" it by circular reasoning. I have seen no documented references from you, because you haven't mentioned any. You are putting words in the scientists mouths. Let me hear from those who have tested wolverine and Kodiak bear bites. You have a world view in which you picked a favorite, and by God you're going to stick with that no matter what. I know grizzlies have been studied but I never saw ANY study measuring their bites and wolverine jaws ("crushes bones like straw") have been compared to hyena in power as far as I can see the issue is open to dispute and you have not convinced me. How about the rest of you---do you notice how stubborn this fellow is? If he becomes a meteorologist he'll say, "wet streets cause rain!" I choose to stay open minded as to bite force of these species and I am convinced he also has underrated the pit bull.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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Let me explain English to you a little since you seem to have some difficulty. "Everyone" is not a categorical statement. It is often used in context of recognition. In other words, EVERYONE in the scientific community seems to agree here. If you know exceptions, post them along with your citations!! I don't include you in this statement because you are not a scientist and you seem to barely comprehend some of this. Bears can bite hard, it's true but I have already stated how the bite is determined by estimation and also by measurement. Haha! I have cited institutions that test bite power and the number. Either you are too stupid to read the post completely, or you are such a loser that your mind doesn't pick it up .... at any rate, talk is cheap .. obviously from listening to you. For those that feel the debate is over, it is really. You haven't presented anything on your behalf that supports your view except some "armchair" logic. You create your own arguments and then you break them down. You also take up issues that aren't important. I have explained the term "everyone" so that you might learn a little. I know you are a native speaker, but your grasp of the language seems week. You are also very stupid ... communication allows for explaination and defining meanings. Now, hopefully you understand. I know you make up your arguments for and against pit bulls ... haha! Loser. I guess you are trying to give some arguments, none of which are done well. Again, there is one university that is testing bite force by sponsor. I have cited this. As for the size of the jaws...get over it dude. Pits are small dogs. Look at mastiffs or rots...they have MUCH bigger jaws.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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These are the measurements, from the most powerful down. They have measured many mammals, dogs, reptiles and so on... Now ... CITE a source, not from your "mind" that tells a different story from the same bag of beans. In other words, DIRECTLY compares two or three mammals with the SPOTTED hyena the loser. Now, you can't get your information from bath room walls, voices speaking to you .... in your mind and so on. You must find a site that lists the Hyena (Spotted only) second to another mammal. Alligators are not mammals, just for your information. Here's the webpage... http://www.napa.ufl.edu/digest/stories/chomper0903.html Research: Alligator is animal kingdom champion chomper The lion has its roar, the cheetah its speed. But the beast with the most powerful bite? The alligator. So say three researchers who recently completed a study measuring the force alligators exert when they clamp down their toothy jaws. American alligators, known scientifically as Alligator mississippiensis, bite harder than any other member of the animal kingdom yet studied, including lions, hyenas, some species of sharks and wolves, not to mention people, said Kent Vliet, a University of Florida zoologist. In fact, their chomp may even be mightier than some species among history�s most-celebrated masticators, the dinosaurs, he said. �Alligators do these excruciatingly powerful bites,� he said. �They really just lay into it. You can see their neck muscles flex.� Vliet is an author of a paper about alligators� biting prowess that appeared last month in the Journal of Zoology of London. The two others are Gregory Erickson, a professor of anatomy and vertebrate paleobiology at Florida State University in Tallahassee, and Kristopher Lappin, a biologist at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff. To test the gators� bites, the scientists built �bite bars� � metal bars resembling large tuning forks. The bars, which were covered in leather to prevent damage to the alligators� teeth, contained strain gauges that measure force. The researchers presented the bars, which were of varying length and thickness for different sized alligators, to more than 40 captive gators ranging from about 1 foot to over 12 feet at an alligator farm. The gators did the rest. �The hardest part of the work was getting the bite bar back from them, because they�d often hold onto it for 20 minutes, and it is delicate equipment,� Vliet said. �We didn�t really want them walking off with it.� Not surprisingly, the bigger the alligator, the harder the bite. The largest, a nearly 12 1/2 -foot behemoth weighing 665 pounds named Hercules, bit down with a more than a ton of force � 2,125 pounds, to be exact, or nearly as much force as the weight of a small sedan. That�s more forceful than all living animals measured, Vliet said. The lion, for example, has a bite force of about 940 pounds, slightly less than the hyena�s roughly 1,000 pounds. The only shark tested, the dusky shark, achieves about 330 pounds, while a common dog, the Labrador, bites at a mere 125 pounds or so. Anyone ever jawed by a toddler might judge the strength of the human bite force to be near infinite. But people bite at a maximum force of about 170 pounds, just one-thirteenth the strength of a large gator. Vliet said Tyrannosaurus rex may have bitten with a force of some 3,300 pounds. However, smaller theropod dinosaurs, or bipedal carnivorous dinosaurs, may have bitten with a force of no more than 450 pounds.

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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my god fire, how short was the bus you rode to school? you are an wanna be.. as i said many times.. about the ONLY thing you have posted correctly concerns the force of a hyena's jaws.. BTW i have probably been working with animals since you were nursing on your momma's breast.. so i will leave the wanna be stuff to you.. ok we know you are clueless concerning everything i mentioned before.. that is a given, based on YOUR posts.. also nick and i are NOT the same person nor do i have a clue who he/she is.. now to throw a wrench in your machine, the lion does not have the most powerful jaws of the big cats, nor does the tiger.. it is the jaguar that comes in first, second only to the spotted hyena..as far as mammals go at least.. now granted this is not 100%gospel, but it is the general thought of almost every person working or researching anything in the animal fields.. and only 3 hyena species are considered powerful biters.. also there have been several studies done with several croc subspecies that disprove the alligator theory.. yet none have been conclusive.. and as far as wolves killing each other fighting among themselves, you don't know much about wolves do you? the most common "fights" among pack mates are merely threat displays.. and almost NEVER cause anything more than a superficial injury.. wolves almost NEVER kill each other in one on one fights..in the overwhelming majority of wolf on wolf deaths, the death resulted from an attack of several pack memebers.. also the reason wolf deaths between pack mates is rare, is because they are wild animals.. in almost every pack oriented animal(lion prides,wolf packs ,baboon troops) fights to the death are quite rare when viewed as one on one fights.. this is for several main reasons, but the main reasons are simple dominance, and prevention of injury.. an injured wolf does not help in the hunt.. thus the reason for the threat display types of fights.. same goes for lion etc.. while in most cases the injured animal does still travel and eat off the pack, it is not the position either the animal nor the pack prefers.. i'm not sure why you lie so much, maybe some mental instability you have, the need to be right all the time.. who knows.. but ANYONE with ANY knowledge on ANY of the subjects can see thru your BS.. my guess is that you can't grasp that.. btw thank you to the people that complimented me..contrary to fire's whinings, i have been working with domestic and exotic animals for many many years..unlike fire(i might add). i would say lets have a quiz for fire dragon but he would just go look up the answers and then act like he knew it all along.. lol hey fire what happens if you breed a liger and a tigon? super sized babies? dwarves,can't be done, they don't exist,what? have fun looking it up..lol

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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Tigercat, I don't think you fool anyone. First of all, what you asked is childish and something that demonstrates you don't know anything about dogs, dog fighting, or Japan. You are a fool. Haha! Loser! I doubt if there are actually many posters on this page besides yourself and your screen names because people would become outraged at your stupidity. As for wolves and killing each other, that's the number or two cause of death among wolves. I have already posted this information and where it can be found. You are so stupid! The federal government keeps track of what kills wolves. It's not a surprise. You are just stupid. The lion's jaws are much stranger than the little jag!! You are an idiot! The wolf can bite harder that a jag! Anyway, I have posted this and my citations. You don't learn much either, do you?

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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How could I correct every fallacious statement on this page? I couldn't. But I will say this, dogs are wolves! Wolves that have had their evolution directed by man in specific ways to better suit them to specific tasks. The greyhound IS faster than the wolf, the bloodhound DOES have a better nose than the wolf and the pyreneese IS better at guarding flocks of sheep then wolves would be. No one denies this. But for some reason when it comes to fighting I guess you all think man just made heaps of blunders through history and in breeding for superior fighting dogs they somehow degraded the fighting ability of the animals they were breeding. Quite uncharacteristic I must say, rather strange indeed. Ofcourse a pitbull will beat a wolf in a fight, suggesting otherwise is like suggesting a pitbull will be more successful trying to survive in the alaskan wilderness than a wolf would be Ofcourse it would not, it has given up a plethora of survival traits in favour of traits to make it a better fighter. Same goes for all the breeds with combative histories. The pitbull isn't the only breed that will beat a wolf in a fight. The wolf would probably be ranked somewhere like 26th or something. It would be ranked 1st in the category nature 'bred' it for, which is survival in the environment it adapted to. Its been fun ending this discussion, good night

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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How could I correct every fallacious statement on this page? I couldn't. But I will say this, dogs are wolves! Wolves that have had their evolution directed by man in specific ways to better suit them to specific tasks. The greyhound IS faster than the wolf, the bloodhound DOES have a better nose than the wolf and the pyreneese IS better at guarding flocks of sheep then wolves would be. No one denies this. But for some reason when it comes to fighting I guess you all think man just made heaps of blunders through history and in breeding for superior fighting dogs they somehow degraded the fighting ability of the animals they were breeding. Quite uncharacteristic I must say, rather strange indeed. Ofcourse a pitbull will beat a wolf in a fight, suggesting otherwise is like suggesting a pitbull will be more successful trying to survive in the alaskan wilderness than a wolf would be Ofcourse it would not, it has given up a plethora of survival traits in favour of traits to make it a better fighter. Same goes for all the breeds with combative histories. The pitbull isn't the only breed that will beat a wolf in a fight. The wolf would probably be ranked somewhere like 26th or something. It would be ranked 1st in the category nature 'bred' it for, which is survival in the environment it adapted to. Its been fun ending this discussion, good night

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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oh i see, you couldn't answer the simple question... LOL there is a shocker.. well you have just proven once again that you are an idiot when it comes to animal knowledge.. btw i am not any other screen names on here.. but nice try, i guess it is hard for you to see that many others can see through your bs.. i find it funny that you can't answer simple questions about subjects you debate... now lets get to your latest stupid points... let's see the first part was merely a childish attempt to avoid a simple question, so we will skip that. "As for wolves and killing each other, that's the number or two cause of death among wolves. I have already posted this information and where it can be found. You are so stupid! The federal government keeps track of what kills wolves. It's not a surprise" again your lack of knowledge shines through.. wolf on wolf death is common, wolf on wolf death in the pack is uncommon.. outside of the pack, as i have said many times, it is NOT, the overwhelming majority of the time,one on one fights.. it is several members of a pack attacking a lone stray wolf, a wolf from another pack that has invaded their territiory, etc... maybe somewhere in your feeble mind you will grasp that this time. "The lion's jaws are much stranger than the little jag!! You are an idiot! The wolf can bite harder that a jag! Anyway, I have posted this and my citations." it must be annoying having to wear that helmet all the time.. lol you are making this TOO EASY.. your own words prove that you know nothing about animals.. umm hey genius(lol) look up what you just said .. then come back and be an adult and admit you were wrong.. because every person, in all the animal fields, just hurt themselves laughing at your statement.. you are a wanna be in the purest form...even wolves are laughing at you.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/7/2004
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As I mentioned before, Wolves kill dogs regularly ONE ONE ONE. Dogs can't kill wolves, or there are NO REPORTED incidences. I have the number to call in WI, AK, and MN. It's easy to verify this and also get a laugh from the wilf life people when you tell them you think pit bulls are the killer in the fight! Here is an article, and NOTE the dogs were killed one on one!!! http://www.wolfology.com/id72.htm Abstract Compiling data from all complaints of wolf interactions with dogs within Minnesota's wolf range between 1979 and 1987, the authors conclude that interspecific aggression alone may not explain wolf attacks on dogs, and that in some cases wolves view dogs as prey. This study is deemed important as wolf depredation on pets can cause anti-wolf feeling in recovery areas. Wolves (Canis lupus) are the progenitors of dogs (C. familiaris), and the 2 species interbreed. They also fight with one another, and wolves are known to eat dogs, but such interactions are mentioned only briefly in scientific literature. In the United States out of Alaska, the wolf exists only in Minnesota...and in parts of northern Wisconsin, Michigan, northwestern Montana, and possibly Idaho....Recovery plans for the eastern timber wolf, Northern Rocky Mountain wolf, and Mexican wolf identify other areas of the United States for potential reintroduction.... ....A major issue in public acceptance of wolves is the potential for depredation on domestic animals. Current information on wolf interactions with domestic animals in North America is scarce, and information on the specific problem of depredations on dogs is especially rare. We report on the nature and extent of wolf-dog interactions in Minnesota, based on investigations of complaints received by personnel of the federal government dealing with wolf-depredation control. Our findings may indicate the wolf-dog interactions that can be expected in other recovery areas. STUDY AREA AND METHODS A general description of the 59,000-square km. wolf range in Minnesota is provided in Bailey (1978). With larger towns excluded, the area includes about 68,000 households whose dogs migh be exposed to wolves. Most of the wolf range is rural, including many small communities and single residences. Complaints of wolf interactions with domestic animals were received by our office from the public during 1979-1987. We field checked all complaints as soon as possible, normally within 24-48 hours, and verified whether wolves had killed or wounded [one or more] dogs. Identification of wolf-inflicted damage was based on (1) size and location of bite marks on dogs; (2) identification of wolf tracks, droppings, or other wolf sign in the immediate vicinity of attacks; and (3) observations related by dog owners. RESULTS AND DISCUSSION From 1979 through 1987 we received 47 complaints of wolf-dog interactions (8% of all wolf-domestic animal complaints received). In 19 (40%) of the events, the owner had merely expressed concern about the safety of dogs, an encounter had occurred without damage, or damage had occurred, but we determined that wolves were not responsible. In 28 (60%) instances, we verified that wolves had wounded or killed dogs. In total, owners claimed that 54 dogs were wounded, killed, or missing. Our investigations confirmed that wolves had killed at least 24 dogs and wounded another 10. These figures indicate the minimal extent of wolf-dog conflicts, because it is not likely that all attacks on dogs were reported. Wolves killed dogs during every year of our study, with 1-8 complaints received annually, and 1-6 verified reports. The year of highest depredations was 1984 when 20 dogs were reported killed, wounded, or missing, and 9 were confirmed killed or wounded.... ....Only 4 of 47 complaints of wolf-dog interactions in Minnesota were associated with concurrent complaints of depredations on livestock. Tompa (1983) reported comparable figures from Alberta. Therefore, wolves showed no strong inclination to attack dogs at residences near where they were already preying on livestock. Dogs were the only domestic animals available at many depredation sites. Generally, rural residences and those at the edge of small communities in areas of high wolf populations seemed most likely to experience problems. Although depredation on livestock has a predictable seasonal pattern, occurring primarily between May and October, no seasonal pattern was evident for depredations on dogs....Tompa (1983) reported that all 13 attacks on 29 dogs in a 3-year period in Alberta occurred between October and March; wolves were closer to human settlements during that period of the year because of shifts in distribution of wild prey. Several breeds of dogs were killed, ranging in size from a miniature poodle to a Norwegian elkhound. Based on our investigations and interviews with dog owners, we believe that small- to medium-size dogs, which may be particularly excitable and vocal, are more likely to provoke attack by wolves. No selection for sex was apparent. Of 19 dog carcasses we examined, 14 were partially or fully eaten.... While preying on dogs, wolves displayed a lack of fear of humans and buildings that is otherwise unknown except when they are diseased, disabled, or preying on deer. In several incidents investigated, wolves evidently focused their attention on dogs so intently that they were almost oblivious to buildings and humans. Most wolf attacks on dogs, including the fatal ones, occurred in the property owner's yard and, with only 2 exceptions, within 100 m. of the owner's house. In 1 case, a wolf attacked a dog near the doorstep and would not retreat until beaten with a shovel. This incident occurred after the owner had recently lost another dog, and neighbors had allegedly lost 2 dogs. Four fatal interactions involved dogs chained to a residence or a doghouse. In those instances, the dog's collar was broken and the dog was carried away. In 1 case the doghouse was dragged into the adjacent woods with the dog carcass. Several complaints were clustered in time and space. This finding suggests that individual wolves or packs were seeking dogs rather than encountering them at random. The most extreme example was the prolonged episode at Isabella where we received reports that dogs were killed or wounded from June through September 1984. In that instance, the problem seemed to have been caused by a single wolf pack with a rendezvous site 6.5 km from town. In at least 2 other cases, a wolf or wolves attacked several dogs in the same community within a period of a few days. CONCLUSION Wolf depredation on dogs was not a common problem; only a small fraction of the 68,000 potential households that may have possessed dogs were affected. Nonetheless, the problem of wolves attacking dogs can be substantial locally and can produce anti-wolf reaction that could hamper recovery of wolf populations....Some attacks on Minnesota dogs were covered by the news media, which amplified public reaction. The persistence of some wolves in seeking dogs, prolonged attacks locally, and the fact that 75% of the carcasses found were fed upon suggested that interspecific aggression alone may not explain why wolves kill dogs. Conceivably, dogs may be perceived as prey and deliberately hunted in some instances....

