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Archive-name: cultures/macedonia/faq
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******************** Macedonian FAQ (Hellenic) *************************
This is a FAQ about the Greek main positions, but also covers issues
that have arisen during our discussion in the group, so that visitors
and newcomers to the group can follow the discussions easier. I hope it
will be a useful primer.
In 1994, Greece imposed an embargo on products from FYROM (except for
food, medicine and humanitarian assistance), on claims that the adoption
of a Greek name ("Macedonia") for the country, a Greek symbol (the
Vergina Sun/Star) for its flag and certain articles in its constitution,
hide irredentist designs against Greece. For the embargo to end, the
flag, certain articles in its constitution, and the hostile propaganda
have to be changed ("small package"), while the name can be decided in
later negotiations.
The Embargo has recently been lifted but the reasoning behind it is
still relevant, and even more pressing since the assasination attempt
against FYROM's president.
But the foremost reason for this FAQ's existences is to reply to
irredentist aspirations, against Greece and its people, like the
following:
"Actually, WE FORESEE a unification of all the parts of
Macedonia the Pirin, the Aegean, the Vardar (presently the
INDEPENDENT Republic), and Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo. That will be
achieved in a peaceful manner, for NOONE CAN DENY THE RESOLVE
OF THE MACEDONIANS TO LIVE IN A MACEDONIAN STATE FREE OF
FOREIGN RULE. Macedonia was divided among its neighbors in
1913; it's time it got reunified."
(Boris Docevski, Brainwashed Internet Propagandist,
posted in soc.culture.greek on April 21, 1995)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONTENTS
1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM flag?
3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?
4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient Macedons?
5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian" minority?
10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
13) Appendix of FYROMian intransingence
1) Why does Greece dictate to FYROM its name, symbols and constitution?
Greece does not dictate to FYROM what name or flag to adopt, just
to choose any of the million possibilities that are not Greek or
offensive to Greeks. Countries have to choose their national symbols
based on International norms. (i.e. Can Syria employ the Nazi cross
as their flag, if they choose so? Can Cuba change its name to
Florida, employ the statue of Liberty as its flag and start
propaganda that the Maine state in the USA belongs to Cuba, by
virtue of so many Cubans living there?)
Naming a country after a neighboring region is a de facto
irredentist strategy aimed at destabilizing the region, and hoping
that the country, will absorb the neighboring region.
2) Why does Greece object to the use of the `Vergina Sun' on the FYROM
flag?
The Vergina Sun, the emblem of Philip's dynasty, symbolizes the
birth of our nation. It was the first time (4th century BCE) that
the Greek mainland (city-states and kingdoms) with the same language,
culture, and religion were united against the enemies of Asia in one
league. At the same time the fractured Greek world grew conscious of
its unity. And, in this sense, we have never been apart since then.
The `Sun' was excavated in Greece in 1978, prior to that date this
symbol never appeared in any slavic motif anywhere on the planet,
much less in any motif inside FYROM even prior to its adoption by
the current regime. This motif does appear in many Greek buildings
and paintings throughout the ages.
3) Why did Greece impose the embargo?
After talking with the FYROMian Government fruitlessly for 2 years
and going nowhere, then and only then did the Greek state implement
the partial embargo as last resort to advance the issue.
4) Why do you claim exclusive rights to the symbols of the ancient
Macedonians?
We have linguistic, cultural, genealogical, and geographic ties to
the ancient Greeks and Macedons. They (FYROM) are mostly Slavs who
descended after 600 CE in the region, and have no ties whatsoever
(ancient Makedonia was within modern Greece since its inception).
Even after the great expansion by Philip the II and Alexander the
Great in the 400s BCE, perhaps even less than 10% of the FYROMian
land was part of the `enlarged kingdom'. The reader should realize
that the punitive expeditions of the Macedonians in the north, as
well as their imperial acquisitions in the Balkans and Asia did not
necessarily produce a `wider concept of Macedonia' - a country with
boarders extending to India. That would be most simplistic!
Pella, the capital of the ancient Makedones, is well within modern
Greek borders.
5) What proof do you have that the ancient Macedonians were Greek?
The vast majority of major historians believe that the ancient
Macedonians were Greek. Those who still remain skeptical, say that
they need more evidence before proclaiming the ancient Macedonians
as Greek. But no one says that ancient Macedonians were not Greek.
Recent excavations close to their ancient capital, Aigai, including
the discovery of the `tomb of Philip the II', reinforce the Greek
identity of the ancient Macedonians categorically.
Thousands of items , including columns, inscriptions,pottery, paint-
ings, etc. can be found throughout the museums of Macedonia. All
without exception are of the Greek culture beyond any doubt.
