Archive-name: misc-kids/outdoor-activities/part2
Posting-Frequency: monthly Last-Modified: February 13, 1995 See reader questions & answers on this topic! - Help others by sharing your knowledge Misc.kids Frequently Asked Questions Outdoor Activities for Young Children (up to about age 8) Part 2 (of 4) ===================================================================== Collection maintained by: Gloria Logan (glogan@atk.com) Last updated: February 13, 1995 ======================================================================= Copyright 1995, Gloria Logan. Use and copying of this information are permitted as long as (1) no fees or compensation are charged for use, copies or access to this information, and (2) this copyright notice is included intact. ======================================================================= To contribute to this collection, please send e-mail to the address given above, and ask me to add your comments to the FAQ file on Outdoor Activities for Young Children (if possible, specifiy the subcatagory of your comments -- for example, CANOEING, BACKPACKING TRIPS, INSECT REPELLANT, etc.) Please try to be as concise as possible, as these FAQ files tend to be quite long as it is. When you send your FAQ comments, please let me know whether or not you wish to have your name and/or email address included in the FAQ with your comments. If you have already contributed to this FAQ and wish to have your name and/or email address added to your contribution, please let me know. For a list of other FAQ files, look for the FAQ File Index posted to misc.kids weekly or check the misc.kids.info newsgroup. ======================================================================= This FAQ has been broken into four parts. Roughly, the FAQ is organized as follows. There is a lot of general information overlap, however, so you may want to scan all of the FAQ files. The sections on CANOEING and GENERAL CAMPING have the most widely-useful information. ------------------- Outdoor FAQ Part 1 (of 4) ------------------------- SKI PROGRAMS TAHOE AREA ALPINE MEADOWS BEAR VALLEY BOREAL HEAVENLY KIRKWOOD NORTHSTAR SIERRA SKI RANCH SODA SPRINGS SQUAW SUGAR BOWL OTHER CALIFORNIA SHASTA SKI PARK CANADA LAKE LOUISE BACKPACKING TRIPS YOSEMITE TAHOE AREA GENERAL CAMPING (part I) ------------------- Outdoor FAQ Part 2 (of 4) ------------------------- GENERAL CAMPING (part II) GRAND CANYON CANOEING (and good general info on outdoor living with kids) ------------------- Outdoor FAQ Part 3 (of 4) ------------------------- SNORKELING BIKING BEACH FARM TIPS ON GENERAL PLANING FOR KIDS TIPS ON SLEEPING ------------------- Outdoor FAQ Part 4 (of 4) ------------------------- TIPS ON CLOTHING TIPS ON FOOD INSECT REPELLANT BACKPACKS FOR CARRYING KIDS LIFEJACKETS BIKE TRAILERS (and related products) ======================================================================= Outdoor FAQ Part 2 (of 4): ======================================================================= GENERAL CAMPING (continued) We've done quite a bit of camping with our baby (now 2.5 yrs), but never did an overnight backpack with him. We just figured that unless we had a group of people, it would be too tough to carry all of our stuff with just two people (ie. if you have a group, you can distribute one person's things over the rest of the group while that person carries that baby). Anyway, that said, here's my advice: backpacks: We have a Tough Traveler Kid Carrier and IT'S GREAT! BUY ONE! (Do you want me to repeat that for your husband's sake? ;-) If your husband won't let you get one, make *him* carry the baby. The Tough Traveler really is worth every penny. We've used it on many day hikes. It's very stable with lots of straps so you don't have to worry about the kid falling out (even if you bend *way* over). It's very adjustable, has a nice waist band, and there's room to carry other things (ie diapers, etc.) My husband is a definite tight wad, but he didn't complain a bit when I brought the Tough Traveler home - he's done a lot of backpacking and recognizes the need for a good pack. sleeping bag: We got one of those REI infant Polarplus things that zips up to a snowsuit (legs separate) or a sleeping bag (legs together). It's nice and warm. We put Peter in it, in other clothes, then wrapped him up in blankets. He generally slept next to me (not in the middle of myself and my husband). dirt: Eating a little dirt won't hurt, but a blanket is nice to be able to spread around. Put old, sturdy, long pants on the baby so that when it crawls around its knees are protected. One thing to do is set up your tent as soon as you arrive at your destination, and put the baby in the tent. Instant playpen! We did this a lot with Peter when he was crawling since we didn't trust him not to eat the local foliage/dirt/etc. and because he hated being put in a playpen. ----- Can't help much on the sleeping bag problem.. In a warm climate I wouldn't think it would be a big problem though.. use the sleeping bag design you thought of, and it should work well. Buy the good backpack. It will be worth it. We did five days out with an eight month old in a good pack -- hip belt, extra bags, etc. I can't imagine what it would have been like in one without the belt. All the of supplies for the child that we might need quickly were kept in the backpack with the child. It made life a lot easier. And if you're doing eight-ten miles a day, I'm positive you won't regret it. (Besides, it's an investment that will hold over for your second child, if you plan a second.) >Dirt: Well, on the above trip, I wasn't the parent, but i do remember one evening being charged with keeping the child on the blanket we laid down and out of the dirt. (Just wait 'till next march, though..) I'd say bring along blanket just to keep the chilk a bit cleaner. Dirt itself probably isn't that bad, and I've never yet heard of a child that didn't at some point decide that dirt was the thing to eat, but most parents seem to have a small hangup about the ingestion of that particular substance. If nothing else, keeping the child clean helps keep your tent clean, which is always a plus for me. ----- ...One thing I forgot to say - when I shopped for the Tough Traveler they had three different models, separated in price by twenty or thirty dollars. We bought the mid-price one, since the top-of-the-line one didn't seem to have much more in the way of features. ----- If you're going to do any semi-serious or tougher hiking with a baby or toddler, I'd seriously recommend investing in one of the 'real' baby-carrier backpacks. I've