Subject was tiot atoint whichat the end of tho Solfcrino footbi-it'.ic at IS,ours hy Roger and Harold. The partyti'j a'-curs, Tho pick-up was covered by Iiichaol and it wan- off "itaincidents,
2. Please let bo hava all dcccvierita whioh should beso thai yeu can have the ori^ir.tls back boforo 'iho end of Vo have arrangcC -r> haw theagave his* list oi" delicto csndidcSea out of which aco crrivins in PARIS- Thisist of fear sheets including nKios. The others tree Ms ORB Administrative Travel illich people cn the list areteal: out hie rctes lthough wo arewithound cutit hichoucilr.-ra"olo Interest to thea endto us. iewzvo done in thisI havaj "osvsreaycurs on thecf nr/ arrivalent -co the Soviet Eabassy. as ail by thi residentiior Ivan CKESSDEYSV whoreturned renuty. _ He knowsa.tine sir.oc h.nda.teudcr-is fcrf,,h,thasas a. Oolcnol than. Iat his affableevcnl cu'-'les had ccroe in about or/
arrival andolayyi byisa application. Eo said that ho wanted to tslh to at Isnsth later but that ho waso heve anotirvj with his case office rstero er..'! ho wintil to participate ot this- tooting. 3oiddcemo ray opinion on various matters at this
APPROVED FOR RELEASE
JJ.HAR
meetingepliedould, be glad, to bo as helpful ttp Ito bo. He added thatave ooaio for tnentyefive daysbo nodor hie ouricdiotion, in addition to rosalvir^'my ownwculd lilsc ro to holp'
i* is on tbe sooond floor of tho Embassy
Vallding. Qfly tho Military Intelliaeacs people of CSD axe on the secondtrategicnd all of tho recos have been chockod out. Secret matters may be discussedc;pt VtaA names, datas etc. arc not to bo mentioned. cnodiatoly saw two officers thsro withad studied at. and who graduated "ith me Tho Military Attache wto was introduced to ma was surprisingly Gen. liior SGKOLOY who tas th; forcer Cbiof of the Porcign Relations ection Formerly Gen. Kiior Hichal ItlSLOV was the Military Attache hero end ho lahe Chief of tho Foreign Relations Sootlon In IDBOCW,eplaced himonthalf. Tho Haval Attache is also bore, whoaptain 1st Rank ond who was the. Assistant Naval Attaoho Sr. Turkeyan there. He is Vladimir. There ere xicy operational case officers under coverust spot every-r hero in TAKES. ill also apOt all UB officers, ofiave already noticed TTa sat ato ting fromho first deputy to tho Resident, Igor Alokaondrovich AN'ANXEValso
thoro. Hc is undor cover. The other deputy is actually second deputy KJJCrtfAVTS3y, tho Counsellor, who is ccr.ccmed with science and technologyat two. as introducedStJ Headquarters officer on TOY in PARIS Qho would particlpato in the meeting. Tho topic of the meoting waa to review tho aiosiono of GRU to the Rezidentura in Franco or> tho acquisition oforiol camples and data (Cobyvar.iya voe-aykh obrastaov vo Prcntaii). Those military aaraplos consist of woepons end documents on their technology. Then every
vary intolligent canj for cxanplQ, when ono case officer reported that ho had assigned his agon- the mission of obtaining two weapons out pi hio total mission of fourteen for fear of oomprondsina .himself.-toy Hid;'; agent, OHEREDSYEV called tho casoool, anying that hs hadalready compromised himself hy ro quo sting the too weapona (orhereof) and had ho given tho agent tbo entire fourteen itoms, possibly by new corns- of theso items could have been procured instoad of raiting for the procurement of the two requested and holding back the other twelvethe first two were obtained. Tho officers are afraid of him particularly since ha hao been promoted to General. Previously he had been the Chiefapravlenic and lator tho deputy to XCN0VAIOV, tho Directorate Chief in GRU.
he Oonuruniatj era sitting all around and havem suro that thoy aro bringing great harm to our mutualwork and arc hurting Do GiDTIE's dosostio end foreign policy. ; ' j
S.i Tho missions to obtain cilitcry weapona and matorial in Pranoa by tha Razidontura is duplicated in the Residenturas of all oapitallat countries. Tbe emphasis horo is not co much on Prench militaryt. and British armament. Im the list of 'itccaf hey know the nomar-clature oZ all latost itom3 of equipment and weapons. Thoy could cily knew this cue to core- leak out. f tho items lietoc were. manufaoturo but these overlapped military
oouipr.ent eutolly used by imoracans, Prench andGermans, in short ;
'ii'
all NATO .'!
