o.oth
Subjeot was picked up at BVy M. and J.0 houra while Roger prorlded aurvelllanae cover. Subject arrived at tha Bale apartment3 houra. Testerdsy andaa at the Embassy twice on each day, both in the morning and the afternoon. They are extremely busy at tha Embassy beoauoe all of the Embassy officers on thetaff are writing their portion of the report to MOSCOW for the month aince the Ambassador ia going to MOSCOW In about two days and mustull up-to-date report of the Eafcaaay with him. He will report to MID and to whoever else he may ha required to. During hia absence he will he replaced by HIMSHCHTHO who will rrive from MOSCOWay or two. The Ambassador will stay in.onsiderable time because he will alao participate at the Party Congreaa and alao possibly will attend the con fa re noes afterwards. These conferences will be with the Heads of tha Cceaeunist Parties from various countries. The Ambassadors to foreign countries do not always have personal oontact with local Communists, but they certainly confer with the Heads of or representatives of the Heads of Ccsnunlst Parties at oonferenoes such as will be taking place now. This io in line with the guidance of "brotherly" Coornuniat Parties.
8.1 poke to the Resident andpoke both with tha RsEident and with his Deputy. Yesterday the Resident told me be was very busy due to the work he had to do in connection with the Ambassador's Imminent departure snd he aaked rerief run-down of my own plans. old himas trying to have two visits to factories of interest arranged snd he said that that was fine snd for me to do It in anyaw fit but to inoludo SOLOVYEV whoolid cover in the Torgpredstvo jUBt like kutjkiavtsev and has no acquaintanceb here yet alnce he has only been here three months. When he aaked melanned to doald that wo would meet people at the factoriesouldIEV to the factory repreaentatlvea aad requeat that the factory representatives obtain brnernires or ctfherr- maSariJiIs for ae ae the representative of the Committee. of. snd send this to me via SOLOVYEV in the future. Hs said that that was fine and
that /
It
approved for release
82
hould do it that way and that he had arrangod for SOLOVTSV to
accompany no to JUMONT and then he naked when thle would he. aid in* one, two or even three days end in addition we wouldlant in PARIS. He urged that the plants selected be in the category of thoee whloh produce products on the target list of requirementsaidould try. Ba aaldan eee that you ere really tryinglao want to eay thst acme of the brochures that you have brought are of considerable interest". ad already given then allave reoelved to date end today we exsadned them, aboutill tell ycuoment. He then asked if he could help me ln any sayaidould ooms in on Priday to submit my local accounting to him and to paaa ell the additional rate rialseceive from my acquaintances and oontaota end write up my report. oldould not come in to the gab*say on Saturday since theybort working day anyway end thereew purchasesave to make for people book hone. He said that would be perfectly all right andould need even sore time to make ay purchases.
whlch would go to CPU by Diploaatla Pouoh and what would go to the"heavy mall". At thatwe all eat together, that la the Resident,AHANTEV and myself end all we did wae to examine myone third wee ee para tod out for GRU. Itig pile, aboutinmaterial which wae the aample and ita deaorlpticn,
threen heat re ale ting eteel end your sate rial on electronic* were included. Broohuree from Bagneaux and Pechlney were ell included ln thle. Tha balance for tha Committee waa wrapped up and KUDHTAVTSSV took lt to hia office to forward to the Committee. old them there would be more and they said they would again examine it with me and again divide it up between CPU end the Coandttee aa they did with thle batch. They examined lt for over an hour, rery oa re fully and were quite satisfied, but re quee if posaible toittle more on Bagneauxhiney_aince thle material waa of great interest.
