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what has more psi a wolf or pit bull?

<< Back to: rec.pets.dogs: American Pit Bull Terriers Breed-FAQ, Part 2/3

Question by Christian
Submitted on 9/15/2003
Related FAQ: rec.pets.dogs: American Pit Bull Terriers Breed-FAQ, Part 2/3
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what has more psi a wolf or pit bull?


Answer by ben
Submitted on 11/11/2003
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there isn't really an accurate way to measure a dog bites psi. but if i had to guess i'desay the pit

 

Answer by burb83
Submitted on 11/11/2003
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A wolf's bite packs a punch of 1500 pounds of pressure per square inch which is meant to snap an antelope or elk leg in half.  A domestic dog even an American Pit Bull terrier can't even measure up to half of that at about 250 pounds of pressure per square inch.  A Macaw (parrot) has a bite of 350 pounds of pressure per square inch which can break a broomstick in half.

 

Answer by demecleze
Submitted on 12/17/2003
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There are no studies for such things.

But Irish wolfhounds kill wolves by themselves very easily.

You can somewhat tell bite strength by feeling the back of the skull when your dog is chewing a bone.

My pit has a fair amount of muscle, my friends shepard has fairly little and my airedale has just as much as the pit.

But the pit has major skull thickness and especially size, making its head hard to move when its clamped down and makes the dog hard to knockout. I guess good for bull baiting?

 

Answer by pitbull_connor
Submitted on 2/1/2004
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Considering pit bulls were bred specifically for fighting and bear/bull baiting their bite exceeds a wolf bite by far. Wolves do not snap legs in half, they tear flesh from the bone.  They also don't jump up and latch onto animals to bring them down. I pit bull latches itself onto a bull or bear as it's being tossed around like a rag doll. Releasing grip as they please. Ever seen a pit bull hang from a spring pole? They've been recorded as hanging for 30 minutes!

A wolf has not been bred for jaw power either, they have no need for it. A pit bull has been bred for this feature.

Psi is a hard thing to measure in a bite. Depends what, and why the animal is biting and the drive involved. No accurate tests have been performed.

 

Answer by moondog
Submitted on 2/6/2004
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my rotweiller mix destroys any pet toy kong ball- xlarge-tennis ball etc..my pit will play for days with these things untill danzig, my rot gets ahold of them,you figure it out..

 

Answer by Nathan_ProfPitBreeder
Submitted on 2/17/2004
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The APBT is the strongest dog in the world per its size, domestic or wild. It also holds the record on bite and lock-jaw also in wieghted sleigh pulling.
A wolf is generic name of a lupus breed. 'Wolfs' work as a unit to kill prey, if singled out they are weak and vunerable. And for people who don't know anything about dogs here is a simple way to determine jaw strength... look at the width proportion to its over all size. i.e. Pit Bull- Stout and wide for its smaller body & Wolf- long and slender for it medium agile body.

 

Answer by babayaga
Submitted on 2/27/2004
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The wolf is widely reported to have a bite strength of up to 1,500 pounds per square inch (psi). Wolves can crush deer bones and can rip open the rump of a running moose, cutting through 4 inches of thick hair and tough hide. Dogs usually have a bite strength of around 450 psi. Jaw strength is reduced in the dog by a less acute angle around the zygomatic arch. The zygomatic arch is the "cheek" bone; an arch of bone on the side of the skull. This difference in angle is a typical difference between wolf or coyote and dog skulls. It allows for a larger, and therefore stronger, muscle in wolves and coyotes. However, the American Pit Bull Terrier/ American Staffordshire Terrier is sometimes reported to have equal jaw strength as wolves.
What does a bite pressure in psi really mean? According to Bell Labs, humans can bite at about 150 psi, a rat at 7,000 psi. But this doesn’t mean that the rat is stronger than the human and could crush our bones. It merely shows how much pressure is applied relative to the area where the teeth make contact. It should be noted, that people are expecting the bite of a wolf or a Pit Bull to be especially strong and damaging and will therefore present data in this way.

 

Answer by John
Submitted on 3/21/2004
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It's not even close.  Pit Bulls have much stronger jaws then wolves do.  That's the way they are built.  And a Hyena has stronger jaws than both of them.  Wolves don't bite through elk's leg bones, they grab on, tear at, and hurt the animal and the pack swarms over them to take the elk down.  Talk PSI all you want, the easiest way to tell who's stronger is in a fight.  When wolves and Pits are rolled, Pits break free from the Wolf's hold, but the Wolf cannot break free of the Pit once the Pit gets ahold of them.  That's why Pits win almost every fight they have with a wolf, even if the wolf is twice their size.  It's simple: Fighting Dog versus Hunting Dog in a fight.......the fighting dog wins.  Another thing, the Irish Wolfhound of today is NOT the dog that rid Ireland of wolves.  The old Irish Wolfhound was a Coursehound that ran, tired and killed wolves in teams or at least pairs, not one on one.  That dog is extinct, today's Wolfhound came from Great Danes and Borzoi's being crossed.  They don't hunt Wolves at all now.  If you want to see a dog that's actual job is to kill wolves, 1 on 1, and does so every time, look up a Causasian Owcharka on the internet.

 

Answer by joel
Submitted on 3/25/2004
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Ha ha, it sounds like people like talking about stuff that they know nothing about!
Blurb83 gets a star and a half just to blow smoke- he has his information reversed!
The pit bull has the stronger bight out of the wild wolf kingdom hands down.  Just because your dog has the name wolf in it does not make him part of the wild wolf category.  All dogs came from wolves adapting to mans needs and also bred by man to achieve certain results.  The pit bull had been breed with a type of bulldog
to get its great bite power and also bred with various terriers for its lightning like quickness.  
    I found a great site on pit bulls it is
BIGHTCLUB.com  it has some good free movies on info for pit bull owners.

 

Answer by Neal Hall
Submitted on 3/25/2004
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First off, wolves are WILD animals.  Its kind of silly any arguing this, but there wouldnt be a match.  Wolves kill to survive, and some of the most fiercest animals on earth.  Wolves kill each other on border disputes, as well have fights with bears, mountain lions, and wolverines, sometimes winning or losing.  A single wolf against a single pit bull wouldnt be a match.  The wolf would easily take it out.  Wolves can also break moose or elk bones in a few bites.  You guys should read up on wolves and watch some videos on them.  Its kind of silly thinking pit bulls jaws are like a damn alligator or something, they are a Domestic DOG!  I have even heard hideous stories about pits can beat a mountain lion or wolverine as well.  whats next, they can beat a tiger.  

 

Answer by Bill
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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I here alot of talk about APBT's having such powerful jaws. And I would agree they are for there size exceptional. However lets not forget where these dogs come from! I here no mention of the Bull Mastiff or American Bulldog actually the original Old English Pit from which PBT's were created. It is said an AB Mac the Masher was able to crush a bovines Knee. I believe the thing which makes PBT's seem so powerful is not the fact there bite is powerful. But do to mechanics, heart & tenacity, they have the ability to bite and hold on just as the AB or many other simular type dogs.

 

Answer by dell
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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i have been studying pitbulls all my life and i figured out that a pit bull as the strongest bite of all dogs.  My buddy had a german shepard that was 2 years old and i had a 6 month old pit he was about 60 to 65 lbs and they were playn for a while and finally they got into it and my pit took it down like it was nothn. u cant compare wolves with pits becuase of different back rounds, one is a hunting and the other is made for fighting!!!

 

Answer by youpeoplearestupid
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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ok i just read all of these comments about who has the stronger bite. First off like many people have already said there is NO WAY you can accurately measure bite strength. Secondly all you rednecks that think you pit bull is some kind of god is totally ridiculous!! I mean seriously you really can not compare a domesticated dog against a wild animal. Yes pits were bred to fight dogs, they were bred to fight other DOMESTICATED dogs....much like other pit bulls. The whole bull baiting thing in most cases es actually in all cases es it was more than one pit bull aginst a bull. And bear baiting almost always ended up with the dog or dogs being killed. As for wolves everyday there existence depends on killing and surviving. Do the math people and stop using your stupid one time stories about how your dogs killed another dog that looks like a wolf. Its ignorant! People like you who post comments on here and talk out your ass about what you think you know, it truly is pathetic. Here is an idea go read a book maybe even watch some educational television, talk to some who does not encourage dog fighting or comparing the two. Those are the people who are making dog breeds better and better everyday, and helping to preserve nature.
And to all you stupid machos out there I hope your nasty inbred pit latches on to your genitals and does not let go.

 

Answer by Neal Hall
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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Listen to that last guy that just posted, he seems to understand as well.  like i said, Wolves are wild animals, Pit Bulls are DOGS.

Also, all dogs evolved from wolves(NOT PITBULLS), and they became DOMESTICATED!

also, pitbulls are not raised for fighting, and actually only until the 70's were the pit bulls excepted as the next best fighting domesticated dog, Dobermins were known as the best before that.  

 

Answer by Bill
Submitted on 4/1/2004
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"Remember me I'm a Doberman I used to be somebody"!

I don't know what all the hoopla is about PBT,s anyway. My buddy and I raise AB's he has one about 130lb. One day we working our dogs catching wild bore. An acquaintance drives up with a large PBT in his truck, we warned him not to let him out of the truck, because we new he was dog aggressive. Well he did and my buddies AB grabbed that sucker by the head and ran off with him. Took thirty minutes to find them and make him turn it loose. Needless to say he doesn't bring his dog over anymore.

You know, as sadistic as man kind is we have fought just about one of everything against something else. I wonder if there is any documented results from an actual pit fighting a wolf. I realize wolves are wild and depend on their killer instinct for survival. However, wolves are pack oriented animals, they almost never kill prey one on one, rabbits or small varmints being the exception to the rule. It's done as a group to avoid injury. Even if they fight one another it almost never results in mortal wounds to each other.

 

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/7/2004
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THIS IS THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND. SELF-APPOINTED "EXPERTS" SPECULATING AS TO THE OUTCOME OF AN EVENT THAT THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE. EVERY POST HERE EVIDENCES SOME EMOTIONAL COMMITMENT TO AN UNKNOWN OUTCOME.  THE RESULT?  CONTRADICTION.  OPPOSITE VIEWS, EXPRESSED WITH CONVICTION. NO CONCLUSIVE INFO. ON THE TRUTH.

 

Answer by SKEPTIC
Submitted on 4/7/2004
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PEOPLE WHO BRAG ABOUT PITBULLS ARE LIKE PEOPLE WHO ALWAYS CHEER FOR THE FOOTBALL TEAM OR BASKETBALL TEAM THAT IS FAVORED TO WIN.  THERE'S A LOT OF EGO INVOLVED.  HERE IS ONE DEFINITION OF ANIMAL CRUELTY: PUT A PITBULL INTO A FIGHTING RING WITH A JAPANESE TOSA FIGHTING DOG, AND THE PITBULL WILL BE DEAD IN 5 MINUTES.  EVERY TIME!  CHEW ON THAT.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Indian in Idaho North
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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Great Spirit tells me here are answers, so no one need harm beasts to prove points.  Alpha wolf leader of pack can defeat your pit bulls 4 out of 5 times because---wolf has learned over centuries how to feint to side to avoid grizzly swipe, or cougar swipe, wolf knows which direction to move before opponent comes.  If the pit bulldog gets bite hold on wolf under throat, wolf fails, or on side of neck.  Dog cannot bite back of wolf neck due to wolf stands taller---so, wolf goes for back of dog neck, dog dies.  Wolf teeth are longer, penetrate deeper.  Jaw power is likely not much different, except to say, wolf meant to crush bones, pit dog to hold a bite both take force.  Wolf knows how to move to avoid elk hooves, wolf has training advantage of wilderness dog lacks.  Authorities agree wolf is almost always more intelligent than domestic dog.  Largest wolf on record was Lobo, King of Currumpaw, north New Mexico, 1893, 207 lbs known as the Giant Cattle Killer.

No dog and no wolf can match a healthy cougar, and Indian Devil the wolverine make them all run away till he meets grizzly then he spray bear with musk worse than skunk, for this only reason bear will not fight wolverine.

 

Answer by McHale
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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Most Likely Know one here has even been around a pure wolf. I have. I had a chance to pet one and even
feed one. Let me tell you, as much as I like dogs the difference is like night and day. As cute as a wolf looks on Discovery channel or a magazine they're another story in up close. Most of you on this panel will most likely pee in your pants.
  Listen to Neal.

 

Answer by Bill
Submitted on 4/8/2004
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In response to the to the Japanese Tosa comment. There is no comparison in the way these dogs are fought. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

These fights are staged much as a Sumo wrestling match.

No sanctioned Tosa-Ken fight is to the finish. The time limit is 30 minutes and typically the fights last no longer than ten minutes. Any barking or growling disqualifies the dog. The winning dog is not necessarily the one to attack more often or more viscously. Victory depends solely on the spirit of the fighter. If a dog has been dominated by the other dog for the entire duration of a fight, the winner still has yet to be decided. Failure in the fight is decided if the dog whines, groans, or gives up by attempting to run away from the other dog or  due to sheer fatigue, is unable to get up again.

 

Answer by TOSA IS KING
Submitted on 4/9/2004
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Web posted Wednesday, October 7, 1998

Japan's Tosa fighting dogs go for the throat in canine sumo




KATSURAHAMA, Japan (AP) -- The contenders were itching for a fight.

They bolted up the path to the ring and snarled at each other with teeth bared. Then the bell rang -- and they lunged at each other's throats.

This was no fight between ordinary heavyweights: It was a brawl in a cherished Japanese tradition, endorsed by no less than the emperor himself: dog fighting.

At the center of the sport is the feared Tosa -- a dog so powerful that it is banned in some places.

Animal lovers might balk at the violent tradition, but fans of the Tosa gush about its fighting prowess in terms usually reserved for thoroughbreds or fine wine.

"A good dog is very special, maybe only one in a thousand," said Masaru Hirose, owner of the Tosa Fighting Dog Center in Katsurahama, 600 miles southwest of Tokyo.

Dog fighting in Japan goes back to the 14th century, but Tosas were bred to their current form -- with vice-grip jaws, a powerful chest and a nasty temper -- in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

The dogs are impressive. With a short brown coat, full jowls and a stout, muscled physique, the dogs can reach 200 pounds and a height of 26 inches. A champion can sell for tens of thousands of dollars.

The rare canine is prized as strong, loyal guards by dog-lovers in the United States, and fans have formed the International Tosa-ken Association.

But Tosas are also fighting machines.

"Clearly, it is a dog for only very experienced dog-handlers," reads a description put out by WorldClassDogs Inc., adding that the breed is banned in Britain. "It is powerful, stoic and relentless."

The Japanese government has tightly controlled the fighting tradition. Gambling is now banned, and Hirose'sdog center along the rocky south coast of Shikoku Island is the country's only licensed fighting center.

Periodic title matches, however, can be held elsewhere, and Tosa owners are all over the country. Prized fighters are given the same titles as venerated sumo wrestlers, with top dogs given the "yokozuna," or grand champion ranking.

In a match put on for reporters at Hirose'scenter, the dogs bolted across a bloodstained canvas and attacked each other at the throat, standing up on their hind legs.

The dogs -- scarred on face and legs from earlier matches -- growled and salivated as they sank their teeth into the loose, almost elastic folds of fur around each other's necks.

At title matches -- held at makeshift rings around the country -- more than 100 owners and trainers watch as top Tosas duke it out in bouts that can run as long as 30 minutes.

A dog loses when it yelps or tries to flee. Judges declare winners and hand out rankings.

Though dogs are often hurt, owners say they don't let the fights get out of hand. With good reason: Tosas are expensive to buy, keep and train.

Officials at the dog center say they've never heard of a Tosa being killed in a match.

But pulling apart the fiery canines can be difficult. At the end of the match at Hirose'scenter, two trainers leapt into the ring and grabbed the dogs by the tail as a third trainer jutted a flaming torch in their faces.

The isolation of the sport's lone training center on Shikoku has kept it off the radar of Japan's tiny animal rights movement.

"It's only held in a limited, regional area, and people -- especially young people -- don't really know about it," said Taki Hiramatsu, at Animal Refuge Kansai in Osaka.

Despite the gambling ban, Tosa fighting can involve big money. Hirose'scenter displays an ornate dog house built for the 1989 visit of Emperor Akihito -- at the cost of $1 million.

The center houses rows of gift shops and a museum and is a popular stop for sightseeing buses. Five-minute fights for tourists are held every day as long as at least 21 customers show up.

Visitors are treated to the sight of a "yokozuna" fighter in full regalia, his body draped with elaborately quilted cloths and a thick white rope tied around his neck. The short brawl between two other dogs follows.

The center apparently saves the best fighters for title bouts, however. At a recent match for tourists, one of the dogs barely fought back, despite high-pitched cheers from two children on tour with their mother.

"It was OK," said Shinsuke Konno, 26, who drove six hours from Kyoto to see the coast and watch a match. "I thought the fight would be more violent."
















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Answer by hatesstupidity
Submitted on 4/11/2004
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How about questions like, "Who do you think can bend raw iron easier, Superman or Spiderman?". That is the mentality of this question...

 

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/11/2004
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What Bill has said is correct.  However, the Tosa HAS faced the PB in the fighting pit. These encounters ARE NOT sanctioned, but that is beside the point. In every such match THAT I AM AWARE OF, the TOSA prevailed.
Nevertheless, I still think that the PB is the most FEROCIOUS and TENACIOUS of the dog breeds.
Given the large investment in owning and training the Tosa, they are not wasted on PB's because that's not where the big money is.
Admittedly, we have strayed a bit far from the original question, "which has the greater P.S.I., the Wolf bite or the P.B. bite?" I guess that I began to lose interest after the first few responses, IE.:
1. "there is no accurate way to measure the P.S.I."
vs.
2. "the P.S.I. of the wolf's bite is 1,500 lbs."

Given the vast technology that exists today, it is difficult to believe that we cannot measure the p.s.i. of the bite of ANY animal that we wish to know about.  It is apparent that there isn't sufficient interest to do so, however.
One last thought: the p.s.i. of the bite does not translate into "who would prevail in a fight."
I hike in the mountains, AND I CARRY A BIG GUN!

 

Answer by johntrout
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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You can balk that technology should be able to measure psi on a bite but check the records...  the concensus is "there is no accurate way to measure bite psi" you can however measure the size of the holes in the skull where the jaw muscles go and get a general idea, however I haven't seen any documentation of measurements on dogs.

 

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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All of you PETA members/wolf lovers are so in tune with nature it's unbelievable.  The closest you fags have been to the outdoors is the new rock climbing wall at your health club.  For those of us who know the real deal (not those of you with the BMW and the Greenpeace Jacket) the wolf has NEVER (yes, I said NEVER) beaten a Pit Bull in any documented fight.  The reason you will probably never see a fight between the two is because nobody is stupid enough to put a "cur" like a wolf in a fight with a game bred Pit Bull.  Nobody except you, I guess.  Then you would have another dead wolf to cry about.  And for you Tosa lovers out there, dream on.  Every once in a while the Tosa has won, but fights between the 2 are very rare nowadays, the Pits the Japanese use are usually not the best quality, and more often than not, the Pit still wins.  Tosa's are too slow and tire too fast most of the time.  A Tosa would, however, defeat/kill a wolf if the two ever fought.  Many dog breeds were developed to protect flocks of domesticated animals from wolves (mastiff types and derivatives) and they did (and still do in Central Asia) actually kill wolves.  These breeds, although tougher than a wolf, cannot defeat Pit Bulls in fights, so why do you think a wolf could?  Hunting/killing and combat/fighting are very different abilities.  Don't believe me, I don't expect you pocket protecting pseudo-nature freaks to understand.  Just go rent Call of the Wild and watch what happens.  And STOP talking about things you know nothing about.

 

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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dear mr. johntrout.  this is precisely one of the points that i was trying to make, ie.,
since no technology currently exists with which we can accurately measure the psi of a bite, why do we continue to see claims on the internet that the wolf's bite is 1,400 psi or 1,500 psi?  are the people who are asserting these claims making it all up, or do they know something that we don't?

also, i think that a wolf would have almost NO CHANCE against a trained PB.

 

Answer by Bjorn
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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I consider myself fortunate to have witnessed two wolf kills, one in Yellowstone national park where a single wolf took down a full grown elk all by it's lonesome.Northern Alberta thee wolves killed a bull moose, one wolf had hold of the face,for twenty minutes. this wolf held tight,being lifted off the ground and shook like a chew toy, never releasing it's grip until the moose was down.This was no dog holding onto a rope dangling from a tree.Wolves have what's called a flight or fight response,when in unfamiliar territory , and wolves are very territorial, they prefer flight or escape.So to put a wolf into a pit with a dog it's instinct is to escape not fight.Advantage probably to the dog.If you drop a pit bull into the territory of a wolf no contest the wolf will kill the dog.Instinct to protect it's territory makes the wolf a formidable fighter . Response to John you probably have never been ten feet into the wild your entire life. p.s. Jack London books are fiction.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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how can wolf escape, or run, if in pit, or cage?

piy bull man tell me of dog in Colorado who make cougar flee

answer--maybe, but he says dog "needed some stitches," he says cat is coward

no, cat is not coward, cat fight to eat or protect, dog bred to fight only

let dog corner cat, blood flow out of dog from all over from cat swipes

there is something wrong with people who want to prove their dog can be bully boy over wild animals

rancher in Texas panhandle say pit cornered 5 coyotes in chicken coop, coyotes worked together to destroy dog

sometimes 1 dog not enough to guard livestock

no solution to dog vs wolf argument---only, whuch gets control bite hold first

 

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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who would win between a wolf and an alligator?   answer: alligator

who would win between a PB and an alligator?
answer:  alligator

who would win between an armored tank and a PB?  answer:  the PB  (the tank would run out of gas, but the PB never would).

until someone actually puts a wolf into a fighting pit with a game-bred PB, maybe it's time to end this dialogue.

 

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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Bjorn, cool name, do you tell the guys at the health club you're a viking?  I don't care what you SAY you saw from your Minivan as you drove through Yellowstone, for a wolf to take down an adult elk by itself there was something wrong with the elk.  BTW, watching Wild America videos doesn't count for what you've seen.  And yes, wolves do hunt and kill moose, so what does that prove?  Every animal, including us, you jackass, has a flight or fight response.  That means nothing.  So, here's what's important:  fight them in a Pit and you get a dead wolf; have them fight in your back yard and you get a dead wolf; put a wolf over a dead moose and let a Pit go after it and you get a dead wolf.  You get the theme, here?  It's not even close, wolves are not built or bred for the purpose of fighting, they stand about as much of a chance as a german shepherd would, which is none.  PS, the story maybe fiction, but the fight in the movie was not.  

 

Answer by Neal Hall
Submitted on 4/12/2004
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This John guy has to be either a dumb teenager or and immature adult who doesnt know anything.  First off, The Jack Landon film was a MOVIE, a damn movie man.  if you base your facts on movies, you have a lot to learn in life kid.  I lived in yellowstone national park for three months and while i was there, i studied and searched for wolves on my time off. I have seen a wild wolf run right in front of my car one time, one of the coolest things i have ever seen.  There are a good amount of differences from wolves and dogs, and there is a saying that wildlife biologists use saying that a Wolf is NOT a Dog, but ALL dogs come from wolves.  BJORN made a good post putting a wolf in a ring around a bunch of people would be worthless.  Wolves have a natural fear of humans and are very skittish around humans.  They say your very lucky to ever see a wild one.  You should do some studying up on wolves before you make assumptions.  They are books you can read on wolves killing animals and there is a record of a single, one legged alpha wolf killing a moose after 3 days of consistent attacks.  That is damn amazing.  moose are huge and are very lethal, and have been known to injure and even kill humans.  but in all, i know the truth to this argument in which some of yall dummies think a domesticated dog is going to kill a predator of the wild.  There is also another post somewhere where some people think a pit can kill a wolverine, FREAKING AMAZING PEOPLE.  can they kill a gorilla, tiger, bear, etc. as well.  cant wait for the answers on this.  

 

Answer by Fred
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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I was watching the Discovery Channel the other night. It's the one where they have WHAT IF THESE TWO ANIMALS FOUGHT. That night it was WOLF vs. COUGAR. They measured bite strength by using the animal's skull and measuring the holes in the jaws where the muscle mass would be. Then after certain calculations, they got the bite strength. A full grown cougar had a bite strength of 300 pounds, whereas a full grown alpha male wolf had a bite strength of 500 pounds. But these animals usually charge at you when they bite, so they measured the bite with momentum. The wolf had I think 1400 pounds, and the cougar only 8-900 pounds. They mentioned that cougars are only deliver 80 pounds more of pressure than a human, so that would make us at 220 pounds.(I'm assuming this is in per square inch...not sure) I've read somewhere that pit bulls are rated at 190, whereas rots and dobermans (next highest) are rated at 90. Not sure on these facts though.