LO^ CJSSRSSraV sold that the Rezidentura inA.given them tba loaCs regarding the weapons which woro tho basis for the/'" missions in Franco. Oae item was the wail. mortar which"ary well developed system for targotting (tsontrirovanyat can be well orientated along three pianos. Tho mission is to obtain the mortar itcolf or, if that is not possible, its photograph and full
*
^
technical data. Another nission was to Obtain. WO1 rifle and tlio cartridges for this rifle. They also wantod tho latest nod els of the very. ond British goa masks, thay are particularly interested in tho filtering substanoss whichery effective adsorbtion cunlity. Specifically thoy are concerned withelieve is technically called tba breathing casaotto in which the filtering segments are placed. reat priority ia plaoed onho accrets for antl-oorrosivo treatment of submarines ond the submerged portions of Kaval vaceols. Thisepeat mission since they have "boon after thisong tlmo. Thiohemical typo mission and our vessels require much more froqjont day-dock repair than tbo NATOvessels. Then there rero twenty to traaty-firo detailed missions
involving various items in eloctrcnio technology applicable in rocketry. Thoy or. interested ln all types of electronic units and assembliesnglish or French manufacture, that aro uaod in radio, radar, aaaurirg instrunantc and guidar.ee systems. Sketohos and diagrams ore particularly dosircd. Another item. rocket launched froa aircraft which is capablo of or eating atsosphorio disturbances against radar action. Apparently those rockets emanate acme olectro-magnetio waves which causa this disturbances. This servos to jam enemy radar booms. Tho trayplainod it was that after firing thia inotrumsnt depeehda slowlyarachute and jama radio oni radar.
S.: niversal mission for all Rssidcnturas, but particularly hero in France is to visit all chemical factories possible to determine tha composition of tbe new solid fuel for rookots which has been developed by tho French. Thoy aay that the Preach already have hundreds of solid IVal cartridges whloh aro cuitabic for firing rookots. Tho French are considered to bo world lo odors in this field. Another requirement lo to obtain all possible data on heat resistant stools. In this connection I. found cut that tho nimonio series havs been developed. ard not in Zegland. however, it acems that they aro working together with tho
British in tho aovolopmcnt of
heat rcaiatant stools. In additionata, on tho components of liquid fuelswore alsotrfki ccanwiaod tho baalo items listed as missions and each or^e'offxear had:'-
considerable number of missions to fulfil. But froa theeard by tho individual case officersan passionsoon accomplished and no case officer had fully accxBnpliahed allissions. Anotherorgot to mention was the acquisition .ofolcctronic Kaval depthnstruments. These were*nufaoturc. IHssicns regarding documentation consistod of teohnloal data on stool production, rod:ct fuel produotion and all documentary data covering tho item3 liotod above. Those roissions for the obtaining of doouaonts were also distributed byo his caso officers.
12. Hoy cany caso officers wera present?
Thero wcro tan officers prosent yesterday butworo not tho whola contingent. Usxiy ware not permitted to attend. Lot rao see,was there, his Deputy AIMNYEV, tho iulitary Attaoha' SOKOIOV, tho Naval Attacheo has been horo maybe four orfivecail Kus'cichoRU officer.who was previouslySVA end ho was tranofcrred horo with his wifo and two children; ho is in ths technical group where thcro aro also two KpB officers. Therefive other officers prosentill identifyfor you from photographs whan you show thera to mo. lso visited, tho individual offices of the other GRU men who wore not at this meeting and new several of thorn ana greeted them, for example, CRIGORITSV, Valentin, Captain 2nd Rank, who had studied at the ISA as my classmate. Ho works.V. sked one of the fiveid not name toable totatingad arrived safely. ummary of this mooting all officers atated that thoy had assigned all of their missions for execution to their agonts. Theyergo number of agents and,entioned before, thoy are greatly helped by tho Communists hora.e
A
15^ After thepoke to the Kczident ana hisnd detailed ny mission. aiaill try to find soma new* aoejjaintances by vis3 tho Soviet Sxhibition and using; tho'ave mat in VDSOOlf at tho French Exhibition; ontact prove to bo of Interest to thoould turn, himentionedad the mission of obtain ins some technical data - nd to find dead drops. The Resident said that they had cany dead drops in EtftlS andas not to waste my time here but when ny itinerary for travol through Franca would be eotebliohed, then the Resident would tell mo in what towns dead drops would bo desirable. He oven offered ms an operational car and ohcuffcur for my trip-thxeuch Franco.