In any case, all historians admit that by Roman times the ancient
Macedonians were fully homogenized with the rest of Greeks, and that
Macedonia stopped existing as a separate socio-cultural entity some
600 years before any contact with the first Slavs in the Balkans.
6) How can appropriating Greece's history, be irredentist?
History is the means for laying claims on foreign lands. The
Macedonian argument was promoted by the 3rd Commintern (USSR) and
their allies in the region just prior to WWII, to create an
independent greater Macedonia for social experimentation. Bulgarians
have said that Alexander the Great was a Bulgarian while occupying
Macedonia (Greek) on behalf of the Germans in WWII.
Tito sent 5,000 Yugoslavs and "Slav-Macedonians" to Greece after
WWII to work with their allies in the region to annex Makedonia
(Greek) while we were too busy fighting a civil war. These were the
same people that now live in FYROM. 3 times in the recent past the
same propaganda has been used as justification by different
interests (Commintern, Bulgaria, (S)NOF-Yugoslavia) to invade (or
try to) Greece. Even today, just when the name and flag were been
adopted in independent FYROM, VMRO and Gligorof were talking about
reclaiming "their" lands in Greece and Bulgaria.
7) Who populated the lands of modern FYROM in the past?
The ancient people inhabiting the area around Skopje, at the time of
the ancient Macedonians, were the Dardanians, and their land was
called Dardania. Throughout their modern history, the region now
occupied by FYROM was populated mostly by Bulgarians.
The creation of "Macedonia" (FYROM, SROM) was artificial.
Ex-Yugoslavs will attest to that. FYROM is comprised of Albanians,
Serbs, and Bulgarians and their language is a Bulgarian dialect with
a few Serbo-croatian words. Bulgarians will attest to that and
understand/speak "Macedonian".
In any case FYROM's president admitted publicly that the current
inhabitants of FYROM are slavs.
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century . . .
we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
( President of FYROM Ciro Gligorov,
from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report,
Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35.)
8) What about their claim of a large minority in Greece?
After usurping the name and the flag, surprise! They start claiming
that Greeks in Macedonia (Greek) are a FYROM minority. After all we
all identify as Macedonians. Thus, we must be the same...
Some people in the Net claim 1 mill minority in Macedonia (Greek).
The population of Macedonia (Greek) is 2 mill. I am a Macedonian
(Greek) same with other Greeks on this group. We don't have anything
in common with FYROM. We are Greek.Finally the recent Euro-Elections
revealed only with their cause (therefore propably a FYROM
minority) 10,000! Not fantasies of 1 million!
The latter can be found in the latest State Department report about
the Slavic minority of Greece.
9) Why doesn't the Greek government recognize the "Macedonian"
minority?
Greek parents have been sending their children to Macedonian schools
for years, expecting them to learn Greek, not Bulgarian. Macedonian
people (Greeks) are already a majority in Greece, with Macedonian
churches, schools and cultural centers teaching Greek and regional
dances and songs.
The Greek government can neither recognize a minority with the same
name, as the majority, nor build non-Greek schools and churches
with the same name. Greek courts have offered to open cultural
centers for their minority, under a different name (than
Macedonian). They have refused.
As long as they use the term "Macedonian" to describe their
nationality, their minority in Greece cannot be recognized
since the same name is used by the Greeks of Macedonia to describe
themsleves for much longer that the written history of any slavic
tribe.
10) What are Greece's objections with FYROM's constitution?
There are two points of concern
In their preamble, they define their FYROM state as a departure
from the " ...historic decisions of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of
the People's Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM)... ". The problem is
that ASNOM had called for the "Macedonians" in Bulgaria and other
countries to unite under Tito's rule.
Their language in article 49 is also problematic (too extensive to
go into here).
At Greece's request they have added 2 amendements stating that they
have no claims on neighbouring countries. Still, that is in
contradiction with their preample, and it is to their benefit
to rewrite those articles to avoid contradictions and vagueries in
their Constitution.
11) Does Greece have any territorial or other claims on FYROM?
In 1993, Serbia's President Milocevic, invited Greece to invade
FYROM. Greece declined it.
FYROM is surrounded by claims of Greater Albania, Greater Bulgaria
and Greater Serbia. Greece is the only one not interested in FYROM.
It is a poor, barren place with no Hellenic ties or history. Greece
has the beach-front property (Aegean), and the economy differential
between the two countries would only create problems for the
richer one (Greece).
12) Is Greece really afraid of FYROM?