I remember the wildlife vet saying that the wolf has so much more power than a pit bull or rot (which they later proved through bite strength tests). They made actual metal models of their head and jaw (with teeth), and gave each the appropriate jaw strength using a hydraulic system. They stuck a coconut in the jaw to resemble bone. They both broke through the coconut in one bite with ease, but the wolf model made a bigger impact than the cougar. They also weigh up to 150 pounds so force and momentum would play a role. The thing is wolves are carnivores. They survive by killing and feeding on animals that are sometimes bigger than they are. But they work as a pack. They also have bigger canines than pit bulls. So one bite to the neck would puncture deeper than a pit bull's would, meaning better chances of reaching the spinal cord.

Well anyways, after gathering all the facts of both animals. (their bite strength, jaw size, body size, fighting style, etc.) They made a little computer animated model of what would happen if both met. The cougar killed the wolf with one bite to the neck after a little struggle and using its paws to pounce on the wolf. The cougar has longer canines than the wolf, that's why they mostly only need one bite to kill their prey.

So I would say that a pit bull would have no chance against a wolf.

 

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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Neal, sorry you were homeless for three months, but couldn't you have found a dumpster to crawl in instead of polluting a national park with your presence?  While we're bragging about where we all have lived, I spent a year living in Kyrgyzstan (get a map, it's not on your Greenpeace distro list) building an american military base.  In this country they have wolves, lots of them.  They use Caucasian Ovcharkas, (that's a dog) and a few other breeds to protect their flocks/herds and they do KILL wolves all the time.  They've been doing this for centuries there.  And that is in a wild setting, not a Pit.  I've seen dead wolves with Ovcharkas standing over them.  Very rarely is the dog the one who dies, and when that happens it is because the odds are not equal (whole pack versus only 1 or 2 guard dogs).  Additionally,  dog fighting is not only legal but part of the culture there.  They match all different dogs there, and, without question, the Pit Bull is the King of fighting dogs.  Even in Central Asia, where the Pit Bulls are not the best quality, and they are pitted against some breeds that weight nearly 100 pounds more, the Pit wins more often than not.  I personally watched 20 matches.  You can love your wolf all you want, when it comes to fighting they have NO chance.  The Kyrghyz folks won't even fight the wolves they have because they just plain lose all the time.  It is not sporting to them.  You're right, the wolf wouldn't know how to act in a Pit, the fight wouldn't be fair.  But, wolves get killed rather easily by Ovcharkas who are defending livestock, and Ovcharkas lose in fights with Pits.  You do the math.  Just because it's wild doesn't mean it can fight.  It means it can hunt and kill in order to survive, but it doesn't make it's living killing other wolves; if it did then we could talk.  Pits are built to fight, and that's it.  Take any fastlane, catchweight (55-62 lb) APBT and put it in there with the biggest Alpha Male wild, moose killing wolf you can find, I don't care how many legs he has, and the fight would not last 10 minutes.  The wolf, even outdoors and not in a Pit, would actually quit (if he wasn't dead yet) and try to get away well before 10 minutes, he would "cur", so to speak.  A wolf could never deal with a Pits strength, speed, or tolerance to pain.  I'm sure you've never seen a real Pit in action, just download a video from the internet, since that's where you get all your "personal" information anyway.  And read the history about this breed before you judge, not just the newspaper clippings that have some Pit killing another kid or poodle.  You nature-lovers don't know anything about dogs, even wild ones.  I mean this is nothing new, man has been breeding/creating livestock guard dogs to protect their animals from wolves for hundreds of years.  There are at least 10 different dog breeds that can kill a wolf.  Try to think about this logically, if wolves were such great fighters, we'd be using them as fighting dogs instead of creating a breed that can do it better than all the others.  You can hate these dogs all you want, I think it is stupid/dangerous to have them as Pets, irresponsible people are ruining the breed, but they are what they are: the finest fighting canine in the world, they will never quit, and, if conditioned properly, they will never stop.  If you ever get the chance to actually see a working Pit (like a pig dog) on a hunt for hog or bear, you will finally understand what I'm talking about.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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Animal Planet models are disconnected from reality.  They have cheerleaders for each species.  This is bias not fact.

Three wolves would have their hands full with one cougar.  These animals rarely fight, as they understand there is no gain.

WHO said pit bull could kill the wolverine?

go to www.nrtonline.co.yu/zoopage/klas/images/103.jpg

this beast called The Indian Devil for reasons

this image fails to show partly hidden claws, I saw other image straight on of claws VERY dangerous known to back off wolves, cougars and black bear

 

Answer by disgusted
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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do you really think that ANYONE is buying this "BLACKFOOT INDIAN" charade?  get a life.

 

Answer by Fred
Submitted on 4/13/2004
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Interesting topic.

Anybody know where I can get some footage of actual pit bull fights.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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I live in Idaho North.  Maybe you never hear of our tribe.  We never hear of you either, and we missed out on nothing.

Go to URL I left for Indian Devil.  maybe he come out of monitor and take chunk of your leg.

From "New Hunter's Encyclopedia" 1966, page 171

"The wolverine is one of the most dreaded animals in all North America.  He not only strikes terror into the hearts of all the smaller creatures but even the moose is afraid of him.  The bear and the mountain lion will give up a fresh kill to him, and even a pack of wolves have been known to give ground at his approach."

"He is a compact bundle of steel-hard muscle wrapped in fur.  Incredibly powerful for his size, he also possesses more cunning, more courage, more meanness, and more ferocity than any other animal in the wild.  He fears nothing and shows no hesitation in attacking any other animal if the occasion warrants a fight.  His teeth and long sharp claws are the instruments of his ABNORMAL STRENGTH.  It is always a fight to the death, either for himself or his adversary, and a wolverine seldom loses."

Disgusted has gone away, and is drifting out to sea............

 

Answer by Richard
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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The original topic was what animal bites harder, not what animal would win in a fight.  So i will say this.  The bite pressure of either animal has never been meassured with some kind of tool, but data collected from the skulls of the animals shows that the muscles witch are responsible for the power of the bite are nearly 3 times larger in a wolf than a pit bull.  i read up there that somebody said a wolf has no need for a strong bite, but actually it does.  you can't bring down a 1,700 pound moose with weak jaws.  i have seen a wolf on a mooses thigh being kicked around like a rag doll and it never let go.  and that was a 180 pound wolf at that.  and i have also read in this topic that "wolves hunt in packs and they never fight."  well yes they do hunt in packs but some wolves have been seen killing full grown moose by themselves, just like a pit bull would kill a bull.  and wolves fight each other all the time.  a wolf doesn't get to be alpha male by vote.  he has to fight every other male in his pack to get that spot and then he has to defend against outsiders and upstarts trying to take his spot.  also, either animal only needs as much jaw power as is needed to hold onto a large animal and not let go when being flung around.  at 65 pounds, a pit need less power that a 150-190 pound wolf.  i also read that somebody said "wolves get tired to easy"  nothing could be further from the truth.  the fact is that all canines have excellent endurance.  it has been documented that a wolf can run almost full speed for 12 miles or more.  almost all of their muscle mass is made of the deep red muscle made for power and endurance, as apposed to a cat witch is mostly the brighter pinkish fast twitch muscle that lets them sprint very fast but tire quickly.  i would also like to address the issue of "lock jaw"  a condition that pit bulls are known for.  there is NO SUCH THING as lock jaw.  it is true that a pit bull will not let go once it grabs something but that is due to it's  "game" or courage and tenacity, not any mechanism in the muscle or bone structure of the dog.  now i know most of you are just saying that i don't know what i am talking about and that i am a peta wolf lover, but i really do know and i am not a memeber of peta and i own a pit named cujo who i love like a son.  i know he has strong jaws, i left him alone in the back yard with my spare tire and an hour later it was shreded all over my yard.  but his head and jaws are less that half the size of an adult male wolfs head and jaws.  it is like comparing a jack russel terrier's jaws to a pit bulls, there is no comparison.  

now as far as what animal would win in a fight, you have to concider a few things, was the pit bull trained by humans to fight or was it just a family dog that got loose up in the minisota country side?  if the dog was bred for fighting then yes the animals would fight and the wolf would probably be suprised by the pits ferocity and just run away.  but if the wolf happened to be in a bad mood or very hungry and wanting to eat the pit bull, well i hate to say it but if a wolf can kill a mule deer by biting it once on the back of the neck and crushing it's spine, then it would have no trouble killing a pit.  no amount of "game" or resistance to pain will stop that.  if the pit was lucky enough to get a neck bite then it stands a good chance but the wolf would be ready for that kind of thing from fighting other wolves it's whole life.  i'dsay that between a wolf and a trained fighting pit, i give the odds to the wolf about 85%.  if the pit wasn't trained as a fighter, i would raise the wolfs chances to 95%.  and don't start with the "but you never seen this and you haven't seen that" because i have.  my neighbor bred and fought pits for 4 years before i finally turned him in for trying to steal my dog to fight.  i have seen hundreds of fights literally over the fence in my back yard.  and i have seen wolves in action too.  i regularly travel to minnisota to hunt with my grandfather and we have seen wolves fighting each other and hunting other animals.  and the wolf is just plain bigger and stronger and a better fighter.  and it's reflexes and speed in a battle is just as fast as a pit bull also.  wolves have been evolving over millions of years to be hunters of large game and fighters for position in packs.  pit bulls have been bred over a couple decades to kill bulls by clamping over the nose and suffocating it, not crushing it.  a wolf also has bite power to crush large bones in a few bites to get at bone marrow witch comes in handy during the winter when prey is less plentifull.

i am not a biologist by any means but i have been collecting information about animals my whole life from any source i can find and double checking those results to make sure there are no discrepincies in the information, so i really do know what i am talking about here.  you can go on and keep thinking a pit will win in a fight if you want, but just know that a wolf bites much harder, and that is a fact.

 

Answer by rell_baby
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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Some co-workers and I were discussing Wolves and hyenas and their bite pressure which brought me to this post.  I just so happened to come across a lot of info on bite pressure/force for Hyenas, wolves, pits and crocks.  Here is what I found...with links. (I found similar info on several sites, but I just picked a couple to post here.  I encourage doubters to research additional info themselves)

http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/faq.asp#14
Wolves - about 1500psi

http://www.edba.org.au/courier.html
Pits - about 2000 psi

Oh BTW, a Hyena puts out about twice the PSI as a pit and is the king of bite in the dog kingdom.  And to let you know that all this means squat, a rat has about a 7000 psi bite.  The debate is still open on weather a rat can defeat a wolf in a fight.

Rell

 

Answer by John
Submitted on 4/14/2004
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Rell, good info, good stats.  Except for one thing:  Hyena's are not in the Dog Family.  They are actually more closely related to cats than dogs.  Richard, you have never seen a game-bred Pit Bull fight.  If you did you would know that a wolf wouldn't stand chance against one.  

 

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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Richard your sayings on wolves have much reason to them.  I tend to think the pit bull is the best and strongest canine pound for pound except the grey timber wolf has too much size, also, the wolf is SMARTER creature, and have more wind power due to chasing ability for deer, caribou, moose.

A warning to wolf pack---when grizzly wake from winter sleep, he see wolves eating at kill, he decide to take over kill---bear is winner of argument almost always!  Even with 15 wolves who could kill him, but price they pay much too great.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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Actually, psi has little to do with the overall bite.  Strain gauges would be more accurate.  If you use the strain gauge, the wolf's bite is at least five times greater than the pit bull.  Discovery magazine said that the alligator has the most powerful bite.

There is also a very big misconception here.  Russian and Irish wolfhounds were bred to HELP CATCH wolves, not to defeat them in mutual combat.  The dogs would annoy and detract the wolf while the hunter shot the wolf.  I suspect that most of you don't hunt, or must be kids.  Do you seriously think that a single dog was used to hunt down and kill a wolf?  Most wolves travel in packs.    A hunting dog does not KILL the animal .... it simply distracts the animal.  This is how I kill bears.  Did you think the hunting dog killed the bear?

In Wisconsin, dogs used for hunting bear, coyotes, bobcat, and raccoons, are often the victim of wolves.  Pets are often the victims of wolves, and this includes all types of dogs.

For you arm chair types, there's some issues that every hunter must address.  If you are looking for bear sign at a bait, you must make sure to also look for wolf tracks. You've got to know your own dog's tracks, so that you can distinguish it from any wolf tracks. They are similar, did you know? Sometimes a specific bait site is receiving sign.  It must be discontinued until the wolves have left Wolves will and do kill guarding dogs, farmyard dogs and hunting dogs.  Wolves often kill guarding dogs in wolf states, such as Wisconsin.  Every farmer knows this.  There are warnings for farmers and other people possessing dogs of all kinds: it seems that wolves kill dogs because they view them as predators, competing with them for food.  

Ever heard of depredation?  The state pays people when the wolves kill their animals.  In WI, it was about $158,000.00  

As for people traveling abroad and seeing "wolves fighting dogs" ..... this is bull.  Gamblers fight the animals mostly for profit.  There isn't too much profit in fighting a wolf and a dog.  They aren't evenly matched and the wolf easily wins.  It's like the old lion vs tiger myth ... they fought them in Roman times and the lion always won.  It wasn't much of a contest and people lost interest.  They also fought them in the US, but again...the novelty wore off quickly.  How many people would bet on a man fighting a lion with his bare hands?  




The pit bull is a tough dog.  However, it's also used because it's relatively cheap compared to some other breeds, and it's also smaller and less costly to feed.  If you have ever gone to a dog fight, the owners must always agree to the match before the fight.  

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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The sources that quote pit bulls with 2000 pound bites are not reliable sources.  Come on.  There are several correlations reflecting large bite force: an animal with a small mandibular inclination and gonial angle, and a large posterior face height in relation to the anterior face height. Bite force must be correlated to the number of occlusal contacts.  

Pit bulls lock on to each other's heads.  An alligator would easily crush their skulls.  These dogs will hang on, sometimes for 30 minutes or more.  If their bites were so forceful, their skulls would crack.  According to the discovery channel, dogs commonly have bite forces of about 175 pounds, and that's not even 1/20th that of an alligator.  The University of Florida has measured bite force from a grant by the National Geographic society.  The most "bite force" produced by a dog is about 200 pounds of CRUSH force.  THis is not enough to damage industrial boot toes and so on ....


 

Answer by kiyiyah
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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I found this site whilst looking for information on heart worm. I grew up with wolves and have a pack of 14 Grey Wolves on 300 acres of fenced land.

I have never seen, nor do I want to see a wolf fighting a pit bull. I find dog fighting as a "sport" extremely sick.

Wolves do fight other packs but rarely kill in the process as survival of the pack is more important. They will in some circumstances kill other wolves if survival of the pack is at stake.

They can and do crush big bones in a very short time, they do not just eat the flesh of an animal.

Putting a pit bull against a wolf would be rather pointless so why not just try your arm in a pit bulls mouth then the other in a wolves mouth, that way you will know from personal experience and no animal will be harmed!!!

The best source for wolf information is L David Mech, try a net search and ask him, he is probably the worlds foremost authority on wolves.

Personally I would rather live with wolves than pit bulls, but neither are aggressive unless taught to be by man. The wolf hunts for survival and a pit bull can be as good a pet as any other dog if not made aggressive by the owners!

I suggest you do some real unprejudiced research before making "positive" statements.

kiyiyah@telefonica.net

 

Answer by kowalski
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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New debate:

Does a turkey have a higher IQ than the average Pit Bull owner??

Does the average Pit Bull owner even have an IQ??

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/15/2004
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Actually, wolves "commonly" kill predators that they believe are in competition.  In WI alone, at least 40 or 50 dogs are proven to be killed by wolves.

You don't have to fight them to know which one would win.  In wolf states, there aren't any wolves being killed by dogs ... wolves commonly kill the dogs, however!

Wolves are too dangerous for pets.  If you have taken genetics, you learn that a wild animal eats when it's hungry.  They will even eat their own when they are injured.

Animal trainers train wild animals from birth.  The wild animal thinks that the trainer is the alpha male and so he doesn't eat him.  However, if you show any weakness whatsoever, the animal attacks.

Coy Horn learned this first hand.  The tiger for some reason realized Horn was not so strong.  The tiger tested Horn's strength.  Horn's response was a punch with the microphone to the nose.  This is what all the trainers do when they are in trouble.  At that point, the tiger realized horn was not so strong.


Then, Horn became very terrified and realized he was about to be killed.  He then did the worst thing he could do.  He tripped and fell.  Sick animals or old animals do this.  The tiger went for the death bite and wrapped its teeth around Horn's neck, one set of fangs puncturing the neck and severing the vertebral artery.  Medical experts said that Horn would immediately pass out and so … he didn’t say anything at that point, including “don’t hurt the tiger.”  That was a lie by Zigfreid.

They should have shot the tiger, but they didn’t.  At any rate, all wild animals are this way.  They might appear affectionate, but they are still wild.  Dogs have, through many centuries, had the wild gene bred out …. Except some dogs are still aggressive.  

The predator must kill and eat just about every day.  There’s no reason to get into a tough fight … so predators generally won’t fight an animal that can even inflict minor wounds.  This is why those stupid stories of wolverines standing up to bears have some significance to people.  The bear could easily kill the wolverine.  However, it’s just not worth it to fight with it and suffer even minor injuries.

Lions are a little different.  Sometimes the male will fight very hard … not to eat, but just to fight.  The pit bull is this way.  They use these animals because they have heart and keep fighting until the owners pull them off.  Dog fighting is still popular in some states, although it’s now illegal everywhere.  Most dog fights end when the animal is obviously in trouble.  The owners pry the two animals apart.  The pit bull can be in a death lock and still be wagging its tail and … smiling.  So, people think that they like to fight.

I hunt, but it’s because I am a nature lover.  The elk herd often gets so large that the elk starve to death.  The herd must be thinned out.  There must be a ten to one predator ratio.  There are areas where the predator becomes too common or threatens people because they have lost their fear of people.  It’s important to kill them.  I also get my Christmas tree from the National Park.  The lazy “green people” that don’t know anything about nature often complain that we are killing trees; however, we track through deep snow and high altitudes…cold weather ….and other hardships to save trees.  The trees can grow so close together that entire hillsides die.  The rangers mark the trees that can be taken.  It’s the same with bear and lion and deer.    When the predator ratio is right, they don’t issue hunting permits.  I only do what the armchair people that say they love animals should be doing.

I have never lost a dog to a wolf, but I fell a few years ago and lost a very expensive dog to an alligator … the locator indicated that the animal was in the swamp, but it moved and so the dog must have been eaten.  I paid about $1200.00 for it as a pup, but it was worth twice that because it was trained.  I also lost one that next year to a bear.  If you use a hunting dog, you must run with the pack.  Unfortunately, a companion had a bad fall and I had to stop the bleeding.  The dog got too far ahead and by the time I had arrived, both dogs were dead.  You’ve got time to get there … you can even let them get ¾ of a mile ahead at times … but you can’t let them wait too long or they will eventually get nailed.  One was an African hunting dog or mix (they are illegal in many areas).  Unlike most predators, wild dogs will not eat prey they did not kill, no matter how fresh the carcass may be.  The African hunting dog will also not eat prey they did not kill.  They will find prey that other predators have killed and most predators return to their kills to eat.  It makes them easier to hunt.  African hunting dogs, at least in the wild state, do not return to a previous kill.  I don’t know why.  But it would make them hard to hunt.  You can’t trap them easily.   Although they hunt larger prey in a pack, and they can run at 48km/h for six or seven km.  This will run down any animal I have seen.  They pack in nature and run in packs of 20 or more … in the old days, sometimes, there were a few hundred of them.  They could kill anything with this number ….just about.

Also, dogs are not genetically competitive.  Neither are humans for that matter.  A lion can run about 36mph … if one can run this speed, just about all can run it.  Nature makes them almost equal in strength and speed.  It’s because of natural selection … humans have a great diversity because they don’t have to compete to live … some are fat and slow and ugly.  They live on, but if they were a lion, they would be dead.  Dogs also don’t have to compete to live.  There are all kinds and even fat greyhounds.  Many would not make it in the wild.  It’s silly to compare a domestic dog with a wild animal such as a wolf.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Indian
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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HOW COME Detroit has SO MANY pit bulls

seems like they want hyenas instead due to ANCESTRY

Pit Bull fellow with such ancestry boast to me about hyenas chase lions off.

Yes---9 to 1 and up.

Nature show feature film of lion called "he who greets with fire" killing hyena, breaking its back by clubbing it with its front legs.

Look at a stuffed cougar if chance takes place.  You will be amazed at thickness of its legs.  Same thing on shorter wolverine.  Creatures with strong legs dominate.

Such as, the pro boxer has reputation for toughness.  But, matched in anything goes against Olympic lifter, the non-fighter knocks hell and blazes out of MUCH WEAKER opponent.  Wrestler also kick boxer's rear end, due to greater strength.  Wolf have more size than pit dog, with such goes more strength.  Like my cousins work General Custer over.

 

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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what is going on here?  really!

could it be that we all have too much time on our hands?

what about this absurdity?  could a komodo dragon eat a pit bull and a wolf simultaneously?

no self-respecting native american would ever refer to himself as an "indian".  almost everyone understands that "indians" are from india. "me think old man drink too much firewater."  sounds like something out of an old roy rogers movie.  native americans today own and operate casinos and have degrees.  put that in your peacepipe and take a drag.

the poor chap who posed the original question concerning psi of bites has probably died of old age by now, but if he hasn't, he now at least knows that he asked the wrong question in the first place.

the next thing that we will probably see in this chatroom is some guy's receipt for baking cookies made out of wolf's tongue.

i think that it's time that we all take a good look at ourselves using this website as our mirror.  and this applies especially to me.  frankly dude, i'm embarrassed!

 

Answer by mromro
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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How stupid!
I think that you all should go out find a "Pit Bull" and a Wolf.  Stick your finger in the ass of each and wait.  You then come back and tell us from experience (true intelect) not just bull!!!

everyone know the american bulldog, the mastiff and bullmastiff have more power than both of these mutts!  Anyway, with any of them when they bite your ass you'll think that you have jumped into a bathtub with a hairdryer...

 

Answer by mromro
Submitted on 4/16/2004
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How stupid!
I think that you all should go out find a "Pit Bull" and a Wolf.  Stick your finger in the ass of each and wait.  You then come back and tell us from experience (true intelect) not just bull!!!

everyone know the american bulldog, the mastiff and bullmastiff have more power than both of these mutts!  Anyway, with any of them when they bite your ass you'll think that you have jumped into a bathtub with a hairdryer...

 

Answer by OKAY Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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skeptic you are out to split hairs

we all know Columbus was trying to get somewhere else, he got here instead

then we were plastered with word "Indians" and we know about India too

we are so tired of being called Indians that we gave up on making beliefs right

it's almost a case of, everyone is in the wrong, so everyone is in the right

skeptic, I suggest you should not believe anything, including your face in the mirror

you are offensive giving RACIAL STEREOTYPE about "firewater" and peacepipes; you know nothing as to my age, I am 36, hold degree from University of Montana.

whiskey was worked on Native Americans by you white settlers to ruin us, so you could kill all our fur animals, and grab our gold lands, and destroy the buffalo

 

Answer by skeptic
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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WHO SAID THAT I WAS WHITE?  you seem to be repeating everything that i said, and therefore lending credibility to it.
I WAS MOCKING YOUR STEREOTYPES!
everyone knows that the native americans got a terrible deal (and i say that native americans are still getting a terrible deal).
then you come along with your degree (congratulations, i admire that)and all of your old stereotypes, and i wonder why you are perpetuating the "indian thing". that's all that it was.  just BE who you are, bro.................proud.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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Come on!  This has nothing to do with the topic and for those that don't like the topic, find another forum!  You might be bored with your life and you keep telling everyone, but I don't have this problem, dude!

Dogs with longer legs have better visibility and have this advantage when hunting ... obviously, the longer legs are not an advantage in a fight necessarily, but aid the dog in finding prey for the hunter.

A Russian familiar with wolves once said, ""If dogs are attacking and tearing at you, fight against the dogs, but do not call a wolf for help. Because when the wolves come, they will destroy the dogs, but they will also tear you apart." Solzhenitsyn

In Alaska, there are so many wolves that they must hunt and kill them.  I have never hunted wolves, but I have known people that have hunted wolves in Alaska.