S.: At theas asked to speakold them of what items were purchased at the French ILrrpocition The purchasing commission was tha same one that had been to LONDON and at tho French Ez^oosition they purchased, itemsort roubles. Wo purohasod much of the electronic equipment which was ahovm there and for" GRU corrida rsblo optical ecuipmaat was purchasea. Thora wore two officers from tho GRU in this commission. One was Gen. ltaior of Engineers who worla in thecn Directorate, ViEOTSICiy, and there was another" Colcnel from tha Information Dirootoratc in the Oceraission. For GRU they purchased automatic pilots which can operate in the far north, electronic equipsent and optical equipment. Tho one who checkedSI "'
authorised thiaurchase was GVlSHTASI'seputy
-i-
of XHHJSKaCV'sember of the Presidium KOSYGIN. lsoof the items they had listed, GRU considered tofar.co,as briefed on this prior to my departure aad Itho eynposium to bo held at OXFORD on paper production* ICHEtEDilTSV's statejaenfi that duplicate samples oreif it has been reportedertain item had already been in another,
15. as very ploosc with mo and waa mosta gavo ms French cigarettes and eaid that operational funds, which I
. . /nod
haa not been givenare availablo at any tine shouldto entertain cnyono. he escorted mo to tha door, asked meack any timaant to dinner with ANANYEV andhoro thoyining room, near the Eois
Boulogne. Afterested and-wont out with HXifflS endery nice tino.
f^^f Do they know that WTHHB ia
S. i Ho. Lot us talk about this now. roposal whiohhink will simplify things for us considerably. let ma finish first describing circumstances leading up to this proposal. ent .to tho Embassy again,ent to tho Exposition'with SOLOVTEV by metro,
* bseause he wanted to show rae how the motro runs. There SOlOvYEV introduced ma to the deputy director of the Exhibition. The-Direotorlosn. man fromVD but tha Dcwuty is our man from GRU. His namo ia Laonid Vac oily jvicholonel of GRU, unaor RCGOV like myself, who works under cover of !JVD. Ito himhort while and ho oaid that on important delegation would be ccroingr fc. that afternoon andloaso return at that tins. ad lunch with tfYHKEant tack tohibition. poke to him about' ny missic-ashatishman who has close ties irtth thond who had been at tho Praach ExhibitionCOiTossibly come to the Soviet Exhibition in PARIS for two or threedded that this man has many contacts with firas end is planning to-obile exhibition.old you that nTHKS" hid mentioned thi3 whom ho was at tho Cc-rmittco in KOSOOff, and there isecord of this discussion tharo. TURNS also officially stated in the Committee that ho would cone to PARIS for two or threehis ia also on record. Therefore it would be very good if WINHE would go td* the Exhibition for two or three day3. He should not go off to BEIGRADE on Tuesday, la about ton days tho Exlllbition will close and after that wa do not need WIHKE bora at all. It is going to oloso on tho 3rd of.
.
oven como to tho Esibasay to ask for moan
simply moot him at tho Exhibition. In thatd.ll tell tho .
Eabossy that tho representative of many Brltlah firms'who has close
contaot with our Cenraittoo has arrived hero and inan say
that QTJOS haa prcoisod to bring ms soae worthwhile cVocumentary
material. Thia would be most plausible and in ny view very correct*
Of course if you eay no,SNE can goGRADS, but pleaae
consider this. Itact that psoplo oomo to thia Exhibition from
many countries, end WYNNE did say at tho Committoo that ho would
hero. NNE nt thoould toko himrivate
office with rSSREV, pour him out operational wine and hs can aay that he
haa broughtaokago of oomo material. Thia mateill deliver
to tho Embassy. n Just givingough plan and you can arrange
tho details as you seo fit. But this would simplify our work and be
vary good for
17* lready mot oao bu3inescHan through NSiEEVj ave hie'
camo written down in my notebook which ia In my ooathe man I
matBST is tercelrom the Society of Franco- 1
Russian Friendship. Ka apscko English, though poorly. He even
criticised tba aavblbition, ho asked mo why thoro were certain teohnical
itena there which oould bo of interest to apeolalists only and nothing
from ths country itself. Thoro is nothing'from Soviet life hero.
BUBf told mo today that thoro everywhere, no natter in what
direction one spits. tfaoye aro in tho ot-nds, amongst the interpreters '
and tho guides. That'save on the Exhibition end with respect $o
gain repeat that if ho was to work with mo for two days it would
be vory good for us anduld also strengthen WYNNE'a position with
tho Coiaittcoould reportet WYNNE hero and that he
brought no something.