houree with HOOK. poke for an hour with HOOK
and he said very apologetically that he waa unable to arrange any tripe. He
eeyeould not go to JUMOffT, since they would not receive meeek
end the plant that sakee chemical equipment haa ita Director absent for some
time and could not receive me. (Baboock and Wiloox). Neithero to the
electronics plant in PARIS. The people ln JUMONT aald that prior to any trip
hould haveetter written to the Foreign Affairs Ministry of
France. old HOOK that if hs had told me thatould have had a
letter from our Enbesey officially requeatlng thle permission, but now it ia
too late ainoe lt wouldours before they would read the letter end thay
would setisit for next weak,uat leave on Sunday. Evidently
BOOK did not know that this waa neoeaaary and he had Just found out. He has
reat deal and he feels vary badly that he has Been unable torr
arrangementa ho tried eo bard to est up. Hiethus far are of no
great value but heood so tc get me more. annot complain sinoe HOOK
has tried eo hard,a glad that we are meeting now to decide what to do
next, that la Important for me now la to make only one visit eomewhera, not
two or three, and aa far aa other arrangexenta arean give then
plauaible reasons as to why they did not work cut particularly with tha
uoetponemant of the vieit to JUHONT. My dear friends,eed is
visit
visit and eome sore brochures. Xe already bare the brochures, don't worry about that, and they are good ones, you will aae then later. Tou can say they came froa both HOOK and WYNNE. uyant to aak you If In eome way through tha Embassy of tha United States or the Embassy of GreatWfjwst crrain Bea wrench fins to reoelTs me as an official representativeommittee of. m not thinking clearly nowust left HOOK, hut see If you cannot gat one visit arranged for ms. Tomorrowost day also because HOOK asked me to call him onlyO houra (Next meeting's transcript mayifferent turn to this expeoted plan). now he will try to do something all day tomorrow, and maybe by chance eomething will work out but that would leave only Thuraday or Friday in which toisit. ust go to the Embassy again and give them some reaaon for the delay. Thla is the situation with respect to my trips snd tha work for the Committee. Don't worry about tha materials, you will have them. also discussed with ee the possibility of his. in December, January or February. ave him advice about how to request his vlaa and what lectures to prepare, etc. Ha wrote everything down about the procedureaeooimended. The only thing wo can hope for at thia late ataga ia that by some small* oan arrange one visit for you. Onm sure that he Is serious but let us face the fact that hs is not dealing with the American public or the British public. For our Embassies to Intercede would be the height of foolishness, since it would limine te te Shr Frvcxx- nxr irtervri Ix yco,i wrcOm b* ft. translates). ould heve tried to sauce contacts through official channels, but the results would have been worthless ln terms ofould be shown,hought that through special connectionsee you do not have at yourould get to see such placesould not be Invited to go officially. Another point is that you should not be too successful here. If you are they nay decide to send you beck to FAS IS and this ia the last place that w* want to meet again. We want to meetlace like LCVDCir or America, under conditions that we oan control and notlace where we have no oontrol. Remember the re are French regulations hero
*a/
as laid down by their Ministry of foreign Affairs with respeet to visitsfactories by Bovieta, trying hard but he le not experienced
in these things. ould haveeek ago aa official as you would want it, but now lt ia out of the question became* tine le eoow would not even mention thle tc the Eateeey since the Ambassador ie too busy to be seen, if ah ownetter for hie signature mould aay that lt la useless to aend it nowm leaving on Sunday and why waa thia not done
*a
earlier. At any rateould only have one vieitaximum amount ofould introduce 9DL0VTEV qulokly to wherever we visited and it would take care of the whole thing. G. i Alloan do ia to do hla beat, and that be will do. Oneo not understand is that if the Dlreotor of the Chemical Kqulpnant Plant la away why could not hia Deputy receive Every firm haa their own internal regulations.
S. i elieve that we ahould meet twice moreeave. Tee.
Thursday end on Saturday. And let ue try aa hard ae possible for to sake ae an appointment toirm, for aay only an hour or en houralf on Thursday morning, andar to my hotel0 hours, eked him about thleleo told himouldar for him in MOSCOW ell the time. All hla guide haa to do is to take SOIfJVTEV and myself to the firm end he oan go, we can get beck cureelvee. Thle leave to report on thleannot add anything.
6. ow let me check sy notes to see if there la anything on other natters.
Iave reported everything. Tell me, waa ZA33RIN'e information on the
number of aircraft correct ? ust know this ln order to have en idea on how
to handle TASORTH in the future. (Subject was reassured that ZASORTJT*a
Information was satisfactory and thst he should continue to respect him ae a
reliable srniro* because the number of planea committed ln various categories"-*
waa even greater than that reported end since nc specific plane categorise
were given by ZASORTH it was Impossible to determine what unite it referred" to).
By the wsy ANAFTE? told m* yesterday that the KGB in PARIS are
working full blast, with Communists In every walk of life. The GRU officers
only approach those Ocanuaiate who haw* had eome military background or are
relatives /
relatives of suoh and only after they have had permission to do eo. The KCB ahould be watched by our French frlenda.
i By the way we have been vorklng now constantly for alx months,
out of which we have been westing at aloes Intervals like now for over two axntha. Alls Be are well aware of this. S. i ented to say Is that you have helped re to underatand, you havo guided mem very grateful for this attention to me on your part and on the part of your leadera. We have planned to do Just aa you requested. On Thursday we will lay out tho complete missions for you to accomplish In priority order, and you will oopy them down. In addition we will review all aspects of ths operational plan. On the last meeting on Saturday yeu will repeat to us tho missions assigned to you to bo aura that you underatand everything and then we will simply relax andood time.