The problem today is that we have a very stupid press.  They will hear something or read something and they don't understand what it means.  A lion can kill an animal with a swipe of its paw.  When it chases prey, it will knock an animal the size of a horse down by swiping it with its paw.  Yet the press will report that pit bulls were used to fight lions and bears...as though it was a match.  It wasn't.  In fact, unless you cut tendons on the wild animal, the dog would be killed the first time the lion hit it with its paw.  Polar bears can kill 600 pound animals much tougher than a pit bull with a single swipe.

Even women have fought off pit bulls and killed them with a broom or by kicking them.  In the several hundred years of the Roman days when people were fed to lions, no man succeeded in killing a lion with his bare hands or even with a stick.  It's almost impossible even with a group.  That's why killing a lion is such a big deal.  

If you take comparative anatomy, you will find that a human can only be about 1/10th as strong as a gorilla of the same weight.  Most "fighting dogs" have some advantages ... the pit has loose skin so that they are harder to bite ... but not for a large animal.  They are strong and muscular and can pull weight, but of course their low stance is a disadvantage to pulling in snow.  They are unlike predators that kill for their living ... they will fight until they die, and few predators will do this.  To a predator, it's just a job.  They will only take "easy" prey and most animals are easy for a lion; however, a lion cannot kill a healthy elephant.

Pit bulls are domestic dogs.  They couldn't kill me, not even two of them.  I wouldn't want to fight two lions or even one ... and in Alaska, the only wolf reported killed by a dog was a very young pup.  

Pit bull owners are typically cowards and pansies.  They own the animal because they are weak.  They expect the animal to do their fighting and they exaggerate the animal's power.  The press is often stupid and interpret the world in strange ways .. they read about dogs hunting and think that the dog kills the hunter's prey.  My worst fear is that I won't be there in time to save the dog.  MOST hunters know to avoid hunting where they see wolf tracks because the wolf will go for the dog and kill it.  To bad the press doesn't understand this concept.

 

Answer by firedragons
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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Pit bulls are just exaggerations.  Has anyone ever read about a pit bull killing an adult male?  I don't think so.  They are always children or old women.  Recently, some pit bulls killed an old lady somewhere in Colorado.  Her son easily killed them and there were four of them.

Pit bulls have advantages in dog fights, but I am not really so sure they could win against a Mastiff or one of these breeds.  They don't eat as much as the bigger breeds and they show heart ... but aren't really a threat for most people even when they go crazy.  After all, they are only strong enough to kill women and children.  Wolves can easily kill a man.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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According to the Center for Disease Control:

"Statistics
Only about 12 people die each year in the U.S. from dog bites.  And making it even worse is the fact that 70% of the fatalities are youngsters (newborns to age 5).  But overall, 12 deaths a year is a reassuringly small number.  In fact, "fatal bites are just 0.00001% of all dog bites annually."
American pit bull terriers, American Staffordshire bull terriers, Rottweilers or any other breed of dog determined by the Department of Health to exhibit particularly powerful jaws, aggressiveness, and the ability to withstand infliction of pain to a degree that makes such breed particularly dangerous."
"In the US, from 1979 - 1988, 70% of dog bite deaths were to children < 10 years (Sacks et al, 1989) and, in 1995 – 1996, 80% were children. The highest rate in 1995 – 1996 was for infants < 3 months of age. Among the 11 Australian deaths reported between 1979 and 1996, 36% were children aged < 5 years, 36% were aged 70 years and over and the remaining cases were aged between 35 and 69 years. Newspaper reports suggest that a further 2 cases occurred in Australia in the 1986 to 1996 period, which were not recorded as dog bite in the official death figures (Milburn et al, 1997).

Anyway, the four pit bulls in Colorado seemed to run from yard to yard looking for victims to bite and they did bite others; however, they found an older woman to kill ... her son was an adult.  

I can't imagine them bringing a Moose down or even a large man with a stick.  They are just little dogs, after all, and they don't have claws or long teeth.  Their true strength is tenacity.  But they are just domestic dogs.  Get over this hero worship, dudes.




 

Answer by matt_p11
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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Some people seem to elevate Pit bulls to some type of mythical status.  Yes, they are tough dogs, but world beaters?

In a fight its tough to generalize though.  I have a 2 year old, 60lb female pit.

She is extremely strong for her size.  Her athleticism impresses me.  My 5ft fence does not keep her in my yard.  However, my 8yr old male German Shepard can still kick her butt any time he wants.  

I would say he is not an average though Shepherd though.  He has been in fights with several Rottweiler'slarger then he is and pinned them on the ground.  His conditioning and athleticism used to be incredible.  I've had him running for 6 hours while I was mountain biking.  He grew up with a Rottweiler(they brought down a deer together) so he was used to dealing with a strong bulky dog.  

In the end, he has decent gene's much more conditioning that the average pet that gets walked every day(though I think many dont get walked).  

He still thinks he is tough, though he has had his better days.  Hips are good, but shoulder isn't so good.  

Before people get bent out of shape, I am sure there are plenty of Pit Bulls that could have kicked his butt.  

I am sure there are Pit Bulls that have beaten wolves and lost to wolves.  

Also, not all wolves are equal. I believe many of these 3rd world wolf storys were using some thin, cage kept ~75lb variety.  In an open field I would give a large Gray Alpha male the benefit of doubt over a PitBull.  There are plenty of smaller wolf breeds around the world that would be easier for a PitBull.
http://www.stormpages.com/shadowwolf/species.html

In the end its pointless.  Modern dogs are probably much weaker that the Mastifs used in Gladiator times or times older.  In addition, the really big wolf species are no longer around either.  

Also ---->

re: Try to think about this logically, if >wolves were such great fighters, we'd be >using them as fighting dogs instead of >creating a breed that can do it better than >all the others.

Logic does not work.  
People fight chickens too!  Can a fighting chicken beat a wolf?.
PitBulls are very tough for their size, portable, cheap, capable of being handled by humans,  and most important....."Game".  

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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This is just silly.  Some of you guys are just blind.  

Also, some of those facts about pits and wolves having 2000 and 1500 psi jaw strength is not true.  Pit bulls do NOT have 2000 psi, nor 1500 psi, we dont even know what wolves are, but we know it is stronger and its estimated from the discovery channel episode that it is around 1900 psi.  

Wolves fight pretty often in the wild, and many wolves are killed by other packs.  

Do me a favor people, go to www.forwolves.org and go to ralphs page and look up instances of wolves killing other wolves.  or just ask ralph there, who has helped with the reintroduction to wolves into yellowstone.  send him an email and let him post it on his official website in which many books and articles refer to his website for info.  

Its just amazing to me that some of you think pit bulls are unbeatable.  its insane.  I have a book that i am looking at right now where a man who helped rid wolves back in 1920's said he would use at least 10 dogs to chase one wolf towards him where he would then club or shoot it.  He said he was always worried about if he was going to lose a dog.  he said in one chase, that one of his dogs started to nip at the running wolf and the wolf just reached around and bit it on its shoulder and ripped one of its ribs out, then had a tussle with another dog while being chased and literally crushed its skull, obviously killing the dog.  

Wolves are known to be some of the fiercest and most territorial animals.  

Go do some research on wolves, read books, ask wildlife or wolf biologists who work with these animals in the wild and they will just laugh at you.  its a stupid comparison.  As people who have guard dogs around their ranches to help protect from wolves, coyotes, and bears and ask if a pit bull, rott, mastiff could beat a single wolf.  They will tell you simply, the wolf will tear it too pieces.

In that same book, the book said that when hunters did chase a wolf with dogs, the only time the dogs killed a SINGLE wolf was there were at least around TEN large mastiff dogs..  now you will say i told you so, mastiff kind of dogs can kill a wolf, well they can if they are 10 of them.  

just go to forwolves.org and and ask the editor there.  and tell him to post it on his website.  

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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also, the thing about why are we not using wolves for dog fighting, well its a oxymoron in a way, a wolf is not a dog.  wolves in most states are illegal if they are up to like 85 percent wolf.  wolves are also not very good captive animals, captive animals are very different than wild animals of the same species.  

legal matters are involved when you own a wolf or wolf/dog hybrid, its not the same when owning a pit bull, because its a PET!

 

Answer by general
Submitted on 4/17/2004
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dude we aint fukkin talkin about bears and lions u idiot we talking wolves..pitbull low to ground good balance and a powerhouse..wold strong yea but that pitbull is gonna get that throat and its all over...he aint5 even lettingo after the wolf dead.....dragon u talkk about ppl like u top of the line..u lame ass hell for 1 n u dunno wtf u talkin bout for 2 so just stop talkin!pitbull will and can kill a wolf point blank and if u dont think so just stfu..like it or not its thge truth

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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haha!  Listen, for the dudes that think a pit bull is the match for a wolf, I suggest you call the state police in WI or AK.  Wolves kill dogs regularly, there are no records of a dog killing a wolf.

Other fallacies that were mentioned here from people that use any trash site they find ... such as the one about the jaws being different from other dogs..

* "MYTH: The jaws of "Pit Bull" breeds are unique in that they can exert 2000 pounds P.S.I. when biting, and the jaws lock, creating a tendency to tear flesh, which results in grotesque injuries to human victims. All dog jaws work in the same manner.  There is nothing unique to the jaws of the "Pit Bull" breeds that cause them to lock.  Their jaws are large and powerful, as are the jaws of many other large breeds.  Likewise, all dog bites tear flesh in exactly the same manner regardless of the breed of the dog.  The extent of the injuries is based solely on the size and strength of the dog involved.  This particular "myth" originated in a Ripley's Believe It Or Not cartoon. There is no scientific evidence anywhere to back it up. "
Cindy Cooke, V.P, UKC

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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  Wolves kill dogs in every fight.  A dog has never been able to kill a wolf.  You can contact:

Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
West Central Region Headquarters - Eau Claire
PO Box 4001 Eau Claire, WI 54702-4001
Phone: (715) 839-3700 TDD: (715) 839-2786
Adrian Wydeven,
mammalian ecologist, WDNR, Park Falls. (715) 762-4684 ext 107
Todd Naas,
wildlife biologist, WDNR, Washburn. (715) 373-6056

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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Table A1.
Total Wolf Depredation on Pets and Livestock

Dogs killed 27 1* $41,000.00
Dogs Injured 9 1* $1,305.16

The pit bull is not really even competition for the wolf.

The pit bull was not the "toughest dog"  He was a downsized animal that was cheaper to feed.  He was chosen shortly after fighting was outlawed in England toward the end of the 19th century.  Butchers also wanted a dog that could do its work but not eat as much.  The pit bull was a good choice.

Shakespeare referred to Mastiffs as "the dogs of war," and Henry VIII is known to have given King Charles V of Spain several hundred Mastiffs to use as fighting dogs on the battlefield. Trained fighting mastiffs were also used by the ancient Celts, by Kubla Khan, and by Hannibal when he crossed the Alps. Even as recently as the two World Wars, Mastiffs were used to pull munitions carts on the fronts.

Pit bulls are not used as military dogs.  Rots or dobbermans have this chore.  Also, I can tell that no one here knows anything about real dog fighting.  The trait of the pit bull to "hang on" is no advantage at all.  In a fight, by both "English" and common "Cajun" rules, the bogs must be broken up if they "fang" or remain locked too long.  That's not fighting.

The dogs are first washed in the ring.  They are dried and wrapped in towels for a time.  A cat is often thrown to each of them to get them "ready" and the cat lasts about five seconds.  If the dogs become "fanged" they are separated with a "breaking stick"

If the dog turns away from the other dog, he is often scratched....he is placed on the other side of a line and when the ref says "let go" the dog must cross that line and make contact with the other dog.  If he doesn't ... he loses....or if he jumps out of the pit (it's about 12-14 feet across)..otherwise, the live dog is the winner.  If the dogs are latched for two minutes, they are separated, the handlers can pick them up "free of holds"  They must be "free of holds" before being picked up...if they are not "free of holds" when picked up, they must be placed upon the ground and separated.

They are easily handled by men...if the dog should bite one of the men in the ring (there are three of them), he is barred forever from fights and must be "culled."

In NYC last year, almost a thousand pit bulls were taken because they were used for fighting; however, many of these guys are drug dealers and not dog geniuses...so, these animals are often not bred properly and will attack people.  LA has the same problem.

In the old days, mastiffs were used to actually kill soldiers on horses and with swords.  I can't imagine a pit bull doing that.

Most dogs only fight briefly, a matter of seconds.  They quickly decide the prime male and stop fighting.  The pit bull keeps going.  Most matches don't end in death, contrary to popular opinion.  They also have lots of fights in WY and of course in Cajun country.  

The pit is a dog ... no more.  He would not stand a chance against a wolf.

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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think about what this guy just said, he is being smart about it, and the only record in books i have read of dogs killing a wolf was back in the 20's when they were killing wolves because they were thought of as vermin, and those were large mastiff dogs, and IT WAS NOT JUST ONE OF THEM.  THEY USUALLY HAD AROUND TEN OR MORE BECAUSE THE WOLVES WOULD HAVE KILLED THEM.  10 dogs versus one wolf is not really fair

 

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/18/2004
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skeptic---bug off I don't have any use for your approach

whites aren't bad simply for being white

if you want to get even for slavery, ask the black professor in Brooklyn who he thinks is guilty

to the subject here---pit owners overrate their animals and underrate wolves

you know your dogs, but you know not the wolf because you have spent no time near him

we also have smaller animal than wolverine can kill any of your dogs---porcupine

Animal Planet showed this morning film of porcupine harassed by lions but lions quit after too many stab wounds

keep pushing matters with your dogs maybe Great Spirit will turn wolf tail into wasp stinger and he murder your dogs more easily

that works for those who believe evolution fables

serious researchers can give closely matched bones to big wolf and to big pit bull to see which snaps bone first

our confidence is in the wolf since he's in the bone snapping business elk and moose thigh bones much stronger than human bones

and again the smaller wolverine snaps the bones faster than the wolf

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/19/2004
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Talking about a wolverine, have any of you seen "Brotherhood of the Wolf?"  It's a great movie, based very closely upon historical events.

Many believe the BEAST was a martin or some form such as a wolverine.  It looked like a wolf, sort of ... but had short legs and was long...as big as a cow, they said.

It would typically attack during the day and would crush the skulls of its victims, sometimes dropping from the trees.  It always ate the liver, for the most part ... and sometimes just drank the blood. In the movie the hero made a fake one for the king...this is because when they finally shot the animal, it was displayed in the Paris Museum of Natural History until the early 1900's and then destroyed ... the French said that all the hair had fallen out.  This surprised people because this monster was one of the most famous tales from France.  The rumor started that the stuffed animal had been faked.

It was also resistant to guns, but many believe that the animal moved so fast that hunters just missed it.  The Beast caused economic ruin because everyone was afraid to tend their animals or go into the field.  Thousands starved and it threatened the monarchy itself.  The king sent many men to kill the beast; however, I doubt if these guys knew Kung Fu and the movie had some cultural problems.

Anyway, the animal was about eight or ten feet long (body only) and had a tail that was about as long.  It was about 3 feet high.  It was described as having a long mouth with huge teeth.  It acted like a wolf ... it did not return to the kill and would not eat bait that was dead.  As a hunter, I know how much more difficult it is to trap this kind of game.  

At any rate, it was not a pit bull.  There are cave drawings of France once even having lions and other animals .... it's possible a nobleman brought back a mean animal with him from Africa too and let it loose on the people.  The movie had its own idea about how the beast evaded bullets.

 

Answer by me
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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firdragons- i used to live in neillsville wi.a guy i know with two pitbulls lived on granton rd. there was a known pack of 7 wolves in the area he lived.one day he came home to find one of his dogs head split and skin pulled of the skull from center, and his other dog was messed up too.after searching the area they found two dead wolves and one severely injured and killed later.i know for a FACT the police and D.N.R. were notified. both his dogs are both alive and well today.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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fallacy of neglected aspect---those wolves---were they starving already, at time of confrontation?

had they taken some buckshot first?

or hurt bad from kick by elk?

I can say for fact, I can beat any man in world armwrestling, and it is true.

But neglected aspect I not mention is---if strong man lets me wrap my hand around his little finger, I can beat anyone.

 

Answer by drutigerman
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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this is sad.. all the wanna be experts, here...  in a one on one fight, the pit would probably beat a wolf..in a kill to survive type of situation the wolf would fare much better than the pit..  i actually work with both pits and exotic animals.. have you ever seen a wolf fight? 2 wolves going at it? more biting and slashing instead of holding and shaking.. because most fights between wolves are more of a dominance show than anything.. then you have Territorial disputes which many times leads to the death of the trespassing wolf.. but the death is usually caused by several wolves if not the majority of the pack.. wolves are not very good one on one fighters.. sorry but it is true...

also many people on here are laughable, like the person claiming pits were not the fighting dog of choice until the 70's..  they said that before that dobermans were the dog of choice.. all i have to say is, you need to come back from fantasy land..read this carefully... DOBERMANS WERE NEVER A CHOICE FIGHTING DOG.. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PIT BULLS AND OTHER RELATED BREEDS..
geez...  also to the tosa fan out there..  have you ever been to japan?  my guess is no.. i say that because the majority of dog fighters in japan have switched to pit bull due to the fact that they were beating tosas in almost every match.. did you not hear about the $1,000,000 fight? about 10 years ago? tosa vs pit.. pit killed the tosa..  since then the shift has been towards pits... and to the american bulldog fan..  they have been tried to with some(but not much) success.. the pit usually wins against them to.. however many people have been crossing pits and american bull dogs, as well as recently trying out bandogges (bandogs) lately with a little success..it sounds like there are too many armchair experts and fish stories on here...i think dogfighting is a STUPID and childish sport.. but facts are facts. and there are very few facts on this board.. a few facts i have read here concern the the fact that there is no accurate way to test PSI on dog breeds, and the info about skull and muscle shape.. the rest was mostly bs...

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Haha! Dude, think about what you are saying?
You aparently haven't read ANYTHING on this page!  Don't learn much, do you?

" wolves are not very good one on one fighters.. sorry but it is true... "

The fact is that there have been no cases in the past year in which an encounter with a wolf by a dog resulted in the wolf being killed by the dog.  Oh, I forgot...you work with both animals, right?  Yea, yea.  A self admitted expert.

You can call the numbers in AK and WI.  They pay for the pets that are killed by wolves...typically, "wolfkill" with dogs is one on one.   They don't have to "pack" They only "pack" kill for large prey.  They don't need it for a dog.  MN has about 3,000 wolves and the state also has a problem with wolves killing dogs. MN has 350 packs, but there are many "lone" wolves that are looking for a mate or just "lone."  Most of the man killers were "lone" wolves, although wolves rarely attack men.  Many wolves also travel in pairs (mates).

You know very little about dog fighting.  The pit bull was a "come lately dog" and was bred to be smaller than the fighters. There is NO DOUBT about this.  Not many people fight dogs, compared to say ... playing football.  So, the ones that talk about it don't know anything about fighting.  If they did, they would draw attention to themselves and get arrested.  So, you have pit bull owners on the Internet telling everyone that pit bulls are tough.  Haha!  Yea, tough against small dogs and also tough against infants and older women ... give me a break with the tough pit bull stuff.

Wolves typically eat about 20 deer a piece and only kill about every two to four days. Heard the expression, "Ravenous as a wolf?"

A wolf can go three weeks without eating anything and still be healthy.  The ones that come close to man and their dogs are almost always "lone" wolves.  They concern the population, because if they will kill a dog, they might also harm a human.  In this century, all wolves that have attacked humans and killed them were sick or very old.  I don't know of any healthy pit bulls that have been able to kill a healthy male adult, do you?  

MN doesn't seem to report the number of dogs killed, but there are about 150 animals a year owned by farmers that are killed.

There's a lot of talk about "fighting pit bulls" but generally, their fights don't result in death. The number one cause of wolf mortality is fighting other wolves in the pack.  The second cause is fighting wolves in other packs.  They fight and fight to the death in many cases .....

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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i am the guy who said the thing about the Doberman, and you wanna know where i received that so called 'fantasy information', it came from a  book about pit bulls and how there are trained, myths about pit bulls, etc. and was a very large and in depth book about pit bulls on sale at Barnes and Noble.  so it seems like one of us brought the facts my friend, you are giving opinion just like everyone else.  

you are right about one thing man, a lot of wolf fights are just shows of dominance and involve biting and slashing, but not nearly all of them.  I have on video from Bob Landis who is a cinematogropher(spelling) in Yellowstone that has footage of wolves fighing where your so called shaking and holding.  you can also read up on how people have seen wolves fighting and how they go about.  like i have said, go to some websites such as www.forwolves.org, send the guy there a email and ask him the question about this, and he will answer it to the best of his knowledge.  also you can read up on wolves there, and look at past instances of wolves killing each other and fighting involved

As for the guy about in Wisconsin where the two pit bulls and wolves had a fight, i dont believe it.  for one thing,, one pit bull cant beat one wolf, and definetely two pit bulls can beat up 7 wolves, they cant even beat up 7 german shepards for that matter.  also, if the police and DNA took a record of it, you could find it and read up on it.  we cant seem to do that.  

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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haha, byme says "searching the area they found two dead wolves and one severely injured and killed later.i know for a FACT the police and D.N.R. were notified. both his dogs are both alive and well today."

That's NOT a fact.  Dude, they publish the stats on wolf deaths.  You are simply lying, "by me"  Give me the number to the agency that reimburses people when wolves kill their animals in that state.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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haha, byme says "searching the area they found two dead wolves and one severely injured and killed later.i know for a FACT the police and D.N.R. were notified. both his dogs are both alive and well today."

That's NOT a fact.  Dude, they publish the stats on wolf deaths.  You are simply lying, "by me"  Give me the number to the agency that reimburses people when wolves kill their animals in that state.

As for the pit bull dominating fighting in Japan, that's also a lie.  The pit bull loses nine of ten matches and generally, the owner of a pit bull would not even fight his dog against a Tosa, except for "audience"  Only a moron would vote for the smaller pit bull.  Here's an article from a magazine that is not trying to sell pit bulls:

FIGHTING DOGS AND THE WORLD'S TOUGHEST BREED OF DOG

MIXED MATCHED DOG FIGHTS. WHICH IS THE TOUGHEST BREED?

by Mr. Jan Libourel, Editor of HANDGUNS MAGAZINE and Editor of TOSA Newsletter

In issue #17 of FILATALK MAGAZINE, the claim appeared that the most deadly fighting dog in the world was a 30 pound Pit Bull Terrier.   It was also stated that smaller Pit Bull dogs can get underneath a larger opponent and rip out its throat in short order. The claim was made that such a dog could kill "even the most powerful Fila".  

Right: Gabriel, a Fila Brasileiro at 215 lbs owned by Shoo-its Mountain Filas

This seems most improbable. …….. Moreover, the smaller Pits Bull are usually the gamest and the most talented. Thus, one of these little dogs can often defeat a substantially larger dog, especially if the other dog is not a Pit Bull. However, it should be noted that serious dog fighters are very careful to closely match weights in the most intensely contested matches. A difference of only a few pounds can count a lot in a dog fight.

Moreover, the claim that a smaller dog has a great advantage by being able to get to the throat more readily becomes very silly on close examination. (Editors Tosa on right) By that logic, a Jack Russell Terrier should be able to defeat the small Pit Bull, and a Chihuahua should be able to kill the Jack Russell, thus establishing the Chihuahua as the most formidable dog of all!

In point of fact, if a 30 pound Pit Bull went against a huge Fila like Gabriel, Jetson, Chaka, or Reno, the larger dog would crush the life out of the smaller dog long before the superior gameness or athletic ability of the Pit Bull came into play. Assuming the small Pit Bull did get a throat hold, it would most likely get nothing more than a mouthful of dewlap.

Mixed matches between Pit Bulls and Tosas have produced …… In Japan,  the Tosas defeat the Pit Bulls about 90 percent of the time…….

Most Tosa breeders will have a story about how a dog from their bloodlines has killed or maimed a Pit Bull. It should be pointed out that there is a good deal of variation in the size and quality among both Tosas and Pit Bulls, the latter breed having suffered from the scourge of puppy mill breeding. In the case of a 140 pound Tosa of the finest East Japan fighting bloodlines against a 40 pound Pit Bull of indifferent breeding, I would have little doubt about the outcome.