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/7/2004
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I doubt anyone could argue against wolves killing peoples cocker spaniels. Its kind of irrelevent to the discussion, kind of really irrelevent. No wolves are killed by dogs? Nay, have never been killed by dogs ever? Lol, you simply must be kidding. Has it ever occurred to you that people aren't reporting their dead wolves? Think about it. I happen to know of dogs that have killed wolves. I know of a bandog in south africa that killed a 150lbs leopard for christs sake, no dog has ever killed a wolf... what a joke. The fact remains that pitbulls are wolves that have been specifically modified for fighting, you can't escape this truth. Your argument is akin to saying a stock standard ford will beat a ford with a supercharged turbo v8 installed in a drag race. In other words its a non-starter. I'm not a pitbull fan, I just have a firm grip on reality where you don't.

Answer by blackbeard
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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last month i saw a national geog programme about african wild dogs; a few of these happened to cross a pack of hynaeas; the hynaeas immediately went for the african wild dog cubs; the result was unbelievable; the 35-40 lb dogs very easily drove of the 180lbs+ hynaeas; the dogs could quite easily have out-run the hynaes but they wanted to teach them a lesson which they did; and one of the females dogs repeatedly went behind and again and again nipped the culprit hynae'sbutt an drove it off; the commentator mentioned that even lionesses don't dare to mix it with a pack of african wild dogs; we are talking of a hyneae which is 180lbs+; has the strongest jaws in the mammal world; which can drive lionesses and leopards from their kills deferring to the african wild dog; and the reason was simple; the dogs were just too quick; the massive jaws of the hynaea were no match for the speed and skill of the dogs; and i'mpretty sure that in a 1 on 1 an african wild dog would be able to hold its own agains the hynaea; and as for the pit bull; it would probably last about 5 minutes against the african wild dog; by then game or not it would be bleeding all over and simply collapse from loss of blood; and the delicate looking african wild dog would not have a single scratch on it;

Answer by Firedragons3
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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Hey, for you losers out there ... or just one loser writing under the different names ... I have posted the number of the Wildlife and Game people. They keep careful records, as required by law on wolves. No dogs have been able to kill wolves. I also posted the article about the large poodle whipping the ass of the pit bull. This is pretty clear. The pit bull certainly isn't invincible and he can be beaten by a larger animal even if he's a great pit bull. There's a really stupid loser on this page, obviously he has personal problems with the world and others. He never posts sites that are reputable or even that support his argument. It's a fantasy to believe that a pit bull is anything more than a bad natured dog that has caused many injuries among CHILDREN. Why do you think 70percent of the deaths are among children? Adults can easily kick a pit's ass. I have posted information about this. I have posted the phone number to the dog fighting center in Japan. They breed these dogs to be winners and not just to be small and tough. Most people that own pits are poor and can't afford to feed a larger dog. Most are low lifes too.

Answer by PROOF
Submitted on 5/8/2004
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o.k. why did you edit every thing good out of the tosa dog newletter,that the editor said about the pitbull.you went to alot of trouble to take it all out!he conculded that the toughest fighting dog in the world is 60-70lb pitbull or a 130lb. tosa.he said that avistor to taiwan asks about tosas and is told the pitbulls have killed them off.he says that a game bred seasoned pit bull should be able to hold its own against almost any tosa,he says in the USA pitbulls have almost always won matches with thec tosa.why did you go to so much trouble just to l;eave all of this out?i think we all see want kind point YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE. YOU JUST DO NOT LIKE PITBULLS WELL THATS YOUR PROBLEM!WE HAVE ENTIRE TOSA EDITORS REPRINT ON THE BULLMASTIFF LINK,FOR ANYBODY TO READ!

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/9/2004
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Idiot!! It wasn't edited. It said that Tosas win 90% of the time in Japan, but pit in the US win against Tosa, but are only fighting house pets (that are runts of the litter. A small Tosa is BIGGER than a large pit, for the most part. FIGHTING DOGS AND THE WORLD'S TOUGHEST BREED OF DOG MIXED MATCHED DOG FIGHTS. WHICH IS THE TOUGHEST BREED? by Mr. Jan Libourel, Editor of HANDGUNS MAGAZINE and Editor of TOSA Newsletter In issue #17 of FILATALK MAGAZINE, the claim appeared that the most deadly fighting dog in the world was a 30 pound Pit Bull Terrier. It was also stated that smaller Pit Bull dogs can get underneath a larger opponent and rip out its throat in short order. The claim was made that such a dog could kill "even the most powerful Fila". Right: Gabriel, a Fila Brasileiro at 215 lbs owned by Shoo-its Mountain Filas This seems most improbable. Few would probably disagree with the claim that pound for-pound the American Pit Bull Terrier is the finest fighting dog in the world. Moreover, the smaller Pits Bull are usually the gamest and the most talented. Thus, one of these little dogs can often defeat a substantially larger dog, especially if the other dog is not a Pit Bull. However, it should be noted that serious dog fighters are very careful to closely match weights in the most intensely contested matches. A difference of only a few pounds can count a lot in a dog fight. Moreover, the claim that a smaller dog has a great advantage by being able to get to the throat more readily becomes very silly on close examination. (Editors Tosa on right) By that logic, a Jack Russell Terrier should be able to defeat the small Pit Bull, and a Chihuahua should be able to kill the Jack Russell, thus establishing the Chihuahua as the most formidable dog of all! In point of fact, if a 30 pound Pit Bull went against a huge Fila like Gabriel, Jetson, Chaka, or Reno, the larger dog would crush the life out of the smaller dog long before the superior gameness or athletic ability of the Pit Bull came into play. Assuming the small Pit Bull did get a throat hold, it would most likely get nothing more than a mouthful of dewlap. It is commonly held that the only two real fighting dogs in the world are the American Pit Bull Terrier and the Japanese Tosa. I have heard it suggested that the ultra-rare Majorcan Presa (aka Ca de Bou) might also qualify. The Korean Jindo (looks like an Akita) is also reputed to be a very tough customer. Middle Asian Ovcharkas are also reported to be used for fighting in their homeland and may possess some talent. Mixed matches between Pit Bulls and Tosas have produced mixed results. In Japan, one informant states, the Tosas defeat the Pit Bulls about 90 percent of the time. In such matches in the United States, the Pit Bulls have, with few exceptions, been victorious. However, such encounters typically involve Pit Bulls that are seasoned fighting dogs pitted against Tosas that have been little more than house pets. Most Tosa breeders will have a story about how a dog from their bloodlines has killed or maimed a Pit Bull. It should be pointed out that there is a good deal of variation in the size and quality among both Tosas and Pit Bulls, the latter breed having suffered from the scourge of puppy mill breeding. In the case of a 140 pound Tosa of the finest East Japan fighting bloodlines against a 40 pound Pit Bull of indifferent breeding, I would have little doubt about the outcome. THIS IS WORD FOR WORD, IDIOT! AS FOR TAIWAN, THAT WAS one PERSON AND THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT'S TRUE. PITS COST 1/10TH AS MUCH AS TOSA. THE ARTICLE WAS CLEAR THAT A TOSA COULD EASILY BEAT A PIT AND DOES. TAIWAN IS LIKE THE usa. THEY CAN'T AFFORD TOSAS Being "killed off" didn't mean they were defeated. The dog fighter often fight strays and can't afford Tosas. They don't really have Tosa's in Taiwan ... they are mixed and much smaller. "What about the Tosas in the United States? We believe that there are between 80 to 100 Tosas in North America. It all began when Jack Palace, an American actor, traveled to Kochi, Japan, to film a television program for the ABC Network. Upon seeing a Tosa for the very first time, he immediately began to search for Tosas asking the then Governor of Kochi, what he had to do to obtain a Tosa puppy. Not having Tosas available, the governor approached the Hirose family which eventually provided Palace with two puppies, one off which, the female, was named Ms. Kochi. Palace returned to his ranch with the puppies and successfully bred Tosas for approximately six years until his divorce, when most of the dogs were then sold. Getting back to Tosas in general; Mr. Hirose has indicated that if you see an American dog magazine there are Tosas from Korea and Taiwan, not from Japan, and sometimes the quality is questionable. I'm not saying these are not full bred Tosas because they do have pedigrees, simply that the quality is not there. In America there is a mixture of dogs of poor quality and others of excellent quality. Unfortunately the American Kennel Club does not recognize the Japanese Tosa-Inu and there isn't a forum of national magnitude which could provide the much needed exposure highlighting the virtues of the breed. We would like for Americans to see the real Tosa by way of a Japanese Tosa-Ken fighting dog and be assured that they have access to an authentic Japanese breed standard."http://www.shaku1.com/tosa2.htm AGain, MOST real pit bull fighters are poor and cannot afford the larger and more expensive animals!!! "Pit Bulls Fighting Return to index of stories... INVESTIGATORS LOOKING FOR A BAR FIGHT SUSPECT FOUND DOGS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN USED FOR FIGHTING. BATON ROUGE POLICE DISCOVERED 18 PIT BULLS CHAINED TO POLES IN THE BACKYARD AT 26-59 BAY-LIS STREET. ANIMAL CONTROL OFFICERS SAY IT IS A CLASSIC CASE OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. THEY SAY THE DOGS DIDN'T HAVE WATER OR SHELTER FROM THE SUN AND THE CHAINS WERE MUCH TOO HEAVY. it's absolutely criminal , not only is it criminal in a dog fighting sense, it's a felony to fight pit bulls or any dog in louisiana, but it's also cruel. OFFICERS BOOKED 49 YEAR OLD BOBBY WELLS ON 18 COUNTS OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. 34 YEAR OLD KREGLAN D. GAINES, IS STILL ON THE LOOSE. IF YOU CAN HELP POLICE FIND GAINES, CALL CRIMESTOPPERS AT 3-4-4---S-T-O-P.THAT'S 3-4-4---7-8-6-7." http://www.2theadvocate.com/scripts/062403/ten.htm#85Pit_Bulls_Fighting And by the way...wolves are Canis lupus - this is the scientific term. Canis is the genus, lupus is the species. DOGS are Canis familiaris ..dogs and wolves are NOT the same species. One of the definitions of speciation under natural condition is that no interbreeding happens between species. It is the absence of interbreeding that prevents gene migration and that therefore preserves morphological differences. (12) Absence of interbreeding can be due to geographical barrier, behavioral difference and thus mating preference, or even morphological difference that inhibits mating. Therefore, although we could by human intervention, dogs do not usually mate with wolves under natural condition. 2000 Sep 15, In Italy the Mafia was reported to be engaged in a $500 million business of illegal dog fighting. An estimated 5,000 dogs died annually from the fighting. http://www.eleggua.com/History/2000E.html

Answer by the atlas of dog-breeds
Submitted on 5/9/2004
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american pit bull terrier portrait-the pit bull immediately strikes one as being a dog of power,passion,and undying willingness.the brick like head,which is especially broad between the cheeks [to house the powerful jaws]is carried upon a thickly muscled,well defined neck.the neck runs into a deep,thick,well-sprung chest that bursts with raw dynamism sure affection, and pure game.The length of the dog exeeds slightly the height of between 18-22 inches.Weight is varied, even among dogs of the same height;weight can be between 30-80 lbs being common.The coat short,glossy,nad stiff to the touch.All colors are acceptable, with or without markings.The ears set high on the skull can be cropped or uncropped; docked tails,though they occur, are not accepted by the UKC. Development from the bull and terrier types of yesterday, the American pit bull terrier comes from an undeniable history of pit fighting.THE BREEDS TENACITY AND ACCOMPANYING STRENGTH ARE UNPARALLELED IN THE CANINE WORLD. As rich and captivating as the breed'shistory is, the pit bull's future is more worthy of commentary. The APBT, as registered by the Ukc,is an individual breed of dog and doesn't rfer to just any ill-breed, mindless warrior-type mongrel.In America of times unfortunately gone by,the pitbull was a much loved,much trusted worthy companion.The loveless unworthies who have capitalized on the breeds abilities for illegal dogfighting actitives or other comparable lowlife goings-on are chiefly reponsible for the banning and witchhunting that have begun sweeping the U.S. the media, however , shouldn't go unscathed, for it is also responsbile, for escalating isolated incidences in an unrelenting and attention-getting way.The pitbull'sfuture has been perhaps irreparably undone and everyone is is to blame except the dog iself. The "Little rascal" is to set on pleasing his owner, and ironically this is the root of his own undoing.Accompanying this need to please are remarkble abilities of all kinds. Pitbulls excel in practically every cannie task: herding,guarding,hunting,policing,and ratting. Character: That sly smile,those detemind eyes, that unwaning pleasure to please, the more quality and characteristics of the APBT have evoked more human emotional,rational,and irrational response than any other breed that exists today.bY no means are these dogs people-haters or people-eaters:their natural aggressive tendecies aer toward other dogs and animals, not people. These are truly qualily companions for quality owners-only!

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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This is to the simple idiot that said wolves and dogs are a different species. The domestic dogs scientific name is canis lupus familiaris. Dogs and wolves are the same species. Some domestic dogs are actually closer related to wolves than they are other domestic dogs. Also its incomprehensibly stupid to say pitbulls are just 'mean dogs'. They have been specifically bred to be the ultimate fighting dog, not only must you not know your history you must be unable to fathom the concept of history to say something as simple minded as pitbulls are just 'mean dogs'. The pitbulls ancestry has been focussed on combat ever since its ancestors branched from the wolves, first it was dogs of war, which were bred into dogs of the arena, which were later used in the creation of bull baiting dogs, which were later crossed with terriers to create dog-fighting dogs. All the while only the best fighters have been selected to breed, this being a strict process, naturally each generation improving in fighting ability to become more and more refined towards specialising in that area. It is so disrespectful to ignore this history or disregard it as insignificant. If you understood evolution you would understand that this is the only necessarry point to take into account. With this knowledge you can conclude that it is a given that the pitbull is superior to the wolf in fighting ability. Its that simple. I didn't answer the original question because it can't be answered. Mammals bite as hard as they want, there would be limits to how hard they can bite but you can never be sure you are getting the full force when measuring the bite of a mammal.

Answer by Ken
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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The wolf would win and i agree with FiredDragons. Though, this makes no sense. No one is really answering this question. Most of the people are ridiculing the other people who took time out of their own day to make up this answer. I am not sure who has the most pis i would say that the wolf would though. The wolf is a wild animal. The type of dog is not on trial here. I know an akita can take down a pit bull or a Stafforshire Terrier though, i also know a Stafforshire terrier in which can take the fight into with the Akita. It all depends on the master and the dogs personallity. It really doesnt matter about the type of Dog. A Great Dane. The second largest Dog breed out there would lose to a Doberman (unless trained properly) for the fact that a Doberman is bred to take in and learn how to fight unlike the Great Dane is too much of a lovable Dog to do some real damage. The wolf would most likely win in a fight against a Pit Bull for the fact that the Pit Bull relies on the human to feed and shelter it and the wolf doesnt. Though, if the wolf was blind...and hadt hree legs then the pit bull would have a chance. It really matters on the dog...Not the Breed. though the question submitted by this...Christian person, is what has more psi not who could win in a fight. though the fact remains. There is no way to tell what has more psi unless looking at certain bite marks on the victim or whatever person. Want to see some really nasty pictures of what two Dobermans did to a man who tried to break into there home? Go to Yahoo.com click images and type in Dobermans, look for the cut up man, thats what they did to the man. O well, i think that the wolf has more psi than the Stafforshire Terrier. FireDragons is right.