used both the light trip-to-the-mall type, and a full-frame (ToughTraveler?) carrier, and there's just no comparison. Believe me, when you're half-sliding down the Iao Valley trail after a rainshower, with a 30 lb. kid on your back, you will thank yourself for preserving your balance and maybe saving everybody's life. That said, though, I'd also recommend that you get one of the light carriers, and drop by your local REI-equivalent and pick up a hipbelt and some attachment hardware. For day / beach / shopping use, the upgrade is a real pain-reliever. ----- Funny how sometime after 12 months children asleep resemble helicopters, rotating round the bed, waking one every so often with a knee here, a head butt there... I used blankets with Deborah on those trips in her 2nd-to-3rd year, not a sleeping bag. I don't describe what we used after she turned 3 and 1/2, because due to mom's allegations, we didn't even see each other, let alone camp... Now (age 9 last Wednesday) we use a rectangular fiberfill bag, fully zippered, which takes care of a reasonable range of temperatures, is still warm when wet (and pre-teens manage to wet things too with spilled cocoa, or a bag dropped in a puddle, or we ship water in the kayak). Really _cold_ nights ski camping a Pendelton blanket adds warmth and color. This year we'll do hut ski tour camping! >Dirt Don't know, I recollect watching my youngest brother eating a lot of it, I must have been about 7 or 8. Asside from his having sandy poohs, it dosen't seem to have hurt him. Unless you are luck enough to find really toxic camp sites, Will should have a life expentancy at least as good as the previous milliena of dirt-eating anthropod infants, and eventually wear button-down oxfords from Brooks Brothers. Make or get a washable, easily detached sleeping bag liner, and mix some sugar in the dirt, it will taste better and draw a better class of ants. ----- This is a major hint for now (not so much) and the future (when it becomes very true).... A dirty child is a happy child. (Repeat this over and over until you believe it. It makes looking at a disgustingly dirty child not quite so unpleasant.) Again, a dirty child is a happy child. That's why children like camping. They get to get dirty. They get to spill things without getting yelled at about ruining the carpet. They get to wear the same clothes for days on end. A heavy layer of dirt is good protection against bugs, sun burn and superficial scrapes. And it feels so good when you wash it off 3 days later. My son is 7 now. Some of the most joyous memories I have of him were when he was so filthy that only his parents could love him. Camping, gardening, playing in the rain, cooking together, etc. A dirty child is a happy child. ----- We took our daughter both car camping and backpacking since she was 2 months old. Backpacking she used to sleep in my husband's down coat; car camping in a sleeping bag type blanket. We always put her between us, but our friends, who we've camped with several times and who have bags that zip together, always sleep with the mom in the middle. The midquality Gerry carrier has always worked for us, even strapped onto the back of a backpack. My husband has talked about changing the belt; maybe with the next kid. Finally, I've never thought dirt was too good to ingest -- isn't there lead and other bad things in it? On the other hand, our friends, who are both chemist types, don't seem to be bothered about it. We always bring an old shower curtain to put on the ground; it's not exactly light for backpacking, but it is easy to clean. Have fun! Kids love to camp! ----- Well, on the sleeping bag front, one possibility is to look at Sears or K Mart for the items I love, but don't know the name for -- it is essentially a fiberfill comforter with snaps (or sometimes a zipper) that can be used to turn it into a "sack" that you wear. Hmm, I'm not doing very well explaining this, am I! Imagine you are standing up, and have a blanket draped around your shoulders. Now imagine that there are snaps down the front that pulls the part over your shoulders in to big, loose "sleeves", and your feet stick out the bottom. One of mine was called a "Snug Sack", but I don't know if they still go by that name. I wore my first one nearly into rags, and got another from my Mom for last Christmas. Every one I've ever seen is completely washable, they run about $25 last I saw (but can be found cheaper), and would do very nicely not only for a baby sleeping bag, but also for a spread out "play mat", and at home, for a snuggly comforter for cold nights. Both my kids used mine a *lot*, though never for a sleeping bag outside (my son used it as one inside more than once though.) Just another idea. As for spit up, you are probably just going to have to live with it, making sure it has had time to dry by opening up whatever it is the baby winds up sleeping in. The good news is that the problem may have faded.. my son was another "eat everything, and then some, and spit up the extra" child (took us awhile to figure out!), and it faded slowly between 6 and 8 months. I can tell by looking at the baby clothes -- I never could get all the yellowish spit-up stains off the clothes, so when I get to the sizes when he'd stopped, there are no more stains! (By the way, this habit means you can probably throw out nearly all the advice you get on feeding your child solids, as he may continue the same pattern -- mine did. We read all this "...your child will turn his/her head, look away, make faces, push your hand away, or otherwise clearly signal you when he/she has had enough", and couldn't find the slightest trace of it. We finally worked out a system of how much food to start with, and when giving more was acceptable (basically, after the initial meal was finished, we ignored protests, and got him away from the table. If the protests continued more than a few minutes, they were probably real, and we returned to the kitchen. It was a pain in the neck, but better than both the spitting up, and than the unbelievable weight gains that were beginning to occur. We did all this under the advice and supervision of our pediatrician, but I just thought I'd mention it...) As for dirt, don't bother trying to get your child to crawl on a blanket; it won't work. When sitting and playing, you may be able to get him to stay mostly on a blanket, and might as well try. Eating dirt generally isn't harmful, unless it contains things it shouldn't (like lead, PCBs, or other harmful chemicals/etc). Some kids love it, most sample, and then go on. My daughter