…….. As a matter of interest, several years ago a correspondent to the old Bulldog Review Magazine . ……. One prominent Tosa breeder reported seeing four mixed matches in Hungary.   In the second bout, a smallish, young female Tosa fought to a draw with a male Pit Bull that was nearly as large as herself. In the other two bouts, the Tosas decisively defeated the Pit Bulls. In one of these contests, the Pit Bull was seriously mangled, loosing an eye in the fight. In both fights, the Tosas became more dominant as the fight progressed. Evidently, the Pit Bulls had tired from wrestling with the larger dogs. The same breeder mentioned having seen two spontaneous, accidental fights between Tosa's and Fila's at American dog shows. In both cases the Tosas very much dominated the action while it lasted.  

Proceeding to some of the other mastiff type breeds, the American Bulldog varies considerably in size and temperament. They seem to be capable of fighting ferociously and capable for a short period of time and then losing interest quickly. My informant tells me of a mixed match which an American Bulldog punished an Argentine Dogo non stop for about 15 minutes and then quit when the Dogo finally fought back. I have also heard of a mixed match between a Tosa and an American Bulldog in which the Bulldog quickly jumped out of the ring to avoid further punishment. The Argentine Dogo was developed primarily as a hunting /pack dog. It does have some fighting breeds in its make up and can give a good account of itself in a scrap, but not on the same level as level as the "real fighting dogs".

The Presa Canario has its origins as a fighting dog. Today, it is largely a reconstructed breed, with heavy infusions of English Mastiff and American Staffordshire Terrier. As a fighter, it is reported to be similar to the American Bulldog - furiously aggressive for the first few minutes of the fight but lacking in gameness and staying power. The Dogue de Bordeaux has not been used as a fighting dog for about a century. In a mixed match with the Tosa witnessed by my principle informant, the two dogs collided in the middle of the ring and the Tosa knocked the Dogue de Bordeaux cold.

The Cane Corso looks like a fighting dog, but really isn’t. In functions, it is more akin to the Fila; being primarily an estate guardian and protector of livestock. Also like Fila, it is a good pack dog. One of the leading Cane breeders tells me that he has as many as seven male Canes playing together peaceably.

The Fila should not be considered a fighting dog. It was never bred for that purpose. It should be pointed out that the specialized fighting dogs are often of limited utility for much else. Many, if not most, Pit Bulls are too friendly to make effective property protectors, and many of them are stolen themselves.

A fair percentage of highly bred game Pit Bulls from the best fighting bloodlines are quite man-shy, and the same seems to be true with of Tosas, quite frequently, Other Pit Bulls and Tosas are very "waggy" in fact, for people whose primary interest in a dog is personal protection, I usually recommend the Fila over the Tosa, even though I dearly love my Tosa and am very partial to the latter breed.

Sincerely Jan Liborel , Editor Handguns Magazine


 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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One aspect of some cultures that has always taken time to adjust ... is the lying and exaggerating.  For example ... most people haven't even been to a dog fight, and yet they will tell you how cruel the dog fight is...how the animals die and so on.  The fact is that the dogs RARELY did in the dog fight.  They generally aren't even severely injured, and this was true of the pit bull, an animal that became popular because of tenacity and being cheap to feed.

Someone also commented here that the Pit Bull had taken over fighting in Japan.  LIAR !!  You have only to go to the dog fighting homepage and you can see...ALL the dogs in the finals are Tosa!!!  They average about three times the weight of the pit.  All Yokuzuna are Tosa!!!

Typical Size Tosas for Traditional Fighting


These are photographs of the type of Tosa Inu that is used for fighting. You will notice that they have medium sized bones, they have different skin color and have varying head sizes. These photographs were taken at the best tournament en the city of Kochi, Japan on September 2003 by Mr. Perozo. There were over 500 matches in this tournament.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Tosa Fighting Dog Center in Katsurahama on Shikoku Island 600 miles SW of Tokyo is the only center that has legal dog fighting in Japan now.  The pit bull is not used to fight the Tosa … they get up to twice the weight of the pit bull. The exception is championship matches that must be earned by winning at Katsurhama.  Last year, there were NO pit bulls in the Master’s.

The match ends when the dog tries to flee.  Contrary to the people here that have no idea about dog fighting, the American match was over then too …. Whenever any dog tries to flee or even TURNS … they must “scratch.”  If they don’t scratch, the match is over.  Just like that.  The dogs sometimes have to be broken up, but they typically don’t use “
break sticks” and pencils…they use flames.

The Dog center cost more MILLIONS to build.  One dog house, built for the emperor’s dogs, cost more than a million dollars.  This is I contrast to the barns, backyards, and warehouses where American dogs are fought.  The top dog has the honor of “Yokozuna.”
The Tosa also cost about 70 dollars more a month to feed than the pit.

The Tosa is becoming rare in Japan because it’s so expensive to feed.  Many large breeds are that way….they begin to disappear because of the cost to feed them.  That’s mainly why many large breed disappear and that’s the reason for the down sized pit.  Presa Canary dogs were used to kill pit bulls when the pit bull population was a problem on an island…the Presa is not used in fighting because it’s to expensive to maintain

 

Answer by me
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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you can insult me and degrade my intelligence all you like, because the truth remains the same.

 

Answer by me
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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also, i never said they took on 7 wolves, only that there was a known pack of 7 wolves in that area. no one knows how many wolves there were at that moment when they fought but my guess is not all of them because they would of probably killed the dogs. wolf packs do separate by many miles at times, but you should aready know that you great and all knowing dog prophet.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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I don't have to be a profit to know that you are a liar.  Wolves are protected under federal law.  Whenever a wolf dies, it must be recorded, both the manner of death, location, and so on.  I know that no pit bull has killed a wolf.  Now, the only reason the dog deaths are recorded in regard to wolves is because there are depredation laws that require compensation and a record of this.

I am the one that should be angry.  I don't like people that lie in order to support their position.  Maybe you are used to lying to people that aren't familiar with hunting or federal laws protecting game.  It doesn't excuse lying.  That's the problem.  There are people out there that don't even own pit bulls and only know what they hear in the toilet .. that educate others about pit bulls.  It seems that many pit bull owners are low lifes with little education and many are poor.  They exaggerate about their dogs and people believe it.

I watched the discovery channel tonight. They said that the wolf had four times the bite of any dog.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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Drutigerman, more lies ... you can't tell such a big lie without people knowing you are a liar!!!
Drutigerman says, "have you ever been to japan?  my guess is no.. i say that because the majority of dog fighters in japan have switched to pit bull due to the fact that they were beating tosas in almost every match.. did you not hear about the $1,000,000 fight? about 10 years ago? tosa vs pit.. pit killed the tosa..  since then the shift has been towards pits... "

I don't know if you have been to Japan or not ... but I do know that either you are a complete liar or you have never seen a dog fight in Japan..which also makes you a liar.

ALL the champion dogs in Japan are Tosa.  In 500 matches, non of the victors were pit bull.  The dog fighting center of Japan has pictures of the top level champions ... they are all Tosa.

As for the "million dollar match"  ... come on dude.  Liar.  Never happened.  Why would someone pay a million dollars in a situation in which the favorite will win just about every time?  And in the upper levels, they Tosa wins EVERY time.  There are no pit bull champions.

They do fight pit bulls in Asia, but in poorer countries where they can't afford the extra 70 dollars a month to feed the larger dog.  They use the dogs for betting and they won't even fight a Tosa.

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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lol.. funny i have been working with both captive and wild wolves for over a decade, and you think you are going to give me behavior lessons based on a tape you saw or some book you read..LMAO.. i am not a wolf expert nor a self proclaimed expert, but i do know what i have seen with my own eyes, and the fact that almost everyone that works closely with wolves would tell you, which is they are not the best fighters...  true you hear about wolves killing family pets.. a golden ret. is not a good fighter either...  not much of a lesson there...  you people are too funny...  now to the pit/tosa discussion..  sorry but it is a fact, pits routinely beat tosas.. ever been to japan? i have, many times, i know many people there, they will tell you the same thing.. the only type of fighting that the tosa usually defeats the pit in is the old traditional raised florr fights.. where ANY vocalization causes a loss.. in the traditional style(cajun western etc) fights the pits wins the majority of the time.. the tosa usually give/break the fight.. see this is where i think you might be confused...  a traditional fight has time limits, judges,and many other factors like a true game dog that wont quit, if it is being overpowered at anytime, is considered the loser, even if it has more stamina and willingness to fight.. even if would outlast and actually beat the stronger dog is not taken into consideration.. stronger dog winds by default..most tosa are winded 10-15 min into the fight, that is why they even have rules concerning the most winded dog.. lol  yeah that would go over well in a cajun rules match...  i guess you forgot this huh...

in the western/cajun style fights the pits dominate the tosas... sorry but it is a fact of life.. btw i love the article what a bunch of BS.. lol presas were used to kill pits when the pit poulation was too large.. oh my god LMFAO if you buy that, i have some beachfront property in kansas for you...  btw the article was also edited....  and the guy about the dobermans.. LOL  you don't know much about dog fighting..  pits have pit mixes, staffy imports etc,, have always been the main breeds in dogfighting here in the U.S.  dobermans.. lol , your book is lying to you...  as for this quote,
"The pit bull was a "come lately dog" and was bred to be smaller than the fighters."

lol  the pit bull was not bred to be smaller than the fighters... it was bred to be smaller than the dogs that engaged in things like bull and bear baiting, because the larger dogs were not as quick and they became exhausted to quickly in dog on dog matches... the pit bull came from crosses of old style bulldogs brought to the U.S. and dogs like the english white terrier(which is extinct) and the staffordshire bull terrier and other like breeds... by the time the pit was developed, the main fighting dogs were already small...  so you point escapes me.. as i said before armchair experts

 

Answer by helloagain
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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i am not lieing,and i knew this person very well and have no reason to beleive he was lieing either. if by chance he was lieing, then i an wrong, anyways i didnt come here to argue, and i have to admit your more intelligent then most here and i agree with you on alot of points. heres the info i know to maybe help in search. it was around 1993 give or take a year. it happened in clark co. about 8 miles outside neillsville on granton rd. also, the address and phone numbers you gave for the d.n.r. is only a regional headqaurters, the main headqaurters is in madison. i dont have the info. and i really dont care to look it up, but you can if you want too. also im not sure but i think the state police wouldn't have anything to do with this, they are more into highway patrol.like i said i dont want to argue so this will be last post. good luck to ya.

 

Answer by me
Submitted on 4/20/2004
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just wanted to add that in wisconsin the real problem is wolves breeding with domesticated dogs,not fighting or killing them.we now have wolf hybred packs.

 

Answer by drutigerman
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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hey where did my last post go?  anyway you have just shown that you are clueless.. do you even know there are 2 types of dogfighting in japan? lol  i guess not..  the only one that uses the tosa the majority of the time, is the traditional japanese raised floor matches. do you know what they are?

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Haha tiger cat!  and your other alias!

Tigercat said, "ever been to japan? i have, many times, i know many people there, they will tell you the same thing.. the only type of fighting that the tosa usually defeats the pit in is the old traditional raised florr fights.. where ANY vocalization causes a loss.. "

Actually, I LIVED in Japan a large part of my life.  You have never been there or you didn't go anywhere.  You also don't know anything about dog fighting in the USA.  Dogs rarely die...and the pit never beats the Tosa .. oh, you said you knew a lot of people in Japan?  Haha!  Well, call the city number and ask them about legal fighting events .. there's ONE type of fighting in Japan! Tourist Information Center Tel: (0888) 82-7777

Everyone call so that these liars can be seen for what they are ... probably kids.  They don't give us any information...just that they are experts and have a bunch of wolves and dogs.  They make mistakes when they lie about dogs killing wolves.  It doesn't happen.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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You don't pay attention to what you read or maybe you don't read it.

I said the Tosas are the only ones to reach the finals.  All the top rungs are held by Tosas.

The pit bulls don't make noise when they are fighting either.  If you knew about pit bulls, you would know this.  They even "bow" sometimes before attacking.  Most dogs do this to play.  They will wag their tails while in a death grip.   Hanging on and shaking is not fighting and it's broken up by the pit master.  

One characteristic of pit bulls that make them dangerous is their silent attack.  They might even wag their tails and attack without barking.  They are trained to do this because barking only "weakens" them and is used to "warn" others.  Most dog fighters in the US "burn their box" so that they can't make sounds that detract from betting and attract attention.
"Bill concerning pit bulls proposed"  
Columbus, OH. March 14– Pit bulls and other dogs that have bitten people .... are considered vicious ......trend has some state lawmakers even more concerned.  

"Today at the state house a bill that would outlaw the practice of de-barking vicious dogs was the focus of intense discussion.
De-barking is accomplished by destroying the vocal cords in these animals, either by severing them during a controlled surgery or in more crude backyard procedures that may include ramming a red hot steel rod down the dogs throat that sear the voice box and silence the dogs forever.

According to supporters of the bill, the procedure only succeeds in turning them into silent killers. The bills sponsor, Republican Bill Olman says dog fighting and the illegal drug trade is fueling the spread of these silenced and dangerous dogs.
The bill also has the support of the Ohio Veterinarian Medical Association. The support came after language was added that would limit liability to vets who silence dogs that are not considered vicious."

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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I suggest you call the number I gave.  They have ALL reported wolf deaths and have kept them for twenty years.  They know NOTHING of what you are talking about!!!  It was a complete lie, but now you are saying that someone just told you....your story has changed.

Most wolves die from being killed by other wolves.  They constantly test their status.  The average wolf lives only four years in the wild.  

In American dog fights, Cajun rules ...

At the fight, the rules are posted inside the entrance.  The heading says something such as, "The Gamer of Two Dogs, Ready and Willing"
Both owners mutually decide upon a referee.  You must have a corner man that basically washes the other owner's dog.  He also remains as an observer.  They use breaking sticks and pencils to separate the dogs in the US, just as they did in England and it's official rules...do you know how they separate them in Japan? Probably not.

As in Japan, any dog that jumps the pit loses without scratches being necessary.  The dog also does not have to scratch for a dead dog...the living dog is the winner.  

In the USA, the first dog to turn must scratch first.  To be a fair turn, the dog  turning must turn his head, shoulders and front feet away from the opponent and regardless of whether or not the dogs are otherwise touching.

If there is a turn, the owners must pick their dogs up "free of holds" .... if they are not free of holds, they must be placed back upon the ground and separated, then picked up again.  The referee then notifies the handlers which dog must scratch.

After about 25 seconds, the timer calls "Get ready"  The handlers stand with the dogs between their legs.  The handler's toe must be on the scratch line and after five more seconds, the timer yells, "Let Go."  The handler of the scratching dog must immediately release all contact with the animal. The scratching dog must then go immediately to the opponent.  He can crawl or drag himself .. he doesn't have to go straight, but he can't stop at all or he is out.  The other owner can let go his dog any time he wants, but usually he will hold him if the other dog is wounded and crawling.  There is no time limit, but if the scratched dog does not make contact, the other dog wins.  There's no reason to let him go at this point, especially since he might have won and releasing the unscratched dog will only provoke the fight.

This can be some of the worst moments ... I have never seen this, but I have heard that some very injured dogs will drag themselves across the canvas to the scratch line.  However, the handler would stop the fight.

Most dog fighters are not rich.  They fight for money and they make bets.   In Japan, the dogs often have billionaire owners from the Middle East or other areas of the world.  They have placement just as they do for Sumo, and there are different rungs for the dogs, with the Yokozuna being the top.  There were some pits a few years ago at the bottom rungs, but none made the finals.

In this case, the dogs are fought to fight.  In the USA, the dogs are only fought that are similar weight.  If you have a really big pit, you might not find a match.  also, they don't like to fight other mean breeds, especially if they are big dogs.

There's  a rule that the owners must agree upon before the match, and this is "time out"  If the dogs don't fight after 30 seconds, the dog loses. Otherwise, he has forever.

Also in the rules, because this happens...sometimes, the dogs just stop fighting.  Maybe they are tired or who knows?  At this point, the ref can call for scratch out to win and the time keeper notes the time and records the event.

The rules are posted because money is always bet .. and losers can become quit violent.  There are crowd control within the area that immediately goes for the owner that causes trouble or the gambler.  In poor areas of Asia, men with instruments similar to hammers will begin breaking bones of anyone that gets out of line. Sometimes, they must kill a dog too, but this is rare.  All rules say that nothing can be passed inside the pit to a handler ... the handler's dog automatically loses. The main fights occur when a handler steps across the scratch line before the dog. This results in a loss.  The handler cannot speak to the dog or kick the floor either.  If he does, the dog loses.  You can't touch the other dog or touch your dog unless the command to "handle" is given.

The dog doesn't bite people because it also disqualifies him.  Any real fighter that bites in the pit is "culled" because it causes loss.  In some parts of Asia, the dog is immediately "hammered."  In the USA, you must remove your dog forever.

At any rate, the rules of engagement are very similar in Japan and the USA.  It doesn't serve any purpose to fight to the death.  Long before the dog is dead, you know who will win and who will lose.  It's this stupid understanding that creates the false impression that all dog fights are brutal and bloody.  The owners are often this way.  Most of the dogs can't even bark.

Now, street fighting in LA or NY is different.  Often, the dogs have questionable parentage and they are poorly fed and trained.  The fights can be loud and often the loser is a real loser.  These dogs could not fight real fighters.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Hey Tigercat...you don't know the rules.  It's true that many matches don't have time limits (unless agreed upon as mentioned earlier) but once a dog turns the fight ends quickly.  He is totally at the mercy of the other dog.  You don't seem to have common sense here.  It's like in boxing ... the match is stopped immediately if the boxer doesn't respond or doesn't raise his hands to protect himself.  If the fight isn't stopped, the boxer will be dead before he hits the ground.
So, do you fight?  Do you think that a guy that turns his head and tries to get away has "game?"  He knows he's losing and if the other fighter punches him in the back of the head or hooks him to the side, the boxer not responding can die immediately.

It's not so much that you don't know what you are talking about ... you don't have common sense at all and you have no sense about fighting!!! The fight lasts when both dogs continue defending themselves and being the aggressor.  Even a girl knows this!!! What are you thinking?  So, the dog that turns .. has more game and if the fight goes on ... he will win?  Hahah!!!  You should be ashamed.  In Cajun rules, the dogs are separated and the turning dog must scratch.  If he doesn't the match is over.  That's no different than in Japan.

 

Answer by proposition
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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THIS WEBSITE DOES ACTUALLY PROVE ONE THING:
TALK IS CHEAP!

let's settle this; here's an idea for all to consider: the owner of a tosa (any owner)fights his dog against a wolf, owned by someone else, and then, at a later date, the winner of that match fights a pit bull owned by a third party.  the winner of each match wins $10,000 from the owner of the defeated animal. let's see if ANYONE is willing to back up all the empty talk with some cash.

cruel? perhaps, but not as cruel as listening to all of this endless CRAP!

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Haha!  The dog won't survive the wolf fight.  I would think nothing of fighting a pit bull .... I would not like fighting a wolf.

Animals are funny.  Sometimes, size means a lot.  I thought for most of my life that a tiger would kill a lion in a fight ... the tiger can be much bigger and the Siberian can be twice as big as an African lion.  However,  I read more about the Roman times and learned that they didn't even pit lions and tigers against each other because the lion always won ... that huge main protected him from harm and attack on the neck.

The pit bull's loose skin protects him some ... they will bite and puncture each other, but it's hard to grab something vital.  Pit bulls can't even get hold of a Tosa's vitals because the skin is so loose.  I can pull the skin on the back up at least a foot.  It's amazing.

Dog fighting was a way of life in some states, such as Louisiana.  Betting has always been the life stay and what dog fighting was about here in  the US.  It was different in Japan.  Here's an actual dog fight ... one of the most famous fights ever.  They were small dogs, small because it's cheap to raise them and their owners are poor.  Bets are made and the odds change as the dogs fight.  

"Cadillac Kennels"
"Classic Contests"

  April 28, 1968 - "Jack Smith" vs "Floyd Boudreaux" - Males 38lbs. Cajun Rules "Howard Teel" Referee and "Pete Sparks" Timekeeper

      Jack is using a red and white dog called "Bozo", said to have been bought by Sonny Sykes from Jerome Hernandez. Floyd is using a black which he calls "Eli".      
      Eli gets the first hold as Bozo gets skin hold in throat. Eli is getting into the throat of Bozo  as Bozo  works an ear trying for a shoulder, $50 dollars to $25 dollar bets being made. Bozo the favorite.
      Eli is showing good and working for Bozo's throat. $500 dollars to $250 dollars being offered. All the dog fighting in this previous match is being wraped up in 10 minutes of this fight. Eli gets in Bozo's throat at 14,then Bozo throws one leg over Eli's shoulder, gets a ear and throws Eli. Bozo gets a shoulder and shakes and Eli gets a mouth hold and gets him off.
      Eli up at 15, and into throat. Eli comes up and the bets shift to even more as both dogs working shoulders and front legs. Bozo gets a nose and shakes at 21. Changes to the hind legs, gets stifle and shakes. Bozo is working the front legs. Back to mouth fighting at the 25 minute mark. Bets getting hard to get at even money as first one then the other gets on top and gets nose and mouth.
      Eli acts as though he has  shot his wad. Bozo, has opened up Eli's front leg and Eli is weakening. The story is, that Eli has heart worms.  At the 38 minute mark, a pickup. Bozo to scratch. Made determined scratch, and gets a front leg, and Eli goes into Bozo's neck. At the 40 minute mark another a pickup is made, Eli scratches hard. Bozo gets nape of neck and Eli goes down.  At the 45 minute mark Kenneth Chandler says, if the little black dog don't win, his children will go hungry for a week.
      At the 54 minute mark, another pick up was made with Bozo to scratch, and he made a very determined scratch. At the 57 minute mark another pick up was made with Eli to scratch, he trotted over and took an ear hold and Bozo goes down. Bozo makes a good scratch at the one hour mark. One minute later, Eli makes a good scratch and Smith gives up the fight. Eli is the winner in one hour one minute.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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The Cadillac Kennels are located in Springfield IL and still sell the equipment used to fight dogs, including rule books and so on.  You can trace the evolution of dog fighting from the dog fight minutes ... for example, gambling was reduced "publically" in 1976 and so the gambling was less reported in the minutes, but was just as intense.  It was hidden.  MOST of the fight records are for Louisiana fights, many in Kenner (outside New Orleans).  The fine was about 150 dollars for fighting.

By the way, "stifle" is the knee of the dog.

At any rate, anyone that seriously believes that small 38 pound dogs are world beaters and can kill wolves is crazy....or maybe they just lack any common sense at all and they have no world experience!

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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umm you are laughable.. if you did actually live in japan, which it is obvious you didn't(or you did as a small child) you would know there are 2 i repeat 2 types of dog fighting in japan.. lol    you need to do some research before calling anyone a liar.. western style dog fighting as been going on in japan for around 40 years and has grown in popularity..  let me say it slow for you... traditional Japanese dogfighting is not done in a pit, it is done on a raised floor kind of like the octagon in UFC.. it has 3 judges, and time limits.. usually between 15 minutes and 30 minutes.. in Okinawa it is usually a bit longer 30-45 min..  there are rules against any sound(growling yelping whining etc) there are also rules concerning dogs being exhausted..  there are also rules concerning the domination of a fight.. as i mentioned before...  try and keep up...
in western style of cajun rules fighting there IS NO TIME LIMIT.. the dogs are washed by the other handlers/owner (if the owner is allowed in the ring, varies from country to country..)the dogs are turned and faced and let go..  they fight..  if it becomes a stale mate of if one dog is clearly dominating the other the dogs are separated(usually when free of holds, but they can be broken, then they are scratched.. with the loosing dog let go first to see if it will scratch or cross.. etc etc etc.. sorry this is the brief explanation..  most of the time there are no deaths in a fight.. unless you count the new wanna be dog fighters, that simply let dogs fight.. but we wont count them. and yes pits are normally silent when they fight(or they whine an excited type of whine)..

"So, the dog that turns .. has more game and if the fight goes on ... he will win?  Hahah!!!"

are you retarded.. i never said that.. try reading actual words.. i said that in traditional japanese fighting if a dog is being dominated, even if it is game and does NOT QUIT FIGHTING it is considered the looser... try and keep up.. in cajun rules the dog would be scratched.  you are proving how little you know everytime you post.. you obviously dont know anything about fighting in japan...
here is a quick lesson for you.

The traditional match: Held in a raised platform shaped as an Octagon. These usually have a time limit of 30 minutes but with some locations like Okinawa have longer time limits at 40 minutes. The time limit is in place so that they allow the number of dogs that are entered at a tournament to take place at a steady pace.