Answer by Everything
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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There are now two issues in the discussion: 1: Who has the most PSI? Answer: The wolf, by a large margin. 1500 PSI on average with larger wolves hitting even higher numbers. Those 2000+ psi numbers for pit bulls are beyond stupid. In fact, it is listed as a gross myth on almost any pit bull FAQ you could care to read. 2: What about Wolf vs. Pit Bull? Firstly, Wolves are no more dogs than chimps are humans. While wolves may look like dogs, they are vastly superior in all physical ways. The pit bull is a commonly used fighting dog because of its tenacity and easy upkeep. Wolves are absent in the ring because of these factors: -Try finding a wolf in the inner city, retard. -Owning them is a crime in and of itself, even without fighting them. -Wolves do not develop loyalty to their master. If you act like their superior, but show signs of weakness, they will kill you without a second thought. With that out of the way, a few erroneous claims by pit bull lovers need to be addressed. No, no dog can possibly be used to kill a wolf in a one on one fight. Never has happened and never will (unless we genetically engineer those monster dogs from the hulk movie). No, there isn't a dog in the world with more stamina than wolves. I'm astonished at the level of worship you pit bull owners have for your pets. A wolf can chase down prey for miles upon miles and can outrun elk and deer with ease. Greyhounds run fast but are still bred from that same "dog" gene pool that will always sacrifice physical ability for loyalty and trainability. Any fact sheet on wolves should let you know that wolves are, essentially, eternally feral, super dogs. Their sense are more attuned and their bones and muscles are much more dense and conditioned from birth to death. For the record: A large wolf, hungry and angry, would waste no time in ripping a pit bull apart as a snack. Yes, Mike Tyson is tough, but he wouldn't last long against a lowland mountain gorilla.

Answer by hmmmmmmmm
Submitted on 5/10/2004
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first of all this is the real world, not animal planet. dog fighting is bigger in the country then in the inner city retard. second you can breed wolves to dogs, not chimps and humans. you can also legally own a dog up to 90% wolf, pitbulls are more illegal then wolves in some parts. there are dogs bred to kill wolves.no wolves do not chase down prey for miles and miles, they sneak up as close as possible before making a short mad dash. who do you think knows more about pitbulls? owners or non-owners? so how do you figure youre going to come on here and tell pitbull owners about pitbulls. you are as nieve as firedragons or you are firdragons, either way YOU DONT KNOW,SO DONT ACT LIKE YOU DO.stick around, open your mind maybe youll learn something about this great breed. believe me, millions of people over hundreds of years didn't see something special about this breed for nothing.

Answer by why me
Submitted on 5/11/2004
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being a wild animal DOES NOT give you a advantage in fighting,actually it is a disadvantage. Ever hear of the fight or flight response. wild animals will flee(even if they could win) from anything that poses a major threat,making them more vulnerable. this is not hard to understand. Animals in the wild are well rounded with ability's to survive, a pitbulls ability's were meant for one reason only. i don't know how else to explain this other then the pitbull was created to be "suicidal" making it do things other animals wouldn't even consider doing, and if it wasn't successful then we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now because there wouldn't be any proud pitbull owners. don't mistake are pride for ignorance. we know a great thing when we see it, you just havent seen it like we have, if you did, you would not deny this.if you do not want to accept our breed for what it is,then so be it, but please do not try to inform us about what are dogs are capable of. we are not trying to be cocky or better then other dog owners, we just recognize we have something special and love sharing our thoughts about it. to us the pitbull is the symbol of courage and loyalty.is that really that horrible?

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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First off, HMMMM and KATE, WOLVES ARE NOT DOGS. Dogs all came from wolves from over thousands of years. Wolves are not domesticated. Wolves can not be pets, and you are truly stupid to believe that pit bulls are more outlawed than wolves is just plain stupid. Also, you can not keep a wolf up to 90% anywhere in America, the highest i believe i have heard which i dont think is even true is 85%. WHYME, i lived in Yellowstone for three months and i studied wolves while i was there, also i have live footage of wolves chasing a mountain lion and pestering a grizzly bear over a kill for a very long time. Bob Landis is the famous cinematogropher who caught the footage. Wolves are fiercly territorial and known to be some of the most territorial animals on earth. read my last post about dogs territories being inside a wolf's territory. BIGDOG, if you look at the facts of guard dogs fighting wolves, THEY ALWAYS HAVE LOST. I recently read an article about a Great Pyrenees dog being killed. No single dog can kill a single wolf. As for the rest of the stuff, Pitbulls can be good dogs, but bad owners make them bad dogs. They are not just killer dogs, they can actually make great pets. People, dogs are pets, PETS people. i dont understand why people cant get that through their thick heads.

Answer by hmmmmm
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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actually i under stated the number, here is were http://www.bright.net/~k9s/wolf.htmle you can buy a wolf hybrid thats 98.6% wolf.i never said wolves were dogs, i said you can breed wolves to dogs,not chimps to humans because someone made the comparison.if i can own a animal thats almost 99% pure wolf but not a mutt thats more then 25% pitbull in certain areas, i think that shows pitbulls are more illegal then wolves in certain areas.not to mention the wolf is cheaper.i never seen a fight between a wolf and a dog but im sure its been done, and if the wolf won you would see more of them around. people are dumb and need money,and if someone found the "dog" that could beat the pitbull today, i don't think pits would be all thats generally used. im no dogman, but i imagine they use what it takes to win,and sense they use pitbulls, i think the pitbull would win.although im sure there would be times when a wolf might win too.i really don't know but i would trust the people that do this(fight) know what there doing.

Answer by hmmmmmm
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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one more thing-wolves are not dogs but you can't get any closer. we consider lions,tigers,leopards,and etc... all cats but the differences are more extreme then wolves and dogs, not to mention dogs and wolves can breed,not sure but i don't think a tiger can breed with a leopard, yet there both "cats". i don't think you could breed an elk with a white tail either yet there both considered "deer". and so on and so on with alot of groups of animals.if dogs and wolves can breed then this proves there almost identical in there d.n.a. make up.also you could consider the similarities in pack behavior and communication in wolves and dogs but not tigers and leopards etc...so it shouldn't be looked down upon if some people want to consider wolves to be dogs.they might not be right but there not wrong either.

Answer by why me
Submitted on 5/12/2004
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does that make sense "i have live footage of wolves chasing a mountain lion and pestering a grizzly bear over a kill for a very long time" why would they chase something for a very long time leaving the kill for something else to get?was the kill running too?you are a lier.if it was over a kill the wolves would go back for there prize after the mountain lion or bear was a safe short distance away.they would have no reason to go for long distances and risk losing there food. next are you going to tell us the wolf really did blow the little pigs house down, or that the big bad wolf really did eat grandma.save your fairy tales for someone who cares. the truth is you all don't like pitbulls and will say anything to try to degrade our breed as much as possible to make yourselves feel more secure about seeing them around, and if you say there are none around you, then you should not create an opinion about them. being a wolf expert or wildlife expert or even a dumb ass like your self does not make you knowledgeable on dog fighting.who are YOU to tell ME about dog fighting? go play somewhere else and leave this to us mature grown ups. before you go though, one more thing- fuk you

Answer by runt
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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I love pits, I have owned several through the years. My current dog is a pit/rotweiler mix. After reading some of these replies, it got old real fast, hearing how the pit is the greatest fighting dog in the world. Ever hear of a PERRO DE PRESA MALLORQUIN? It's like a pit on steroids. They are rare, only around 400 to 450 in the world. Their minimum height standard is 23inches, and the max weight is 150 lbs. here is a link. http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/PERRO_DE_PRESA_MALLORQUIN.htm I'm trying to find a breeder in the U.S., but am not having any luck. Any info would be appreciated. I have found several for PERRO DE PRESA CANARIO, but it is a smaller breed. Still a sizable dog, but not what I'm looking for.

Answer by Ken again
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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this is making no sense to me at all. Neal, Neal my boy, he is the only one that makes sense in this whole entire site. he is the only one that can read most likely. Neal makes the most sense. There is no bad dog. only the owner and trainer hae turned them bad. My mother is a dog trainer. We had a pitbull a while ago, my mom knew what she was doing. the pitbull was a great pet. Everytime i search for dog fights with wild animals news articles. The wolf fight mostly that i have seen. The wolf has always won. A wolf is kind of weak without its pack, BUT, that doesnt mean if a dog will cfome up to a wolf in THE WOLFS TERRITORY, then the dog isnt going to live very long. I have seen some footage as well about a wolf fighting off a mountain lion. That takes some guts and a mountain lion must know that the wolf could do damage. Kind of like if a mountain lion was here and i had gun. It would run because it knows that the gun could do some damage. Wolf would win against a dog no hands down. It doesnt matter what breed the dog is. it depends on the Dog's own self. A doberman used to be the most feared BREED of dog. that doesnt mean that it is the toughest and can win every fight. or the fact that every Doberman should be feared. the wolf would kill a dog, no problem and the easiest of ease...write back Neal, the only one that makes the most sense around here.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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BIGDOG says, "ONLY TWO BREEDS CAN DO-IT IN THE PIT!AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER-AND TOSAS.IF WOVLES WOULD I THINK THESE RICH JAP. WOULD HAVE THEM,HELL IKNOW PEOPLE THAT HAVE HUGE WOVLES." Actually, they could have used tigers or lions or bears ... but, as with Englishmen and Americans, and other Europeans...they wanted a domesticated animal. The dog IS domesticated. A wolf is a wild animal and can easily kill a pit .. in fact, a poodle can beat a pit and has done so, just a posted. A person can easily kick a pit senseless with one boot. I don't think many could do this to a mastiff. You may have the toughest 5 year old in town, but would he stand a chance against a two hundred pound man? No. The fact is that weight comes into the mix also. A small dog such as a pit can fight hard and do well against another small dog .. but will lose against a larger trained dog. The Japanese only use the pit when they are poor and cannot afford a good fighting dog. Recently, 26 people were arrested near Baton Rouge that were fighting dogs. They all looked stupid and as though they were inbred or something. In Japan it's different. A better class of people fight dogs and a richer class...but the poor class still fights. It's like going to a little league baseball game instead of seeing the Yankee team play. Even small children have beaten hell out of pit bulls. It is fool hardy to think of them as the "toughest" animal or even the toughest dog. They certainly could not whip a wolf.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/13/2004
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Hmm says, "does that make sense "i have live footage of wolves chasing a mountain lion and pestering a grizzly bear over a kill for a very long time" why would they chase something for a very long time leaving the kill for something else to get?was the kill running too?you are a lier.if it was over a kill the wolves would go back for there prize after the mountain lion or bear was a safe short distance away.they would have no reason to go for long distances and risk losing there food. next are you going to tell us the wolf really did blow" Hey, you write a little strange, as though you are very young or very ignorant. Wolves prefer to kill using their endurance and they run animals. As for "kate" the dude that pretends to be a girl, the wolf is NOT a dog. They do NOT interbreed in nature and only form from human intervention. The WOLF is NOT a dog, obviously. People that say so are just stupid! Haha! As for your thoughts about wolves and dogs, wolves are protected animals. If a wolf is killed, a record is kept. It's easy to tell dog bites and I have cited information on this subject. Wolves kill dogs every year in several states...dogs have not killed wolves. I have given numbers to call and verify. Your mom doesn't let you use long distance? Here is an official publication: It has always been illegal to possess wolf hybrids, but there was no definitive test to prove that an animal was a hybrid. The new language now reads: "It is now unlawful, without the necessary permit, for a person to possess, sell or advertise for sale a wolf hybrid, as well as any animal represented to to be a wolf or part wolf by any name or description. For purposes of this regulation a wolf hybrid includes the result between the mating of a wolf or wolf hybrid with a dog or another wolf hybrid. It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution for illegal possession under subsection: that the person possessed the animal as a pet prior to January 23, 2002, and that the animal was registered with a national registry approved by the Department by implantation of a microchip by July 1, 2002, and that the animal was properly spayed and neutered by July 1, 2002, and that the owner has kept accurate licensing, vaccination and neutering records, and made them available for inspection by animal control officers and other enforcement officers, and that since January 23, 2002 has not been transferred to any person outside the immediate family of the person that owned it on January 23, 2002, and that, if the animal has bitten anyone, the animal was immediately surrendered to the local authorities for any treatment deemed appropriate by the authorities." This language specifically says that if anyone advertises or or in any way represents the animal as a hybrid, it is a hybrid. Numbers 1-6 "grandfather" current owners in if they comply with all the requirements. The department will not be registering these animals. The national registry referred to is already in place for dogs, so hybrid owners will need to go to their veterinarians to implant the chips and register their animals. http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolfdogs_press_release.html Oh, by the way...most Wolf hybrids are not even part wolf. They can tell a wolf, but they don't have a good test to tell if a dog is part wolf yet...at least, they don't use it in most states, except for Texas.

Answer by The Nameless One
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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Quote: "we have trained dogs for hundreds of years to hunt,capture,or kill wild animals of all sorts" Yeah, they have trained GROUPS of pit bulls to take on ONE large wild animal. And even then, it is very common for one or more pit to get killed in the battle. AND they usually make the pits wear protective gear around their body to prevent injury. One pit bull wouldn't stand a chance against a wolf. And there has never been a record of a domesticated dog taking on a wolf one on one. But there have been many records of wolves killing dogs one on one. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to roll their pit against a wolf one on one, unless they want a dead pit.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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Man, some of you people are not reading carefully or your just stupid. I didnt say they chased the bear and mountain lion from a kill for a long chase, i said they pestered the bear for a very long time. The mountain lion chase didnt last long because it climbed a tree. But if you read books, or talk to wildlife biologists who are in contact with these animals on almost a daily basis, there are many instances of wolves chasing bears for long periods of time, or even bears following wolves on purposes to take over their kills. Also, this idiot saying he doesnt think a wolf can take down a hog of 400 pounds or so. hell man, are you an idiot. Wolves reguarly take down elk by themselves, and their are recorded instances of single wolf killing moose. saying a wolf cant kill a animal of only 400 pounds is a absurdity. half of what you people say is an absurdity. also, THE NAMELESS ONE stated a fact that i brought up about dogs chasing wolves. If you look up the post above, the only dogs that ever killed a wolf without the help of the hunters themselves were large mastiff dogs, AND they said that was when they were a average of 10 dogs on 1 wolf, but the dogs would take tremendous beatings, sometimes hunters would lose a dog or two of any kind of dog in a single hunt.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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why does the people that wrote the MINI ATLAS OF DOG BREEDS LIST DOGS AS BEING ABLE TO SLAY A WOLF?WHY DOES THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER-SAY A WOLF CAN NOT FIGHT AS WELL AS A PIT.JUST WHAT IS IT YOU PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY DO NOT?I KEEP ASKING NO ANSWER!I REALLY WOULD LIKE A COPY OF YOUR BOOK THAT YOU WROTE NEAL-DRAGON-NAMELESS ONE.I MEAN YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY PROOF!AND ITHINK THE PEOPLE THAT PUT TOGETHER A BOOK OF ALL DOG BREEDS IN THE WORLD, WOULD HAVE REASONS FOR STATEMENTS THEY MAKE.BESIDES WOLVES REALLY ARE CLOSE TO DOGS THE ESKIMO USES AND YOU KNOW THAT THOSE DOGS ARE TOUGH BUT NOTHING COMPARED TO A FIGHTING BREED.A WOLF DOES NOT DO ANYTHING TO A MOOSE BY HIS SELF.OR A BEAR OR ANYTHING WITH GOOD SIZE.I HAVE ALWAYS READ THAT HAVING DOG MIXED WITH A WOLF MADE IT A BETTER FIGHTER.I HAVE ALSO READ THAT WOLVES ARE NOT ABLE TO BEST PIT BULLS IN THE PIT.SO ALL I CAN SAY IS IT HAS BEEN TRIED AND I KNOW THE LARGE 70+LB PIT BULLS THAT ARE GAMEBRED WILL WIN.IF YOU DO NOT THINK SO GET A WOLF AND TRY TO TAKE THESE DOG-FIGHTERS MONEY!DO NOT THINK THEY WOULD'NT DO IT!