S. i net alao remind you againook froa you of some sortrief summary description in Russian of its contents. Thla book nuat bsype that the Soviets would be interested in having fully translated and published. In additionateromplete translationery serious and worthwhile military article based on documentsan legend as coming from the aaterlal at GRU ofavo givenat. engthy discussion explaining to subject how all this would take tine, he wasook with the title 'Ban and Space' whioh waa borrowed from the Library of. Embassy and publishedl. Subjeot was so delighted with this book, although it ia quite elementaryechnical sense, that he insisted after still greater lengthy discussion that he wanted to take thia book back with him and that byummry in Russian he prepared for him. This suzrary ha would re-work at home with appropriate political overtones and presentation and re-type it prior to submitting it to the officials who would decide if the book would he of valueosrdete translation and publication. Toward this end the help ofould be available and subject felt strongly that thla would support hia legend for constantly requesting Soviet documents aa ostensible background material for the srtielo bs Is If the officials decide tbat the book la worthy
of/
of translation and publication, subjeot would wo advis- ub through Janet and would expect rag to provide hiaater dateull translation of the book which he would use to check the translation by the Soviet publications translation bureau. It waa agreed that M. would read the book and sunwise chapter by chapter in English and teat G. would translate thla summary into Russian and hare it available for subject at ths latest rt Saturday*meeting. Subjeot also aakedook review on thia volume translated Into RusBian If the hook were accepted for translation and publication. Re insisted that hie acquisition of the book Itself would be by simple direct purchase in PARISook store snd that despite the factumber of oopiea may already be in. from. book acquisition peraonnel, the idea of his calling attention to the book as of value and writingummary thereon le the significant point. Though this appears like hisaah to ub, it may he possible that subjecttalking about and tela can do hla considerable good and no ham at all.)
Bow soon do you expect tee full translation after you advise
through Janet that the book will be published ? Remember thia may take two months to translate for the full text. That ie too long, don't you have experts where one reads it out In English and the other writes it straight off in Russian ? Bo. And besides you don'took like you oook blini, to quota you. Before you get the word that it should be translated you oould pick up tbe book reviews on it and have that ready. (The length of this summary would run to aboutaje ^er-Saxr tkr> the significance of the contents and the total would be approximately six pages. Subject was nowew set of brochures mostly English, but with some French, snd he proceeded to sort them out aa to whioh would be of interest to both the GRU and to the Committee and which were not necessary at all. He alao received several general directories. After tee pllea sore selected, those which subjeot desired were later wrapped up and he took them with him to deliver to tho Embassy next morning).
0,1 Bow we will sat into our Questions. First of all let no clear up ene we had at tbe last nesting. Tou saidarge strategic missile
/
7
a
base la defendedn addition to aircraft. S. t Ml In addition
thia cam be supplemented by conventional antl-alrcraft batteries, Iho
told you that thia aaa eo 7ekod thle queation tenften
aaked VARENTSOV how ournd industrial centre protected.
X wee always told that thia le done by the cowhined PVO weapons available. This
includes the proven and accepted anti-air stlssiles,s well ss aviation
and all types of conventional antl-alrcraft artillery. That la the precise
role of5 ad ss lies 7 Their role ie to protect against hostile
sircrsft which spproaoh the sdssile base, butre not adjacent to
the site where the miase is, but eose dlstenoe away. ven be
several hundred kilcesitrea sway. "sell, that le some thing else, thst ie
the whole point of the question. Before we had the impression that you meant
thesewere adjacent to the aite. Ho, not at all. First they sre
picked up by radar long in advene* end Its aourse vas determined ploked up by radar. Just aa POBERS' aircraft was/and the5
action ee soon as the hostile aircraft le within their range, but the aircraft'a
target couldms. easy.
Do you by any chance know or have heardRU officer by the
nam of Isanti Alekaandrowich KCTSVETAJLO 7 Thereeneral TSVETATEV who died,ave not heard of this name, he sounds like sn Asiatio. Ct That's right and he was supposed to havo been here at the French Exhibition. Ha may have come here under the auspices of tha RGB or from the Minietry of Foreign Trade, the KGB does not give ue list* of who they send, that le to the Committee, end neither does the Ministry of Foreignever ran into thia fellow.