was an eater of bark, but neither of my kids really went for dirt in a big way. ----- Get the expensive one with the sophisticated alpine backpack harness (and the raincover/shade, too, if it's a late model -- the early type covers are junk). Not the cheaper one. >"What's wrong with that old Gerry backpack our friends picked up at >the garage sale for $5?" "It's not a real backpack. It sure isn't! >"But we don't really need something with all those bells and whistles, Yes you do. And remember you're gonna sell it when you're done with it. The only thing I don't like about ours is it doesn't have a pocket for the baby bottle, and it's short of cargo space generally for real hiking/backpacking. I've always had to enlist my former climbing buddies as Sherpas for overnight trips. Also, we modified the child restraint straps to make it easier to get the child in & out: fast-sliding ladder buckles, and we replaced the snap-lock plastic buckle on the child's waist belt with a day-glo red one (to make it easier to see when you're fumbling for it). We've had lots of fun with ours. ----- We took our ~1 yo on a camping trip once. Instead of a sleeping bag we just brought the porta-crib - we had a large enough tent :-) The big problem we had, though, was that she was used to waking up at 4am to cry. At home, we've learned to let her cry herself back to sleep after we determine it's not something urgent. But when the next camper is just 20 ft away, you can't very well let her go on like that. I'd suggest that you find a nice empty corner somewhere :-) ----- In response to backpacking with GERRY pack: My wife and I used ours avidly and overall found it as good as the expensive Kelty pack we borrowed from a friend. MY wife is hadny with a drill and she just bought a hip belt from the local camping store and drilled holes into the Gerry - very comfortable. The shoulder straps were a little unpadded but that is easily fixed. The Kelty($119) pack was heavy on top of everything else. We did 5 - 6 mile trips in the steep mountains of North CArolina where we live without any probelms from the Gerry - also a $5 garage find. good luck - try them both out might be best solution for you. ps We cut up an older north face bag for our girls sleeping bag and then resewed it and used polarfleece to add some warmth. ----- I got all sorts of wonderful information in response to my posting a couple of weeks ago, asking (1) whether I really needed a Tough Traveler backpack instead of a Gerry, (2) what to use for a sleeping bag, and (3) what to do about dirt. Very brief summary: (1) Almost everyone says that the Tough Traveler is so much better than a Gerry that you shouldn't even bother with the latter, although a couple of families had success with adding a hipbelt from a real backpack to the Gerry pack. (2) For a sleeping bag, you can substitute a couple of blanket sleepers, use an adult's parka, or buy polarfleece from the Rain Shed and make stuff. (3) As far as dirt goes, remember what Connie says: "A dirty child is a happy child. (Repeat this over and over...)" Oh boy oh boy oh boy, my husband says the TT Kid Carrier just arrived from REI this morning, and I got my fabric swatches plus a beautiful 3' x 5' piece of Polartech fleece in the mail yesterday from the Rain Shed. There are scads of great patterns in the Rain Shed's catalog (503-753-8900), for baby stuff, sports clothing, sleeping bags, luggage, etc.--and all of the specialized materials needed to make any of this. I just wish I had more time to do anything. The stretch Polartech 200s looks like the ideal material for winter baby clothes. (I'm not going to use a pattern, because I think it's more fun without it.) ----- Just a note to let you know we are back from our camping trip. We all had a wonderful time. I took her playpen. It worked great. I used a generic brand of Coppertone Water Babies for suntan lotion. It also worked great. The only one's who got burned were Daddy and Mommy who did not use the lotion. :-( We did not use any mosquito repellent, even thou our doctor told us any kind would be okay as long as it was not prolonged use. If it had gotten really bad we would have used some Off lotion. We could not find any store that carried Skeedaddle. We brought lots of toys for the car, and stopped every hour or two and let Isabel crawl around. She had a particularly fun time chasing and squashing ants. She got cold in her own bed, so we let her sleep with us. She got a good night's sleep, although we did not. I am going to make her a down comforter for next time. ----- [She has a son: Cameron is 18 mos and *VERY* active, you name it he'll try it. She was putting together a list of what to take camping. Here is her results:] Generally already known: >life vest >sun screen >hat >glasses >syrup of ipecac (sp) >first aid kit >ice packs >toys >what for bugs..??? >etc Some things that people added were: -benadryl ointment as anti-itch for bug-bites -tylenol or equivalent -A&D ointment or Desitin -paper towels -extra diapers -extra clothes -Dr. Spock or whatever your favorite children's health book is -canteen -10% citronella, or Skedaddle brand DEET, not the usual bug repellent -HAT -very warm pajamas -hooded jacket -city water -cheerios -crackers -rice cakes -drink boxes -cheese -life vest -long sleeved t's for sunblocker -back pack carrier -harness and tether Some others that came to my mind - -small pool -water hose -mittens -thongs for showers -tarp - to keep child off dirt or to put pool on if no grass.. ----- We recently spent 3 days and nights camping in Yosemite (Tuolomne Meadows, to be precise). We went with my brother-in-law, Brian, who is a very experienced camper and rock climber who acted as our guide as well as supplier of tents, sleeping bags, etc. Our first night out was awful, as we couldn't set up a tent for fear of being caught camping illegally (off the road). So, I spent the entire night warding off mosquitoes, wood ants and comforting Dylan, who woke up every half hour to hour crying "I want to go home!" The next two nights were much better, since we had a nice campsite right next to Lake Tioga, and the tent protected us from the bugs. We were only in camp to eat dinner, sleep and have breakfast. Otherwise, we had our daypacks and spent the days hiking. We had brought our backpack carrier, the Tough Traveler (TT) for those inevitable times when Dylan wouldn't feel like walking any further. Little did we know how often those times would occur! And, we had several stalemates when Dylan neither wanted to walk nor to be put in the TT. Instead, he