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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KEN, thanks for the good words man, just stating facts as well as opinion. Let me ask everyone this, if pitbulls and mastiff breeds are such good fighting dogs, then why arent they the top dog in guarding farms out west. (guard dogs are the most often killed as well). also, the question was already answered previously about why arent wolves used in the pit. look back over previous post people off the top of my head though, wolves are very rarely owned, and if so, they are not purebred and thats the fact, they are very skittish of humans. most people of own part wolf are not dumbasses who treat animals badly by fighting them. also, like i stated, any dog can be a good pet, it just matters how you bring it up. a wolf though can not be a good pet, people have tried and there houses become destroyed because it is a WILD ANIMAL. Wolves are unpredictable and if you have ever been around a wild animal, you get a weird feeling around ya, kind of scared, kind of excited, and curious, you feel the same ways around wolves, tigers, lions, bears, etc..

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/14/2004
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they were bred to fight in the pit.guard dogs were bred to be protective of stock.all dogs were bred to do different things.a fighting breed would not care about the sheep.the coats are shorter they do not take the cold as well.a lone wolf would have no chance one on one with a moose.a mt.lion would kill one in a fair fight.wolves have a pack order and they do not hunt big animals alone.these dogs that were developed to fight are alot more than you think.i have always heard wolves were not that great in the pits.a man that lives near by does have one that is 120lb+and he did fight it and it was nearly killed by a gamebred APBT.it does not matter if one or two of you guys think i am just saying this.if you try hard to find the truth you will![this wolf is supose to pure i could'ntsay for sure but he is much more impressive,than some others i have seen.theres no one around here that cares what you own,as long as it causes no trouble.so whoopee you think your'reright and i think i'mright.]

Answer by hmmm
Submitted on 5/15/2004
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nameless one-WRONG, catch dogs are lone dogs that restrain an animal,they grab by the head hold it down while the hunter either shoots or stabs thru ribs behind the leg to the heart. more then one makes the catch dogs compete against each other, causing great risk to the hunter. they do use hounds to track the animal but these dogs usually don't touch the animal. once cornered or stopped they release the catch dog to do his work. catch dogs have died,but it is not common, if it was they wouldn't do it,these dogs are expensive.the protective gear is almost NEVER worn in the wild because it hinders the dog also. they use the gear in organized competitions in the south to protect the dog so it competes several times in one day.second a wolf would NEVER attempt to take down an animal such as the moose or elk by itself! if they could there wouldn't be no reason for a pack.show me your "recorded proof".third, so what if wolves kill dogs,so do pitbulls, show me just ONE proven story out of all your documented wolf stories where a pitbull was killed.open your eyes people, we are not saying the wolf is a puss, just that it would not last in a pit, no one disputes the fact the wolf is an awesome animal, just that it depends on a community to survive, in the pit it's one on one. the wolf is almost unstoppable in a pack, but he is a coward by himself and calls for back up every time.PROVE ME WRONG WITH REAL DOCUMENTED PROOF NOT YOUR OPINIONS.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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I posted an article about a large poodle whipping a pit bull and his stupid master. I posted a sit where you can contact DOG FIGHTERS and they will tell you even the largest pit bull generally loses against the RUNT Tosa. It's a fact. For Grand Champion, they can be ANY weight..the Grand Champion is a TOSA. Idiot. Women and children have kicked pits, even those that were bred for fighting, away. I have posted medical training paragraphs that discuss wounds. A pit bull can chew on a moose femur all week...the wolf can break it in a few bites. Experts say wolves have bites that are at least four or five times stronger than the largest dogs. BIGDOG, you seem to be a child or something. You are really ignorant. You mentioned two books and they don't support you. Give me the page numbers. They fight pits because they are small animals. They bred them to be small, but if you have the money and want qa guard dog, you can have a bigger dog. That's what rich do. Dude, your head is full of saw dust and you obviously have mental problems. It's pretty clear that the pit is not even the champion among dogs and this is CLEAR. How can you be so stupid?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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The Presa Canario, as mentioned by someone else on this forum, can easily kill a pit bull. When dog fighting convicts in gangs wanted to breed "killer dogs" that would act as murder weapons to kill people, they chose the Presa Canario. The government recognizes as fact that the Presa Canario is tougher than a pit... Defendant Knoller�s Reply In Support Of Motion For A New Trial 1 DENNIS P. RIORDAN, State Bar No. 69320 DONALD M. HORGAN, State Bar No. 121547 523 Octavia Street San Francisco, CA 94102 Telephone: (415) 431-3472 DYLAN L. SCHAFFER, State Bar No. 153612 686 Jean Street Oakland, CA 94610 Telephone: (510) 547-5860 Attorneys for Defendant MARJORIE KNOLLER IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff, -vs- MARJORIE KNOLLER AND ROBERT NOEL, Defendants. ))))))))))))))) S.C. No. 181813-01 M.C. No. 1977360 S.C. No. 181813-02 M.C. No. 1977361 DEFENDANT KNOLLER�S REPLY MEMORANDUM IN SUPPORT OF MOTION FOR A NEW TRIAL Date: June 7, 2002 Time: 9:00 a.m. Dept.: Before The Hon. James Warren (my notes: although pits have killed people and accounted for the majority of the deaths (before being banned in most municipalities) in 1987 and 1988, they could not kill healthy adults!!!!) From the court case: 3. The prosecution does not contest that the only evidence bearing on the issue of dog fatalities came from Doctor Lockwood, the prosecution�s expert, one of the country�s leading authorities on the epidemiology of fatal dog bites, which he has studied since 1972. (RT 5152) Lockwood testified that in the more than 300 dog-caused fatalities that he had studied over that period, there never had been a case, as here, �of a healthy adult young woman who has been killed The state argues in its response that �Defendant Knoller herself admitted that she knew that this breed of dog was meaner than a pit bull.� (Response at 4).

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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So, we have established that a pit bull has never been able to kill a healthy adult. Even the LARGEST pit bulls are easily killed by people! THE CITY OF LOS ANGELOS PD USES PRESAS TO KILL PIT BULLS !!! FROM the Whipple case: "(RT 4622-4623.) When asked if she knew Presas were a dangerous, aggressive, and violent breed, Knoller acknowledged that Presas �have a history of being a war dog and a fighting dog.� (RT 4828, 4938.) Knoller was aware that Schneider and Bretches sent Noel a copy of a book called Manstopper, and a newsletter called �Gripper.� (RT 4824-4827.) The �Gripper� newsletter discussed the police department�s use of Presa Canarios to disable pit bulls. (RT 4827.) ALSO, A MAN CAN EASILY KILL A PIT!!!! Man Strangles Rabid Pit Bull AP ^ \| September 5, 2003 Posted on 09/05/2003 12:46:58 PM PDT by Shermy CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Will Stewart says he didn't have a choice in strangling a pit bull-mix. . The dog bit or scratched four adults and two children in an Indian Trail neighborhood and was later found to be rabid. Stewart says the dog, Jake, went crazy. He says after the dog bit the children and his wife, he had to act. He called the dog, which he thinks weighed between 50 and 60 pounds, and pinned him to the ground. Stewart says he couldn't wait for animal control to arrive, so he strangled the dog as he and the dog's owner held him down.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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The wolf pack consists of the alpha male (the dad), the mother, and the off spring. That's why there is a pack. Wolves also hunt as "lone" wolves, either because they choose to or because they were thrown out of the pack. It's almost always a "lone wolf" that kills dogs. The LAPD and other police departments use Presa Canario dogs to kill or neutralize pit bulls. The NAPD (National Association of Protection Dogs) recommends using a dog between 110-150 pounds. Below this weight and they aren't a sufficient deterrent to men when they attack. Above this weight, they pose too much of a danger. The bite of the Mastiff or Tosa, for example, is so massive in terms of damage, that these dogs are NOT recommended for the simple reason that their muscle mass and size make them too deadly. I keep hearing the same person talking about pits without any proof....the fact is that in Japan, the pit bull doesn't stand a chance against the Tosa, and in the United States, the pit bull doesn't stand a chance against the Presa Canario. The pit bull is fought because he is small and he has some "game" characteristics. That's it. It's not because he's the toughest animal, he isn't. People that own pit bulls are often sociopathic and have all kinds of mental problems. The fact is that when the Europeans first arrived, the much larger Mastifs defeated the home Japanese dog that weighed about 60 pounds. They couldn't fight a dog that weighed 2 or 3 HUNDRED pounds. The Japanese began to breed a new dog and over the centuries, they came up with the Tosa. It's a dog that is bred, not to be small and eat little, but to be the toughest dog in the world. It has beaten all other breeds. However, the pit did not do well in Japan even with small Tosas...and in the United States, the larger Presa Canario always whips the pit bull.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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this is the american pit bull terrier by richard f. stratton page 7 the mini-atlas of dog dog breeds by andrew de prisco and james b.johnson pages-419-407-412-428-114 in the whipple case there was two presa canario and if you look at the dog fight site they are not used to fight in japan because they can not. all we are saying is humans,moose whatever is not what meets the test.dog on dog[wolf]is it.and just because someone has a different opinion than you does not make them a child or have ahead full of sawdust.all of that proves nothing and adds nothing to this debate.it got out of hand before and i have tried to stay away from it of late.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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quote mixed match dog fights -by Jan Libourel editor tosa dog newsletter. the presa canario had its origins as a fighting dog.today it is largely a reconstructed breed,with heavy infusions of english mastiff and american staffordshire terrier blood.as a fighter it is reported to be similar to the American bulldog -furiously aggressive for the first few minutes of the fight but lacking in gameness and staying power.when all is said and done the''toughtest dog in the world'' is probably either a 60-70 pound pit bull dog or a tosa weighing about 130 pounds.-of course you read this neal dragon but as you could not use it you left it out.thats what you are all about twist the facts to suit your needs.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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Idiot. We are not talking about "bull crap" fights! We are talking about the Presa Canario, a dog that is used the the Los Angelos Police Department, right now, to neutralized pit bulls. Not to compete with them, the Presa just KILLS them or injures them so they can't be dangerous and this happens IMMEDIATELY. You don't know anything about dog fighting. Humans fight in similar weights .... a heavy weight would knock a feather weight out in the first round. There would be no competition, so they don't fight. The dogs are also divided by their weight. The smaller dogs for the most part can't compete with larger dogs ... assuming they are both trained. You can say what you want, but the REAIITY is that the pt does not stand a chance against the Presa or the Tosa. End of story. In the real world, these dogs destroy pit bulls and there is no fight because there is NO competition!!! Get it? There are dog books by people that see pits and also people that are just dtupid. Most pit bull owners are certainly stupid and sociopathic. You and others ignore reality and just talk and talk. The legal case mentions the use of Presa Canario dogs to protet LAPD against all the gang pit bulls that are used for fighting and to attack people that enter their property. I have also shown that in the real world, the pit cannot even compete with the Tosa because it's not even a fight...the Tosa easily wins. I have given a number of the fighting dog center where ANY dog can fight, but the pit is no competition. Youcan also call the LAPD. Small pits are dangerous to children and the elderly or the infirm, but in 300 DEATHS, a pit has NEVER killed even a healthy woman. That's a fact. However, even poodles and children have whipped pits. Would this happen with a wolf? I don't think so. You are such a fool!!!! It's as though you have no comprehension of reality.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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Marjorie Knoller, Convicted in Dog Mauling, To Be Released The California woman whose dogs mauled to death a neighbor in January, 2001 will soon be released on parole after serving a little more than a year in prison. Marjorie Knoller, who was present when her two large Presa Canario dogs attacked and killed Diane Whipple in the hallway of their apartment building, was convicted of second-degree murder in 2002. On appeal, a judge reduced the verdict to involuntary manslaughter and sentenced Knoller to a prison term of four years, the maximum allowed. Under California's sentencing laws, Knoller's parole was mandatory after she had served 14 months. Knoller will be released sometime within the next few days, according to California Department of Corrections spokesman Russ Heimerich. She will be driven by a parole officer from the Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla to an undisclosed location in southern California to serve her parole. Knoller will not be allowed to live with her husband, Robert Noel, who was also convicted in the case and was released earlier. That's because "parolees are usually prohibited from associating with other convicted felons," CNN reports here.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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a pit bull can be over 100 pounds.not all are small dogs.i had a big male that weighed 85 pounds.the large ones are listed as capable of stopping a full grown man.i do think a wolf can be killed by many different breeds of dogs.i have listed my books page numbers.no determind pit bull would be whipped by a poodle or child.thats crazy.of couse a defective dog of any breed may not give a good acount of its self.but why are dogs listed as being able to kill wolves one on one in the atlas?is because you know more than the experts that wrote it?also why does it matter to you,if i think differently than you?really i was just getting in the fray of things for a while but,i thought i don'nteven know this guy what do i care what he thinks or does'ntthink![OH YEAH MY NICKNAME IS'NTREALLY BIGDOG THATS WHAT WE CALL MY 90LB. YELLOW LAB THAT JUST THINKS HE THE TOUGHEST DOG IN THE WORLD]

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/16/2004
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for one thing, i havent read that book in order to see what it is talking about, but i will check it out. but i am certain it wasnt clearly saying one dog can kill a single, full grown adult wolf. i have heard that they might have killed pups back in the 20's when they were being chased. Also, the book may be referring to a different species of wolf, not particullary the gray wolf, which is the largest of the wolf species. there are MANY different wolf species that range from 30-150 or more pounds. The thirty pound wolf would have trouble, but not a gray wolf(timber wolf). it just doesnt happened, if it could, it would be listed on websites, news articles, etc. all over the place and people would be using them as guard dogs for their livestock. And none of them can take on a single wolf. in a counterargument, i will be giving you the list of those books i referred to you in about a day or two, there are at another house.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/17/2004
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firedragons, i would love to stop the insults, if you could please do the same. i don't like it like this and i know i only make myself sound bad when i get vulgar. i am just frustrated that you have avoided some really good topics and focused on some that are not really note worthy (poodle for one). please understand pits make great pets,even around kids, and when you say not, you are helping damage this breeds already bad reputation. out of 6 pitbulls i have had, i have only seen one instance where one was aggressive towards a person.a guy was drunk and came at a friend of mine, took a swing and missed, my dog jumped up in the air,to eye level with the man and barked in his face,never touched him though.other then that i have had great experiences with these dogs as well as allot of other people have. it is wrong to make claims that all pits are dangerous,please man do some research, you will find this breed is extremely loyal and trustworthy.just out of curiosity, what breeds have you owned?