Additionally, only males are usually allowed to fight in the tournaments. In this type of match there are 3 judges that rule and sit on top of the ring, the owners are not allowed to be in the ring and must direct their dogs from the top of the ring and are not allowed to touch the dogs at any time.

Once the dogs are released and after the first min. or two, all growling or vocalization from the dogs must cease.The first dog that starts to whine, cry, growl, bark, etc..(Seri) is the loser. Also the dog that starts to turn away from it's opponent (3 steps to be exact) (Hashiri) is also the loser, jumping the ring or attempts to leave the fight is also the loser. Basically, the rules are set in place that a dog with questionable braveness has all the opportunity to leave the fight to determine the braver of the two.

A dog that does not show any signs of quitting could lose if he is simply overpowered and it becomes a one way fight. When the duration of the bout gets longer, and both opponents start to become winded, a winner can be determined by the dog that is in holds and the loser that is out of holds for a length of time. (Osaekomi) If both dogs are winded and out of holds, the dog that is standing at the 3 minute time limit will be the winner.If both dogs are still fighting and in holds at the 30 minute mark then it will be a tie. At the 30 minute mark, if one of the dogs is out of holds, or lying down and the other one is relentlessly attacking, then the one still fighting will be the winner.

but i'msure you already knew all of that right?  LOL..


 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Loser!  Again, I have posted the number in Japan. What you are saying is a total lie.  NO PIT BULLS reach the finals.  It has NOTHING to do with make noise, idiot.  The owners silence them surgically.  

You really think that someone would fight dogs and allow the dog to lose because he barked?  Hahah!  No, the owner would eliminate this possibility.

The fight is not stopped unless one of the dogs turn.  They don't stop it because he is losing.  Common sense would tell you this. There's still a lot of blood on the canvas. You can talk all you want and tell us what an expert you are, but you have nothing to support what you say.  There is only one type of fighting in Japan.  It is different from the US, mainly in that they sometimes fight dogs that are unmatched in size.  You will find American dog matches always pit the dog to the pound.  The records indicate this.
Many that fight in the US are low lifes that are impoverished.  The use the bull dog because it is small and cheap.  The money is from gambling.  Everyone in dog fighting knows this, and they are honest about it overseas.
You ignore reality, logic, common sense, and experience from people that are really familiar with what's going on. Too bad for you.
Your stuff about being a "one way fight" is a total lie.  In Japan, the dogs often become bloody and they don't stop the fight until one of the dogs has turned.  It's the same way in the US.  There are fights in Japan where the dog gives up quickly, but that happens in the US too. Sometimes, the dogs just don't fight at all.  I don't think you even know what "scratching" means!

You have nothing to support your contentions.  They are just ideas in your mind.

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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"The dog fighting center of Japan"

please tell me you are not talking about the Kochi dogfighting center in japan...

 

Answer by youdont know
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Obviously a wolfe has more psi in a bite than any type of domestic dog. And the people that think pits have "locking jaws" thats a myth. Theres nothing different about a pits jaw then say a scottish terrier.  People like to think Pits are this invincable dog, which is one of the reasons they have a bad reputation, which sucks; cause anyone who has a pitty knows that they are extremely loyal, and intelligent dogs. Variations in breed also ahve variations

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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Someone showed me the webpage where you got your information about dog fighting. This is older and things have changed there.  The article clearly mentions that the dog fighting is divided into weights...the smaller dog can fight larger dogs if they wish, but there's not much chance of them winning.
The smallest Tosa is bigger than the biggest pit.  However, when they do over lap, the Tosa almost always wins.
For the first rung, the dog has no weight limits ... a smaller pit does not stand a chance and so no pit bull makes it to the top rung.
All dog fighting in Japan falls under one authority and is closely monitored.  The "second" type of fighting is not really different and is under the same authority.  It's just designed for pit bulls because they can't compete in the other category.  It has nothing to do with barking because most of them can't bark (surgical reasons).

The problem in this country is that people often believe absurd stories about other countries and cultures.   They also tend to exaggerate .... and the pit bull is the biggest exaggeration.  It's just a small dog and it can beat other small dogs in some cases...but it certainly would not be pitted against a big dog.  If it did, it would standa chance.
The Tosa is so expensive to feed and maintain that there are few of them left in Japan.  They are too friendly to be guard dogs, but they can fight if they need to be and are protective of people...but not of property.
The pit bull is ... just as it seems.  It's a small dog that was bred to be inexpensive.  It's the poor man's fighting dog and nothing more.

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/21/2004
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LMAO the more you post the worse you make yourself sound..  sorry but that is the rules for traditional dogfighting in japan.. you obviously are clueless...  and as i asked before please tell me you are not talking about the kochi dogfighting center.. if so  lol...  you really need to get a grip on reality......

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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Pits deserve their bad reputation.  Before they were banned in so many cities, the pit bull was about 1 percent of the dog population and accounted for over half the deaths.  OVER HALF THE DEATHS.

They can blame it on the owner, but the fact remains that these dogs will kill children and the elderly.

There are many dog bites in the US every year, but the pit just keeps on when other dogs let up.

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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ok it is obvious now.... you have NO IDEA about dogs period... you don't have a clue about pit bulls, tosas, dogfighting in japan, or just about anything else..  your last two posts PROVE IT.. you are only making yourself look bad...  i have looked around these forums and there are VERY FEW people here that know anything about daogs, and you my friend are not one of them... you are really beginning to look like a wanna be... sorry, but it is true...  even your stats in your last post are wrong...  pit bulls do not even place in the top 5 concerning dog attacks in the U.S.  and you messed up the fatality rate.. pits and rotties make up roughly 54% of all fatalities in the country.. even at that fatalities make up less than one tenth of one percent of all attacks..

"They can blame it on the owner, but the fact remains that these dogs will kill children and the elderly."

ha ha ha...  wanna be... lol  you do know that pit bulls have one of the highest passing rates from the ACTTA right..  higher than labs, goldens etc..  lol i say again you are clueless.

 

Answer by bobbi
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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Also, whoever is talking about dog fighting should be put to sleep thereselves. that is just wrong. that is one of the reasons that pit bulls are banned in a lot of areas today. How would you like to be made to fight, maybe to your death, for other people enjoyment?

 

Answer by youverystupidpeople
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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Wow its a crazy in here, I wonder if you had a pit and great white shark fight, and the pit had flippers and the shark had legs that would make for a good match that all the Japanese and Americans would come from all over the world to see. Everybody is so one sided in here. You know what? that is what a seal is its a damn dog with flippers oh and sharks hunt seals ok game over. Man firedragon you seem to know what you are talking about and you along with Tigereye see to be regurgitating the same old crap. Could either of you post a web site (keep in mind the web site has to be legit) with information on these dog fights and all these matches, you know for us more ignorant people about dog fighting and all the tiny aspects that go into it. Cause both of you as well as anyone eles in here can talk your side until you are blue in the face and your fingers are blistered from typing so many damn posts, but stating your side is pointless unless you give us some easy access real information,cause most of the people in here are just not gonna call the wild life reserves, or talk to some dude in japan with bad English if any at all. The point i am getting at is lets make alot of believers out of you two and give us some real proof with pictures and websites supporting this sport.If not all of what you are saying could be just an elaborate lie.

 

Answer by pit bull owner
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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where's the blackfoot indian? i like the written in accent. "dog die from cougar slash" and whats with all the japanese crap.
i wont answer the question cuz i dont know but i wouldnt put my 60 lbs pit against a 180lbs wild wolf. its like mike tyson against oscar dela hoya...

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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"where's the blackfoot indian? i like the written in accent. "dog die from cougar slash"

ok, that was funny..

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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that was a funny comment about the pit bull having flippers and fighting a great white shark.  

also PITBULLOWNER, very few wolves ever get as big as 180, even though some have.  females average aroung 80-90 pounds, some smaller, some bigger, the biggest female wolf that was radio collared in yellowstone was 116 pounds.

Males usually range between 110 to 130 pounds.  The largest male in yellowstone that has been radio collared(which means some could be bigger or smaller) was 141 pounds.  This is from the book Yellowstone Wolves of the Wild.  try to find it, the author is James Halfpenny.  

i have read that little more than rarely you see wolves get up to 175 pounds in alaska and canada.   the largest wolf ever i believe was 207 or 220 something.  am not sure, but it was in the 200's.  


 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/22/2004
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first of all pits do not deserve there reputation like you say. they make up alot more than just 1% of dog population.i bet at least half the pits are not even registered because of laws. second, bite statistics lumps 7 breeds into the pitbull category. they consider the term "pitbull" to refer to any muscular broad jawed dog that slightly resembles the a.p.b.t. and out of those 7 breeds the factually apbt is last on the list for bites.out of the hundred and some breeds tested in temperament tests the pitbull ranks 4th highest for best temperament. you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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HEY!! Pit bull owner, go climb East face Monitor Peak in Colorado.  If you make it back, spout off more foolishness.

My hands are above average strength from roping up and down peaks.  I placed 4 pound kitten in tub to rid from fleas.  Domestic cats hate baths.  The little fellow was so powerful, it took ALL my strength in both hands to restrain him.

What amount of strength does a 180 lb cougar have?  Almost HUNDREDSx that little cat.  He can sustain 40 foot leap down from tree.  He can do 15 foot vertical leap from dead stop.  He can raise 350lb calf with only neck muscles.  You laugh when I say a pit bull must fear his slash.  God save your bully dog from great cougar.

Next go to Brazil and intro your poor dog to Jaguar, the cat who crushes skulls with one bite.  This cat can make deep punctures into BOWLING BALLS.

Now we wait to hear, pit bulls are training by taking swimming lessons in vats of MOLTEN STEEL!  GARBAGE from pit owners!!

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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Jaguars produce the strongest jaws of any of the large cats.  this doesnt mean it can kill a tiger or a lion, because it cant.  but still, that is pretty amazing.  

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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Haha!  Loser!  I didn't say anything about simple dog ATTACKS.  I have been attacked by many dogs and never hurt.  There are millions of attacks every year.  What concerns me are the DEATHS and SERIOUS injuries.  That's why they banned them.  MOST of their victims are children under the age of five ... yea, a tough dog.  70 percent are children.

Here is what tigercats said, "pit bulls do not even place in the top 5 concerning dog attacks in the U.S.  and you messed up the fatality rate.. pits and rotties make up roughly 54% of all fatalities in the country.. even at that fatalities make up less than one tenth of one percent of all attacks.. "

You have not cited any sources.  I have given numbers to check.  There is only ONE dog fighting center in Japan.  Anyone here can call that number to confirm it. As for the deaths, the year most cities began banning pit bulls, in 1988, pit bulls accounted for 62% of the deaths…..see below.  Pit bull fatal attacks upon humans dropped significantly after the bans … this is after the percentage had been climbing.  Over all, during the THREE decades or so, the dog probably averaged a fraction of a percentage of the total dogs and still averaged 1/3 of deaths.  The Rot passed the pit after the pit was banned.

You must be a kid and have no idea about any type of fighting. Even in the US, they don't it 30 pound dogs with 40 pound dogs.  I have the website where you COPIED most of your information.  It plainly says that Tosa are too big to fight pit bulls.   The fact is that a smaller dog can fight a larger dog in a challenge, but the larger dog cannot challenge the smaller dog.  The pit bull never makes the finals.  Only the largest pit bull wins against the smallest Tosa, and even then...only some of the time.

Pit bulls accounted for over half the deaths in many of the urban areas.....pit bulls do not make good watch dogs and are not powerful enough to kill most adults.  So, 70 percent of pit bulls fatally attacking humans involved children.

The bigger dogs are often involved in  security or maintaining property.  THE MAJORITY OF PIT BULLS ARE NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH TO KILL A HEALTHY ADULT HUMAN..So, the larger and more powerful breeds generally killed adults  I have already posted the percentage of children killed by pits.  The thing here is that it doesn't matter what the reason.  A very small part of the dog population is responsible for a huge percentage of the deaths.  Pits by the 1980 were banned by most cities and so Rots took over as being the number one killer.

HUMAN FATALITIES FROM PIT BULLS GREW TO 62% IN 1988.  At this time, many cities banned pit bulls, and the deaths from pit bulls dropped.

ABSTRACT

Dog bite-related fatalities from 1979 through 1988.
Sacks JJ, Sattin RW, Bonzo SE
JAMA 1989 Sep 15;262(11):1489-92 http://www.dogexpert.com/Literature/Sacks(2).html

By combining data from the National Center for Health Statistics and computerized searching of news stories, we identified 157 dog bite-related fatalities that occurred in the United States from 1979 through 1988. Of the 157 deaths, 70% occurred among children who were less than 10 years of age. The death rate for neonates was almost 370 times that of adults who were 30 to 49 years of age. Pit bull breeds were involved in 42 (41.6%) of 101 deaths where dog breed was reported, almost three times more than German shepherds, the next most commonly reported breed. The proportion of deaths attributable to pit bulls increased from 20% in 1979 and 1980 to 62% in 1987 and 1988.


 

Answer by Dennis Watson
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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Tigercat, as you can see, took his "knowledge" of the Tosa and dog fighting ... literally word from word ... from this website.  Except he lied and left out that only the smallest Tosa can fight the largest pits and the small Tosa wins .. not always, but remember ... a small Tosa dwarf generally has something wrong with it, as do all dogs that are abnormally small.  They are not as strong per pound and lack other characteristics.

The "two" type of fighting in Japan involve the inferior pit bull, a small but scrappy dog that cannot compete with the Tosa.  A smaller dog can challenge a larger dog, but rarely wins and in the case of the pit ... never wins against the larger Tosa.  Out of five hundred championship matches, none of the pits made the finals.  

In Japan, he's a scrappy little dog and very cheap to keep.  The larger Tosa is losing it's place because it is so expensive.

Most pit bull owners are as stupid as dirt.  They won't accept that pit bulls are dangerous around children...in Japan, they won't have even large dogs around children, no matter what their disposition.  Pit bulls have the potential to kill .. which the owners won't accept. Before they were banned, they accounted for 62 percent of the deaths.  There are few pit bulls in the US compared to other dogs.  Of course, there are people here that go by their own minds.  They are an example of being as stupid as dirt.  They can't suppport anything that they say.

No one in Japan seriously believes that a pit would stand a chance against any Tosa except the unhealthy runt of the litter. Pit bull owners feel inadequate or maybe isolated from society.  They often buy the dog because they know little of animals and think the pit bull can beat any animal, maybe even the lion.  You commonly see the page where they claim pit bulls were used in the past to kill bears and lions....the actuality is that they were not good hunting dogs and were killed quickly because they could not keep the animal at bay or avoid the claws ....Filas sell for about $3,000 to $4500 ... when trained.  They are used by the military to sniff snipers.

German pointing dogs are great too.  English setters are the most popular.  These are kick ass dogs that can keep their distance from dangerous animals and let you know they are there.  They give you time to get there too.  

Is anyone really afraid of the 38 pound pit?  The Tosa in unlimited class can weigh more than 200 pounds.  Male wolves weigh about 140 to 200, depending upon where you find them and their breed.  Oh, the Hunting Society is a great place to find out about hunting dogs.  You pit bull types can tell them why hunters should use pit bulls .. the hunter won't even have to use his rifle. The dog will kill the bear!  You can also call 450-347-8979 to find out about advantages of real dogs....for hunting.  Tell them "the dragon" sent you.  They will give you a discount!

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/23/2004
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whatever happened to John on this topic.  Did we prove you wrong buddy.  Also, John i have heard of Kyrgyzstan, and a couple of my friends in the Air Force( in which i am in as well) were deployed there a couple years back.  If you helped build a base there, then you must have a similar job as i have in the Air Force, in which i am assigned to a civil engineer squadron.  

so what are the sizes of those wolves out there, because many different species of wolves are all around the world, and some such as in the middle east only get up to 30 pounds at the most.  
  

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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Anyway, most of what you hear about dog fighting is the worst case.  Most of the dog owners did not want to lose their dogs and would only keep a dog in a fight if there was a chance of winning.

The Japanese used dogs that were so powerful, they were frightening, but these dogs are too expensive to maintain; and advantage is that they were so difficult to fatally injure that few died in fights.  It was not common in the US and was very uncommon in Japan.

The pit is a poor man's dog.  They are cheap, often free in litters.  They were banned in many cities, but people still got them to fight.  Death generally occurs when you have two dogs that are very mismatched ... in size or ability ... and the damage is done before the handlers can break them.  The rules in Japan and here are very similar, but the fight ends more easily here because the dog need simply turn.  In Japan, they have to step three steps and that's a lot.  Here the dog only need to turn his head and shoulders away.  He doesn't have to step anywhere.

Dogs are like humans.  Short, muscular or squat humans tire much more quickly than taller lean humans.  There are reasons for this, but I won't go into it.  The endurance of a Tosa is superior to that of a pit.  It's stronger, much stronger.  It has bigger teeth and ... the skin is so loose that the pit can't injure the dog.  It would be hard finding a Tosa small enough to fight a pit, but when you find such a dog, the Tosa does very well.
Most of the pit owners I have met are idiots.  They have unreal expectations of their dogs.  They don't buy them because they are friendly or lovable.  They buy them because they think they are deadly.  It's the dog of choice for people that hate society or have issues with others.  Sometimes, these owners feel isolated or alone and what something that will give them security.
So, the pit goes to these strange personalities.  In most urban areas, they are illegal and so it takes a strange personality...one willing to break the law ... to own one.  And, as the people that take drugs, they will never admit there are problems!

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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NICKNAME .... dude, think about what you are saying.  You must be the proud owner of a pit bull or a pit bull owner wanna bee !! Haha!  You contradict yourself.  First, you say that there are a lot more than 1% and then you say that they count every dog that even looks like a dog a pit bull!!! Haha!!  So, are they OVER represented or UNDER ??? you are just talking!!! Haha!  Just saying anything that comes into your head! And your source of information ... because you contradict the American Kennel Club, the CDC and other agencies ...haha!

As for temperment...what does that have to do with anything?  They were responsible for most of the deaths in the US from dog bites before they were banned!!!!  I don't know you, but you must be ... some kind of genius!!@  Yea, a real smart dude!! Haha!  So, a dog that is about 1% of the population accounts for the MAJORITY of deaths from bites before it was banned ... but you say it has a good temperment and won some kind of award!! Haha!  You sound like...OJ Simpson!  He won an award too!  But I wouldn't want to live next door to him and have my sister date him!!! Haha!

NICKNAME said, "first of all pits do not deserve there reputation like you say. they make up alot more than just 1% of dog population.i bet at least half the pits are not even registered because of laws. second, bite statistics lumps 7 breeds into the pitbull category. they consider the term "pitbull" to refer to any muscular broad jawed dog that slightly resembles the a.p.b.t. and out of those 7 breeds the factually apbt is last on the list for bites.out of the hundred and some breeds tested in temperament tests the pitbull ranks 4th highest for best temperament. you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know."

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/24/2004
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Haha!! NICKNAME SAID, "you better check your facts firedragon because not only do you make pits look bad, you make yourself look bad to those of us who know."

Hey, I don't want to discourage you, dude...but what do you know, exactly?  I am trying to figure this out!  Better check what facts?  I knew them.  I just put a few references up.  Now you know too. I know that in your mind, you know a lot...and you probably tell yourself this.  But, why don't you just try to find the facts and stop letting your emotions run your life?  

I know how bad you want to think that a pit bull can kill an elephant, but it can't.  Wishing you knew a lot doesn't mean you know...you've got to get experience and study some.

I might also add ... that I inherited the Fila from an uncle.  I can't afford a dog of more than about 1200 dollars .... or so I tell myself.  Tosas cost MANY thousands, they are more expensive than Filas....a fighting champ can be tens of thousands.  My African hunting dog was a gift a few years ago.  I think it's hard to beat the English Pointing dog because they know how to bay and they know how to stay away from claws and teeth.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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you dork do you think insults and HAHAs prove points? read what i wrote again,7 breeds are accounted for in pitbull stats.so your little death statistics needs to be broken up 7 times. GET IT? probably not your a nieve, close minded, dipsh!t anyways get a life!!! i got real problems with actaul meaning going on with my life then talking to someone who types alot and dont say sh1t. PUNK

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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LMAO...  you obviously are a wanna be..  by the way my ost that was coppied.. is on about 20 different sites.. lol  also you mention the dogfighting center in japan.. so i am guessing you mean the joke of japan the kochi dogfighting center... it is considered a joke by people like sudo san and his son.. you do know who they are right? probably not so go look it up and come back... check out the CDC, ACTTA for you statistics concerning bites.. you are the biggest wanna be i have ever seen... you obviously have NEVER been to japan, nor have a clue about it...  and you BS about pits is laughable at best... my guess is you have only seen a tosa and a fila in pictures....  or your daddy owns one and it is your pride talking, because it sure isn't your knowledge posting here...  you are a joke my friend.. that's about it... the more you talk the more it shows how LITTLE you know...  the kochi center is considered a tourist attraction by the majority of dogmen in japan... but you knew that too right? lol speaking of tosas do you know the people at stonewall kennels.. they are one of the most respected tosa kennels in the U.S. and the majority of japanese fighters respect their dogs too.. ALL of their line dogs come from the top kennels in japan.. so have you heard of them?  probably not, so look them up too... when you get done with your research come back then we will talk....

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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Haha!  Sounds like one loser using more than one name.  So, I have supported everything I have said.  What you say is not even supported by common sense.

Your knowledge comes from your head. You can deny the facts all you want ... but you are a liar.  The homepage you took the information about dog fighting in Japan said Pit Bulls are in the low weight classes and even the smallest of Tosas are too big to fight the big pit bulls. So, only the runts can fight them and the Tosas usually win!  Loser!

Haha!  You are not too knowledgeable and it's obvious from what you write.  Haha!  Stonewall kennels!!  Call the number I guess in Japan with the tourist bureau .. they haven't even heard of Stonewall Kennels!  There aren't ANY Tosa breeders in the US that are respected in Japan.  Stonewall is one of the hundreds of Kennels that raise pits ... haha! Idiot!
Their number is Stonewall Kennels: 413-527-8851 Give them a call bozoo!  Haha!  Loser~~!

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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I wonder if Stonewall Kennels is in trouble for something.  They are the only Stonewall Kennels in the US that were listed in my AKA book.  Do you have another phone number?
They sell German Shepherds and have stopped selling pits. They mostly board animals. In fact … it’s possible there might be some problems with abuse.  You can check it out here:
Robin Carlin, DVM: 413-268-8387
Stonewall Kennels: 413-527-8851
MSPCA: Sgt LeBlond 413-781-3231

Call Sgt LeBlond at this number ….or talk to anyone.  I think you are mentally insane.  There’s a difference between debate and lying to back up your weak argument.  Ever heard the expression, “Do you always have to be right?”  Most likely, you use this expression on others.  It’s actually for someone that is wrong and insists they are right, even when there is no evidence. They become so crazy, they start to lie …they believe absurd ideas and become sometimes even violent when they are confronted or challenged.

You didn’t even read the posts.  I posted the article from Journal of the American Medical Association .. this was cited in the CDC article and is the same information.  Except that the dates, over a twenty year period, don’t reflect what was happening.

You are a liar.  I suspect that you write under a couple names … there’s a difference from having bad information and lying…such as when someone says they have personal knowledge of something and it’s just a lie.  I read plenty of false information.  But when I hear the truth, I can accept it.  I can easily surrender ideas based upon false information.

You have presented no credible support.  You have lied and you even use .. Kennels that don’t even claim to have Tosas.  Liar!  Maybe you are that pit bull woman that was arrested there.  I don’t know.  At any rate, I think you are insane.  

 

Answer by Curs be Gone
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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At any given period, in any given year, there is always a catchweight pit usually in the 60-65lb range that is "open to the world" This dog represents the ultimate pinnacle of dog fighting capabilities.

That is to say, any one, with any dog, wild or domesticated of any breed, from any country in the world, of any size is welcome to bring between $50 to $100K.  Never has any other dog breed other than another Pit shown up.

End of Story.  Wolf/Tosa/Mastiff against such a Pit. Not a chance.
You don't think Billionaire Japs(Tosas) and Italians(Neo's), etc wouldn't for mere "bragging" bring such a dog if it existed.








 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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Haha!  Idiot.  This is a total lie!  In Japan, any breed can fight to the top rung, and no pit bull has ever been there. They could make a lot more than a million dollars.  Show this website or where you got this information!  Liar!

Dude liar said, "At any given period, in any given year, there is always a catchweight pit usually in the 60-65lb range that is "open to the world" This dog represents the ultimate pinnacle of dog fighting capabilities.