Presently FYROM is too weak to threaten Greece militarily or
otherwise. However, considering that
a) A general draft can raise an army of 700,000 in FYROM;
b) Greece has had to fight several times against similar claims in
this century to secure and defend its northern region
(Macedonia);
c) the Balkans are currently in a map-changing mode;
d) shifting alliances may change the balance of power in the near
future;
The Greek state feels that the "inexplicable" adoption of an
Irredentist name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative
acts designed to establish future claims on Greek Macedonia.
Especially since the lifting of the embargo, the designations in the
FYROMIAN passports appear without the Greek cities marked as such,as
if these cities were part of FYROM. To add insult to injury the
cities are printed with the slavicized version of their name , i.e.
Solun instead of Thessaloniki, Ler instead of Florina etc.
The recent assasination attempt against the president of FYROM by
ultranationalists, on the wake of the signing of an agreement with
Greece, only enforces the belief that this newborn state is a cradle
of violence and instability.
It is very interesting to note that official FYROM circles have
blamed Bulgaria in this attempt ! It seems that this little country
is surrounded by enemies !
13) Appendix:
All the above points are easily supported by availlable evidence, a
thimblefull of which appears below. The extent of propaganda unleashed
against Greece on this issue is simply staggering. FYROM is believed to
use the Soros development funds on an international smear campaign.
Collection of various FYROMian propaganda items.
Quotes:
"A major campaign will soon be underway to inform the rest of the
Balkans about the truth concerning the sections of the Macedonian
people in Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria who were divided and ENSLAVED
after the Balkan Wars. The leading Macedonian nationalist parties,
in their desire to see a larger Macedonia, made no secret of their
intention to bring these territories back within the sovereign state,
and do not hide their determination that it is only a matter of days
before the power of Macedonia redraws the borders of Bulgaria, Greece
and Serbia."
(Kiro Gligorov, interview in the
periodical Nin, Feb. 1, 1991)
"Actually, WE FORESEE a unification of all the parts of Macedonia
the Pirin, the Aegean, the Vardar (presently the INDEPENDENT
Republic), and Mala Prespa/Golo Brdo. That will be achieved in a
peaceful manner, for NOONE CAN DENY THE RESOLVE OF THE MACEDONIANS
TO LIVE IN A MACEDONIAN STATE **FREE OF FOREIGN RULE**. Macedonia
was divided among its neighbors in 1913; it's time it got reunified."
(Boris Docevski, Brainwashed Internet Propagandist,
posted in soc.culture.greek on April 21, 1995)
Instances of the FYROMian misinformation campaign:
On 17 June 1990, the founding conference of VMRO-DPMNE
(the 'Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation'),
the extreme nationalist party within the 'Socialist
Republic of Macedonia (SRM), adopted a proclamation stating,
inter alia, that it would "fight for a free, autonomous and
united Macedonia" within the framework of a prospective "European
federation " on the basis of "the Ilinden ideals". VMRO won more
seats than any other party at the elections in the SRM, with 37
out of a total of 120.
Ljupce Georgievski, President of VMRO, has stated that he
is "in favour of the spiritual, intellectual and territorial
unification of Macedonia" (Borba, 31.12.90). On 7 November
1990 he had this to say: "The Macedonia of Pirin, the Aegean
and the Vardar is not Greater Macedonia: it is simply Macedonia.
We shall be talking of Greater Macedonia when we claim Belgrade, Sofa,
Thessaly, Valona and elsewhere".
During a tour of Canada, Vasil Tupurkovski-who represented Skopje in
the former collective Presidency of Yugoslavia-made the following
statement on television: "Europe has already proved that it can
resolve the question of unification among peoples, as happened in the
case of Germany. And if that can be done once in Europe, there is no
reason why Europe should hold itself aloof from the national ideals of
a people such as the Macedonian people ".
Asked by a journalist whether the Macedonians ought to struggle harder
for cultural and spiritual unification rather than territorial unity,
he replied: "I believe that the national ideal cannot be subjected to
constraints, and that it includes territorial unification ".
SRM deputy K. Petrov submitted a VMRO-supported proposal to the
Parliament of Skopje early in January 1991 calling for the adoption of
a declaration concerning the independence and sovereignty of the SRM
and for it to submit to the international organisations claims "for the
return of territories held by Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania,
which belong to the SRM by virtue of the fact that Macedonians live
there".
An extract from an article in the periodical Nin (1 February 1991):
"The new President of Macedonia, Kiro Gligorov, has stated that a
major campaign will soon be under way to inform the rest of the Balkans
about the truth concerning the sections of the Macedonian people
in Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria who were divided and enslaved after
the Balkan Wars. The leading Macedonian nationalist parties, in their
desire to see a larger Macedonia, make no secret of their intention
to bring these territories back within the sovereign state, and
do not hide their determination that it is only a matter of days
before the power of Macedonia redraws the borders of Bulgaria,
Greece and Serbia ".
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