Ci The next question deals with your experience in Turkey. Tou eaid that the GHU Legal Resldenturas InORK and SA/irrHGTOWend also that the GRU has legal Rort'dentursa lb AUFJJTA' OTr tttkeer two Turkish Resldenturas aleo co-operate end If so to what extent 7 Tee, they doave told you about this naturally. Forable onoe from ISTANBUL anyotential agent under
eesasament /
assessment was going to ANKARA from ISTANBUL. la were ra guested to check on ths hotel he wee staving at, and they gars oa two possibilities, snd the duration of his visit. CTRIHent out to look for this Turk, Ve went out and made this check for the ISTANBUL Resldentura and sent thea the results. emember that ws sentoded message, using numbers, with the results. Between Realdenturws they use one-time pads for ooding and these oan be transmitted either by phone or courier* If by phone it Iselephenagram. Thoro is very good oo-operatlon and mutual support between Realdenturea ln the same country, just as between WASnNOTON and NEW TORK.
Isenior Resident, tc ahoa the other Resident Is
subordinate 7 No. Both are completely Independent, Bach has ita own operational funds, its own sgent net and ita own direct communication ohaiwiel to MOSCOW. Neither one knowa what the other sends or receives from MOSCOW. Ws for example heve throe channels for ocnwamicatlng with our people inne la ooeaunioatlon with ths Illegal Resldentura and the other two ere tc each of the two legal Reiidenturas.
I Try to reoall tho people in Turkey, Do you remember Ivan
pen avion KARCALTSEV 7 erce steer himnew hla. C. 1 How about Sergei Pollkarpovloh emember himelieve they were both Novel officers. Cl Do you know what they were engaged ln 7 In ths first place KARCALTSEV waa in ISTANBUL and ao was TRISHTN. aa ln. ANKARA,ot to know them and KARCALTSEV cans to visit ae in ANKARA and heaptain 3rd Rank. They were there at the same timeas inad KARCALTSEV together with other ISTANBUL officers to dinner at ay home. Hebort, thin man. It was standard practice to Invite visiting officers fromCL to our hemes or to restaurants when tbey oane to ANKARA and they would always entertain us in the same way when ws went to their town, Do you know if they sore possibly engaged in support operations forelieve that this is an absolutely reasonable aa sumption and they were more busily engaged in support operations for illegals in ISTANBUL than we were in ANKARA. In the first place ISTANBULarge elty ofnd
there/
thers mould be sorein that area than In ANKARA whicharge Tillage, hut evenememberersonally nave support toead-drop. They sere travelling (asrsh-rutnlk) illegal a.
i Do you know who they were or what you gave thea. Ho, all,ignal that. waa cleared, o know whatin, since lt waa aoney. Itire at one time and leas ontime. Did you have speolfio missions concerning illegals'the acquisition ofail drop or legend material T
8,1 re given ml salons of this kind end so is the Legal Reel denture. They send their Information to MOSCOW for thea to use aa they see fit. hat support sotlvltles of this nature did you do ?emember that at leaat one letter every monthalf would oome froa MOSCOW for us to post locally. All of us didIRIH snd myself. Bow about documentation forackground legend T ft did this also. There haa always been an Illegal Realdontura in Turkey,on't know air/thing about it but now that an experienced own like General SUDIN haa been sent there he may break up the Resldentura Into several units or develop thea further. on't know whot. There were missions to get all kinds of items of local clothing to the last detail. lso did this twice during my sixteen months there. These items wero sent back by diplomatic mall. ent out with COR'TBV to buy this. The clothing we bought was of the type commonly worn ln Turkey, They wero all simple items of clothing. How about documentation itself ? emember an incident there where Turkish workers were hired by the Embassy to do repair work and their pass porta wore picked upemember that ths Consul who was a KGB man, Vladlen FEDOROV, ealled ao at that time. Incidentally both FEECROV and Alekssy VOSXOBOT are now studying at the KGB Institute beyond Pokrovsko-Streahnevo aboutold you before. The latter oalled ae from there histeft for PARISill see hlaot beck,
i Bow PEDOROV when he would get auch passports in Turkeywork on them himself or give them to us and we would writsthose passportspecial documentation index book (something like a
vsry /
*rV*
very elaborate document Identikit), There would be number* keyed to everyor colour and every poeelble dimension la keyed to number*. We would make reference a, for example, tond the Centre would know exaotly what we mean since they have an identical book, ever told you about this before, this is something new. By numerical reference* every letter in every line of the passport oan be spotted for else ete. and every other detail. If three lines lower on the passport different lettering ln else end colour le used, there wouldonwsponding numerical index again by page and line end that would identify it exaotly. Thle Is celled "etslony". All ehadea of colour and all types of line* in paper Including wavy lines, can be pinpointed.