whined to be carried chest-to-chest, which was too much of a strain on our backs and shoulders as well as too dangerous for the trails we hiked. Since we don't ever give in to whining, we spent quite a bit of time sitting or standing around waiting for Dylan to pull himself together and choose one of the two acceptable options. Oh, and as Gary has a bad back, I was the designated Dylan-mule. Aside from the battles over method of conveyance, however, we had a wonderful time exploring nature. Dylan got into the spirit of picking wildflowers and having his uncle identify them. And, he loved the treks to rivers and streams, where he got to indulge his love of throwing rocks and splashing. Dylan really liked going three days without a bath, though the same could not be said for his mother :-0. I even swam in chilly Lake Tenaya just for the chance to get the top layer of dirt and sweat off! All in all, I'm glad we went. However, I learned that camping with *my* kid would have been easier when he was an infant, and thus light enough to carry all day long without strain. Also, as an infant, Dylan didn't have as many strongly held opinions about what to do with his time and energy as he has now :-0. Gary and I have decided that we will wait at least a couple of years before trying camping with Dylan again--with any luck, he'll be able to hike competently on his own by then. ----- We are going camping in the Gils Wilderness this weekend with our 8mo old. The car will be next to our camp site. We have a good sized tent (6X8). A Queen sized air mattress which we will all sleep on. (with her in the middle). Do we need to bring her playpen? What kind of insect repellent is safe for an infant? What type of suntan lotion? What type of first aid kit should we bring? Any suggestions as to how to keep a 8mo happy for a 6 hour drive? ----- we've done quite a bit of car camping with alex, starting when she was about 5 months old. i think having the playpen/portable crib thing is great for that age. we set it up outside and she loved it (only time she didn't bum out about being confined), checking out all the animals and trees while we set up camp. we also brought an umbrella stroller for walks and for sitting in around the campfire with us. >What kind of insect repellent is safe for an infant? we used avon skin-so-soft but i am not totally sure about the safety of any of these products. you should probably ask your pediatrician. >What type of suntan lotion? we really like waterbabies spf 30. >Any suggestions as to how to keep a 8mo happy for a 6 hour drive? this is probably an impossible task. i'd say you'd have better luck keeping her happy for 2 3-hour drives. and at least one of those should start right at nap time. we always plan our trips around nap times and it seems to help. then maybe she'll sleep the first 3 hours, then you stop for lunch and playtime for an hour or so, then you cross your fingers for the second three hours. ----- I can only add what I have experienced, having camped with a very agreeable baby (Megan) from the time she was 4 months old...... >Do we need to bring her playpen? Yes, unless you don't mind her crawling in the dirt >What kind of insect repellent is safe for an infant? Dunno, didn't use it >What type of suntan lotion? We used Coppertone for Kids >What type of first aid kit should we bring? Whatever you think you'd need around the house (Tylenol, bandaids, vitamins...) plus perhaps some insect-bite repelant >Any suggestions as to how to keep a 8mo happy for a 6 hour drive? Frequent stops :-) No. I'm serious - Frequent stops!!! We also used to let the kids eat plain cheerios on long rides. Also, keep plenty of drinks readily available. ----- We took our 9 month old car camping without a playpen and it was fine. She never spent much time in a playpen at home, and when you're camping there's not much to do except hang out with each other, so we couldn't really see the purpose of a playpen. We held her or carried her most of the time, either in a sling when we were hanging around camp, or in the backpack when we were walking or hiking. Sometimes we put her down for a supervised crawl around in the dirt and grass, which she enjoyed, or we hung out together on a pad or sleeping bag, either inside or out of the tent. We did bring a seat that hooks on the edge of the table and that was handy for feeding and for those occasional times when we really wanted her stuck in one place while we were both busy. >What kind of insect repellent is safe for an infant? What type of >suntan lotion? What type of first aid kit should we bring? Dunno about the first two. But don't forget the baby Benadryl in your first aid kit. You never know when you're going to discover a new allergy or see a bad reaction to a bug bite or plants. >Any suggestions as to how to keep a 8mo happy for a 6 hour drive? Then and now, I pack a bag of special car toys and fill it with both a few favorite things and things that are new or at least haven't been seen in a couple of months. A consistent hit are small plastic containers with lids and interesting things inside of them (corn puffs, little toy people) that can be taken out and put into other containers. I dole the toys out at intervals, usually interspersed with songs and stories. I break up this routine with interesting snacks and drinks and get-out-and-run/crawl-around breaks. ----- |> Do we need to bring her playpen? We took ours camping for Brendan to sleep in but then we have a cabin tent with lots of room. I think it would be a good idea if you don't want her crawling around in the dirt a lot. And also if you want to leave her in the tent alone for naptime and don't want to worry about her rolling off the mattress or crawling away. :) |> What kind of insect repellent is safe for an infant? Ah, that's another thread. :) The net.wisdom is that DEET is the only effective thing but too toxic for small kids. Citronella based products are OK and worked for us. Other suggestions are Avon's Skin-So-Soft and Skedaddle (sp?). Bottom line is ask your pediatrician. |> What type of suntan lotion? We use Water Babies spf30 but just picked up Johnson's & Johnson's No More Tears spf15 (it says it won't sting their eyes if they happen to have some on their hands and rub their face). |> What type of first aid kit should we bring? Whatever you have at home - Children's Tylenol, syrup of ipecac, etc. There are also new products for children called No More Ouchies, No More Itchies, and No More Germies that you might consider. I think these are Johnson & Johnson also. The No More Germies