That is to say, any one, with any dog, wild or domesticated of any breed, from any country in the world, of any size is welcome to bring between $50 to $100K.  Never has any other dog breed other than another Pit shown up. "

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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"There is no specific breed of dog called a "pit bull". The term refers to a group of dogs developed a for competitive dog fighting. Fighting Mastiffs were described by Caesar after his invasion of Britain in 55 BC and various types were developed in ancient Rome, China and Japan. As long as humans have raised dogs, we have raised protection and fighting dogs. The breeds include bull dogs, terriers and mastiffs. Bull dogs were developed as "catch dogs", dogs used to hold animals for a hunter or butcher to prepare food. Terriers were developed to find and kill vermin and fur bearing animals for hunters and property owners. Mastiffs were developed to protect property and warn off poachers. Eventually, "catch dogs" were no longer useful and bull dogs were routinely crossed with terriers to develop a family pet that would also be agile and tough enough to be protective without being too large. "
http://www.pethelp.net/pits.html

In Japan, a smaller dog CAN CHALLENGE a larger dog, but the pit never wins.  No ever.  In 500 championship matches, none were pit bulls.  The pit bull was bred so that there would be a smaller dog, not tougher!  EVeryone knows this that is not a fool.

Japan's fearsome fighting Tosa losing out to chihuahuas, sausage dogs  
  Utusan Express, 5 Apr 2004  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  KOCHI (Japan) - The Tosa, Japan's fearsome fighting dog, is at risk of bowing out in its native land due to high maintenance costs of the carnivorous canine, declining interest in dogfights and a latter-day preference for cute miniature breeds like the chihuahua.

This southwestern coastal city has long been a mecca for dogfighting, and as such was the birthplace of the breed that bears its former name, Tosa, bred almost a century ago to be the ideal fighter.

The cross-bred creature is immensely powerful with a large head and muscular, broad-chested body. On average it weighs more than 80 kilogrammes (175 pounds) and measures 30 inches (75 centimetres) or more at the withers when fully grown.

Tosa dogs, which incorporate bloodlines of great danes, bulldogs, bull terriers and German pointers as well as mastiffs, are an aggressive species with vice-like jaws to clamp around their opponents quivering limbs.

Renowned for stamina and a commanding presence in the ring, the breed has become a synonymous with dogfights in Japan, but its future is now uncertain.

``I'm afraid Tosa dogs may die out in the near future,'' said Takashi Hirose, manager of Kochi's sole dogfighting exhibition centre, located in Katsura Beach, the city's most popular tourist site.

``In the current difficult economy, not so many people can afford to own Tosa dogs as it costs more than 100,000 yen ($945) a month simply to feed one, which also needs special care against skin disease,'' Hirose told AFP. "  http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Apr04%205d.htm


 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/25/2004
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just out of curiosity, are there other countrys other then japan where fighting is as organized? and if so, what breeds are used there?

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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oh yeah one more question, do they use the same pitbull bloodlines in japan as here?

 

Answer by firedragons
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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One thing that is hillarious (it always makes me laugh) is pit bull fan exaggeration.  For example, you have heard that pit bulls can pull more than any other dog!  Haha!  For a little dog, they are OK, but they could not compete with a big dog.
" Susitna, a Saint Bernard died many years ago but still lives on in the hearts and memories of dog weight pull enthusiasts. His pull of 5,220 pounds (see picture above left) at the 1976 World Championship Dog Weight Pull SM has not been challenged since and seems insurmountable to the many competitors who have since followed.
     Susitna's brother, Kashwitna (see picture above right), often went head to head with Susitna and on August 11, 1974, set a new world's record by pulling 6,000 pounds on wheels and won the title of World's Strongest Dog in the Guinness Book Of World Records."
http://alaskansaint.com/Susitna.htm

Pit bulls don't even win the "ultra light dog" division for 50 pounds. That's a little big for a pit.

" Frank, the nine time  World Champion in the Ultra-Lightweight Division passed away peacefully in his sleep in the early morning of June 14, 2000 at the age of 15  He was the son of a pregnant stray that was taken in by his lifelong caretaker and partner Kelley Griffin. Soon after he was born, he went to help work a trap line and haul freight to Kelley's remote homestead.
This award publicly recognized his accomplishments in the Ultra-Lightweight division including his 1995 record pull of 2,450 pounds and his first place finishes at the 1987, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997 and 1999 World Championship Dog Weight Pull SM."
http://alaskansaint.com/Frank.htm

In fact, large pit bulls can barely compete with the "ultra light" champions!!!  They also only pull the weight a couple inches ....in Alaska, they must pull it 100 feet!
1 Dusty/Pit Bull Chad Huyck 54 M 1210 26.80 120 1' 5"
2 Bella Jen Leville 56 F 1210 18.50 1420 7.5"
3 Duke/Sibe Rosalie Reyer 58 M 1000 32.57 1210 11"
4 Java/Pit Bull  Chad Huyck 24 F 600 8.86 800 7"
5  Sierra Debie Seder   F 0 DNQ 0 DNQ
6 Echo Debie Seder   F 0 DNQ 0 DNQ
http://www.amcw.org/pwwauk_results.htm

Under the same rules and conditions, the pit bull cannot pull nearly as much as many other breeds .. and they lose their strength quickly and can only pull these weights for inches.

To sound competitive, in the continental US, pit bulls pull (not a flat bottomed sled) a wagon on metal wheels connected to a rail, or hard tires.

"Rondout Valley Animals for Adoption (Accord, NY) Second Prize Winner - $5,000
"Lug Nuts" is an inner -city program created as a response to the increasing problems communities are encountering with the illegal and inhumane practice of dog fighting. Despite the success of spay/neuter in many parts of the nation, "muscle breed" dogs such as Pit Bulls and Rottweilers, are being bred in proliferation in urban areas and often used for dog fighting and sparring. Lug Nuts organizes and hosts informal weight-pulling contests; dogs are fitted with padded pulling harnesses and are hooked up to sleds loaded up with bags of dog food, which make great prizes afterwards. This program has made great strides in replacing dog fighting in urban communities with a positive, humane form of competition that strengthens the human-dog bond. More information about Lug Nuts can be found at www.suesternberg.com.

          



    


 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/26/2004
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I answered your questions at length, but for some reason they weren't posted.  Anyway, they use pit bulls in Japan that are better blood lines than here ... we are almost illiterate in the country … for example, take medications.  The manufacturer tells us to give lower dosages to children…that’s because we aren’t smart enough to go by weight.  In Japan, the medicine tells you dose/kg body weight.  Also, ever wonder why “Walk” is being replaced by the symbol of a pedestrian walking?  It’s because so many Americans can’t read.  People don’t really care so much about their dogs…there are those that do, but not pit bull owners.  Most pit bull owners in the US are low lifes.  The ones in Japan are often educated and good couples.  They look for good qualities.

Many countries have organized dog fighting in one way or the other.  You can find it in some of Asia and all over the Middle East.  Afghanistan, for example, had organized dog fighting.  The Taliban stopped it, but it’s started again.

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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again your BS is mounding up...  lol you don't even know about the people i mentioned.. lol   you are a joke, that runs about the internet trying to find things to back up your story, let's see, you have PROVEN your lack of knowledge on all of these subjects..
traditional vs western style fighting in japan..

traditional japanese dog fighting rules.

thinking kochi is actually a respected dogfighting center.

just about everything concerning pits.

different kennels

weight pulling rules

the list goes on and on.

my god you are a joke...

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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thank you for answering. sorry about my rude message, i was just mad because i take great pride in raising my dogs for family companionship. i once was one of those lowlifes you talk about, thats how i meet these wonderful animals. i have gotten away from my past, and now have a family and children of my own,my wife runs a daycare at home. this same breed of dog ive watched when i was younger be so aggressively in the hands of wrong people is the same breed i watched lick a kids face after the kid bashed her head with a rock. my dogs tolerate some pretty ruff playing by kids, and they love it. i know the pitbull isnt almighty but it demands respect for its ability to be a great dog in the right hands. i have seen both sides of this dog, and they do very well at whatever it is the owner wants from it(good or bad). now days, i want people to see my dogs for their loving clownish ways, and not for power or gameness, although i still respect them for what they were originally breed for.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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just for the record pitbulls hold every world record for weight-pulls between 45 and 80 pounds, and the reason they dont use sleds is because after a 1000 lbs. the sleds will "stick" to the snow, making them heavier then they should be. one thing i think is pretty cool about these events is when other breeds know they have lost they give up, when a pitbull knows its lost it tries harder despite any chance of success. you can defeat a pitbull, but not its will!

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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my numbers arent exact on the 45 to 80 lb. thing but they are pretty close. i have also heard of a pitbull from chaos kennels of Illinois (i think his name was killer bee, but not sure) who pulled 5000 lbs, but i cant verify that personally.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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I posted the "ultra light weight champion"  He was a dog that pulled a sled...the same sled that no pit bull of any weight has pulled more than a couple hundred pounds..that's why they use wheels. The dog pulled, 2,500 pounds and he was just 50 pounds.

As a substitute for fighting, pit bulls have started their own contests....but they can't compete with other dogs.

Anyone that would allow a pit bull around kids is a low life.  I am not sorry for that.  You are plenty stupid, dude.  Have you seen a wild animal playing .... and then when it's hungry, it eats.  Your stupidity risks children and you are unfit to be around children, LEGALLY in at least 23 states!

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Children often don't recognize dangers.  Adults must do this for them, but how about when adults are as stupid as dirt?

Horn raised his tiger from birth.  It was always gentle with him, always played with him...till the day it tried to kill him.  Just like that.

Animals, although fun to be around, bite.  They don't bite all the time, but they bite.  A young child should have a very small dog, one that can't do serious harm to him/her.  Large dogs can even trample and stomp.  Animals being playful can cause scars and serious injury.

The government advises that the child learn the threatening behavior factors of animals, plus:

Ask the children to act out these behaviors.

Stress these principles:
Animals, even friendly ones, can be unpredictable.
Stay away from animals, especially large ones.
Avoid animals with newborn or young.
Stay away from areas with male animals.
Stay calm, speak quietly and move slowly when around animals.

There are also distractions.  Children have been seriously injured by large dogs that have become distracted and didn't even know they had injured the child ... for example, when a cat goes by ....the dog might react and trample the child.  Children can be annoying and the dog might react to this as well.

With all the children maimed and injured yearly ... how can you be so stupid?

 

Answer by simon bar sinister
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Clearly what is called for here is to mate a wolf and a pit bull to create the scariest damn dog in the world!  I've read on the internet that pit bulls have a bite strength of 2000 psi and a wolf has 1500 psi.  (Actually I read that on this site, but that counts as a factual source right?)  

In any case, the bite strength of their fearsome progeny must be 3500 psi!!!  (It's all additive right?)  Furthermore, I also read on the internet that some pit bulls have flippers since they're breeding them to fight sharks.  Well, we should throw that into the mix as well!  

But most importantly what we should then do is breed these awesome swimming, biting pit-wolf-bull dogs so that we have a huge pack.  With these dogs we can then invade Japan and take over the Tosas for bombing us at Pearl Harbor.  I read on the internet that there's only one fighting center for these dastardly Tosa so if we can train our swimming, biting pit-wolf-bull dogs with the bite strength of 3500 psi we can obliterate the Tosa mothershihp with a single blow!

I also read on the internet that there are rules to fighting so we have to train them very carefully.  I saw first-hand a pack of 200 wolves attack and lose the match because they were disqualified for attacking a swiss st benard who was actually a conscientious objector non-combatant.  Actually it was my friend who saw it.  But it happened at Granton Rd!  


 

Answer by Mr Majik
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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Ok listen everyone...This is a very hard question to answer. I mean a wolf is a wild animal and a Pitt Bull is a domesticated dog. No one can really measure the PSI of any animal. Dobermans are aggressive as well, like one of the other people said that a Dobie used to be the toughest or most aggressive dog before the Pitt Bull. I can see why. Look at those animals, they are monsters! They are huge, strong, fast and smart. It is not the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size in the fight of the dog though. But anyway, Wolves are wild, untaimed and dangerous, When they are around other Wolves. if a Pitt Bull anda Wolf were to get into a fight, i believe that the Wolf would win, he doesnt know the meaning of stop and his instinct will say "This animal is food and i will be killed if i dont kill him." PSI of a wolf is said to be around 1500, and a pitt bull is 250, well that really doesnt make sense though, because, There is no way to prove what the PSI is, i dont care how dangerous or tough your Pitt is, the wolf will kill it and have plenty of energy to go on. Wolves are not Domesticated, once a dog is domesticated it becomes weaker because it relies on a human being to feed and shelter it. Where as a wolf does not. The Wolf Would Win.

 

Answer by sage
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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dear simon bar,

TERRIFIC!  THANK YOU!

 

Answer by sage reciprocates
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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what is the PSI of the bite of a wolf?

350
1000
1250
1500
2500
3000

answer:  all of the above

what is the PSI of the bite of a pit bull?

250
500
1200
3000

answer:  all of the above

NOW WHAT?

is the TOSA'S manure more valuable than that of the PIT BULL?

can a wolf pull a dog sled better than a dog?
ie., better than either the TOSA or the PIT BULL?

can a wolf pull a dog sled with its teeth better than a pit bull can in a harness?

nile croc vs. tosa

kamodo dragon vs. pit bull

rino vs. poodle

bush vs. kerry

ali  vs.  hulk

hillary vs. angie jole

KNOCK YOURSELVES OUT, DUDES

 

Answer by youstupidpeople
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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horay for the fearsome pitwolf shark dogs, the ultimate animal on the earth we should take these monsters and have them attack the ASS who asked this stupid question, which made me waste so much of my study time here at school reading all these stupid post. Who's in favor?

 

Answer by GOD
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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THIS IS GOD AND ALL OF YOU NEED TO BE SET STRAIGHT. THE WOLF IS THE ULTIMATE CANINE. MUCH LIKE I AM THE ULTIMATE. DOG WAS CREATED FROM ITS PREDECESSOR THE WOLF. THE PIT BULL IS INFERIOR NOW EVERYONE SHUT UP AND WORSHIP ME.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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ok  now i know you really are a dipsh!it firedragons!!! first you say wolves will beat a pit because wolves are wild and pits are domestacated and now you compare pits to wild tigers.whats your beef? are you really this stupid or just trying to start sh!t? lets take YOUR numbers for example, which are just as wrong as you.if pitbull represents 1% of the dogs as you say then there is at least 750,000 pits.why dont we have 750,000 dog attacks then?what about the 99.9% of pits that are good family dogs that you never hear of attacking.you obviously have NEVER been around these dogs.all you say is lies! do you know that pits are used for police k-9s,search and rescue, military, and therapy dogs. so now are you going to say the police,military, and nursing homes dont know what they are doing? because i will trust the police over some retards post on the internet.check it out if your so damned smart.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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between 1995 and 1996, around 42,000 people were murdered in the u.s. in those same years 3 people were killed by pitbulls. considering the u.s. population is around 300,000,000 people, you had a 1/15,000 chance of being murdered in those two years.in those same two years you had a 1/200,000,000 chance of being killed by a pitbull. that means you are 13,000 times more likely to be killed by a man then a pitbull. and you think pitbulls are a problem, WE as americans are the problem, we cant accept the fact we are barbarians,so we blame everything else, and what better victim then a dog whose breed is already discriminated against.dont believe me, look it up for yourself.                                                by the way in those same two years 220 people were killed by horses,now you can do the math on that one.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/27/2004
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LOSER!  You disgust me.  What if 99.99 percent of pit bulls are lovely...the ones that aren't kill children.  In Japan, they don't even let large animals that have never attacked people to be around children. It's like a horse.  Would you allow your child to be around a horse unattended?  Say, he's five or under.  If he is 12 or under and unattended, you can go to jail for child neglect.  Children are about responsibility.  My cousin was mauled by a large mix.  He should never have been left alone with the large dog.  My cousin's mom spent a few days in jail and there was a lot of embarassment ... plus court costs and so on. What a stupid woman.  She could have spent years in jail.  I think we are all pretty sick of people that have children and don't take responsibility.  Now, she most likely would have spent longer in prison.  My cousin has a large scar on the face and a rebuilt ear.

First of all, the PSI of the animals can easily be measured.  You must just make the measurements standard.  First of all, psi is misleading...the sharper the tooth, the more the psi, but if enough pressure were exerted with a sharp tooth, the tooth would break.  The PSI is simply pounds per square inch ...

Bite pressure measure the "clamp" of the jaw.  In other words, it's the amount of strain the jaw exerts.  This measurement is about 1/10 that of a PSI measurement. That's why you see the differences...a dog with a PSI of 2000 would only be about 140 pounds on a strain gauge; however, if you use similar techniques, the wolf bite is AT LEAST four times more powerful than ANY domestic dog, including the pit.

As for the rules of fighting and dogs, the Cajun and English rules will stop the fight before the Japanese rules.  I have cited this.  The losers that say the pits lose because they whine is not the reason.  Most of them have been "burned" and cannot bark or make sounds.  A small Tosa can generally beat the pit in the same weight and just about always does ... I have cited articles that compare them.  I have also cited reality.  I would not be afraid of any 40 pound pit.  I have also cited why pits were bred...for a small dog.

Anyone that knows anything about strength and fighting will know that weights make a big difference.  A lightweight might have superior skill in boxing, but a heavyweight will beat him everyday.  That's why there are weight classes.  Dog fighting in Japan has weight classes, mostly to protect the smaller dogs.  AS I have cited, the pit cannot win against the larger Tosa and they don't even challenge now.  A larger dog can kill the smaller pit so quicly that it isn't sport.

Small Tosas will fight pit bulls ... and they usually win even here.  The owners must decide.  Tosa are rare in the USA, but they aren't used in fighting because no one would bet.

Also, your stats are really poor.  There are less than a fourth of the number of dogs per person in the US.  Less than 1 percent are pits.  Why not let people have lions?  The number of bites does not matter ... the deaths do.  Spaniels bite more people that pits because they have larger numbers ... but they are a small dog and do not account for deaths.  I have been bitten by my uncle's Spaniel a few hundred times, most of which did not draw blood.  A also did not worry for my brother.

Anyway, for the losers out there ... the government disagrees with you.  Most people are fed up with dog owners that are not responsible and especially people that own dangerous dogs.

Governments of entire nations have banned the pit and they are banned in most large cities now.  They have debated this same issue and the facts prevail. You try to obscure the facts by your statements. The Spaniel cannot cause the injury.

Here is another fact about dogs.  The attack must generally be sustained or it won't result in death. Dogs teeth normally do not have penetration and they are typically not strong enough to break bones as is the wolf.

"Dog Bites

       Because dogs have strong jaws and relatively dull-edged teeth, they tend to inflict "crush-type" injuries that are not deeply penetrating. Dog bites can, however, cover large areas. They ordinarily will not injure deep structures like bones, joints, tendons, and nerves, although they will often damage skin and the underlying muscle."
http://www.drklein.net/bites.htm


 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Wolves can outfight, outbite...and outsmart dogs!!!

Wolf Pack Bites Back.(wolf/dog crossbreeds on rescue farms)(Brief Article)
Insight on the News, Feb 26, 2001, by Julia Duin
"Wolves are superintelligent," says general manager Barbara Berge, who joined forces with ranch founder Jacques Evans in 1992. "Their brain size is 30 percent larger than a dog's. They are very curious. If there is a squeak in the couch, they'll take it apart to find out why."

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1571/8_17/72274327/p1/article.jhtml?term=dog+bites

The Myth of the Wild Dog
There are many stories of wolves being just "wild dogs" that could be tamed. While wolves and dogs do share many biological traits, they are very different from each other. The dogs we have as pets have been bred to be gentle companion animals to humans. Wolves are still wild animals and should be treated as such. Sometimes wolves and dogs interbreed, and the pups are called wolf hybrids. However, these hybrids usually do not make good pets. There is another myth that some breeds of dog, like the husky, are part wolf. But huskies are just another breed of domestic dog, like a poodle or a golden retriever
A Carnivore Diet
Wolves eat meat almost exclusively. In the wild, some observers have seen them eat small birds or mice, but they prefer larger prey such as goats, sheep, or deer. Wolves work as a team to attack herds of these large animals. They often go after the old, young, or sick, since they are easier to kill. Many times it is feast or famine for wolves. When they find food, they eat as much as they can, because they may go for many days before eating again. Wolves can kill their prey effectively because they have incredibly strong jaws, which can bite through even the toughest of animal hides. They can even break hard bones in just a few bites. Wolves at the San Diego Zoo are fed a special ground meat for carnivores, as well as large bones to chew on.
http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-wolf.html

Verifying A Wolf Kill

How do you know a wolf killed an animal? You do not know - unless you find a wolf with a smoking gun bending over the corpse. So you have to build up evidence bit by bit and make a judgement. The more knowledge and experience you have, the more likely you may be right.

Examine The Surroundings:

Search the ground for paw marks and hairs. You can distinguish wolf prints from those of other predators but not from large dog prints. Examine hairs under a microscope for the species they belong to.

Distinguish Depredation From Scavenging:

Animals scavenged by wolves are already dead, having died from other causes, such as ill health, accident or other predators. So look for indications that a struggle took place: that the prey animal was grappled alive. Haemorrhages beneath the skin - on the neck, throat, back or hindquarters - indicate a struggle, because only live animals bleed when bitten.

Identify Signs Of Different Predators:
Distinguish depredation by wolves from other predators. The combination of certain wounds suggest a wolf:

Bites and large jagged wounds on flanks, hindquarters and upper shoulders of large livestock, like cattle and horses

Bites on head, neck, throat, back and hindquarters of small livestock, like sheep and calves

Size and spacing of puncture wounds on the carcass matching the diameter and spacing of wolf canines

Signs of feeding on viscera and hindquarters
Broken and chewed limb bones

Carcass almost totally consumed or torn apart and scatted by successive feedings

Large prey eaten on site and smaller ones dragged a short distance from the kill site.
http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/a-d4-depredation-verify.html

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Trained MD's CAN EASILY DETERMINE IF THE WOUNDS ARE FROM A DOG OR A WOLF.  A wolf bites crushes the bone and a bite on the arm generally results in a severed limb.  Dog's have dull, short teeth and they can't bite as hard ... so, their wounds are often multiple.

"Daniel had lacerations of the face, left thigh, left calf, and right thigh, and abrasions and bruises of the abdomen and chest. Mr. Mahlandt was permitted to state that Daniel had indicated that he had gone under the fence. Mr. Mahlandt and Mr. Poos, about a month after the incident, examined the fence to determine what caused Daniel's lacerations. Mr. Mahlandt felt that they did not look like animal bites. The parallel scars on Daniel's thigh appeared to match the configuration of the barbs or tines on the fence. The expert as to the behavior of wolves opined that the lacerations were not wolf bites or wounds caused by wolf claws. Wolves have powerful jaws and a wolf bite will result in massive crushing or severing of a limb. He stated that if Sophie had bitten Daniel there would have been clear apposition of teeth and massive crushing of Daniel's hands and arms which were not injured. Also, if Sophie had pulled Daniel under the fence, tooth marks on the foot or leg would have been present, although Sophie possessed enough strength to pull the boy under the fence."
Mahlandt v. Wild Canid Survival & Research Center, Inc. 588 F.2d 626 (8th Cir. 1979)

How strong are a gray wolves' jaws? (top)

The massive molars and powerful jaws of a wolf are used to crush the bones of its prey. The biting capacity of a wolf is 1,500 pounds of pressure per square inch. The strength of a wolf's jaws makes it possible to bite through a moose femur in six to eight bites.

People always think their pets are safe, but:
"dog dogs bites attacks 'U.S. Postal Service'
Woman tells mail carrier 'dog won't bite', pit bull mauls mail carrier CA The U.S. Postal Service wants to thank a man for "saving the life of a 50-year-old letter carrier who was bitten about the face, head and arms last Wednesday so severely she had to be hospitalized..." The carrier had just received assurances from a woman that her dog was not a biter...  

"She had blood all over her face. She started going into shock,' he said. As bystanders called 9-1-1, Jaimez said, the carrier kept repeating, "Don't let the dog get me!' "I told her, 'No, I have the dog. I have the dog.'' [Whittier Daily} http://radio.weblogs.com/0107233/2003/06/03.html

For a comparison of bites, see:
  J Forensic Sci. 1991 Jul;36(4):1256-61. Fatal and near-fatal animal bite injuries.
Clark MA, Sandusky GE, Hawley DA, Pless JE, Fardal PM, Tate LR.

A dog is rarely able to bite an arm or leg off unless it chews for a long time.  Wild animals can bit an arm off with one bite.