a
Using thia book which ia Top Secret end only for clandestinet ie poeelble to duplioate any document in the world. Thisery cumbersome end detailed process to write up end the dooorlptionassport may take ten pages. how do they handle descriptions of paper texture ? For thia they do many thinge. They try to buy eladler paper, then thoy try to got blank aamplea and finally we haveollection of stolen actual pan sports, from all countries. uplicationorgery la to be made ofurkish passport, en actual passport ia looked at, together with the report on the "etalony". The documentation export oan then see what changes may have taken place snd hs can spot any dot or speclsl mark and the measurements sre done to the millimetre. Vhen FEDOROV save uaassport we would have to work cn itay or two. After that the passports would be reo tha wrrhrrs -whobeen eny tbe Embei for several days. This Is acne in ell countries snd le called technical intelligence.
Special requirement* era occasionally sent out snd in every
country ell new items in the photography and the audio-radio field are always picked up and saaplee continually sent to afJSGOT. All types of radio spare parte are purchased ae the Centre order* u* to and quitelandestine agent piece of equipment vould be composed of totally. parte, Tha prevalent types are Vaat German, American, English snd French models.
This/
*
along In terms of their being arrested or not, el lee or HI and were theytable financial poaltion. Thla ad salon was particularly ssalgnad to my predeoessor, KDNDRASHEV and when he turned over the Military Attache affaire to ma, as well as gru matters, he told ma Just to keep an eye on them but not to contact then until ths Centre gave instructions. akp ofould spot the store for you eaally.
(At thisrier pause was am da to change Can you describe this woman ? I've already estimated heris about average heightan't remember her esemember any better than that. The sen la overt If they are being paid through what channels do they receive money ? Of course they ore being paid and thoy get It via dead drop,every three months. on't remember the. t Haveong time nov T Teaery long time, I'd saybefore tha last ear. Tere thoy always in this location
S. I o not know but they were there at the timeas there, that ahould bo very easy to check up on from the records of the store's proprietorship. The store should be most easy to flnd.^It is the only silver shop in that immediate vicinity,
G.i Me sill now return to the old sat of questions. When you deaoribad the "MAPS' as two-stage, what did you mean ? snd Is lt obsolete now snd being discarded ? No. It has been further improved and instead of the "MARS" they now have the "LONA" whioh replaces it. But the "MARS" la sotrimr theyrsrt xoxeber- erf thmrdmrr amy be-possibly ten thousand of them, which are too many simply to use op in practice. Itery simple construction. Ths "LONA" Is larger and haa the same sort of functional characteristicsettor range. Did you say they are both two-stage roeketa T S. i Let mo explain the meaning. The rocket flies as one single unit, but they have an upper and lower aet of jeta for propulsion whioh work togetherixed relationship aa the propellent. The rocket does not separate into two stages during flight. That io the true meaningwo-stage rooket. Theae rockets have two levels at whioh the thrust ia developed, hut lt fllea as one unit.
It la well known that the automobile factor/ in GORKTY bullor oarriera for hear/ rockets. Bare you heard froei eitheror BUZINOV that rockete are aleo aaaa there 7avorocket aueatbllee are aeutufeotured there. ave heard about thiasources, POZOVNTT wae oneentioned the other men to you, hethe Aoadeny with Is "LONA" ln serial production T And ia it iaeued to troop-i Yes it is ln serial production and has already been given to Is the "KORSHUN" obeolete or is it still in use ? It is
ln use end thej havearge number of thesu It cannot even be written
i
off like theeince therereet number of theee rocketa Inis. weapon and ltiquid fuel rooket of thacannot tell ycu why it waa not shown in the Pare
Ct Have ycu heard anything further on the status of delivery of mlesllee to the satellites, particularly during your laet etsy In MO eported to you before that certain categories of rockete ere being given to them,. rocketa. The satellite troops aro being trained in using these weapons and Soviet instructors are assisting ln the training. There ere many test firings. The only new development ie that ell this ie being further perfected. When are they expected to be operational ln aatellite amies, for example the armies ofhe Czech and the Polish 7 It le estimated that they are operational now. They have already had teat firings and thle can only be done if the preliminary training haa been completed. After troopa have gone through rocket firing training lt must be clear that theae rocket unite are operational. Even in the ease of guided missiles the entire difficulty is in saucing the computations. The actual firing technique le relatively simple. The satellite troopa might etill require more experience in making their computations toarget exactly, but there ia no problem in their ability to fire^ When GOPPE was the Commander Of Artillery in theathlan Military District, did he have free rockete or mi si lies under hia oontrol then ? Sat He certainly dbd and that was one reason why he waa taken from
there /
therea man mho had practical experience in operating auch rooketa, in addition to hlaapable aan and General.