come either as a germicidal liquid soap or as handy-wipes (good for traveling). |> Any suggestions as to how to keep a 8mo happy for a 6 hour drive? You may want to consider driving at night when she's normally asleep if she sleeps in her carseat. We have a 10 hour drive to our favorite summer camping spot and have done this. Last year, we left at Brendan's bedtime (8 pm) and he slept the whole way. The only time he woke up was when we stopped for gas and the bright lights bothered him. We took turns driving so we each got some sleep (that's Daddy and me, not Brendan and me :-) ) then we took a nap the next day when Brendan did. We were tired but preferred that to frazzled after trying to deal with an awake infant that long in the car. It worked for us. ----- :My son will be ten this summer and wants to see Yellowstone. I'd like :to take him there but I don't care to drive the whole way myself from :the Chicago area. Does anyone know if it is possible to "do :Yellowstone" without driving there? I realize this may sound silly :but the only times I've been there we camped, and this was back in the :'60s and '70s and I detested it. : :I DID like the hikes and the hot springs and all the other wonders :of nature (but a bed indoors, please) and I know Chris would too. I'm :wondering if there isn't some kind of arrangement in Cheyenne where :you fly and rent a car and stay in a lodge or some other plan they've :devised for us sort-of-back-to-nature buffs? :-) I'll check with a :travel agent but if someone's been there and done the Yellowstone :curcuit without camping out, I'd appreciate reading your experiences :(and advice!!!) We did something similar to what you're suggesting last spring, even though we drove to yellowstone from home (Denver). We went before memorial day in May, and I'd recommend this if you can make it work. Yellowstone is full of HUGE parking lots that fill up with tour buses during the summer, and they were all nearly empty when we were there. No lines anywhere, and we saw LOTS of wildlife. Christopher (3 yo at the time) didn't stop talking about the herds of buffalo & elk we saw on the road (I mean LITERALLY - we had to drive around them & wait for them to move) for a couple of weeks afterward. We stayed one night in West Yellowstone (little tourist trap of a town, but the motel was nice) and one night in Jackson (another tourist town where stuff seemed really expensive). West Yellowstone is on the northwest border of the park and is fairly convenient to Mammoth and Old Faithful; Jackson is about an hour south of the southern entrance. Also, Jackson is right next to Teton Nat'l Park, which is worth a visit in itself. Something that struck us while we were there is the sheer size of the park. We spent 2 days in the park, and felt like we had just scratched the surface. Make sure you schedule plenty of time there, especially if you go in the summer (we heard lots of horror stories about traffic jams). I'd suggest flying into Jackson & renting a car there, and spending one night at the Old Faithful or Mammoth lodge (if you can afford them & reserve ahead of time) or in West Yellowstone, and then driving back to Jackson & spending the rest of your trip there. ----- First, many thanks to all who responded to my request for tips as I took my 5-year-old daughter Anna on her first camping trip last week. Much of the advice, as I had hoped, fell into the category of just getting psychologically ready, as in: remember this trip will happen for her, not for me, and I must remain totally sensitive to her needs, wishes, feelings, etc. That I did, to a degree that surprised me. I have usually hiked and camped solo, and have never had to watch out for others or sublimate my desires to another's on a trip like this (my wife hates hiking, doesn't like camping much either). Anyway, all seems to have gone quite well. We had a long drive, which she slept through for the most part, thanks to the Dramamine (she tends to throw up on mountain roads). We didn't do much but put up the tent and make dinner the first night, as rain drizzled down and darkness fell. It rained off and on through the night, but Anna slept just fine and loved the concept and the reality of the sleeping bag. The next day dawned bright and after breakfast I gave Anna her choice of canoeing, hiking, or just hanging out in camp. She chose canoeing, so we drove to the lake, put in the canoe and paddled around until she announced she no longer wanted to canoe (about 45 minutes). We returned to shore, and while I put the canoe back on the truck she found some cased caddis larvae at the water's edge, giving me a chance to tell her about the life cycle of aquatic insects. Next she wanted to go hiking, so we found an abandoned forest road, nearly level and walked about a quarter mile. She took many pictures with the disposable camera we had bought her (great idea!), but began to lose interest when we hadn't seen a deer after about 30 minutes. We walked back to the car, and I grew astonished at the things she chose to photograph: trees and clouds, flowers, chipmunk holes. Back at the car, she looked up the steep, trackless slope next to where we had parked and announced she wanted to go up there. I tried to talk her out of it, but next thing I knew we were scrambling hand-in-hand through the rocks and trees to a rocky outcropping maybe 125 feet above us. She grunted and whimpered a little, but she remembered she had suggested it -- insisted on it -- and she never complained or changed her mind. We sat on the outcropping until she decided to get down. By now lunch time had arrived, so we went back to camp and ate, and the rain came and came hard right after lunch, so we retired to the tent and spent the afternoon playing Candyland (for the record she beat me four times, and she denied she had cheated), reading and playing with Barbies. She didn't feel a nap coming on until just before the skies cleared, so I watched the best part of the day slip off while listening to her gentle snoring. Dinner, more Candyland, wonderful conversation (she finally asked where babies come from, what a great place to have the first facts of life conversation!) and a good night's sleep followed. In the morning I told her we would have time to do one activity before starting the long drive home and she chose to "climb the mountain" again. We ascended with even more enthusiasm than the previous day, wandered around for a while looking at things through a magnifying glass, and collected the first few drops of rain that fell because she wanted to know how it would