18. Tomorrowm going dirootly to the Exhibition with Ivan Favlovich KUDRYAVTSEV, tho Deputy for Soionco ond Technology,
because ono of our Uinistero inell ova from tho inistry of tho River Fleot. In general up to the tioo Of thef theill bo going there and to the Embassy ovor/ day and afterillhort trip through Prance. ould pick coco thing up either directly along the line of my mission or boko thing similar to theentioned earlier. Some filter matorial fOr. tho gas mask oven if it isn't tho real thing,helloed your support in those thingo because it will help me attain
greater stature andill bo sent out more often on Ths problem of my room has not yet been solved. What haa happened ia that thoy movod me cut of ny roan to another one in the acme hotol with the price Just tho aamo. (it was decided that WYNNE wOuld' gotoom at tho Palais d'Oraay and movo subject intooom ia available. The pries thorerancs per day.) llava to Vfe have lots of questions. Let's begin with the clarification of the information you CftVO ua tbo day before Yes, and please let mo habe cy osn reforcnoo care is the meat important question. At tbe very beginning, of your report you used tha expression "if necessary XnRUShCHEV will strike
at tho tias of ths signing of, tho Poace Treaty. By whom was thia specific utatoment made and what wero tha ciixjuastances?
S.: This expression was not told to mo by only One person. This oonoopt was exprosEod to ma bynd alao by POZOVNTC Sndnd inave heard in tho Cenoral Staff from those who are in a
sf - .
position to know and withavo friendly relations the aamoia all tied up with tho generaleported that if youBtaLXK then things will bo quiet againearearuntil KHRUSfEHEV starts yolling again that we have achieved athat KENNEDY had been
G.: what was tho context of tho circtwstanceo when thia was aaid?
S.J Specifically BUZINOV csked msoublos with which
to got aooo supplies of butter and sugar because ho felt that things would bo Tory bad in October. aked hira if ho wero not being panicky. Ho onld "No. m on old noldiereeling fromeo, ruvl you must through your channels, hoir difficult things can bo In, October. ave boon running fromplr.ee to snothor and sending offlcora to all kinds of banes wJiorp preparations to the point of combat roodlnoao ore being trade. now that if the Vest begins to fire' after tho Peace Treaty wo swot bo ready to ntrikeard blow and wo do not hare sufficient reserves of roeketa.
,7hat specified ly doca KHTMSfCIEV lack to follow through an attaak on tho West?
S.i o doeo not havo sufficient number of atomic warheado. Thoy publiohod in our preen thet wo0 atomio weaponn Of varioua yleldo andools bcliovo thin; thoy have various slse yields, buthey ere etill making thea. Similarly, although the2 rockets havo been found to bo ratiofrctory ond ore being mess produced,lf lo etill not in aerial production. -ST^V G. I Khat olee does ha lock?
S.i Trained peraoniKrI cadres, Sovoral years more oreit not significant totu'lonts at one time at or.oDZKRZinWSKIx' Academyaeetiit*c? And those can bo seen goingotudioo ovory ,
G.l Airy .other fundareiitnlow about There arc Insufficient jodmrlneo. However, thoy doannounced plan for attacimitg the United States and Inland using.'
ICBUe, submarines and aviation. This was announced at the receptionhimself, and ho also mentioned that thoyuclearone
G.t And who told you opooifioally about each of tho
S.I old me many tlmoo about oil thoser
-
have Kcniior.ecl aborra. On thin I
hat you havo just answered would answer itemfsince ycu just said that KHRUSHCHEV spoke of this at theyou roferrcd*
S.: That is correct. lso forgot to mention that there ialack of porfootod electronic guidanes systems. There has beenQuantity of rookots developed and with thi3 small amount, .la attempting to scare us. However this maniac before the of his life may desire to make this tremendous attack and that isall the Russian people are afraid of and that is why Ithe that it would be worth while to assassinate him. * ear or twoov; leader emerges and there wouldbig fight for control of power. Tha most outstanding candidatesmartest, is MIKOYAN, who ia still en old Leninist. swill not compete, KOZLOV and BREZHNEV are comploto fools and thesedon't like IElKOYAN since thsy arc stooges of KESUSB3HEV1. not movs up CHURAYEV oithor, heecond rate man and he id iUJ isears of ago and he almost diedust tell you
S.j lest Xay lotas in LONDONas at the MayParade amievere cold and on the 2nd May there was
serious mino cavo-in at KRIVOI-ROG and many miners were killed and :
!
KHRUSHOEEV ordered CHURAYEV to go there personally to
t *
disaster, since hohief in the RPSPR. Siolc or not CHURAYEV ho was taken back from there with extreme pneumonia. Ee almostand ho was practically deed clinicallyedicalin giving him sufficient transfusions to bring him back CHURAYEV related, all this at the birthday
25- On these genoril cooarcioca. in October what components offorces will
3.; idn't make this sufficiently clear in my report.