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/17/2004
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HMMMM, i agree with your first post there, not all pits are bad, the only bad pits are the ones with bad owners. a pit bull is a domesticated dog, just like any other dog, and if you treat it good, it will be good. now you have some dogs out of any breed that is a little more protective or territorial, but that is within any breed. it just depends on that certain animal. I know people who have pit bulls that are great pets. As for the second post, a majority of the time, a wolf pack makes a kill, but there is a lot of times that lone wolves do take down kills by themselves. but if they had the pack and it was close by, they would hunt together most likely.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/17/2004
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Oliver said, "This is to the simple idiot that said wolves and dogs are a different species. The domestic dogs scientific name is canis lupus familiaris. Dogs and wolves are the same species. Some domestic dogs are actually closer related to wolves than they are other domestic dogs.� Hmm..Oliver, you are a zoologist? Is this right? First of all, you seem to be a little confused about the scientific name. You have confused species and genus. A wolf is Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Subphylum: Vertebrata Class: Mammalia Order: Carnivora Family: Canidae Genus: Canis Species Canis Lupus Sub Species if using trinomial nomenclature: Canis lupus dingo The dog species binomial nomenclature is Canis familiaris Some choose the controversial trinomial nomenclature which would be: Canis lupus familiaris Most do not use this classification because there is some disagreement about the need to further classify. It's pretty easy to tell a wolf from a dog. The idea of the trinomial classification is that since wolves and dogs can mate and have viable offspring (wolf-dog hybrids); however, they don't mate in nature and require human intervention. THE FACT IS THAT ALL ANIMALS OF THE GENUS CANIS CAN MATE AND HAVE VIABLE OFFSPRING. http://www.mnh.si.edu/GeneticsLab/StaffPage/MaldonadoJ/PublicationsCV/Science_Dog_Paper.pdf This is pretty plain. Canis includes jackals, foxes, coyotes, and so on� The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service recommended that all Canis genus animals could be vacinated by using the same vacine. At present time, the FDA requires that dogs and wolves have vacines that have been tested separately. "Regulations in 9 CFR part 112 set packaging and labeling requirements for veterinary biological products, and APHIS requires a product�s label to identify the animals for which the product has been demonstrated to be effective and safe. Paragraph (b) of Sec. 113.209 requires a rabies vaccine to be tested for immunogenicity in each species for which it will be recommended." IN OTHER WORDS, DOGS AND WOLVES MUST BE TESTED SEPARATELY BY LAW. THEY ARE, BY LAW, CONSIDERED DIFFERENT SPECIES. By law, the Canis lupus is protected, but the dog, Canis familiaris is not protected (no law). The law makes the distinction. The dog is Canis familiaris http://www.mnh.si.edu/GeneticsLab/StaffPage/MaldonadoJ/PublicationsCV/Heredity_Dog_Paper_1999.pdf The DOG separated from the WOLF about 125,000 years ago and both have developed independently. http://www.mnh.si.edu/GeneticsLab/StaffPage/MaldonadoJ/PublicationsCV/Science_Dog_Paper.pdf A dog is NOT a wolf. The first term of the species name is capitalized the second term is not. There are also other sub's of wolves, including Canis lupus tundrarum, the artic wolf. If you just see Canis lupus and Canis Familiaris, the first is a wolf, the second is a dog. See http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dog Normally, you don't need to name Kingdom and do on ... we memorized this stuff in Zoology by Kings Play Chess On Fine Grained Sand. The subphylum is generally left out, and so on. Human parent taxa includes Animalia Chordata Vertebrata Mammalia Primates Hominidae Homo(genus name) sapiens Our species is Homo sapiens I don't know very much about plants, but plants often have another classification and a further name. I took botany also, but only the first course.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/18/2004
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maremma sheepdog pastore abruzzese,cane da pastore maremmano- abruzzese portrait-this profusely coated sheepdog is thickly boned and solidly muscled enough to deter the desperate burglar and SLAY THE HUNGRY WOLF.KEEPING WITH HIS FLOCK GUARDING HERITAGE,HIS COAT MUST ALAYS BE WHITE;ANY ORANGE OR YELLOW COLORATION IS TOLERATED ON THE EARS ONLY.VERY IMPRESSIVE ARE THE LARGE SHOULDERS AND THICK LEGS.HEIGHT 25-29 INCHES WEIGHT 70-100 POUNDS. DEVELOPMENT-THE LONGER BODIED MOUNTAIN DELLER,THE ABRUZZESE AND THE SHORTER COATED SHEEPDOG,THE MAREMMANO,COMBINED TO FORM TODAY'S MAREMMA.A DIRECT DESCENDANT OF EARLY ASIAN GUARDS,THESE TWO BREEDS,EACH FROM SLIGHLY DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHIC REGIOPNS,CULMINATE IN THE MAREMMA. RECOGNITION-FCI-KCGB CHARACTER-ALTHOUGH NOT AS LARGE AS MANY OF ITS FELLOW FLOCK GUARDS,THE MAREMMA POSSESSES COMPARABLE ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH,AS WELL AS THE ABILITY TO FEIGN THE EXTRA 50 POUNDS IT LACKS.ITS ALERT ANDINDEPENDENT DISPOSITION PRESUPPOSE AN UNINHIBITED MAJESTIC AIR.AFLOCK GUARD OF IMPOSING DOMINANCE AND LIFELONG DEDICATION,THE BREED TAKES CONTROL OVER ITS FLOCK AND HUMAN FAMILY.AS A PET,HE IS NOT DOTING OR OVERLY DEMONSTRATIVE,BUT HIS LOYALTY IS SURELY UNDYING.THE MAREMMA IS TAME WITH MAN;BREEDERS HAVE ADAPTED THIS RUGGED WOLF-SLAYER INTO A MARVELOUS COMPANION,WITHOUT LOSING ITS EXTRAORDINARY WORKING ABILITIES. QUOTED FROM THE MINI-ATLAS OF DOG BREEDS PAGE 419 THAT PLAINLY STATES THIS BREED OF DOG [TWICE]TO BE ABLE TO KILL A WOLF ITS DOES NOT SAY WOLF PUP,OR 30LBS. WOLF BUT WOLF!IF NEAL DRAGON KNOWS MORE THAN THE EXPERTS THAT WROTE THIS BOOK HE SHOULD ARGUE WITH THEM![HE WOULD NO DOUBT]

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/18/2004
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maremma sheepdog pastore abruzzese,cane da pastore maremmano- abruzzese portrait-this profusely coated sheepdog is thickly boned and solidly muscled enough to deter the desperate burglar and SLAY THE HUNGRY WOLF.KEEPING WITH HIS FLOCK GUARDING HERITAGE,HIS COAT MUST ALAYS BE WHITE;ANY ORANGE OR YELLOW COLORATION IS TOLERATED ON THE EARS ONLY.VERY IMPRESSIVE ARE THE LARGE SHOULDERS AND THICK LEGS.HEIGHT 25-29 INCHES WEIGHT 70-100 POUNDS. DEVELOPMENT-THE LONGER BODIED MOUNTAIN DELLER,THE ABRUZZESE AND THE SHORTER COATED SHEEPDOG,THE MAREMMANO,COMBINED TO FORM TODAY'S MAREMMA.A DIRECT DESCENDANT OF EARLY ASIAN GUARDS,THESE TWO BREEDS,EACH FROM SLIGHLY DIFFERENT GEOGRAPHIC REGIOPNS,CULMINATE IN THE MAREMMA. RECOGNITION-FCI-KCGB CHARACTER-ALTHOUGH NOT AS LARGE AS MANY OF ITS FELLOW FLOCK GUARDS,THE MAREMMA POSSESSES COMPARABLE ENDURANCE AND STRENGTH,AS WELL AS THE ABILITY TO FEIGN THE EXTRA 50 POUNDS IT LACKS.ITS ALERT ANDINDEPENDENT DISPOSITION PRESUPPOSE AN UNINHIBITED MAJESTIC AIR.AFLOCK GUARD OF IMPOSING DOMINANCE AND LIFELONG DEDICATION,THE BREED TAKES CONTROL OVER ITS FLOCK AND HUMAN FAMILY.AS A PET,HE IS NOT DOTING OR OVERLY DEMONSTRATIVE,BUT HIS LOYALTY IS SURELY UNDYING.THE MAREMMA IS TAME WITH MAN;BREEDERS HAVE ADAPTED THIS RUGGED WOLF-SLAYER INTO A MARVELOUS COMPANION,WITHOUT LOSING ITS EXTRAORDINARY WORKING ABILITIES. QUOTED FROM THE MINI-ATLAS OF DOG BREEDS PAGE 419 THAT PLAINLY STATES THIS BREED OF DOG [TWICE]TO BE ABLE TO KILL A WOLF ITS DOES NOT SAY WOLF PUP,OR 30LBS. WOLF BUT WOLF!IF NEAL DRAGON KNOWS MORE THAN THE EXPERTS THAT WROTE THIS BOOK HE SHOULD ARGUE WITH THEM![HE WOULD NO DOUBT]

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/18/2004
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Haha! Loser! There are various breeds of wolfs and near wolfs. Some are very small, some are not really wolves, they are called wolves. The Aardwolf for example is called a wolf and it can even bite into fresh meat! Wolves generally weigh 80-160 pounds, but some in Europe are only 50 pounds or less and some in India are 200 pounds or more. LET ME REPEAT. SOUTHERN EUROPE WOLVES ARE VERY SMALL AND EVEN THEN, IT'S ILLEGAL TO ADVERTISE IN THE US A DOG AS A WOLF KILLER BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE! We have sheep herders in WY and other parts of the US. The dogs certainly don't kill any wolves there. Dude, the fact is that the Los Angelos Police Department uses the Presa to kill or neutralize the pit. Large poodles have killed pits. Healthy adults have killed pits with their bare hands, including women. No pit in the US has ever killed a healthy woman or man....Rabid wolves have killed both. One wolf in France alone killed more than one hundred people. As I have said, the size makes a difference. A very small wolf is not as tough as a large wolf. In WY, no wolves have been killed by dogs, but wolves have killed the sheep dogs. The wolf is a wild animal that has a serious bite...it can bite through a bone much larger than a cow's femur in five or six bites. A dog can chew on one for weeks. I know someone with a pit and their bone is still in one piece, except for the ends....there are NO studies that say a dog's bite is stronger than a wolf. And advertisement for a "wolf killer" is highly suspect. I know other hunters that have encountered wolves, and the wolves kill the dogs. The Discovery Channel said that the wolf bite PSI is at least 4 or five times greater than any dog. That answers that question.

Answer by Firedragons3
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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"The wolf has very strong jaws. The jaws of a wolf have a crushing pressure twice that of a large dog such as a German Shepherd. Wolves do not chew their food; they rip off chunks and swallow them whole. The remains of animals killed by wolves often later become meals for coyotes, foxes, birds, and other smaller creatures. In nature, nothing is wasted." Note the Discovery channel says it's at least four or five times as strong. "THE TWO MAIN NATURAL CAUSES OF WOLF DEATH ARE STARVATION, WHICH USUALLY KILLS PUPS, AND DEATH FROM OTHER WOLVES IN TERRITORY FIGHTS. INJURIES CAUSED BY THEIR PREY ALSO ACCOUNT FOR SOME DEATHS. (MOOSE, EVEN SICK ONES, ARE DANGEROUS!) KILLING BY HUMANS, BOTH LEGAL AND ILLEGAL, CAN ALSO BE HIGH IN SOME AREAS." " The gray wolf, Canis lupus, lives in the northern latitudes around the world. There are five subspecies of the gray wolf in North America. They are: 1. Canis lupus baileyi, or the Mexican wolf. 2. Canis lupus nubilus, the Great Plains or buffalo wolf. 3. Canis lupus occidentalis, the Rocky Mountain wolf or Mackenzie Valley wolf. 4. Canis lupus lycaon, the eastern timber wolf. 5. Canis lupus arctos, the Arctic wolf. " http://www.geocities.com/thesciencefiles/wolf/page.html So, as you can see ... the MAJOR cause of death IS fighing among themselves. MOST PITS don't die from fighting. They have easy lives and don't have to kill for their food. Wolves fight among themselves visciously. They must kill to survive. Pits just have to eat from their plate. It takes a real dude to think that a domestic animal such as the pit could even compare.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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hey guys, still havent heard back from a hybrid kennel yet,but just got this e-mail from japan, hope it clears up the beleifs about pits in japan." Yes, the Japanese use pretty much the same stuff that dogmen use in the U.S. I have sent many dogs from top kennels to Japan personally including a son of Ch. Bigjohn x Sabre from WAC. The Japanese dogmen have invested $$ in top quality dogs from most of the big names in the last 3 decades. We have much of the same bloodlines as the U.S. and we have bloodlines from these foundation stock that has worked well for us for several generations in the pit. The tosa is a game breed as the pit. There are individuals who are game and not so game just as there are in the bulldogs. It may be true that there may be more percentage of dead game dogs in fastlane pits but the tosas are also quite good and are getting better every generation as they are used only for the pit here. There are no pits or tosas in Japan that are not used in the ring. Compare that to the U.S. and it is safe to say although there are larger total numbers of game pits in the U.S. perhaps due to the overall larger population of pits there. Japan has greater percentage of quality dogs." that came from the website bigdog listed earlier and i think it proves pitbulls are not for the poor and that they must be pretty respected over there.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Haha!! bigDOG says, "all big mouth.there has been adults killed by pit bulls not that is something to brag about.so what you have wolf love.its " Haha! You need another name! I cited the COURT report that said, in the criminal case, that NO PIT HAD EVER KILLED A HEALTHY ADULT WOMAN OR MAN !!!! It's up there, in the Presa Canario case. They argued that since this dog was unable to kill a healthy adult, there was no reason to suspect it was dangerous...except the state said that a Presa is NOT a pit and that the Presa is used to kill pits by the police They didn''t want the Presa to be compared to a little dog that kills mostly very young children (70% are under five or something) and can't kill a healthy adult!! I cited where cops have just kicked the pit with a boot and that was it. The pit ran off and attacked someone else. I have cited where poodles have whipped the ass of pits and where a man strangled one to death easily. I am certainly not afraid of that little dog! I would definitely not want to tangle with a 150 pound wolf. I know I would be injured, but I don't even worry about that short little pit bull!! The Presa IS FOUGHT in Japan. It can't beat the TOSA. The Tosa is a hound from hell. It has a droop around it's neck. Animals can't bit the neck. It's skin can be pull a foot from it's body. It gets superficial wounds but never serious ones. It is big...the champions often weigh 200 pounds or more! The Tosa whips all breeds of dogs and in the challenge ... the Presa is big enough to fight a Tosa, but not tough enough to survive. I read about a man that fought a Tosa. He tried to throw a Tosa off one time and grabbed the neck. The animal stretched away from the skin and bit his stomach...the jaws were massage and the man suffered severe trauma, but lived. His arm couldn't stretch the skin far enough and the dog was too strong. .

Answer by WOLF KILLER!
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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I have a sheep ranch in the foothills of the rocky mts.I will tell you a wolf by its self is a coward.They have killed our guard [flock]dogs but it was the pack that caught a lone dog.They are nothing alone.A great pyrenees can destroy one by its self.Wolves know this and will not try my dogs,one on one.Firedragon you have nothing but insults and arrogance.You are full of half-truths and ingrained lies.Your lengthy argument is childish.You think by insults you gain the advantage.I will not get into to a prolonged debate with a argumentative fool.Out here we hate wolves and wolf lovers so the goverment adjusters are'ntcalled very often.If a wolf was put in a pit with a fighting dog you better have some high walls,to keep it from running away!