G. t Remember you mentioned that at the Engineer Aoadene/ Imeni
KUTBYB3IRV any be concerned with construction problems and training of troopa for altlng aaaller missiles. Does It hare anything to do with the largerbeee construction auch aa MOSKAIZWKD controla ? S. i s dene/ la in MOSCOW on ulltsa Obukha, They hare eereral faculties there. They train fort iftlon specialists and pioneer engineer troops who ar* concerned site all typea of field fortification*old you teat they also train engineer* In tha construction of every type of auxiliary and basic equipment on the ground for missilencluding bunker* eta. Would thi* inolude all types of rockets, swan ICBMs ? Absolutely,ooket*. This Academyeneral academy and it train* engineers for every category of engineer work. Even for GUASS which is the Chief Directorate of Airfields and Special Construction of ths Ministry of Defence t Absolutely. All that must be specified Is what speoiel training must be given for the type of engineer required. This academy Is th* only engineer academy ln. All other engineer training installations are achool* or higher Bohools. Those train junior officer*. The Aoademypeoial faculty whioh train* engineer* for engineering construction for rocket*.
Dee* GRAU control any planta at all or does it just have
t planta to keep an eye on production ? S. t They have voyenpredy (military representatives) and these representatives ere charged with the checking of each item of military equipment completed. They would condamn any defects and particularly for rooket* they must oheokItemechnical oheok aheet (formulsr) before they sign it and accept it for delivery to an Army depot. Everything saist fall between allowablehereot Just one representativelant. There are brigades of thorn snd thay aro all subordinate to GRAU. Therepeoial GRAU Directorate that Is orsnntsefl to handle the renresentetlve*. C: Jj% the terxdnolory of the organisation oonsUting of officers who staff thia correct as the Otdel Tokhniohoakogo Kontrolya T The terminology la oorrect, but itirectorate, not an otdol. Thi* la an ^normcua organisation and consists
of/
of thouasnda of officer* which are sent all over th* country and lto lores that It *ven ha* Its own Personnel Section which In turnubordinate to the Peraonnsl Direotor*te of CRAB. There are aany other personnel *eotlon* in GRAU, each one *errlolng the different GRA0 Directorate*. Many of my alas bom tea from my VAX oourae were sent to GRAU where they went out as military representative* on rocket*.
G, i Vhere0 tank produced T In the Uralo, near hut exactlyo not know. G. i Row about5 tank ? Thle i* built ln GORXTT *nd also in the Orals. ust thought of, his name Is COLUB. B* graduated fro* th*Aoademy9 and he works in GRAU on rockets and he had beenAdjutant of VARENTSOV**, Bi* namladimir snd bi* wife's* running around with someraughting engineerhinklairl friend.
C. i In July you mentioned tbe amount of mcney spent on tank production In one year. Do you recall what year thla figure was for T S, i an't remember. When VARENTSOV mentioned it, he was complaining shout hi* being eritiolaed for putting up permanent artillery housing shelters Instead of canvas.ar* you thi* Information Inon't remember lt any longer.
o you think you could find out from POZOVNTT about the production of strategic bomber* in general and details of production designers, partlcUb-rly cf those plants at RlIbTShTV sndILL ould easily.
That's fin* and that would be of great interest.
0,1 I* KASHIB still at On* of ay first problem*eturn to aBSOOWo get KAJHTN transferred froao th* Dserzhlnskly Aoademyave already made arrange mo fits In the Personnel Section. Will ho tell you all about his work there when you see. i Of course he will, he will tell me everything and let me again emphasise to you that people like KASfUN andan very simply invite to my homean record all their conversationsape-recorder with ease and security. dmit that it woulu be dangerous to record
the/
eVAs/al
the conversations of VARENTSOV, tho Hln it tor or people on the Oenerolagainequestiniature wire re corner to canyeoond onemail/Iso Uble model vhlch oould behie homo). When KASHXNill est very valuable informtion on from hia beoauee he le getting ready to present tha mate rial ahas collected for hie Who told you thst female astronauts vould be launchednext yearwas told to aa by both BUZINOVOVNTT.