  

 

Answer by Mr Majik
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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Listen everyone, this is a website to see who has a stonger PSI, not to see who can rip better. I read this entire page and it has been mainly calling other people loser and stupid or something like that. I stand with Firedragons though, A wolf can outwit and outfight a dog because a wolf is better in every way except that people like dogs better because they are taimed. Anyone really thinks that a Pit Bull can beat a wolf must really not be listeing to the facts.  Pit Bulls only good Positive side is the Jaw, a wolf has everything, respond to this Firedragon.

 

Answer by Mr Majik
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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A wolf would win, hey FireDragons if you have aim or something, im me on mrmajik5 or unsolvedpuzzle99 thanks man

 

Answer by JustButtingIn
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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We had a pit bull when I was a kid, and the family had a long tradition of pit bull ownership going back at least to the 1910s or 1920s.  I grew up on stories about how great pit bulls were in the old days, and those stories usually ended up with some family member's pit bull taking out some other dog in an impromptu dog fight in the street.  I don't know about PSI, but these dogs have the ability to lock their jaws when they clamp down.  In one story, which I believe to be true, a dog latched onto a burglar's leg.  The burglar shot it, and then the dog had to be surgically removed from the burglar's leg.  I don't know too much about wolves, but I knew a dog that was half wolf, and it wasn't much different from a German shepherd (just a little dangerous when you came up on it from its blind side -- wolves have bad eyes).  And I know that even though a German shepherd is bigger than a pit bull, a pit bull can rip the front legs off a German shepherd, and will do so in a fight.  A wolf might be able to do better if it was a lot bigger than a shepherd, but I doubt a wolf could beat a large pit bull.  After all, wolves and dogs are part of the same species.  There's a reason why these pit bulls are illegal in some communities.  Knowing what I know, there is no way I would keep one.  And I do not believe that a person who is not a professional dog handler should have one.  These are dangerous dogs, not to be underestimated.  They're less intelligent than the average dog, they will be loyal to a human master but they can be pretty iffy around other humans.  And pit bulls definitively have an instinctive hostility towards other dogs -- not to establish dominance like in the social structure of a pack but just to participate in the pit fighting they were bred for.  To me, owning a pit bull is kind of like owning a machine gun.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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of course i disgust you, thats what happens when you cant face the facts. i know that one number was wrong, that was YOUR number from earlier, remember? the actual number is ALOT higher because many arent registered due to breed bans.then you say government is banning them, yes to get them out of the hands of stupid people(i am sorry to hear about your cousin though, that is tragic, im sorry.) but the fact is government uses these dogs in police, search and rescue, and military without incident. there have been several million pitbulls without incident, and there have only been 66 deaths ever caused by a pure breed pitbull(as of date).now considering some of these were out right murder by the owners command, and over 50% of these dogs are owned by dumb azz, irresponsible street thugs, those numbers are remarkable. Even the center for disease control supports the fact that these deaths were the result of irresponsible ownership and not breed. you have a better chance of winning a jackpot lottery 38 times in a row then you do being killed by a pitbull. horses kill more people every year then pitbulls EVER have through out documented history, so do cows. look, i enjoy these arguments(because i educate myself) but i would like to stop our insults to each other and talk facts. i believe you mean well, and i know i do to, and we both agree pitbull attacks are horrible and something needs to be done about it. i also acknowledge your wisdom on dog fighting, but PLEASSSSSE sit and think about how many of these dogs make great pets to responsible owners and unfortunately allot to irresponsible owners too. lets get these dogs out of the hands of people who only want to intimidate, laws only take them from responsible people, leaving only people who break laws to breed them.thats the problem. i dont know the answer to getting them out of the wrong hands, but taking them from the right hands isnt the answer either.for every bad one, thousands of great ones exist, can we say that about ourselves?  

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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pitbulls have killed 66 people, Americans have murdered 523,241 people on our own streets in the same time. i wonder how many pitbulls people have unjustly hurt or killed. MILLIONS!!!!! PEOPLE are the problem, you, me, everyone reading this, and this entire violent country we call home.hey i got an idea, let Americans own fully automatic machine guns and rocket launchers and see what happens.

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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JUSTBUTTININ, the only animal i know of that has locking jaws is the crocodile and alligator, THAT IS IT.  maybe the Hippo.  

No matter what your family told you, Pitbulls and neither do Wolves have locking jaws.  they wouldnt be able to eat that way, plus its just nonsense.  

I read in a book that if a wolf ever decided to attack a human(there has never been a registered attack on a human from a healthy wolf) that it would only take one to two bites and it would be over.  That came from a wildlife bioligists.  No pitbull, tosa, wolfhound, or any dog is going to beat a wolf.  

there has never been a case in which a dog has won a fight when a single wolf or pack of wolves has attacked a dog or dogs.  it just doesnt happen.

as for the scenario of a pit bull possibly grabbing a wolf by its legs, that would actually play a major downfall to the pit bull, wolves generally attack dogs from the neck, legs, hindquarters, and especially the back of the neck and shoulders.  I have read on the internet from two sources in which a lone wolf attacked two cocker spaniels, in which the wolf grabbed one of them by the shoulder and picked up shaking it, in which the article explains that wolves do this in order to break the animals neck, or there backbone, making them paralyzed.  People saw the wolf and scared it off before it had the chance to kill it.  The same wolf also attacked two border collies, and killed a couple of other local dogs.  

The websites to read up on some of this stuff is yellowstone-natl-park.com and go to wolf reports.  Their is a brief description of the spaniel attack, but there is another website that explained it in detail.  I will try to find it.

So if the pitbull tried to attack the wolf by the long legs of the wolf, most likely the wolf would pretty easily pick up the pitbull by the shoulders or top of the neck and just shake it until he litterally paralyzed it.  

I am telling you, no domestic dog would stand a chance, it just doesnt make since of dog killing a wolf.  


 

Answer by neal
Submitted on 4/28/2004
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here is a website about that incident with the cocker spaniels, as well as some other attacks.  just scroll down until you see the 'Unwanted Wolves' part.  But in all, this shouldnt downplay the wolf, the wolf is a predator and is very territorial, many people get upset when there dogs are killed by wolves, bears, coyotes, mountain lions, etc.. but the wolves get the most attention, its a shame too, because most other livestock such as cows, sheep, and goats are killed by coyotes and bears more often.  its obvious for the coyotes, livestock are relatively easy to kill.

http://www.hcn.org/servlets/hcn.Article?article_id=11233

 

Answer by JustButtinIn
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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So, Neal, I think you are not correct.  It is a common feature of "bull" dogs to have the ability to lock the jaw, which makes them able to latch onto a bull's leg without being thrown off.  In confrontations with other dogs, this makes it possible to grab and then to shake violently with the powerful neck muscles.

What you say about wolves attacking humans is also true for pit bulls dogs attacking humans, as we read all to often in the news.  So I do not understand your point.

What you say about a lone wolf attacking two cocker spaniels is exactly what happens when a pit bull confronts two normal dogs.  I know that, because our pit bull had to be put down after something like that happened when I was a kid.  (Only the dogs were German shepherds.)

May I suggest you learn something about pit bulls as part of the process of expressing opinions about them?  You seem to be expressing an emotional response based on disbelief without any real knowledge of the breed.

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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JustButtinIn, i have read about pit bulls man, and the books say that the Lock Jaw is a MYTH.  read any book about pit bulls, pit bull books will even tell you that pits dont even have the strongest jaws, their determination is what makes them better fighters than rots,etc.  Man, even the people on here who think a pit bull can beat a wolf, KNOW THAT THEY DONT HAVE LOCK JAWS.  

This is actually stupid discussing this again man, no animal except a alligator has lock jaw. that is just common sense.

also, all the attacks about pitbulls killing humans are CHILDREN.  look at all the statistics put before you.  What i read, is that if a wolf ever did decide to attack grown human being, particullarly a man, it would only take a few bites.  

You can go to a official pitbull website and they will tell you they dont have lockjaw, its just stupid to imagine that.

And if they did, the received it from the WOLF, because ALL dogs descended from wolves.  and wolves dont even have lock jaw, neither do bears, tigers, lions, hyenas, etc.

this seems stupid since we cant even make you understand that pits dont have lock jaws.

also, what about the scenario i explained to you about the neck and shoulders that the wolf would get a hold of..  

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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this is just getting funny, first firedragon, you need help.. and you still have no clue about anything i listed..

japan, dogfighting, traditional japanese dogfighting,wolves, weightpulling, pit bulls, anything!! you are cracking me up!!  
first i love how you tell me wolf facts.. umm i used to work at san diego,as well as several other zoos, i currently work with exotic animals including wolves everyday..  too funny.. ever seen a wolf take down prey in person? i have.. ever seen wolves fighting in person? i have.. ever been to japan? i have.. ever worked with pits? i have. i'm sure your answer is "NO" concerning all the questions..  it is true more people are killed by horses than dogs each year.. and fatal dog attacks make up less than 1/10th of 1% of all dog attacks, so basing your argument on those statistics is childish..even the CDC disagrees with you..  by the way many matches of dogs and wolves, dogs and cougars, dogs and jaguars,etc have taken place.. or did you not know that? heck department stores sold exotic animals many years ago, look up the jaguar fight they sponsored. not a pit though.. it is obvious that you are a clueless individual..  by the way, you said in weight pulling that pit people had to start their own contests because they lost to other dogs.. LMFAO  look up weight pulling competitions... they say the opposite.. also pits have pulled much more than a coupe hundred pounds in snow/sled contests.. and ALL dogs pull more on rail/track/wheel competitions..  also you said pits pull only a couple of inches, but alaskan weightpulling is held over several hundred feet.. another bunch of BS.. 16foot tournaments are the norm.. 60 seconds..  you need help man.. why do you think you need to lie so much?  come back when you have a clue...

BTW pits can't "lock" their jaws..

 

Answer by MROMRO
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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"NICKNAME"  I love people like you!  If you don't like the US get out.  More people were killed by Saddam in one year.  Why don't you move to one of those countries if this on is so bad.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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to-MROMRO    im talking about person on person violent crimes not political or war crimes, yes i love this country too but thats a different story my point was to compare us to pits and who has a more violent history of unpredictfulness(not sure if thats a word). you took what i said personally and all wrong, but thats okay, i forgive you, after all .......your only American.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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im not trying to be offensive i just like using(my right as an American)to express my point of views just like yourself.

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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i just went back and reread everything, and i think tigercats12 knows more then the rest of us put together, hey tigercats, i would like to hear your opinion about pitbulls making good pets for SOME people or not.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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I think that Tigercats is a kid.  You just don't sound very intelligent.  You have no support.  I have never worked with wolves, but I have hunted and know about wolves.  I also know that everyone knows that a wolf is MUCH more dangerous than a pit.  

Also, you keep talking about ALL dogs and bites. I am only concerned about pits and the deaths they inflict.  Pits are less than one percent of the dog population and they inflicted the majority of the deaths in humans in 1987 and 1988.  The CDC didn't disagree with me, idiot.  That was a source I used.  After this period, the pit was banned in many cities and the stats dropped.

Pits killed mostly children....women .. and people that were disabled.  After all ... they are a small dog.  Neal mentioned that they don't even have the strongest bite...I think that this is true also because the bite force is generally a different dog when they compare wild animal bites.

A real biter is the hyena.  It has white poop...you know why? It eats the entire animal....hoves, horns, bones.  The bones make the poop white.  The parts that are not digested are vomitted.  They can eat the entire dog, bones and all.  Now, THAT's a bite.

 

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe Idaho North
Submitted on 4/29/2004
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I can confirm earlier post about wolf going for back of neck---killing zone.  We know domestic dogs came from wolves, and certuries of selective breeding.  In his early time my Samoyed, Russian snow country dog from 600 miles East of Finland, to demonstrate dominance over smaller dog, started closing his big jaws on back of neck of other dog, other dog SCREAMED, and I yelled for him to stop---he stopped.  Had I not been there, I don't know if the other dog would have survived.  This was UNPROVOKED!  It's just like a wolf show of dominance.  My Samoyed remembered, in his genetics, how a wolf establishes dominance.  Any Rottweiler, Tosa, or Pit, American Bulldog etc., if it gets wolf bite into back of neck, will perish on the spot.  Also---my Samoyed can easily stand weather to kill any  pit bull.  Just place the pit in sub zero weather for an hour, my dog takes it easily, FIRST breed to BOTH North and SOUTH poles!  Samoyeds historically have been used to ward off wolves; however, it could be a 7 to 1 deal, also that humans were with the dog, and wolves try to avoid humans.

 

Answer by jasper
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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I'm just curious how any of you got your p.c.s ,because with the exception of "tigercat12" and "nickname" I'm not sure that any of you passed 8th grade, anyways i wont be coming back here to read so you need not waste your time insulting me, but feel free too if it will make your little pee brains feel better. just so you know tigercat12 is accurate on everything, and nickname has some really good points, but its wasted energy on a battle that can't be won. sorry.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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Yea, yea, Jasper..and how would you know about good points?  Tiger and nick are the same guy, and he made terrible points!!!  Nothing he said was supported.  Do you like myths?  Haha!

You can also read this article.
Wong, JK, Blenkinsop, B, Sweet, J., Wood, R. A comparison of bitemark injuries between fatal wolf and domestic dog attacks. J Forensic Odontostomatol. 1999, 17, 10-15.

"Bite force is linked to the size of an animal," explained Kent Vliet, a University of Florida zoologist who headed up the study. "Since the report was published, we measured the bite of a wild gator, even bigger than Hercules at 13 1/2 feet in length missing the end of his tail. He bit down with a force of 2,960 pounds."

To put the record measurement into perspective, hyenas, which are bone-crushing mammals, have a bite force of 1,000 pounds, slightly more than the 940 recorded for lions. Dusky sharks manage 330 pounds of force, and a common dog, the Labrador, bites with 125 pounds of force. Humans surprisingly beat out the pet dog, and measured in at 170 pounds of force.

























 

Answer by skeptic/sage
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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what is apparent is that a wolf from the wild has never fought a game-bred pit bull in a fighting pit.  never.  all of this mental and verbal masterbation could be averted by such a contest.  but, hey, that would spoil the fun.....wouldn't it

 

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe Idaho North
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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force said of hyena jaws you use seems incorrect

I see many references that say, hyena has strongest jaws of any land animal

One reference said, 1,700 lbs force; you said, 1,000

A dog book on pit bulls said, this dog has around 2,000 lbs force

If the dog has 2,000 and hyena has 1,700, then the dog has harder bite---or someone is mistaken

book by wolf expert said, wolf has about 1,500 lbs

another source said, bite of wolverine surpasses wolf bite in force

it seems hard to feature a 50 lb beast has harder bite than 550 lb lion if so this is an oddity

as for the lion, you see, a cat is less interested in crushing bone, than in making deep piercing puncture wounds, to sever arteries, nerves, etc. a lion's fangs look like railroad spikes

I have no idea how hard a lion can bite; however, that's a 550 lb cat compared to a 170 lb hyena

I saw lion dragging 2,000 pound cape buffalo after kill I dearly doubt the hyena could do THAT and another lion breaking a hyena's back by beating it with its front legs!

the thing about the alligator is true, seen in a recent National Geographic

still, it could be less dangerous to try holding those jaws shut, than those of the other animals, because they have a lot of strength also in opening them, while the gator is weaker than any of them in opening muscles

one thing is without dispute, humans have most morbid curiousity of any creature

I too would wish to know truth as to dominance and bite force; however, we have no right to do what is necessary to find truth

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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Yea, yea, yea.  My little 15 year old sister has never fought Muhammad Ali when he was at his prime.  I wonder who would win?  Two guesses, the first two don't count.

As mentioned in the scientific reference, the size of the dog determines the bite force (all things equal).


The fact is … pit bulls do not bite harder than other dogs their size.  All studies indicate that larger dogs have stronger bites.  The TV show discovery recently measured the wolf, using this same criteria, and found that the wolf’s bite was about ten time that of the Rottweiler.  When converted to PSO, the Rottweiler here has a bite of about three times the pit bulls cited.

Medical studies on animals that have been killed by wolves and pit bulls indicate the damage by the dog needed much longer and more bites to prove fatal.  It is total nonsense to put this dog in such an elite class.  It’s just a little domestic dog!!!

Measurement of Rottweiler’s Biting Force

By Thanassis Papioannou
Senior Research Engineer
Research and Technology Development
Cedars-Sinai Med Center

OBJECTIVE:  The objective of this study was to measure the bite force of a Rottweiler

Force Sensor:  Force measurements were conducted with a compression only force sensor (Model SBC500, Mark-10).

RESULTS:  figures 2a-d show the results of all four successful trials.  Maximum bite force recorded  were -11 lb. (fig 2a), -47 lb. (fig. 2b), -53 lb. (fig. 2C), and -49 lb. (fig 2d).  Expanded views of the observed forces around their maximum values are shown in figures 3-6.

DISCUSSION/CONCLUSION:  The results shown above present bite strengths that can be translated into significant figures. The biting pressure can be estimated by taking into account the number of teeth making contact and the contact area per tooth.  Significant pressures reaching hundreds to thousands of pounds PSI are indicated.

   Contact Area Per Tooth
   1 mm2   2 mm2
A   1,774   884
B   7,581   3,790
C   8,387   4,194
D   7,903   3,952


 

Answer by firedragons
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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A pit bull cannot even beat a large french poodle!! A woman walking her pit was attacked by an ass kicking large French poodle that wailed on the pit and then turned on the woman!!!

www.realgsd.info/GSDinfo/News/dogfight.htm  

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 4/30/2004
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first of all, you say me and tigercat12 are the same person but, he seems very educated on wildlife, but myself has not said one word on that subject because i don't know nor do i try to sound like i do. so how is your theory possible? second you say i don't support my posts, so here you go. go to www.cdc.gov. the American veterinary medical association, under the topic of "a community approach to dog bite prevention" says on page 1733 "singling out 1 or 2 breeds for control can result in a false sense of accomplishment.DOING SO IGNORES THE TRUE SCOPE OF THE PROBLEM and will not result in a responsible approach to protecting a community's citizens"then check out under publications..dog bites on page 466 the cdc says "although some breeds were disproportionately represented in the FATAL attacks described in this report,the representation of breeds CHANGES over time.as a result,targeting a specific breed may be unproductive;a more effective approach may be to TARGET CHRONICALLY IRRESPONSIBLE DOG OWNERS." then look at breeds involved in fatal human attacks, on page 839 it says "less responsible owners or owners who want to foster aggression in there dogs may be drawn differentially to certain breeds" then under the subject of "which dogs bite?a case control study of risk factors" you will see a list of the most common dogs to bite as follows...akita-2.8% chihuahua-1.1% chow chow-17.4% cocker spaniel-4.5% collie-4.5% Doberman-3.4% Germain Shepard-19.1% golden retriever-1.1% labs-5.1% poodle-2.2% Scottish terrier-1.7% sheepdog-1.1% unknown-10.1% ALL OTHER 166 BREEDS 25.8% how is it the pitbull along with 165 other breeds only accounts for 1/4 of bites if there so horrible? the pitbull isn't even on the list of dogs most likely to bite.plus there is much more detailed information on these subjects, i just don't want to type it all.do you understand what i just wrote or do you need someone to explain it to you. either your c.d.c. you get facts from stands for center of dumb children or your just a liar. you better hope your mommy don't find out or she might ground you.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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There are different methods of reporting bite force.  For example, in the one above from Cedars-Sinai Med Center they used four teeth.  Think of it this way.  If a woman weighs 100 pounds she exerts a certain force downward from her mass; however, if she lays down, there is less weight per square inch than if she is on high heels.  Think about the pressure per square inch if she is on high heels...think about a woman laying on you and then stepping on you with high heels...then think about her using one heel...it doubles the PSI.

The Hyena has the strongest jaws of any mammal ever tested ... everyone is in agreement here.  The lion is actually not too far behind.  OK.  But the Alligator has the most bite of any animal.  You see, when you study mammals, you learn some characteristics of them ... but there are many.  One is that they have specialized teeth.  Alligators don't, so the alligator doesn't chew his food ... the teeth holds the food, along with clamp pressure.  He crushes the bones in two.

The Rot had a deflection of 57 pounds on that instrument.  However, you take this weight and figure out the pressure per square inch ... it was actually 1mm squared.  It adds to the pressure by being a smaller surface area.  A wooden floor that is large might hold hundreds of thousands of pounds.  Concentrate that weight upon a very small area, say the size of a screw and it will go right through the wood.

Now, when they just give you deflection readings, you get the force applied and it translate to "weight" in a way. Weight is a force and is not the same as mass...the "weight" is a measurement of how hard a body pushes down with gravity.  PSI is different.  It measures the pressure exerted at a specific area, in this case an inch squared.  Now the Rot was measured in PSI, but the area was given in MM..looks like it would be PSMM (pounds per square milimeter), but he converted these figures.

There are many concepts involved when you test bite force.  It's important to be uniform in the observations.  Things can be different...if you use four teeth, it will decrease PSI by a factor of four!!!

At any rate, the RATIO is the same.  A wolf has AT LEAST four time the bite of any dog.  A large dog generally has a stronger bite than a small dog.

A wolf can bit through a cow thigh in about six chomps.  It would take a dog WEEKS to bite through a cow's thighbone.  An alligator can crush a cow's thigh in one crunch.

Wild scavengers often has a powerful bit.  The animal needs fat and most wild animals don't have much fat.  The scavenger takes it from the bone.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Also, in the general scheme of things, the deflection measurement is the most accurate.  Once you know this, you can know the force exerted.  Then, you can have a fair comparison.

If you weigh 150 pounds, you can easily stand on a wooden floor.  Try putting your weight on an ice pick that has the point touching the floor.  You will find that the pick will penetrate the surface of the wood and finally bind and stick some distance into the wood.  You don't weigh more, you are putting your weight in a very small area and this is enough to bite into the wood.

When you think of "bite" you think of the force clamping down of something, not the pressure at the point of a tooth.  Sometimes, they use one tooth...sometimes, two.  In this test study, they used four.  The less teeth used, the large the PSI.

So, it would be alligator, hyena, lion, wolf, Big Dog, Small Dog.

The pit is a small dog, commonly 38 pounds or around there.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Nickname, Tigercats is lying about working with animals. Neither of you are too bright.

I have read this report; however, it was taken from another report that was done by the American Vet Assoc.  The fact is that pits were responsible for the MAJORITY of the deaths in 87 and 88.  They are only a small percentage of the dogs.  They were great about getting together stats, no so smart about how they arranged them.

If you take the twenty year period, a large number of Rots were also responsible; however, the pit became the main culprit until it was banned in most cities.  Then the deaths dropped.

Pit bulls are just little dogs.  If you read about the woman recently killed in Colorado, several pits ran rampant. They attacks a few people and some dogs ... but no fatalities.  Finally, they attacked a small older woman and killed her.  They weren't able to kill anyone else and they didn't kill the dogs either.

The woman was apparently breeding dogs for fighting and had a treadmill.  She had numerous citations.

It doesn't matter if pit bulls win congeniality contests or even if they are part human.   They have accounted for the majority of the deaths in the past.  Bites don't mean for much .... I am only concerned with deaths.  Large dogs of any breed should not be around children simply because children can easily be killed or seriously injured by a big dog.  I would not hesitate to leave a young child of seven or eight with a Chihuahua.  I wouldn't leave the child with a pit bull, Mastif, or other large dogs .... and viscious dogs.


 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Well, nickname ... the reason I know that you and Tigercat are the same is that .. both of you are ignorant and seem to have a learning disability as well.  Tigercat hasn't been around animals!!! Come on!  You just used that to "assert" an expert authority.  It doesn't work dude. When you sound completely stupid, it doesn't matter if you tell people you are an expert.  People know.

Both of you make the same mistakes.  Neither of you have too much knowledge of the subject, but surf the net trying to find support for your beliefs.  The information about pit bulls in Japan was found at a sight that said the pits could only fight the small runts of the Tosa and even then ... the Tosa did quite well.  You left off much of the information.
You quoted a pit bull site about the study published by the CDC.  They took information from other studies and analyzed it.  They didn't recommend against breed specific bans .. it's just that this is not enough to eliminate the bites....but it would sure drastically lower deaths.  I think dog bites for many people are good things.  People should stay in their own yards and stay clear of strange animals.

You don't read all the posts.  You just say things off the top of your head.  You are obviously lazy and a poor student or just a kid.  It's rare to find a poster that doesn't really have any redeeming points at all.  You seem to get everything wrong.  Plus, you don't read the previous posts ... and you miss the important issues.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Pit bulls are just little dogs. They are easily controled by a healthy adult male.
However, it's often unpredictable and mean!