Answer by in the know
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Firedragons has a lot of issues. Its plain to see he makes everything up, if you were to ask him if he's got any friends he would get out the phone directory and read out all the names. A presa wouldn't last against a gamebred pitbull, just not good enough. And its funny how that firegimp contradicts himself, if a single officer could scare a mean pit away with his boot, why would the police department need to bring a big mean dog into neutralize it. If you are going to lie to back up a poor argument, at least remember what your previous arguments are. As i said earlier, its clear firegimp has no clue what he talks about, i bet he was bullied at school, is it possible to post pictures on this site, if so, would you post one of yourself firegimp, so we can all laugh at you even more, FOOL

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Ken, i didnt think that was you writing that, just some immature dummy. also WOLFKILLER, a great pyrenees cannot destroy a wolf one on wolf, and wolves are not cowards. many wolves go off by thmemselves and live until they find a mate. many lone wolves have killed single dogs, the dogs have no chance. here is a interesting article of six wolves attacking 11 dogs. brought to you online by Pinedale Online -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wolf Pack Attacks Dogs 3 Dogs injured in Upper Green by Rob Shaul "It was about 12:30 a.m. when they hit camp and got into the dogs," recalls Jasper Ingalls of Riverton. Mr. Ingalls, 18, and his brother Spencer, 14, were trying to sleep inside an old bus their family uses for a cow camp in the Upper Green last Wednesday night when six wolves from the Teton wolf pack entered camp and attacked their eleven dogs. Jasper hadn't been able to sleep all night. He and Spencer knew the pack was in their area. Earlier on Wednesday they had seen fresh tracks and they rode through their herd of 600-700 cows late in the evening to check things over. During that evening ride Jasper fired two shots into the air hoping that it would scare any wolves in the area away from the cattle. But the wolves were near camp that night when he turned in. He could hear them howling incessantly, and so could the eleven dogs outside. "One of 'em would howl and the dogs would go crazy," he continues, "It's hard to sleep with the dogs going crazy." Then, right around 12:30 a.m., a wolf howled ten yards from the window nearest Jasper's bed. "That got my adrenaline going." Jasper hopped up, and without getting dressed, opened the door to the bus. "Right when I opened the door I saw one of the wolves chasing one of our pups," he says. The pup was headed right for Jasper and the safety of the bus. It hopped past the young man, through the door, and into the bus, with the wolf hot in pursuit. "I didn't know if the wolf was going to come in behind her or not," said Mr. Ingalls, who quickly shut the door just in case. Outside, the wolves were attacking the rest of the Ingalls' dogs. Jasper quickly threw on a pair of pants and his boots, found a small, mini-mag flashlight, and grabbed the 12-guage shotgun with an 18" barrel and pistol grip the Ingalls keep in camp for protection. He opened the door, stepped outside and shined the flashlight towards the fight just 20 yards away. He saw at least four of the wolves on top of one of his dogs, "Freckles." "Our dogs were around the wolves, biting them, but the wolves weren't paying attention to the other dogs. They might turn around and chase one for a second, but then they'd go back to chewing on the one dog," said Mr. Ingalls. All six of the wolves in the camp were black, and Jasper says there's "not a chance" they can be mistaken for dogs. He describes them as about twice as tall as a normal dog. Their tail is "really long" he continues, about as long as the rest of their body. "They can be really lean looking and they have a real long nose on them. Take a dog and times it by two." Jasper fired three quick shots into the air and five of the wolves "disappeared" into the surrounding dark timber. But one of them didn't. This brazen wolf stood still, watching Jasper and the downed dog. The lone wolf stood broadside, illuminated by the flashlight. After an uneasy moment, this wolf walked slowly into the timber, following the rest of the pack. Freckles had been "bit in the gut" said Mr. Ingalls, and was bleeding. In addition, four other dogs were missing. Interestingly, the wolves didn't bother the Ingalls' horses, which were hobbled nearby. Back inside the bus, Jasper used a satellite phone to call Dubois and leave a message for his father, Dan, who was enroute to Riverton for a meeting the next morning. Then Jasper and Spencer saddled their horses and put the rest of the dogs on the wolves' trail. Their intention was to chase the pack out of their grazing allotment. Jasper used a wolf receiver to determine that the pack was the Teton pack, and not the Gros Ventre pack. He says one wolf in each pack is radio collared and the signals from the collars have different frequencies so the packs can be identified. Using the dogs and the receiver, the Ingalls brothers followed the pack for 2-3 hours. The wolves headed towards the common allotments leased by the Upper Green River Cattlemen's Association. The two brothers rode back into their camp around 4:30 a.m. On the way in they heard from their father Dan, who had received the message Jasper left and turned back from his trip to Riverton. The Ingalls use small, handheld radios to communicate in the backcountry, and Dan raised his sons on the radio at about 4 a.m. One of the missing four dogs was waiting for the Ingalls in camp. Two more showed up the next morning and the final missing dog was found alive at another camp. In all, the wolves bit three dogs, and one, Freckles, went to the vet. Back in camp, Dan Ingalls called Upper Green River Cattlemen's Association Albert Sommers of Daniel to warn him that the wolves were headed their way. While chasing the wolves, Jasper and Spencer saw about 50 head of the association's cows "bunched up like they were sheep" as if they were under attack from the pack. When Albert Sommers finally reached the association's rider, Bruce Wolford, later that morning to warn him about the wolves, they were already in a sagebrush meadow near the camp. In just a few hours the pack had traveled approximately 10 miles from the Ingalls' camp to the association's camp. Dan Ingalls was struck at how the wolves "showed no fear of people at all. "He notes that the pack came right into camp, and attacked the dogs near and in between several vehicles. Current rules allow ranchers to shoot wolves that are attacking their livestock on private land, but they cannot kill wolves that are attacking their dogs. "I think they've got enough wolves," says Dan, "They should change the rules so if wolves come that close to the camp you should be able to shoot them." He notes that if you found a person in your yard killing your dog you'd be able to take some action and wonders why wolves should be granted more rights then people. "In all honesty, nobody thought the wolves would be going after dogs quite this much," said Mike Jimenez, Project Leader for Wolf Recovery in Wyoming for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Ranchers may shoot a wolf caught attacking livestock on private ground, but not on a public grazing allotment," says Mr. Jimenez. Ranchers and others cannot shoot a wolf attacking a dog no matter where the attack is occurring - private land or public. Mr. Jimenez said that if a wolf pack were caught attacking a dog twice, one of the wolves from the pack would be relocated. If the pack is caught attacking a dog a third time, another wolf from the pack will be removed, and on and on until the attacks stop, says Mr. Jimenez. He adds that there are currently one adult, and five yearlings in the Teton Pack, and five adults, five yearlings in the Gros Ventre pack. "I don't know" continues Mr. Ingalls, "I'm just glad their not killing my cattle. I don't think they've figured that out yet. When they do, it'll be messy." (According to Mr. Jimenez, wolves have killed one calf in the Upper Green so far this summer.) Dan says the wolves are killing antelope in the Upper Green, "and the antelope are going crazy - they've done things I've never seen before." One night Mr. Ingalls was driving slowly back to camp when a bunch of 60 antelope crossed the road right in front of his truck and began circling him. "They circled me three or four times like they didn't want to leave me. They were scared. I figured there was a pack after them." On Wednesday, the Ingalls boys bumped into some guests of the Darwin Ranch, who were fishing. They had found some wolf tracks, says Jasper, and were really excited and hoped they'd get to see some wolves. "There's a lot of people who think a wolf is just a dog," concluded Jasper, "They're not scared of them and they should be." See The Archives for past articles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright � 1999, 2000 The Sublette County Journal All rights reserved. Reproduction by any means must have permission of the Publisher. The Sublette County Journal, PO Box 3010, Pinedale, WY 82941 Phone 307-367-3713 Publisher/Editor: Rob Shaul editor@scjonline.com

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Haha! (In the Know) said: "Firedragons has a lot of issues. Its plain to see he makes everything up, if you were to ask him if he's got any friends he would get out the phone directory and read out all the names. A presa wouldn't last against a gamebred pitbull, just not good enough. And its funny how that firegimp contradicts himself, if a single officer could scare a mean pit away with his boot, why would the police department need to bring a big mean dog into neutralize " They were different articles. The policeman just kicked the pit and the "fighting" pit scampered off and fought tried to bite someone else. I cited the source. Even an IDIOT such as yourself could call the LA Police and talk to them. Many of these drug dealers will have MANY pits on site. Even if they are not life threatening to an adult, they bite and can be annoying. So, they bring in a couple Presas and that is it for all the pits. I cited the OFFICIAL criminal deposition and court case. It was tried in California. If you don't like it, you sould a little bi polar. You believe in something that is not true and you can't support it and you become angry when others whip your butt. What can I say? Every scientific authority agrees that a wolf bite is many times more powerful than a large dog. The larger the dog, the harder the bite. Pits don't bite all that hard because they are small dogs. I hunt and I know animals. I don't deal with wolves...you have to have a special permit and I don't have one. I have known people that hunted them in Alaska where they can sometimes be hunted. I know that all hunters look for wolf sign because they want to protect their dogs. If you actually own a pit bull, you should know that they are not that powerful and they are a small dog. There's a huge difference. Ever try to control a Mastiff? I have never actually touched a Tosa, but I have seen them. They are monsters. I have cited English references that showed the pit was bred to be a SMALL dog. They wanted a fighting dog that would not be expensive to keep up. The average person knows most of this. It's just the crazies that won't accept reason. If you read the court case, they discussed the look of the Presa and the differences between the Presa and the pit. The Presa is immensely powerful compared to the pit. It's much larger too and bigger teeth. Mastiffs were called "dogs of war" by Shakespear and they were used against calvary ... they would rip soldiers off horses and kill them. Pits kill very young children, elderly, and the disabled. They have killed many in the US, but ALL have been very young kids, very old or disabled people.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Hmmm said, "just spoke to a retired lapd officer, i had asked him about the presas being used by the dept. to neutralize pitbulls, he laughed and said " the good old fashion bullet would be cheaper and more efficient, it wouldn't be in the depts. interests to use them for those reasons." HAHA! Yea, retired and senile. The court case is public record and the District Attorney mentioned this in the deposition. THat's a fact. You have a lot of this "unsupported experience" that contradicts facts and common sense, but lo. Haha! If you took three pit bulls, they wouldn't be able to kill a small deer for food. A small ten year old boy was attacked by three "killer" pits used by a drug dealer to protect his stash, and the three of these bad dogs together couldn't kill the kid. He was seriously injured in the attack. Think about wolves killing a moose and eating it. Think about pit bulls trying to kill a baby deer and not succeeding.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/19/2004
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Oh, the website for my last post is: http://bessasandackerman.com/p/0054.php Yea, the pits are hell on babies and children....and elderly and the disabled. "Man sentenced in attack by his pit bull on little girl A man who brought a pit bull to Salt Lake City's Liberty Park last year -- where it ripped the face of a 3-year-old girl -- might as well have brought a loaded gun, a 3rd District Court judge said Monday." http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Apr/04272004/utah/161051.asp The fact is that these dogs attack babies and small children and don't have the crushing power to kill. A wolf that attacks the head kills. The skull is crushed! The pit bull has small teeth that can inflict harm but they are not powerful enough to kill game to eat, except probably small rabits and hedgehogs! Even an 88 year of woman, bitten over 80% of her body and is just fine! Tell me something, do you really think a wolf would have the same effect? I don't think so. They kill moose and large game...pits kill babies and very small children and can't kill even medium game or most feeble humans. "Pit bull ravages 88-yr-old woman, covers 80% of body with bites AZ A boarder's pit bull severely mauled an 88 year old woman when she attemptedto give it water..." [Arizona Republicl] http://radio.weblogs.com/0107233/2003/06/06.html Hey, dide!!! What were you saying about "Killer Pits?" Do you mean, baby killer pits?

Answer by GreatdaneXXX
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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gosh...180 lb. wolf...sure. the facts are in jaw power pits, rots, akitas, cane corso, and American bulldogs...in fact, many mastiff or mastiff-like breeds jaw power is over 2000 almost 3000 psi. it's already been tested. and all the breeds (and more)i mentioned would beat 99.9% of the alpha male wolves out there. I saw a video in Japan where a big 130 Akita positivly took apart a grey wolf, who weighed about 100 lbs. and was considered large for a grey wolf male adult.The wolf barely got away from the Akita with his ass in tact. It finally broke free and was able to run away as the low to the ground, heavy rhino of an Akita couldn't catch him and typically Akita, didn't bother to chase much and even after all the fighting this Japanese bad boy acted like fighting the wolf was fun. He was wagging his tail and running around barking(which they usually don't get vocal)

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Actually, Neal used some good information and has some good insite into all this. There are some people out there with very poor judgement and they seem to have nonsense for brains. After the first post, they have read enough and they simply "know" what they want to know. Pits could not live in the wild. They couldn't hunt and kill game. I have seen deer seriously injure humans .. and wolves take them on every week. Pit bulls are not strong enough to kill even a deer. It's harder to kill a deer than an adult human, and yet pits can't kill healthy adult humans. They can barely kill children and elderly. For example, below SEVEN pit bull fighting dogs attack an 82 year old woman...she fought them off for ten minutes. Seven pit bulls attack, kill 82-year-old woman Saturday, December 13, 2003 Posted: 9:46 AM EST (1446 GMT) CITRA, Florida (AP) -- Seven pit bulls escaped from their owner's home and mauled an 82-year-old neighbor to death Friday. " http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/12/13/pitbull.attack.ap/ Two pit bulls combined couldn't kill a VERY elderly man in a wheel chair!!! "Two pit bulls attack elderly man in Palatine" By Michael Puente Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Thursday, May 13, www.dailyherald.com/news_story.asp?intid=3812015 Even small, older women can kick the ass of multiple pits: Pit bulls attack Oildale woman Monday afternoon, sheriff's reports indicate Deavers two pit bulls jumped the fence and attacked Dorita Mosley, 52, who was waiting at a corner for her daughter to get off the school bus. Elayne Hesse is credited with saving Dorita Mosley's life. She attacked the pit bulls and chased them off, and is critical of the way Deavers was controlling his dogs. " http://www.kget.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=059A83BE-7C72-4CFE-8756-BEACC14DC2F4 The fact is that many people in incapble of defending themselves. They will just stand there until they can't stand and then lay there as they are being killed. Other people fight and pits are easily run off. If you see a fight, the handlers easily handle them even when they are in a frenzy. Listen, don't hate the messenger, dude. Hate yourself for being so stupid. Hate yourself for having no common sense. If you have heard enough, that's the problem. You don't listen to facts.

Answer by In the know
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Firegimp, have you ever heard of a Catch dog. These are always pitbulls, bandoggs and American bulldogs, they are used in the sport of hog hunting. You know the wild hog which is a ferocious and extremely powerful beast, can weigh around 300lb. These catch dogs don't work well in packs because they are too competitive, and fights occur, so they are used on their own or in pears. Can you imagine the strength it would take to subdue such a creature, but what am i thinking, 'a pit bull can't even take down a small deer, what an absolute pointless fool you are firegimp. I think you need a hobby, or a girl, and not the ones in magazines gimp, ha ha. I can just imagine how much you are hated by people who are unfortunate to know you. I'm sure you were bullied though, but you probably deserved it gimp. Its funny that out of all the nonsense you have posted you haven't shown any level of intelligentsia, but then again why would someTHING that calls ITSELF firedragons have any to begin with? You can talk down the pit bull all you want but the fact is, its the best pound for pound fighter out of them all, and any alpha wolf would get its throat torn out by any gamebred Pit.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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i would love to know what motivates you firedragon.what exactly is the purpose of all this non-stop pitbull insults. why can't good people own this breed without someone assuming we are criminals,or that all of us use these dogs for the wrong reasons.the truth is many of these dogs are in good homes with responsible owners, but we still have to deal with people like yourself along with the people who use these dogs for the wrong reasons. it really makes me sick to think of how the general public looks at my dogs without knowing a thing about them.i have to walk my dogs in the woods just so people don't think im trying to intimidate them thanks to people like yourself. the attacks on children are horrible, but so is using these attacks as a weapon of your argument, because either way we argue (can they? or can't they?)we lose, and i would rather not even think about whether my dog can kill a child or not.thats a sick morbid thought that only someone who shouldn't own a dog would think of.what kind of person are you?really?