.They sald that they vented to ante- the world end^they hove already selected
roup of athletic type woven to train for this,
Do you recall that at the Rumanian Reception in early August, KHRUSHCHEV spokeundred megaton bomb, not one megaton aa you The point ie that KHRUStCHEV was drunk and he wasn't speaking of megs ton equivalents of any kind, he ves speaking of the actual weight In tons. Heundred ton of actual weight, adxlng up nuclear yield vith weight. He Just mixed everything up and both Sergei Sergeievich end BUZINOV told me about thle* Did either one of them make any statement on the military feasibility or value ofeapon,egaton TNT equivalent Ho, that le pure fantasy. Thst say be desirable but no-one ever mentioned thia,
( VTNNE vaa about to ring, but eubjeot said that be would ratherittle longer vith us end not go out with VTNNE that evening, but did request that VTNNE be given tbe suit oases with hia purchases made by us so that WYNNE oould deliver thea to hie hotel0 houra cn the next day. Thle was dona by Roger during the next hour).
C.: The last group of questions deals with your epeelolity, the CPU and particularly the counter-intelligence aapeota. Now listen carefully end you aay remember, alnoe you were involved ln these thingeesk offloer at one Uae.Did the QHU Fifth Directorate, the Sabotage boy a, have any operations planned for India, Paklatan end Ceylon end if ao, specifically what ? The Fifth Direotoratehole pragramna planned for every country in the vcrldong time and of oouree thle includes theae three countries. They sre continuously refining the Information to suit this plan.
1/
9
I can toll jou tha exact things they wanted to knowae Bitting an the desk. Froa the Resident lnae constantly receiving date on drop semes. There were complete eree deaorlptlons end all terrain details and also orientation points and even eignale that oould be used In parachute or airborne operations. All majores end other targe te were ol early oriented with respect to each drop acne. The entire local poliosurlty situation ms.slnQ-dlBCuaaed. Thleery ooaplete report and its lined by tbe Fifth Direotorate. Specific data Ib either put in operational despatches or in bobsa an annexe to another operational despatch, then this la del Its red to tha Fifth Direotorate they study the entire report and give ue (fourthritten evaluation of tha report. Zt aay eay that it was thoroughly prepared, or Incomplete, or lt wae wall prepared but leaked the following details whloh they re que at olarifioation on.
39. ctivity againet Paklatan la wore eotlve than against India beoauee the asant net In India la cn conservation end we know about all we need to know ebout India, but Pakistan is considered to be an enemy country, Just as Turkey and Iran are* a* there et the Centre Colonel FuTOVSKlI end TOIXXTMIKV were Bitting on Iran, Since then VOLKODAIKV has been sent to the Academy end FUKOVSKIT to TEHERAN.
Sat On Pakletan they have also all details on every eouree of water /supply end every dam and reservoir. This le both for flooding purposes and for contamination. Every tunnel In every country Ib known to the Fifth
.Directorate. Of course they also know about all industrial centres whloh contributellltary effort. They make analyses of how destruction of these would affect the military potential. Such strategic data are compiled end delivered to the First Directorate (Operations of the Generalll other targets, however, sre kept in GRU for action by clandestine mean* such aa contamination, assassination, sabotage, etc. The only information given to the General Staff la that which can be used by combat arms of ths armed foroee, including Navy and Aviation. The other targets would be aoted egalnet by agent groups organised on the territory of the USSR ss well aeroups within the target country. Theee latter Include Illegal* as well as other agents.
*
G.i In order to obtain thle data and fulfill the mission, le the Indian Coanunlat Party Involved in such operations, either Independently or under oontrol of GRO 7 They axe certainly ueed and under the direotlon of GRU offlcera who are ln oover positions there. In other words you have GRU offlcera under oover ln these countries who would rake contact with local Coawajnlet Party leaders and levy adssicns upon them. That ia exaotly right. Of oourae our allltary people do not neat Oommunlats openly, although they asy shake hands with them at receptions. Only GRU offlcera under cover do thle end that la why the etreee le to have more and more GRU people under oover,
G.i Ie India usedase for operating against Pakistan or vioo-verea 7 And ere Communists ueed for this too 7 Of course they are snd they operate from there against Iran too. This lahird country agent operation, which le very ocaxmm.