Sheriff's search dog wounded in attack by pit bull
AIMEE JUAREZ
Herald Staff Writer

BRADENTON - A law enforcement dog is expected to miss a week's worth of work after it was attacked by a large pit bull.

The Belgian Malinois named Quinto was aiding Manatee County Sheriff's Deputy Thomas W. Franklin, 36, and Deputy Daniel K. Parham, 30, in the search for a suspect at the Water-Preston Farms property, 4011 115 St. W., at about 10:45 p.m. Saturday when a large unsecured pit bull bit Quinto's right hind leg, leaving two puncture wounds, according to a report from the sheriff's office.

Franklin, Quinto's owner, kicked the pit bull in an effort to stop the attack, the report stated. The pit bull then charged at Parham. Both deputies, who are dog handlers with the sheriff's office, drew their guns and fired multiple rounds that struck the pit bull, according to the report.



 

Answer by poor CHRISTIAN
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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DEAR "CHRISTIAN",

see what you have started here.  i never realized that there was so much to learn about this subject, OR that it would be so contentious.

i am not nearly as afraid of the PB OR the poor wolf as i am some of the people who post to this website.

one of the many things that i have learned here is that the wolf seems only to kill when it must eat to keep from starving to death (what better reason could there be?) or to defend its territory from something that wishes to steal it away.  thus i have gained a new respect for and even admiration for this animal (who was probably created by the same power that created us (whatever that power was).

i have also learned a great deal about the PB and respect it more as well, but at the same time feel pity for the PB.

whereas the wolf lives mostly in the wild and behaves the way he was created, the poor PB lives mostly in captivity, as is or can be the slave of people.  yes, they can be ferocious and dangerous, but we people bred and trained them to be this way for our own devious purposes.

the wolf is free, but the PB is pretty much a hostage.  i would much rather be a wolf!

thank you.  SKEPTIC no more.

 

Answer by Neal
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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BLACKFOOT, the statistics you are hearing are i believe, different measurments.  psi is pound per square inch. thats why you will hear 1500 psi, not just pounds.  The pounds of pressure a wolf has in its jaw is 500 pounds or whatever it is.  

i believe it is separate measurements.  

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/1/2004
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Yes, this is EXACTLY right.  If the measurements are standard, the wolf has about four times the bite force.

I am not condemning the pit bull.  The lion isn't viscious for eating someone ... but he is an unacceptable hazard to humans.  So, you can't have lions at your home in many cities.  The pit bull should be this way too.

Pit bulls tend to be obsessed....with playing with something, or any type of chore.  They are also obsessed with biting and they will target  you if you are weak.  There are many dogs to have as pets.  People that have pits and children in the house are dirt.  Just plain dirt.  Not just stupid, but criminal.  It's like these people that hire known child molesters for baby sitters ... or a fox to guard the hen house.  What is wrong with them?

 

Answer by Blackfoot Tribe
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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hey Firedragons---please don't put words in other people's mouths; don't act like you have been authorized to speak for everyone else!  You say everyone is in agreement that the hyena has the strongest jaws of any mammal.  There is NOT universal consensus about that.  Absolutely NOT!

People posting here are never going to settle the argument.  If I saw objective proof about the hyena being #1, I would then agree to that proof.  But no proof has been supplied.  Researchers in Africa have indeed studied the hyena.  But I doubt that those same researchers have studied other bites.  A grizzly bear bit through a three quarter inch steel bolt, for instance.  Sorry, I don't have page #, name of publication, date, city in which publication is published, author name, etc.  I did see this report before, but at the moment, it wasn't of interest to me.

I also feel, from having collected over 100 books which describe the wolverine, that this 40 to 60 pound beast could have stronger jaws than a hyena.  Various sources concede the wolverine jaw to be more powerful than the wolf.  In any case I have no doubt that a healthy specimen could plow his way through a 170 lb hyena, because its claws are extremely dangerous, giving it the same advantage a feline has over a canine (take note, I did NOT say hyenas are either "canine" or "feline").

A wolverine captured in a sheet steel oil drum escaped by chewing through at the point of the bung hole (drain hole) at the bottom---where the metal is fortified with an additional steel ring.  Trappers also report cases of wolverines breaking the metal chains anchoring leg hold traps to trees.

No, everyone is NOT in agreement about the hyena!  Then, what of those 2200lb polar bears?  Come on, hyena researchers, do some traveling, don't be stuck in Africa!

 

Answer by nickname
Submitted on 5/2/2004
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well this will be my last post, as jasper said this is just a battle that cant be won. people cant open there eyes to see that it isnt the pitbull that is dangerous, it is the pitbull owned by a dangerous person that is dangerous, just as is a gun or a knife,these are not dangerous all by themselves, only when in the hands of a dangerous person. firedragons has listed some true facts along with ALOT of lies to deceive you all and shape your opinions based on his own personal beliefs. i beg of you all, to check out these subjects for yourselves, and create your own opinions based on more then just me or firedragons.i dont think he knows hes lying, i just think he honestly believes his own statements, which is the mark of a genius, or a complete fool.i already know the answer to this, but i refuse to continue these insults that only feed his fire.the more i try to open his mind, the more he closes it. i feel sorry for you firedragons, some people try to better themselves and prosper, others try to push there will upon this world, and live in never ending conflict. i hope someday you learn to keep on learning. dont shut this world out, embrace it, and it will embrace you. good luck to all.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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Dude, there were many lies told here, but all by you.

For example, there are only a few places in the USA that has wolves in captivity and they must be registered and for scientific purposes because wolves are protected (even the wolves that can be hunted in Alaska are protected).  He said wolves rarely injure each other when they fight...everyone knows that wolves kill themselves fighting.  It's the number one reason for their death.

You believe in myths and this makes you ignorant.  You lie to support these myths and mislead ... this makes you stupid.  Sorry dude, I have no respect for that behavior.

You compare dogs with guns.  Well, not all dogs are banned idiot!  There are more than 100 million guns in the USA, but some are banned to the public. For example, unless you have a license, you can't have a liquid cooled 50cal automatic rifle.  But you can have shot guns, rifles, and handguns...there are exceptions to that, but basically it's OK.

I am not promoting the idea that DOGS should be banned.  I have a few myself.  I am just saying that a large dog should not be around children.  Pit bulls should NEVER be around children.

That's a matter of law and opinion.  The initial question was about PSI and the wolf vs the pit.  Now, there is NO doubt about this question....the wolf is MUCH larger in terms of size and PSI bite force!!!  Only and idiot continues saying the pit has stronger jaws.

Hey, don't feel sorry for me dude.  I am not the one that's a moron.  You are a little crazy.  You are wrong and you persist without any type of valid argument!!!

And "Indian" ... when I say most agree the hyena has the hardest bite of any mammal, I am not referring to YOU dude.  I am referring to scientist.  You obviously are not a scientist.  I have never read any other source that said there was a mammal with a stronger bite...if you have read a source, supply one!!! You sound a lot like ... nickname.  Cite your source, dude!

From the University of CA:
"Data from CT scans of the skull and jaws of Crocuta provide important information that complements growth studies. Bite strength and feeding behavior are affected by growth, which is important to young Crocuta making the transition to adulthood. The jaws of adult Crocuta are designed to withstand the forces produced when the animal employs the killing bite with the canines and the cracking of bones with the premolars. Crocuta dentaries are thickened with compact bone below and behind the premolars. This morphology acts as a buttress against bending during unilateral biting of tough foods such as bone."
http://digimorph.org/specimens/Crocuta_crocuta/
Q: Is it true that they're just scavengers?
A: No. Spotted hyenas kill their own prey more often than they scavenge. Favorite prey include wildebeests and zebras. But most carnivores, hyenas included, will scavenge when they get a chance.
Q: I've heard hyenas follow lions around and live off their kills.
A: It's more often the other way around. Lions often take over hyenas' kills; the males will walk right into a clan of feeding hyenas and take the carcass from them. Hyenas will steal kills from lionesses if no male lions are around and they badly outnumber the lionesses.

Spotted Hyena kills and eats a Rock Python
At 7.30 this morning we were on the plain to the west of Masira Hill. We were watching a Wahlberg's Eagle perched in a Balanites Tree when I noticed a spotted hyena struggling in the grass with something. We drove up to it and, as we got there, saw the hyena bite through a big python's spine. The snake immediately stopped struggling. I estimated the python to be between two and three metres long. The hyena grabbed the snake in its jaws about half way down the body and carried it away a few meters from us. The hyena was very tired and slowly began to eat the python, starting at the bite. We watched amazed for half an hour and left the hyena still eating the python.
Wilfred Lembris
Rensberger, J. M. (in press). Functional differentiation of the enamel microstructure in the canine of the spotted hyena, Crocuta crocuta. Scanning Microscopy.


The University of Florida, , Florida State University and the National Geographic Society have sponsored studies on animal bite force. YOu can try to speak with Kent Vliet and reach him through 352 392 3054.  



 

Answer by in the know
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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firedragons, stop talking out your ass, a pit with a 38psi bite, look at the jaws, head and neck they are built for extreme power

 

Answer by Blackfoot
Submitted on 5/3/2004
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Firedragons you are a tireless dogmatic.  Look at your original post.  You said "everyone" is in agreement about hyena bite being most powerful.  After I posted comments, you then said "most" agree.  WHICH scientists are you speaking of?  Just the ones who studied hyenas and found their jaws are indeed powerful.  I have searched the web, and found none of these hyena researchers testing other species.  They started with an assumption and "proved" it by circular reasoning.  I have seen no documented references from you, because you haven't mentioned any.  You are putting words in the scientists mouths.  Let me hear from those who have tested wolverine and Kodiak bear bites.  You have a world view in which you picked a favorite, and by God you're going to stick with that no matter what.  I know grizzlies have been studied but I never saw ANY study measuring their bites and wolverine jaws ("crushes bones like straw") have been compared to hyena in power as far as I can see the issue is open to dispute and you have not convinced me.  How about the rest of you---do you notice how stubborn this fellow is?  If he becomes a meteorologist he'll say, "wet streets cause rain!"  I choose to stay open minded as to bite force of these species and I am convinced he also has underrated the pit bull.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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Let me explain English to you a little since you seem to have some difficulty.

"Everyone" is not a categorical statement.  It is often used in context of recognition.  In other words, EVERYONE in the scientific community seems to agree here.  If you know exceptions, post them along with your citations!!  I don't include you in this statement because you are not a scientist and you seem to barely comprehend some of this.
Bears can bite hard, it's true but I have already stated how the bite is determined by estimation and also by measurement.
Haha!  I have cited institutions that test bite power and the number.  Either you are too stupid to read the post completely, or you are such a loser that your mind doesn't pick it up .... at any rate, talk is cheap .. obviously from listening to you.

For those that feel the debate is over, it is really.  You haven't presented anything on your behalf that supports your view except some "armchair" logic.

You create your own arguments and then you break them down.  You also take up issues that aren't important.  I have explained the term "everyone" so that you might learn a little.  I know you are a native speaker, but your grasp of the language seems week.  You are also very stupid ... communication allows for explaination and defining meanings.

Now, hopefully you understand.  I know you make up your arguments for and against pit bulls ... haha! Loser.  I guess you are trying to give some arguments, none of which are done well.  Again, there is one university that is testing bite force by sponsor.  I have cited this.  As for the size of the jaws...get over it dude.  Pits are small dogs.  Look at mastiffs or rots...they have MUCH bigger jaws.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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These are the measurements, from the most powerful down. They have measured many mammals, dogs, reptiles and so on...
Now ... CITE a source, not from your "mind" that tells a different story from the same bag of beans.  In other words, DIRECTLY compares two or three mammals with the SPOTTED hyena the loser.  Now, you can't get your information from bath room walls, voices speaking to you .... in your mind and so on.  You must find a site that lists the Hyena (Spotted only) second to another mammal.  Alligators are not mammals, just for your information.  Here's the webpage...
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/digest/stories/chomper0903.html


Research: Alligator is animal kingdom champion chomper
    The lion has its roar, the cheetah its speed. But the beast with the most powerful bite? The alligator.
     So say three researchers who recently completed a study measuring the force alligators exert when they clamp down their toothy jaws.

      American alligators, known scientifically as Alligator mississippiensis, bite harder than any other member of the animal kingdom yet studied, including lions, hyenas, some species of sharks and wolves, not to mention people, said Kent Vliet, a University of Florida zoologist. In fact, their chomp may even be mightier than some species among history’s most-celebrated masticators, the dinosaurs, he said.

    “Alligators do these excruciatingly powerful bites,” he said. “They really just lay into it. You can see their neck muscles flex.”

    Vliet is an author of a paper about alligators’ biting prowess that appeared last month in the Journal of Zoology of London. The two others are Gregory Erickson, a professor of anatomy and vertebrate paleobiology at Florida State University in Tallahassee, and Kristopher Lappin, a biologist at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff.

   To test the gators’ bites, the scientists built “bite bars” – metal bars resembling large tuning forks. The bars, which were covered in leather to prevent damage to the alligators’ teeth, contained strain gauges that measure force. The researchers presented the bars, which were of varying length and thickness for different sized alligators, to more than 40 captive gators ranging from about 1 foot to over 12 feet at an alligator farm.

  The gators did the rest.

“The hardest part of the work was getting the bite bar back from them, because they’d often hold onto it for 20 minutes, and it is delicate equipment,” Vliet said. “We didn’t really want them walking off with it.” Not surprisingly, the bigger the alligator, the harder the bite. The largest, a nearly 12 1/2 -foot behemoth weighing 665 pounds named Hercules, bit down with a more than a ton of force – 2,125 pounds, to be exact, or nearly as much force as the weight of a small sedan.

    That’s more forceful than all living animals measured, Vliet said. The lion, for example, has a bite force of about 940 pounds, slightly less than the hyena’s roughly 1,000 pounds. The only shark tested, the dusky shark, achieves about 330 pounds, while a common dog, the Labrador, bites at a mere 125 pounds or so. Anyone ever jawed by a toddler might judge the strength of the human bite force to be near infinite. But people bite at a maximum force of about 170 pounds, just one-thirteenth the strength of a large gator. Vliet said Tyrannosaurus rex may have bitten with a force of some 3,300 pounds. However, smaller theropod dinosaurs, or bipedal carnivorous dinosaurs, may have bitten with a force of no more than 450 pounds.


 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 5/4/2004
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my god fire, how short was the bus you rode to school?  you are an wanna be.. as i said many times..  about the ONLY thing you have posted correctly concerns the force of a hyena's jaws..  BTW i have probably been working with animals since you were nursing on your momma's breast..  so i will leave the wanna be stuff to you..  ok we know you are clueless concerning everything i mentioned before.. that is a given, based on YOUR posts..  also nick and i are NOT the same person nor do i have a clue who he/she is.. now to throw a wrench in your machine, the lion does not have the most powerful jaws of the big cats, nor does the tiger.. it is the jaguar that comes in first, second only to the spotted hyena..as far as mammals go at least.. now granted this is not 100%gospel, but it is the general thought of almost every person working or researching anything in the animal fields.. and only 3 hyena species are considered powerful biters.. also there have been several studies done with several croc subspecies that disprove the alligator theory.. yet none have been conclusive.. and as far as wolves killing each other fighting among themselves, you don't know much about wolves do you? the most common "fights" among pack mates are merely threat displays.. and almost NEVER cause anything more than a superficial injury.. wolves almost NEVER kill each other in one on one fights..in the overwhelming majority of wolf on wolf deaths, the death resulted from an attack of several pack memebers.. also the reason wolf deaths between pack mates is rare, is because they are wild animals..  in almost every pack oriented animal(lion prides,wolf packs ,baboon troops) fights to the death are quite rare when viewed as one on one fights.. this is for several main reasons, but the main reasons are simple dominance, and prevention of injury.. an injured wolf does not help in the hunt.. thus the reason for the threat display types of fights.. same goes for lion etc.. while in most cases the injured animal does still travel and eat off the pack, it is not the position either the animal nor the pack prefers.. i'm not sure why you lie so much, maybe some mental instability you have, the need to be right all the time.. who knows.. but ANYONE with ANY knowledge on ANY of the subjects can see thru your BS.. my guess is that you can't grasp that..  btw thank you to the people that complimented me..contrary to fire's whinings, i have been working with domestic and exotic animals for many many years..unlike fire(i might add).

i would say lets have a quiz for fire dragon but he would just go look up the answers and then act like he knew it all along..  lol

hey fire what happens if you breed a liger and a tigon? super sized babies? dwarves,can't be done, they don't exist,what?
have fun looking it up..lol

 

Answer by In the know
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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Firedragons, you must eat Duracel batteries for breakfast cos you just go on an on an on an on. Back to the original question, which has more psi in its bite, i would rank them almost level. Because they both have the amazing ability to bite an animal which dwarfs itself, and hang on no matter how much it tosses. But my favourite is the pitbull, GO ON MY SON!  

 

Answer by In the know
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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Firedragons, you must eat Duracell batteries for breakfast cos you just go on an on an on an on. Back to the original question, which has more psi in its bite, i would rank them almost level. Because they both have the amazing ability to bite an animal which dwarfs itself, and hang on no matter how much it tosses. But my favourite is the pitbull, GO ON MY SON!  

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/5/2004
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Tigercat, I don't think you fool anyone.

First of all, what you asked is childish and something that demonstrates you don't know anything about dogs, dog fighting, or Japan.  You are a fool.  Haha! Loser!  I doubt if there are actually many posters on this page besides yourself and your screen names because people would become outraged at your stupidity.

As for wolves and killing each other, that's the number or two cause of death among wolves.  I have already posted this information and where it can be found.  You are so stupid!  The federal government keeps track of what kills wolves.  It's not a surprise.  

You are just stupid.  The lion's jaws are much stranger than the little jag!!  You are an idiot!  The wolf can bite harder that a jag!  Anyway, I have posted this and my citations.

You don't learn much either, do you?

 

Answer by jus came, jus left
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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WOW, just found this site and read it all.what a waste of time

 

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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How could I correct every fallacious statement on this page? I couldn't.
But I will say this, dogs are wolves! Wolves that have had their evolution directed by man in specific ways to better suit them to specific tasks. The greyhound IS faster than the wolf, the bloodhound DOES have a better nose than the wolf and the pyreneese IS better at guarding flocks of sheep then wolves would be.
No one denies this.
But for some reason when it comes to fighting I guess you all think man just made heaps of blunders through history and in breeding for superior fighting dogs they somehow degraded the fighting ability of the animals they were breeding. Quite uncharacteristic I must say, rather strange indeed.
Ofcourse a pitbull will beat a wolf in a fight, suggesting otherwise is like suggesting a pitbull will be more successful trying to survive in the alaskan wilderness than a wolf would be
Ofcourse it would not, it has given up a plethora of survival traits in favour of traits to make it a better fighter.
Same goes for all the breeds with combative histories. The pitbull isn't the only breed that will beat a wolf in a fight. The wolf would probably be ranked somewhere like 26th or something.
It would be ranked 1st in the category nature 'bred' it for, which is survival in the environment it adapted to.
Its been fun ending this discussion, good night

 

Answer by Oliver
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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How could I correct every fallacious statement on this page? I couldn't.
But I will say this, dogs are wolves! Wolves that have had their evolution directed by man in specific ways to better suit them to specific tasks. The greyhound IS faster than the wolf, the bloodhound DOES have a better nose than the wolf and the pyreneese IS better at guarding flocks of sheep then wolves would be.
No one denies this.
But for some reason when it comes to fighting I guess you all think man just made heaps of blunders through history and in breeding for superior fighting dogs they somehow degraded the fighting ability of the animals they were breeding. Quite uncharacteristic I must say, rather strange indeed.
Ofcourse a pitbull will beat a wolf in a fight, suggesting otherwise is like suggesting a pitbull will be more successful trying to survive in the alaskan wilderness than a wolf would be
Ofcourse it would not, it has given up a plethora of survival traits in favour of traits to make it a better fighter.
Same goes for all the breeds with combative histories. The pitbull isn't the only breed that will beat a wolf in a fight. The wolf would probably be ranked somewhere like 26th or something.
It would be ranked 1st in the category nature 'bred' it for, which is survival in the environment it adapted to.
Its been fun ending this discussion, good night

 

Answer by tigercats12
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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oh i see, you couldn't answer the simple question... LOL  there is a shocker..  well you have just proven once again that you are an idiot when it comes to animal knowledge..  btw i am not any other screen names on here.. but nice try, i guess it is hard for you to see that many others can see through your bs..  i find it funny that you can't answer simple questions about subjects you debate...  now lets get to your latest stupid points...

let's see the first part was merely a childish attempt to avoid a simple question, so we will skip that.

"As for wolves and killing each other, that's the number or two cause of death among wolves.  I have already posted this information and where it can be found.  You are so stupid!  The federal government keeps track of what kills wolves.  It's not a surprise"

again your lack of knowledge shines through..  wolf on wolf death is common, wolf on wolf death in the pack is uncommon.. outside of the pack, as i have said many times, it is NOT, the overwhelming majority of the time,one on one fights.. it is several members of a pack attacking a lone stray wolf, a wolf from another pack that has invaded their territiory, etc...  maybe somewhere in your feeble mind you will grasp that this time.

"The lion's jaws are much stranger than the little jag!!  You are an idiot!  The wolf can bite harder that a jag!  Anyway, I have posted this and my citations."

it must be annoying having to wear that helmet all the time..  lol  you are making this TOO EASY..  your own words prove that you know nothing about animals..  umm hey genius(lol) look up what you just said .. then come back and be an adult and admit you were wrong.. because every person, in all the animal fields, just hurt themselves laughing at your statement..  you are a wanna be in the purest form...even wolves are laughing at you.

 

Answer by can i join?
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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hey what if we took the wolf and breed it specifically for fighting abilities and gameness. then over the coarse of time we could create the ultimate fighting dog. we could use this dog to fulfill all of our sick tendencies of making animals suffer for our own enjoyment and profit.then we could start a site on the web to discuss who would win in a fight. the original wolf or the one we selfishly created to dominate.hmmmmm.what would we call it though?

 

Answer by can i join
Submitted on 5/6/2004
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yes i know the question was about jaw strength, and not who would win but thats what this has turned into.

 

Answer by Blackfoot
Submitted on 5/7/2004
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Firedragons, I ran a search on Alta Vista for hyenas and bite force---found ONE (1) pseudo-scientist saying hyena is #1 rank; a consensus of 1 isn't a consensus, rear end head!  Additionally, this source FAILED to study the other notable species!  You are a champ half wit.

 

Answer by Firedragons
Submitted on 5/7/2004
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As I mentioned before, Wolves kill dogs regularly ONE ONE ONE.  Dogs can't kill wolves, or there are NO REPORTED incidences.  I have the number to call in WI, AK, and MN.  It's easy to verify this and also get a laugh from the wilf life people when you tell them you think pit bulls are the killer in the fight!

Here is an article, and NOTE the dogs were killed one on one!!!

http://www.wolfology.com/id72.htm
Abstract
Compiling data from all complaints of wolf interactions with dogs within Minnesota's wolf range between 1979 and 1987, the authors conclude that interspecific aggression alone may not explain wolf attacks on dogs, and that in some cases wolves view dogs as prey. This study is deemed important as wolf depredation on pets can cause anti-wolf feeling in recovery areas.
Wolves (Canis lupus) are the progenitors of dogs (C. familiaris), and the 2 species interbreed. They also fight with one another, and wolves are known to eat dogs, but such interactions are mentioned only briefly in scientific literature. In the United States out of Alaska, the wolf exists only in Minnesota...and in parts of northern Wisconsin, Michigan, northwestern Montana, and possibly Idaho....Recovery plans for the eastern timber wolf, Northern Rocky Mountain wolf, and Mexican wolf identify other areas of the United States for potential reintroduction....

....A major issue in public acceptance of wolves is the potential for depredation on domestic animals. Current information on wolf interactions with domestic animals in North America is scarce, and information on the specific problem of depredations on dogs is especially rare. We report on the nature and extent of wolf-dog interactions in Minnesota, based on investigations of complaints received by personnel of the federal government dealing with wolf-depredation control. Our findings may indicate the wolf-dog interactions that can be expected in other recovery areas.

STUDY AREA AND METHODS

A general description of the 59,000-square km. wolf range in Minnesota is provided in Bailey (1978). With larger towns excluded, the area includes about 68,000 households whose dogs migh be exposed to wolves. Most of the wolf range is rural, including many small communities and single