taste (she didn't like it). Then came her only tears of the weekend as she forced down the dramamine (next time I'll get the liquid kind if I can find it), and she slept most of the way back. She expressed just one regret to me: we never did see a deer, though she delighted in chipmunks, squirrels and woodpeckers. She seemed to have a wonderful time and said she wants to go again, but one thing worries me. Since we got back, she has hardly spoken two words about the trip to anyone else. I had thought she would come back gushing to Mom and brother Chas and Aunt Jessica about what she had done, but she has said hardly a word and only when prompted. Maybe when we get her pictures back on Thursday she'll open up about it. Anyway, I think we succeeded in making it a positive experience for her, and I think I can talk her into going again with no trouble. I again want to thank all who sent me net-tips, and I apologize that I didn't have time to thank each of you individually. Everyone helped a lot. ----- GRAND CANYON: I finally asked for a trip from from Bruce (who'd sent it but it never got here). So here are all the messages I received re. Vacationing in and around Grand Canyon and Durango with 7 year old. Here is the original message: >We recently decided to try to go to Grand Canyon late August. Our >current thoughts are to visit the North Rim for 3 days, (in an attempt >to avoid crowds at the South Rim), then drive to Durango via Page and >Kayenta Arizona, Bluff, Utah and Cortez and Durango, Colorado, staying >a few days in perhaps each spot (except Cortez). We plan on a >smoothwater trip on the Colorado River at Page, and will visit Mesa >Verde while staying in Durango. > >We did some hiking last fall, 1500' change in elevation, 6 mile round >trips, and would like to do some there. Our son is 4'3" tall which >means he's too short for any mule rides in GC? (I believe I read >this in some guide.) > >Has anyone been to any of these places? We've never even been in any >of these states. What are the must-see and must avoid spots? Is the >driving hazardous (hairpin turns in the mountains)? Do storms >suddenly start? Are there dredded insects/snakes this time of year? >I don't even know exactly what questions I should be asking... ----- I grew up in New Mexico - and all of the states you are planning on visiting are GORGEOUS! One must stop place is 4 corners - I think you will drive right by there on your way to Mesa Verde. Basically it is just a cement slab with a cross painted on. Your 7 year old will LOVE having his picture taken while he has 1 appendage in each of the 4 states. The north rim is certainly less crowded than the south - but it is really hard to get reservations at the campground & hotels around there - you should try to get reservations now. You can't see the river from the north rim - and it isn't as pretty as the south rim - but it is still amazingly beautiful. Riding the narrow gauge train from durango to silverton is also a lot of fun - but I think it is pretty expensive. If you do the train I think you need to get your reservations in now also. It is the big tourist attraction in durango. My sister currently lives in durango - earning a living off of the tourist $$ - so leave a big tip for your waitress if her name is Diana :-) >Is the driving hazardous (hairpin turns in the mountains)? Since I grew up driving in the mountains I don't think they are bad - so I don't think I'm the person to answer this. >Do storms suddenly start? In august expect it to rain in the afternoons - if it rains at all. >Are there dredded insects/snakes this time of year? It is nice a dry - so no mosquitos! If I were you I wouldn't worry about snakes. ----- >We recently decided to try to go to Grand Canyon late August. I suggest a rescheduling! Grand Canyon in *August*? We visited it in early June and already it was far too hot down there. Of course if you stay on top it probably won't matter, but if you are thinking of going down, beware! Bring lots of water and hats, etc. >thoughts are to visit the North Rim for 3 days, (in an attempt to >avoid crowds at the South Rim), then drive to Durango via Page and >Kayenta Arizona, Bluff, Utah and Cortez and Durango, Colorado, >staying a few days in perhaps each spot (except Cortez). We plan on >a smoothwater trip on the Colorado River at Page, and will visit >Mesa Verde while staying in Durango. I have not been in these other places (I highly recommend the Grand Canyon but not in the summer...). I did visit Brice Canyon and Zion Canyon (can't remember if it was Utah or Arizona though...) and I recommend both as well (about a day travel from Grand Canyon). >Has anyone been to any of these places? We've never even been in any >of these states. What are the must-see and must avoid spots? Is the >driving hazardous (hairpin turns in the mountains)? Do storms >suddenly start? Are there dredded insects/snakes this time of year? >I don't even know exactly what questions I should be asking... A tourbook is probably a better asset than me, but I don't think you need to worry too much. There may be sudden storms at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, but I would not worry too much about them. ----- I spent two weeks last summer in New Mexico and Southern Colorado. We spent 2 days in Durango and 3 in Mesa Verde. First, while in Durango do take the Durango to Silverton steam train. It's great fun and Silverton has been kept up as a real western town with cowboys riding in and out etc. A 7 year-old should love both the town and the steam train ride up. Buy tickets in advance and I suggest the train ride up and bus back. Mesa Verde deserves a few days. There are several short hikes through Anasazi ruins. There's a little climbing involved in a few places but nothing a 7 year-old couldn't handle. Some of it is ladders. Usually they handle the change in elevation better than the adults. None of us had any trouble at all. It might be better to stay closer to the Park than Durango. It is mountain dessert so it was dry and hot. Storms come in quick and generally are short in duration. Often you get to watch one in the distance while being in the sun yourself. I thought it was exciting to see lighting touch down. We had rain ponchos with hoods that fold up real small and always carried them in a pack. We also carried water bottles. ----- How much information do you want? I used to work as an archaeologist in the area for about 8 years :-) The North Rim is fine, BUT I feel it is more spectacular from the South Rim (and traditional) and the crowds aren't that bad (not anywhere near what you'll find at Mesa Verde). Three days for the Grand Canyon are a little long when there is other stuff to see. Other National Monuments in the area are Sunset Crater, a real, live recent volcano that is climable by a 7 year old. Volcanos are always a hit in that age bracket, and what my kids describe as a bunch of real boring archaeological site/National Monuments. Of course, the four corners monument for the obligatory picture to take back to school showing the child in 4 states at once. Monument Valley in Utah is close, and VERY, VERY neat for kids and adults. In Durango take the narrow gauge train between Silverton and Durango - takes a whole day but very much worth it. In New Mexico about an hour South of Durango try Aztec Ruin NM and Salmon Ruins County Park (where I worked for those 8 years). Spectacular and almost as good as a visit to Chaco Canyon - you should be able to catch a jeep tour to Chaco from the Aztec-Farmington area and that is the most incredible experience for adult and child that I can think of and it is far, far, far less crowded than Mesa Verde. Also jeep tours to the Bisti Badlands - dinosaur bones eroding out of the badlands, along with petrified trees. Also in Arizona, Painted Desert NM and Petrified Forest NM. My kids rate the attractions in this order: Grand Canyon - either rim Silverton to Durango Train Sunset Crater Chaco Canyon Monument Valley Four Corners Aztec/Salmon Petrified Forest/Bisti Badlands Mesa Verde other boring archaeological sites and museums We have never done the rafting. ----- Sounds like a wonderful vacation - I'm planning my own, I may want to look up your route, I've wanted to get back to GC ever since I worked there in the summer of '78. The North Rim IS less crowded, no question. Just offhand, however, if my memory serves me correctly there would be less of an opportunity for a 7YO-compatible day hike from there. On the South Rim, there's short hikes possible along the Rim, at Hermit's Rest, and of course, from GC village down to Indian Gardens. (IE, from the rim down to the plateau but not all the way down to the river.) Obviously, the trails are big and well traveled, but they're enough to make even an in-shape college student (me at the time) a little winded. Bear in mind also the 'inverted' nature of a Canyon hike: down FIRST (which makes odd muscles ache), the hard climb back up LAST. When you're halfway down the canyon that rim looks a long, long way up, and if you or your child gets tired, you've got a problem. It's better than 5000 vertical feet to the river; not a hike for a youngster. Another pitfall of hiking in the sunny SouthWest: heavy-duty sunburn. I saw a LOT of tourist blithely hiking in tank-tops, shorts, sandals. Bad idea: you need light, cool clothes BUT they should be long pants and long-sleeved shirts - you'll feel cooler, believe it or not. And real walking shoes, like tenny runners or similar, NOT sandals. I usually hiked in blue jeans and a blue chambray work shirt, which I frequently doused with water. If this sounds like craziness, recall that this is how desert people dress too - covering up. We're talking about second-degree sunburn possible, so hats/sunglasses too. (I'm more assiduous about the hat now that I'm going bald!) Those same tourists I mentioned often ended up in the GC infirmary. . . use that sunscreen!!! The cave dwellings at Mesa Verde and elsewhere - your kid will love 'em, I saw them when I was young and thought they were cool beyond words. Lots of scrambling to get down to see them, which 7-year-olds seem to love anyway. ----- As for things to see in the vicinity: The meteor crater near Winslow, Arizona is great--my kids saw it a few months ago and the older two really enjoyed it. Oh, and I've also heard that there is a real steam train that runs to and from the GC from...where was it?...not Flagstaff but I believe the next city west. ----- It so happens that my family and I are traveling most of that route on our way to Las Vegas June 6. I will keep my eyes open for things of interest and write to you when we get back. Now last year, I finally got to see Mesa Verde park and it was wonderful and very intriging. I definitely suggest you don't miss this experience. We use AAA to get us routes for the trip and they have been very usefull and informative. ----- >We recently decided to try to go to Grand Canyon in late August. Our >current thoughts are to visit the North Rim for 3 days, (in an attempt >to avoid crowds at the South Rim), then drive to Durango via It's definitely worth staying away from the crowds, but as I recall, the two sides are really quite surprisingly different. If it's on the way, it might be worth a 1 day stop on the South Rim. >a smoothwater trip on the Colorado River at Page, and will visit >Mesa Verde while staying in Durango. Mesa Verde is very interesting but might be a little dull for a 7 year old. Still, one day can't hurt. Mom and Dad have to have their fun too :-). >What are the must-see and must avoid spots in this area? It's been 7 yrs since I went out there with my family, so the memory is a little rusty on the geography. Without a map here, I can't be sure how convenient it will be to the locations you mention, but either way, Bryce Canyon is worth going pretty far out of your way. We went on a three week trip (driving from MD) including Rocky Mt Natl. Park, Grand, Bryce and Zion Canyons, Mesa Verde, Dinosaur Natl Monument and the Petrified Forest to name a few. Of all those, I would rate Bryce as the single most "must see" followed closely by Grand Canyon (I know my father would agree and the rest of the family probably wouldn't argue too much). Grand is awe inspiring by virtue of its size and can be very pretty too, but Bryce is orders of magnitude more beatiful. And totally unique. You can hardly go wrong in this area. I can't recall anywhere we went that I wouldn't go back to again. You're going to have a great vacation. >hazardous (hairpin turns in the mountains)? Do storms suddenly start? >Are there dredded insects/snakes this time of year? Anything to be >warned of? I can't say much for the driving. I had just turned 16, so Mom and Dad did most of the driving, but as I recall, the roads in the Rocky's were steep and twisting, but nothing that struck you as dangerous. Don't count on averaging 55 mph, but it's not like the Alpine roads you see in BMW commercials. It's going to be hot, but that's hard to avoid in that area. Still, it bears repeating. It's going to be hot. Really, really hot. Good luck. ----- First, although I have not