G. i that would you aay ln the India, Paktatan, Ceylon area le the main GRU mission priority of such oatogorieo as espionage, die information, political action, eabotage, support of lllegale or eny other aotion 7 In the first plaoe all missions of all categories are assigned almultaneouely and their execution ie done ln proportion to tha ability to fulfill them. If this were not eoupplementary sdeelon not earlier mentioned were levied, the Resident could simply say "shy did you not request thathance to get that before". Therefore mission, emanating froa all Direct era tee, such aa the Fifth, the First end the Information Direotorate are all set out Do you mean then that there la no first priority mission 7 Ro. Thereirst priority mission. The firat priority la always tr tho creation 1 of an agent net snd for lte expansion. Isecond No. After this ell ere assigned together and ara at the same level. The Resident knoaa everything thst Is assignedear, but tha individual esse officer will be given adssicns of varying types end number depending on hie own capabilities and tho accessibility of his agent to targete of intelligence value. Therefore the first priority is always on the creation
and/
and expansion of an agent net end ell funds are given to thia priority in the first instance. All other missions are on the sane level and are aeoondary. Many of the secondary missions ao called are accomplished by opportunity, for example, one souroe may be able to provide an answer to one requirement but not another.
G.i What sas the degree of KGB activity in those countries and what are their prime intelllgenoe missions ? The KGB are concerned of oouree with recruiting agenta in political Intelllgenoe, the obtaining of polltioal information and in economic intelligence. And on occasion they would get military information but they would keep thla for themselves so that they would get credit for it at Headquarters. They might tell us about it after they had already Bent the report in to Headquarters. There were very many of them there and of course there are very many of them there now. More than GRU officers in number ? S, t Yes. Much more than we. In about what About two to one. Por example in our own eontnittee now we have about seven people and they have ebout fifteen. How was it in en count it right up. There was I, GiniN, YEMELYANOV, GUR'YEV, ISAYEV and CHICHERIN. Thia would make alx active operational oaeam not counting node-clerks and other aesiatanta. They had YERZIN aa Chief, PEDOROV and VOSKOBOY,econd Secretary and another Second Secretary, two Third Secretaries and three operational chauffeurs who were case officers, whereas ws had only one, TXPTSOV. Therereat mob of them in ISTANBUL, the First Secretary was the Chief and they had all Idnda of KGB officers under Torgprodatvo oover. Some of them had the Job of watching other Soviets, whereas tha other section were engaged in active intelligence work, recruiting agents, etc. They were about two to one there and herein PARIS aa NEDORUB told me at the Exhibition, the plaoe is full ofne can't turn around to spit without hitting one.
G*i What ware your GRU table of organiaationa strengths in Pakistan and India ? 4as first considered for asaignment to Pakistan there were only five of ua. Forhile there were only three in Pakistan under DUBROVTN, the Military Attache. All he hadhauffeur and en
Interpreter /
AT"
lnterpreter. To this ho was given two CPU officers under cover and that was all. Later the Military Attache, who was tho Resident aleo had two assistants,ut he also had fire GRU offlcera under cover. The reason why they have more under oover now le because now they havo GVP representatives there snd TASS
representatives, and also sore Torgpredetvo sum. Are they ell. In Ho. There are only two ln KARACHI. When the Government decided to setow ospitel in the mountains two went there end other Torgpredetvo nan travel throughout the land from oity to olty. How do you cover Eaet By souring frequent TDTs there. There le quite an agent net there and others under develc-pment. entioned two agents there.
G.t How about India 7 Aren't you fairly scattered there 7 Tea.
They sre ln three cities theret NEs" DELHI, CALCUTTA and BOMBAY. They all travel baolc and forth extensively. How many people did you eay GRU had in India 7 At the time they were planning to Bend me there, let ma count themhere were ten operational case offlcera In India ando not count oode-olerka end other personnel.
elieve thia completes the list of que atave. then
shall we meet next time, the day after tomorrow end then on. i The next tlae we'll cover completely ell your EEXe and priorities and your operational plan end on Saturday you will recite them book to ue and we will correct them and then we will Juot relax. ractise with the radio transmitter again 7 Ho. That will not be necessary beoauee when it le ready to be given to you it willoeiplete description of all the parte and ell prooedurea InRuasian aa wall ee photographs of all the parte and labels pointing to them in Paiealan. ive you my word that ln my life inave stselotely ao free time ln the evening to do any additional work such ae studying English to improve it. a Just too tired after my daily grind. My oover Job requires eo such effort. o not need to fuse with delegations ae much ae before thanks to my newust supervise other osse offloara ln their arrangements for taking around all kinds of foreign delegations. lwaya attend reoeptlona. Tour work on the Committee line la pretty complete now ie it not 7 Tee. That le alright
and /
an certainly give them enough material to confuse then arid supplement that with all kinds of gifts. Of course others also bring back gifts but It
Is all little Junk, excepthief like GVISHIANI si ways gets worthwhile gifte. lways bring better gifts than tho others.
was told that he oould arrange hia trip to VERSAILLES with
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