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Hey, wolves kill elk, moose, and even a 2000 pound bison. Oh, wait...seven pit bulls killed an 80 something woman!! Wow. Pit bulls are .... pretty awesome!!! Will new Yellowstone wolves kill bison? The three wolf packs from 1995 demonstrated well that they could kill elk, moose, deer, bighorn sheep, and mountain goats; but it was mostly elk they killed. This pack, the Half-way Pack (I don't know if it will be renamed the "Nez Perce" pack) was captured in British Columbia while feeding on a bison it had killed. http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/WillnewYellow.html Oh, if seven fighting pits can kill an 80 something year old woman, SIX wolves killed a full grown steer ... maybe even less, these were feeding. Wolves kill steer in Madison By PERRY BACKUS Montana Standard ENNIS � Jim Nelson nearly had wolves at his doorstep Tuesday morning. When feeding cattle in a nearby pasture in the Bear Creek area of the Madison Valley, Nelson was surprised to see six gray wolves feeding on a 650-pound yearling steer. That marked the fourth confirmed wolf kill in the Madison Valley in less than a week and local ranchers are hoping that federal officials can stop the depredation. http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews/2004/03/04/build/wildlife/wolfkills.php?nnn=5 They are going to kill three wolves to cut back some on the depredation if possible. However, even ONE wolf can bring down a large animal!!! Idaho wolves kill some cows -- the first Idaho wolf depredation in a long time 7-28-98 "The Post Register has reported that a yearling female from the Moyer Basin pack was involved in the depredation of a cow and three calves near the remote ghost town of Cobalt, deep in the Salmon River Mountains of central Idaho. It is possible that other members of the pack were involved. The 83-pound uncollared wolf was trapped right on top of the cow's carcass, according to Layne Bangerter of Wildlife Services in Boise. The female wolf was radio-collared and released near Fish Lake about 50 miles to the north in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness in an area with no livestock." http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/idahopredfirst98.htm For you punks that talk about fighting and have never even been hunting or in the country, MOST farmers KNOW that wolves beat hell out of any dog, herder or not. TWO wolves are terrorizing the countryside here!!! Wolves kill cattle in southern Wyoming Associated Press � Jan. 8, 2004 WAMSUTTER, Wyo. � Wolves are being blamed for killing several cattle in southern Wyoming, and federal officials have authorized killing up to two wolves thought to be involved. The beef cattle were killed by one or two wolves near Wamsutter, which is along Interstate 80 and at the southern end of the area wolves are thought to roam in Wyoming, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Two ranchers reported having cattle attacked by wolves. http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/news/2004/0108/1703592.html WOLVES KILL A COW AND MULE By S. C. Turnbo Mr. Dave Dunlap, who has lived in the Carrollton hollow in Boone County, Ark., since 1854, said to me one day at his home, "You say did I ever know of wolves attacking and killing large stock in the Carrollton hollow. If you call a mule and a cow large stock I have. Their ravages on stock was terrible. They would invade the stock lots and destroy sheep and calves. They would also attack hogs and kill or wound them before we would interfere and drive them away. But the incidents of their killing hogs, sheep and calves were tame affairs to what these vicious animals were able to accomplish when they wanted to. I well recollect that on a certain night a pack of wolves killed a white pided cow 3 years old in less than 200 yards of the Carrollton hollow schoolhouse and devoured half of her before they left. The cow belonged to my father Jim Dunlap and he sent word to the neighbors to tie up their dogs for he was going in on the wolves with strychnine. He put plenty of poison in the remaining carcass of the cow and in a few days we counted nine dead wolves lying in the near vicinity of the schoolhouse. A mule 3 years old that belonged to Jesse Dunlap and Jim Buckly was killed one night by wolves in the hollow one mile above the schoolhouse. The women found what was left of the mule lying in 300 yards of their cabin. Evidence showed that the mule had struggled hard against the attack from the hungry pack but was finally overpowered and killed and almost eaten up. The mule had been worked in the plow all day and was turned out at night to graze till morning and was killed that night. http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/turnbo/V11/ST312.html AS FOR THE DOGS KILLING THE HOGS, POST THE SITE. I DON'T BELIEVE IT. I have hunted hogs and the dog doesn't stand a chance. The hog rushed with its nose against the ground and it's too strong and powerful for the dog. If the hunter doesn't shoot, the dog is dead! Brain dude.

Answer by hmmmmm
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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your article talks about training dogs to locate, these are hounds, not the catch dogs.the catch dogs are released AFTER the hogs are located by the hounds.also it says nothing about training the dogs to stay away from the hog. that is an outright lie like all the others. if youd like a video contact chaos kennels of Illinois, they have dogs out of blue bubba aka beezlebub(greatest catch dog ever) catching hogs. why would they call them "catch" dogs if they had to be trained to stay away? you can also contact hogdog kennels, not sure but they should have video also.next your gonna bring up the protective vest again because you don't read my post but these vest are almost never used in the wild because they hinder the dog,they are only used in organized competitions in the south to show of there dogs ability"s. if you don't want to buy the tape call and ask for frank,he will tell you all about it,i wouldn't tell him your beliefs about pitbulls though if i were you!!!!you can get his number off of the web under his kennel name.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Only complete idiots own pit bulls. The lobby group for pit bulls showed three pit bulls across the country. They tried to demonstrate that the pits were not dangerous...some child set them off and they ended up mauling the child. Pit bull owners are stupid. The problem with some adults...there is something wrong with them. Only a fool would leave a child around a large animal that could do injury. It wouldn't make sense. Roy Horn also lied about Tigers. He had raised the tiger from birth and it tried to kill him. In 1987 and 88, pit bulls were responsible for 67% of the deaths in the US from dogs. After that, they were banned in most cities. ANYONE that thinks it's OK to have pit bulls around children is a complete and disgusting moron. It's not just that they think their little brain is better than the combined scientists of MOST countries in the WEST and many in the EAST ...that have outlawed pits in cities ...it's that even a dog that is not dangerous, a large dog such as a mastiff, should not be around children. The dog can kill them in a second. Pit bulls have been shown to be unpredictable. Anyone that says they aren't is a moron. Anyone that has a pit around children should be arrested for child endangerment. NO major insurance company will insure a house with a pit bull. So, you are a loser living in an apartment or you are taking an unnecessary risk. LOSER! You endanger your neighbors and everyone in your family. You are like the losers that take ecstacy ... one dose can damage your brain forever, and yet these losers rationalize. Losers always rationalize. There are a million dogs that people can own. Anyone that chooses a pit opens himself to scrutiny by police and the hostility of the neighbors and a risk to children. So, LOSER! What is wrong with you?

Answer by Muscleman
Submitted on 5/20/2004
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Pit bulls are pets and there's a reason why wolves can't be pets. Studies show wolves are highly more intelligent then domestic dogs, also wolves endurance is greater then dogs. Wolves go through days, sometimes weeks without food. Yet, they're strong enough to follow migrating herds and bring down ungulates twice or triple their size. Wolves kill other wolves, coyotes, bears, mountain lions, lynx and other large predators because of territory and food competition. Wolves kill domestic dogs regularly. Put a pack of pit bulls in the wild living under the same circumstances & conditions that wolves live under and I assure you, wolves will eliminate the pack of pit bulls for the same reasons it rids other predators. Pit bulls cannot survive in the wild with wolves because wolves will kill them. In the wild, Wolves have no tolerance for dogs including pitbulls. Wolves are born killers because it has to survive under extreme conditions. The wild is an unforgiven place unlike your home where pit bulls lives next to a fire place with food provided everyday for them to eat.

Answer by BIGDOG
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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so what a pack of wolves killed some cow.and ate her too!HOW GAME!I BET THE COW HAD SOME HUGE TEETH.A 11 MONTH OLD PIT BULL PUP KILLED A 2000LBS. BULL.THE OWNER SHOT HIM FOR IT.AND ITS ONE REASON I DON'NTRAISE PITS AND SELL THEM ANYMORE.HAVING 5 POUNDS OF MEAT TORN FROM ITS FACE THE BULL DIED FROM BLOOD LOSS AND SHOCK.THE FARMER AND OWNER OF THE PIT HAD LEFT WHEN HIS BULL BROKE INTO HIS FENCED YARD.HIS WIFE WAS AWAKENED BY THE BULL FALLING INTO THE HOUSE.WHEN SHE WENT OUTSIDE WITH A BROOM SHE BEAT THE DOG AND HE WOULD NOT QUIT.THE FARMER [OWNER OF THE PIT]SHOT AND KILLED THE DOG WHEN HE CAME HOME.I TRIED TO WARN THIS GUY NOT TO LET HIS DOG RUN AT LARGE BUT HE DID'NTLIKE TO ''KEEP A DOG UP''[THE FENCE AROUND THE HOUSE WAS TO KEEP STOCK OUT OF THE YARD NOT DOGS IN]

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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Hmmm says, "jacks says "they just don't go around and shot dogs" no they just let lose these trained attack dogs, right...lol. last year 33 dogs were shot and killed by the lapd, NONE were killed or even attacked by a police k9. call them yourself to verify this lier." Haha! Idiot! I cited the official site to find the court case. It's official and it's part of the record. You are the liar! Haha! Loser! Haha! punk. The fact is that these little dogs are weak, compared to wolves that kill and eat everything on the North American Continent. The court case clearly stated that NO PIT bull had ever killed a healthy adult, male or female. It also stated that Presa Canario were used to "neutralize" pits. You are the liar. Give me the telephone number you called and the person you spoke with....for 3 cents a minute, I will make that call too.

Answer by hmmm
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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lmao firedragons, we've been thru all that already, do you really want to look stupid again?i could state every lie included in your little story(well writin though)but we went threw this already.and in 87 and 88 it was rots and pitbulls combined not to mention pitbull is a general term like lab or retriever that applies to 7 breeds including the a.p.b.t.why is it don't you remember? come on man, why don't you stop and think about how bad your'e looking right now. i doubt one single person really respects what you say.anyway you have to do better then that for me to continue.i don't have time to keep discussing old news you were wrong on before. id reread everything before writing again to avoid more humility that you know you feel but won't admit.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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Muscleman is right. The pit bull does not have to kill animals four times his size to eat. Wolves can go a couple weeks without eating and still have their strength. Ever seen how a pit gets hot and pants a lot? I would not allow wolves around children. Their nature is savage. I would not allow pit bulls around children. They are small dogs, but they can be very excitable and turn deadly. As I have said, only a moron would own a pit bull. A complete loser. Call your insurance agent and ask him. People 20 or 30 years ago thought that the pit bull was imposing because they didn't understand animals. Now that people know the pit bull is just a little dog that can't fight a healthy adult, they are looking for stronger animals! "A Good Dog Ruined The breed is new to many people � including Dr. Randy Lockwood, vice president of research with the Humane Society of the United States. He said that the most common killers have changed over the years, with German shepherds being replaced by pit bulls in the 1980s, followed by rottweilers, and he said he feared that unless presa Canario breeders were careful, their dog could be the next. According to Lockwood, there was not a single fatal rottweiler attack in the United States from 1979 until 1992, but since then the dog has emerged as the leading killer. Like the presa Canario, it is a dog that was bred as a protector � intelligent and fiercely loyal � but people looking for an animal more imposing than the pit bull focused on bringing out the more aggressive side of its character."

Answer by From England
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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I've read through this site and there's something which keeps jumping out at me, something very stupid, something very annoying, yes you guessed, its that waste of breath Firedragons. Why are you describing the pit bull as if it where a jack russell terrier you idiot! Its world renowned for its fighting attributes, but you know this already, you are just a very sad individual who likes to get a reaction from people, anyway I'mdone writing about that TRAMP now. I just want say to Muscle man, who probably has a muscle between the ears, that its pointless saying that a pit bull couldn't survive in the wild because that obvious, brain dead! The wolf has evolved to do one thing, survive, much the same, the pit bull has been bred over generations to be a fighter, so there is no doubt a game pit would beat a wolf. There was a man near where i live who owned a bandogg, it was awesome, he no longer has it though because it was destroyed, cos it got over a fence into a field and tore out a poor cows throat, this is fact. And the dog in question was no bigger than an Irish pit bull.

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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England, you call Muscle an idiot, but your lack of knowledge surprises me. The pit is world renowned for being a killer of children and the infirm. That's the problem. It hasn't killed healthy adults. It ALSO is only known by fools as a "fighter" The PRESA and other big dogs were originally fought in England and people started breeding dogs to be small to save money. The pit is a SMALL fighting dog. So, the MAIN idea was to breed a small dog that would persistently fight so that the bets could continue. If they wanted tough fighters, they would have bred lions. No intelligent person doubts that the pit is not the toughest dog or even a danger to healthy adults (except by bites) I don't like being bit, but I have never seen a pit that would scare me .. they are too small; however, I have seen 200 plus pound dogs that would scare anyone. Obviously, the idiot that talks about pits being used to kill boars when they have trouble killing 80 year olds and children fight them off ... demonstrates the pit bull fantasy. The pit bull is an animal that is small and persists but is not powerful enough to kill wild animals (except small rabbits, squirrels, and so on); obviously, it's a lot harder to kill a deer than an old woman or a poodle. Some dogs in a pack might hunt a piglet down and kill it when it is the size of a rat, but only an idiot would believe that these animals can kill dangerous game when they often can't kill even children. They can't run well, they become very weak when they don't eat, and they are easily kicked out of the way. For example, an elderly woman was attacked by four pit bulls, thrown to the ground and bitten about the head. They ripped off her ear and part of her scalp, but didn't have the strength to penetrate the skull. They were just bites. She fought them off, got up and drove OFF!!! Now, how many wolves would let this happen? She never would have gotten up. Which has more PSI ... a wolf that bites through the spine of a large animal such as a steer or moose and crushes its skull or a four dogs that rip some skill? Haha! I guess I won't have to shoot the next boar, I will let the four pits bite off its ear and hope I can get my meat anyway. Haha! 4 Pit Bulls Maul FPL Meter Reader POSTED: 12:01 p.m. EDT June 3, 2003 UPDATED: 5:51 a.m. EDT June 4, 2003 PORT ST. JOHN, Fla. -- A 56-year-old Florida Power and Light meter reader is in critical condition after being attacked by several pit bull dogs as she walked through a Brevard County, Fla. neighborhood, according to Local 6 News. 4 Pitbulls Maul FPL Meter Reader Police said that the woman was mauled by the dogs in the 7000 block of Amsbury Road at about 8 a.m. Animal Control officials believe the dogs apparently jumped a 4-foot fence at a home in the neighborhood and then began biting her head. The victim was able to somehow break free from the dogs and ran to her truck, Local 6 News reported. She drove away from the scene but eventually stopped a short time later, got out of the truck and began to scream. Joe Fisher saw her and administered first aid. "I didn't want to lay her down because when I pulled her hair back on one side, her ear was completely missing and it was dangling in what hair she had left," Fisher said. Local 6 News reported that the woman lost her right ear and a large piece of her scalp. " http://www.local6.com/news/2245483/detail.html

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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Hahaha! Loser HMMMMMM....I have read the entire article. You just go from some pit bull site. THERE IS NO DOUBT that pits accounted for 67% of the deaths in 87 and 88 and this was used in the CDC article as well. You are dumb because the fact was, this "article" by the CDC was taken from scientific sources, was witten about bites (there are not many pits and so they have fewer bites than say...miniature poodles ... but they attack persistently and kill babies, the infirm, and small children. You just talk dude. Get on with your life and stop lying and living a fantasy. The pit is a baby killer, not a bison eater! It sure doesn't scar me and the owners are idiots. If a policeman sees one, he thinks drug dealer or moron.

Answer by Lockwood
Submitted on 5/21/2004
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I have read though this with much amusement.I have been involved in wolf study and breeding for 25 years.First of all wolves do kill large animals,but only to eat them.They do not take on the largest moose just to be killing something.Thats never their first choice.A lone wolf is not going to risk its health killing something that fights back hard.be it a dog,mule deer,moose or whatever.The jaws of a wolf are powerful,but dogs have been bred for aggressive traits for centuries.Two thousand years ago,people were taking mean dogs and chaining them to their front doors.This has been going on for generations.This is one of the major differences between wolf and dog.We have selected our dogs to be far more aggressive,and far less in control of their aggression,than their wild counterparts.By contrast humans have bred dogs to fight to the death.When dogfighters say that these dogs love to fight or that they're just doing what God intended that's nonsense.We have bred out the off button that controlled aggression.So if a wolf was to fight a fighting breed,it would have to be forced upon him.He would not prevail because his mental makeup is to survive,not do man's bidding.When wolves kill dogs in the wild it is a pack over territory.A lone wolf would not bother with a dog that it could'ntkill without much of a fight.Wolves and part wolves are only illegle in nine states.[to own]The real reason you never see wolves in the pit[in spite of being common in some areas]Is because they are not nearly aggressive enough to prevail.