hiked in the Grand Canyon, I know a little about the trails. If you hike in on the North Kaibab Trail from North Rim, your son is probably okay. But all those trails are steep and narrow, and you should be very careful. And there is no water, of course. Late August could be quite hot and even humid, even at the north rim elevation. Down in the canyon it will be even worse. Get all the info you can from rangers and the Park Service in advance. From North Rim to Durango is godforsaken, desolate, barren, dry, rocky and absolutely beautiful country. Most of it crosses the Navajo Reservation, then Southern Ute in Colorado. The people are scarce and very poor. They are concentrated in Kayenta, which as you probably know is the closest civilization to Monument Valley. I don't know Bluff, Utah. I have driven across the Northern Arizona side to Four Corners. I suspect the drive is about the same in terms of conditions. There's not much to Cortez, Colorado. Durango is beautiful, but pricey. Most of the roads are pretty good. There are some mountain turns on the road to the North Rim and in Southwest Colorado, but nothing too hairy. The roads on the reservation appear to have simply been smeared down across the terrain with little preparation of the roadbed, but they're passable. The hard thing is watc hing the road when you want to watch all the rocks around you. There are always insects and snakes in the desert, less so in the high country. Mostly they operate around dusk and on to about midnight, but you never know. Storms usually develop for a while and you can see them coming. They can be quite violent, but not totally surprising. What you need to be careful of in regard to storms is if you're hiking in canyons or washes. Storms far away can send huge walls of water down dry washes and canyons, so always beware. If you hear thunder, stay out of gullies and narrow canyons. ----- Mesa Verde is the most overcrowded National Park in the West. Friends who are rangers dread being assigned there because of the crowds. On the other hand it is spectacular. Aztec and Salmon are both not as nice or spectacular but are rather unlikely to be crowded. They are part of a much neater regional phenomena, the Chacoan empire, but without a trip to Chaco Canyon, they are probably not as worth it. Entering Chaco Canyon is the single most breathtaking and awe- nspriring moment in my life (other than the giving birth of course :-)) and I have been all over the ruins in Mexico and Central America. I asked my kids after I wrote to you before about Chaco and Mesa Verde and they though MV was better because a) the trip into the ruins was shorter, b) closer proximity to junk food and c) other kids knew what they were talking about when they said they had been to Mesa Verde, which didn't happen with Chaco. If there is a music festival in Telluride while you are in the area, you might want to check it out. I would definitely try to drive through Holbrook, Arizona during the day on either your way into or out of the Grand Canyon. There are several rock shops that sell pieces of dinosaur bone, fossil sharks teeth and maybe even an occasional dinorsaur tooth, as well as geodes. All of which are very nice status symbols among the elementary school set. I'm not sure what the dinosaur bone and teeth really are, but they are fossils and they do look the part. Sharks teeth are always a hit. ----- >Thanks for the info again. You're right, my son would LOVE a >dinosaur bone and another fossil (we went to a workshop at a NY State >museum and he got a (copy) of the NYS fossil whose name escapes me at >the moment -- tiny scallop shell). I'm hoping my son won't rate our >vacation spots by the nifty video games available... > >We plan to take a smoothwater 20 person raft ride from Wahweap AZ into >some canyon. (I know, I gotta get my canyons straight...) Would that >be similar to entering Chaco Canyon by jeep (except for the water)? Probably not. Part of Chaco is setting, part is the amazing size and grace of the ruins, part is the incredible sense of spirituality. To get to Chaco you ride along a pretty boring plateau for a LONG time, then, suddenly, the road drops into a canyon. The light is always golden in Chaco. The canyon is large - the wash that runs through it is dry most of the year. The ruins have a tremendous sense of ancientness and grace. It is very hard to explain, but very special nevertheless. Wahweap is nice and should be worth the trip, bit I would be hard pressed to find an equivalent to the Chaco experience in North or Central America, and friends who have been to Machu Pichu in Peru say they are hard pressed to decide which is better. Have fun on your trip. If you can, you might want to check out a book of Georgia O'Keefe paintings before you go to get a sense of the New Mexico sky and New Mexico colors. ----- Well I am back from my vacation and we stopped in three places in the southwest. The first stop was the National Arches, it was a nice park, and my kids seemed to enjoy it. The next stop was the National Bridges, my kids seemed to enjoy that more than the Arches (I don't know why). After that we went to the Monument Valley they rated it between the other two (I thought it was just as good as the other two). A lot of the western movies were filmed in Monument Valley. Outside of Monument Valley we traveled into a town called Mexican Hat. Just outside of town was the most terrifying road I have ever driven. It was a 10% grade, single lane, dirt road nad ther were gravel trucks coming up the hill at us and they won't stop for anything. Not what I call fun with nine members of my family in the vehicle. The last stop was the Grand Canyon. My children enjoyed it the most. There is a lot for young children to enjoy at the visiters center. I have visited the following places in the Southwest during my lifetime and this is how I rate them in order of enjoyment level: Mesa Verde - I thoroughly enjoyed this Bryce Canyon - a tour guide took us when I was about 10 I found it very interesting. Grand Canyon - either rim is good Painted Desert - beautiful to look at Monument Valley - Very pretty landsacpe Petrified Forest - its was interesting Other archaeological sites and museums - enjoyable, sometimes interesting Silverton to - its ok Durango Train Four Corners - boring PS. My children's ages are 7 1/2 and two 3 1/2 yr olds. ======================================================================= End of "Outdoor Activities for Young Children" FAQ Part 2 (of 4) User Contributions: |
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