Answer by hmmmm
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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lmfao, you fool. i see now what this is all about.this isn't about wolves,tosas, pitbulls, or anything else on here. this is all about a pathetic little man who loses every confrontation in life, and to make himself feel better about being such a worthless waste of sperm, he gets his thrills out of insulting his greatest fears over the Internet so the sissy little girl inside of him can't get hurt. the only thing you have proved is that there really is a bigger numbskull then george bush. but hey he's president so maybe someday if you try real hard maybe you could get a job.i really hope that no kids live around you, because i bet in your free time, you do things to them that give you even more "power thrills". you truly are a simple minded pathetic loser. tell me something, do you feel better yet tuff guy, or are you going to victimize some more animals and people. hey if you really want to talk pitbulls etc..start showing a little proof instead of your non-expert, second-person, quotes that anyone like yourself can put on the net. and yes the c.d.c. disagrees with you, along with every single government agency. i don't need to prove this, you prove yourself wrong by contradicting your own words later.but like i said this isn't about who's right,it's all about your own insecuritys. i see thru this act!!HAHA loser

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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There is a major misconception among the uninformed about various activities, including hunting and historical events such as "bear baiting." Somehow, people thought that the dogs would attack a bear chained or staked to a corner of the arena and then kill it; this is a major fapu! First of all, whimpy dogs such as pits are too small to do more than annoy a bear. So, the bear would kill the dogs all night and then retire. Dogs were plentiful and cheap. Bears were rare and precious. Later, braggarts and big heads such as pit bull owners would say how the pit bull would kill bulls and bears. The pit never killed the bear, and no number of pits would serve to bring the bear down. The bear could literally kil the dogs all night. The bull could be grabbed by the nose, but the dog could not kill him. This was up to the butcher. With bull baiting, the butcher would take portions of the meat after he had KILLED the bull (not the dog) and give to the crowd. "Bear-baiting Bear-baiting in the 17th century, engraving, 1796Bear-baiting was a popular entertainment from at least the 11th century in which a bear is secured to a post and then attacked by a number of dogs. In the most well known form there were purpose built arenas for the entertainment, called in England bear-gardens, consisting of a circular high fenced area, the pit, and raised seating for spectators. A post would be set in the ground towards the edge of the pit and the bear chained to it, either by the leg or neck. The dogs would then be set on it, being replaced as they tired or were wounded or killed. For a long time the main bear-garden in London was the Paris Garden at Southwark. In England, from the 16th century, many "herds" of bears were maintained for baiting. Henry VIII was a fan and had a pit constructed at Whitehall. Elizabeth I was also fond of the entertainment; it featured regularly in her tours. In 1575 a baiting display for her had thirteen bears, and when an attempt was made to ban baiting on Sundays she over-ruled Parliament. A variation was "the whipping of a blinded bear" and certain other animals were also baited, especially bulls but also on one curious occasion a pony with an ape tied to its back was baited and a spectator described that "...with the screaming of the ape, beholding the curs hanging from the ears and neck of the pony, is very laughable". With bulls, the animal's nose was usually blown full of pepper to enrage the animal before the baiting. The bull was often allowed a hole in the ground, into which to thrust his vulnerable nose and lips. A variant of bull-baiting was "pinning the bull"; specially-trained dogs would be set upon the bull one at a time, a successful attack resulting in the dog fastening his teeth strongly in the bull's snout. Attempts to end the entertainment were first made in England by the Puritans, with little effect. But by the late 17th century "the conscience of cultivated people seems to have been touched", but it was not until 1835 that baiting were prohibited by Parliament, a ruling that was soon extended across the Empire. Baiting is banned worldwide but can still be found in parts of the Middle East and Pakistan." Compare Bull-baiting, cock-fighting, dog-fighting "http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-3986.html

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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Fireretard, you'll find on the following links (Center For Disease Control) that the Rottweiler did kill a # of people for 1979 to 1996. I'm not sure where you get your info and what quack you'll be quoting next. These are real FATAL dog attacks listed by breed. Pit bull #1 Healthy adults were killed Rottweiler #2 German Shepherd #3 I know that you know better than these people and the bodies that were examined and the dogs that were caught. You I'm sure will profess that you "investigated several yourself and were right there when it happened". You don't know what the hell your talking about. list your email and i'llmake the arrangements for you to be the next agitator for Pudge. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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Fireretard, you'll find on the following links (Center For Disease Control) that the Rottweiler did kill a # of people for 1979 to 1996. I'm not sure where you get your info and what quack you'll be quoting next. These are real FATAL dog attacks listed by breed. Pitbull #1 Healthy adults were killed Rottweiler #2 German Shepherd #3 I know that you know better than these people and the bodies that were examined and the dogs that were cought. You I'm sure will profess that you "investigated several yourself and were right there when it happened". You don't know what the hell your talking about. list your email and i'll make the arrangements for you to be the next aggitator for Pudge. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/22/2004
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Idiot...the wolves in that area weigh about 40 pounds and these dogs have been used in the US ... the wolves eat them. You can call the wild life department. Listen ... the bottom line is that we were talking about pits anyway and bite force. The wolf is superior, there are NO scientific studies that show otherwise and all support this idea. Wolves vary in weight and strength. I don't know if even these wolves are beaten by that dog. I would doubt it. The bottom line is that wolves must kill every day for food. They fight among themselves as well ... to the death, and I have posted this too and my references. Haha! You just have a very childish way about you dude.

Answer by Steve
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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This site is a joke. Really i mean come on. You have some kids that dont know the whole story and some adults in which should not be talking to others on this site, yes i agree, give your input, and then leave. You shouldnt wait to see who responded to your answer. I live hear...In yellowstone. Tons of wolves rome the area. A fight broke out between a 23 year old mans pitbull and a wolf that was lost from the pack. (or looking for some food.) Anyway, the wolf and the pit fought. The pit was beginning to win for awhile. After the wolf was on the ground, he got back up, grabbed the wolf with his teeth on the dogs rib cage, broke them and then went for the neck, toar skin off of the dog and threw it to the ground. Lets say that the 23 year old man had to go another Vicinity. he was dog searching. i was there. The wolf won easily. So i looked upon the internet to look into it more. Pops up this site and there. i recorded the whole fight as well. Anyone have aim or some sort of talkative device from the internet, put me on your buddy list. my screen name in LostSoulLX, or protoss666 the last one is deadpool448. Ask for Me, Steve and then ask for the video. Do it between tree and seven. i will be gladly show you that the wolf won and the pit died. Though, it doesnt matter on the breed of dog. I mean i am sure that a Doberman Well trained and ready to go would kill a Pitbull, Proposing to the fact on how the dog is. THAT Wolf killed THAT Pitbull, though if another differently environmented Wolf would fight a pibtull. the results may be different. Though my 52 years on this Earth i have seen well 50 because you really cannot remember when you were about 2. I have seen three Dog fights and plenty of Wolf fights. From my OMPINION, in which i have a right to do. The Wolf Breed would kill the Stafforshire Terrier. For the fact that the Pitbull is trained, taimed and relies mainly on people for Food...Shelter...And other things of that sort. i will be back on later to see if anyone will ridicule my answer. Which i am sure from reading this site. I will be ridiculed. It is basic Human nature.

Answer by hmmm
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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STEVE-you missed the whole point of debates.and to GSD#1 i agree german shepards are great dogs but according to temperament testing the pitbull is far safer!!the pitbull is ranked 4th best,the german shepard is way on the bottom(sorry don't have time to look up number right now)also many bites are not recorded from shepards on bite statistics because police and government dogs are protected by law and there handlers can not be held responsible.i love pitbulls but i will never insult someone elses breed, what gives you the right to insult mine and say it is unsafe when the facts prove otherwise. no wonder us pitbull owners have a bad rep, not only do we have irresponsible people owning our breed, we have people who know nothing about them spreading untrue beliefs. it would be nice if you all didn't feel so insecure about a breed thats safer then almost all others.your opinions are welcome,but don't expect to get away with untrue pitbull propaganda on here.

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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This is for BIGDOG as well as the others who didnt believe me about that three legged alpha male kill the bull moose by himself. This is by Rick McIntyre from the book i stated before. "The East Fork Alpha Male is the Toughest Animal i've ever known. For at least seven years, his left front paw has been so badly sowllen that he can hardly use it. He lost part of that foot, most likely in a steel trap set just outside the park boundary where it is legal to take wolves(this is in Alaska). I often see him chase caribou. Knowing that he cant catch them if he gives in to his disability, he runs on his maimed foot and soot and somehow sprints at speeds close to that of mucdh younger, surefooted wolves. He endures what must be an extremely painful ordeal and often gets his prey. After a chase, he lies on the tundra and licks his injured, bleeding foot, sometimes for an hour, before he can go on . One summer day, as the limping alpha male is on a SOLO hunt, he finds a young bull moose. The bull outweighs him by four hundred pounds( most likely more since bull moose are much larger than only 550 pounds), but the alpha takes the big animal on by himself, challenging the moose to a fight to the death. Over the next thirty-six hours, he attacks the moose at least fourteen separate times. The moose fights back, stomping and kicking his attacker. The wolf's bad paw is hit during the counterattack and bleeds profusely. Each attack weakens the moose. Near the end of the drawn out battle, he wades out into a swift river channel. Jumping into the water, the wolf swims to his opponent. As they fight, the moose holds the alpha under water and nearly drowns him. The wolf slips away to rest, then comes back for one last round. By this point, the wounds on the bull have taken their toll. Weak for the loss of blood, the moose cant fight back any longer, and the wolf finishes him off. After the moose dies, other East Fork pack members arrive and feed alongside their leader." That wolf was pretty old, and he did die about a month or two later, and he did suffer some good battle wounds with the bull moose. This proves that a limping male can kill a BULL MOOSE by himself. I have seen and read plenty by myself of single wolves killing elk by themselves, and caribou pretty easily(the caribou that is). Elk are rough prey to fight, but it does happen with single wolves. I was reading an article on a website a few days ago that states why dont wolves hunt by themselves because they actually can, and they said the reason they live in packs because of scavengers, especially the ravens. They say at every wolf kill there are at least 50 ravens, and the wolf can eat his fill at first, but the ravens will finish it off before he came back so he would have to hunt by himself alot more frequently. Hope this is some good info.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/24/2004
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GSD? Maybe you didn't see that the German Shepherd Dog is #2 for UNPROVOKED BITES on humans, and #3 for FATAL UNPROVOKED attacks on humans. I don't know where German Shepherd owners get it. You can't argue with the FACTS from the "CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL". These facts are absolute and are the result of 30 years of investigation and evidence. Here I'll give you the links again, I notice that when anyone goes to these links they tend to shut up! You were right about one thing though, YOUR "GSD" is #2 in something. "UNPROVOKED ATTACKS ON CHILDREN". Go to these links to the CDC and scroll down to see what else your GSD does often and well! http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?action=search&queryText=dog+bite http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/25/2004
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who cares who you talk to are not.a 600lbs. moose is not a bull moose.wolves may hunt alot of stuff to eat and survive.but that bigger animals are not killed by a single wolf,is a fact.they have trouble with smaller deer by theirselfs.and sometimes get their heads kicked in.whatever you are bringing up i already know.it does not prove that a wolf can win agaist a fighting dog.if you want to read the truth about it go to -which is the best fight dog-read what ''big d''says because this guy is a for real been around dog fighter.and you will have to agree that even a pit dog fan says what the pit has trouble winning against in these kind of matches.also as he states the pit dog men tried wolves and crossed wolf years ago. there is lots of money to be made by winning in these pit contests,thats something you have to be aware of.its all been tried before!

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/25/2004
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WELL!!!!! I can find a "BOOK" that will say "in fact" that little green aliens walk among us cloaked as humans. That doesn't mean anything, nor is it true. What happened to all the facts people? I didn't think that GSD would answer that! Steve, well I went to AIM and nothing. From what I understand about the "Video" the Pit wasn't a game Pit and was actually a cross-breed of pit and retriever and a pet. Nor was the dog of any size or ferocity. As you can see in all of my earlier answers, I do my homework. I don,t think that any 'ol pit can take a wolf. I have a 130# protection trained "American Bull" that I have seen fight a 65# "game pit" He almost killed the pit, easy. In the end the pit was put down. But, he did get into it with another pit that was about 100#. They probably would have killed each other. I also think that anyone who says "American Pit bull'sare Small dog" are idiots and haven't any true knowledge about the breed! 90, 100, and 120lbs pits are not unusual in the breed. See Mike Harlows book "K9 Bodyguards" you'll see several pits over 100# ++. It will also give specific lines, breeders and kennels producing these dogs. Now then back to my point of which I have several. There are any # of American Bulls that are on video taking down 2000# Brahma bulls, wolves might have taken but not on any real record. "A WOLF" will NOT win or take a 2000lbs. bull of any kind. The American bull and boxers have though. Although the dog usually does NOT do this, it has been witnessed and videoed. I don't think that in most cases any of us know what would happen in a fight between any WOLF and PIT BULL, it totally depend on the animals involved. It's obvious that wolf hybrids have been killed time and time again in these fights. Hybrids genetically 98% wolf. BIG CHIEF, ya right. your not fooling anyone. We give you nother name.It be dummy.You not smart for chief red man.you be suckling firedragon and firewater much. you shoot arrow into forehead. you fall from horse. why you so dumb. White man say you full of it.

Answer by mromero
Submitted on 5/25/2004
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WELL!!!!! I can find a "BOOK" that will say "in fact" that little green aliens walk among us cloaked as humans. That doesn't mean anything, nor is it true. What happened to all the facts people? I didn't think that GSD would answer that! Steve, well I went to AIM and nothing. From what I understand about the "Video" the Pit wasn't a game Pit and was actually a cross-breed of pit and retriever and a pet. Nor was the dog of any size or ferocity. As you can see in all of my earlier answers, I do my homework. I don,t think that any 'ol pit can take a wolf. I have a 130# protection trained "American Bull" that I have seen fight a 65# "game pit" He almost killed the pit, easy. In the end the pit was put down. But, he did get into it with another pit that was about 100#. They probably would have killed each other. I also think that anyone who says "American Pit bull'sare Small dog" are idiots and haven't any true knowledge about the breed! 90, 100, and 120lbs pits are not unusual in the breed. See Mike Harlows book "K9 Bodyguards" you'll see several pits over 100# ++. It will also give specific lines, breeders and kennels producing these dogs. Now then back to my point of which I have several. There are any # of American Bulls that are on video taking down 2000# Brahma bulls, wolves might have taken but not on any real record. "A WOLF" will NOT win or take a 2000lbs. bull of any kind. The American bull and boxers have though. Although the dog usually does NOT do this, it has been witnessed and videoed. I don't think that in most cases any of us know what would happen in a fight between any WOLF and PIT BULL, it totally depend on the animals involved. It's obvious that wolf hybrids have been killed time and time again in these fights. Hybrids genetically 98% wolf. BIG CHIEF, ya right. your not fooling anyone. We give you nother name.It be dummy.You not smart for chief red man.you be suckling firedragon and firewater much. you shoot arrow into forehead. you fall from horse. why you so dumb. White man say you full of it.

Answer by bigDOG
Submitted on 5/26/2004
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some pits are known as ''hardbiters'' because they can kill another pit quickly.but these hardbiters are sometimes beaten by a game dog with abilty.but if you have a game hardbiter with abilty thats a ''pit ace'' the very best.so those dogs are at the very top of the matched pit bulls.they will kill a non pit bull in very short order.if you fought a wolf against one of these dogs the wolf would stand no chance.most other pit bulls do not stand a chance against one.these dogs are like the champions of all the fought pit bulls.just as humans have top champ boxers these dogs are proven number one by doing it.so if you want to talk b.s. when it comes down to whipping the pit bull with a non pit this is what you would face.

Answer by Lawrence
Submitted on 5/26/2004
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I have noticed something about this website. I have also read the entire thing. I waited to get strong input. "What has more psi a wolf or a pitbull?" There is really no way to tell the PSI of either animal. Some of the answers here are about who would win in a fight. The answer is both. Take these two animals as an experiment. A wolf would be able to survive outdoors longer than a Pitbull would. For the fact of wolves have been doing so for so long. Thats the only thing that they know how to do. A pitbull would be able to protect you from a mugger, or a thief entering your home. Because dogs are trainable which Wolves are rarely seen. it depends on the dog to beat a wolf and a wolf to beat a dog. Some wolves can beat dogs, some dogs can beat wolves. it depends within them. You cant always say that a pitbull can beat every Great Dane and every Great Dane can beat a Doberman. It depends within the dog. ill get back to this site. Im sure a lot of people will