/in
In those gonoral manoeuvres there iainglo unit vrhich will not '
have Its wartime nllitary mission to accompli ah. All will participate
i":
ock war will bo declared. va of whore one Site inhoadquarters, all elements of troop deploymont per phasesto. will he undergone, even to the point of establishing: laundries, and field'
G.: And will those exorcisoa bo done as fully aa you aay by
S.i Yes, Just as completely. Of oourso, firing willestricted or simulated ond atomic bursts will bo simulated also, but VAHETtTSOV andold mo that there will also be rooket firing exercises. These may bo done in tho KAPUSTlN-foR area or in some isolated place. Thia exercise Is to train tho rocket crews in target aiming. Although thoro will notenera! mobilisation, thia mass deployment of the entire standing army aa it.passes through its manoeuvre pfaasoe will put It into combat readiness to the extent of the forcea now under arms. Tho Air Pores iild all services will participate and offensive as well as defensive phases will be schsduled. orgot to mention anotherll forms of sigaal ocnmiuniaation vill be intensively used to train those units properly.
O.: Piecso errplaia bow many prominont oommandors suchLLTjIWOVSKX and VAP.ECTSOV, who will be dologatos to tho Party Congreoa can attend both the Congreoa and be at the manoeuvres.
S.: Thia is very simple. yself participated at thoeeting in the Kremlin whens ouutcd. KHRUSTDHB? and thonieterpscch end in half an hour they left the Assembly which continued to make other speeches end ohoarod KHRUSHChEV's policy ail day long, herefor* at this Party Congress they will liaten topening speech which will bo the programoo for the Congress, and go. -Tho rest of the delegates will make speeohes for seven to ton daya. Tho big peoplo will not attend discussions by do legates froa kolkhozes.
Ahey
Thoy will only bo proaont at tho main presentation of tho; programmendI also hoard from POZOVNTT that during tho Party -Congressthejstssi for the defence of ttSSCCW will bo puttrict combat alert.
27. 1 How about China?
3.: China willoparato role in this. Thoy willpossible hostile direction of American attack froa Japan. also be represented at tho Congress but it lo still notKAO TSS TUNG Mil come pornonelly or not. They very touohhave him come toopularity gesture for thoind out I'll report all this to youropose topersonal visit -on
S.i ould like touestion at this timeay.
G.: Go ahead.
8.: avd been thir-iingong time that it wouldroat advantago for ua tonail local conflict with tho Soviets in some remote area, something lilw tho Finnish War or tho oonfllat in the Far East in tho past. iajSJSIChiV doos not want this. It should he demoactrated that ICHRDSTCSEV i3 the eole proponent of nuclear warfare and the only warmonger amongst all nations. He sayaocalould doveiopuolear war. This is not trueonflict using conventional weapons in Korea or Vietnam could bo mode. onflict was created cn tha borders of Iran or Pakistan or Turkey andthere Vas enough provocation for this, by the Americans and British*oviet Amy group of clmost fifteen divisions wore to be deployed in -C
this direction,CO men, and both sides;
" -
conventional vacnona, you would bo suroriscd to soo how many maao desertions by offiooraondo*ildjtake_place_from tho Soviet Army to your cldo. Then this svolooh would see himself how weak his position'nd ho would havo to cease all hostilities topctch up his Aray. The Army today is seething, KHRUSiEKIV has abused it severely by his extensive
dischargos in the past, which is somothing that STALIN did not do. .
.
KBRUSICHEV lo called "the abuser of tho Our ieaders should .
recognise how much dissatisfaction there is'amongst the Officers of Of oourso it io not for ua, particularly for too, toaotion, visor people will do thie and it ia not oven our - on-ion theseeel youths extent of tho dissatisfaction in tha Soviot Amy. today the croen atoaio nOTLSR and with tho help of hisoirpport Ida hs wants toorld conflict so that prior to bisas he has said, "Ibury..
G,: ll you explain very carefully this very important statomsnt. you made. You stated that on tha 8th September thoroucloar detonationockotelivery meansarhead0 hilo terns. Do you realise that this0 tons oregatons?
S.i 0e3 your kilo Areas.
G.; That cakes censo because that would bo l6 kilotons.
i t
S.i Yes, of course, that'sad in mind.
G,t Then, will yeu toll ma why was it specificallyilotons, oince usually your terms referto.
S.i fas, that ia truo, thoy usually go by fives but evidentlyinvented this particular yield end that is what they tested, butdo not have any. : .
30. Havo you ever hoard ovan from rumours nhat ia the largest- Soviet nuclear weapon in THT
S.j ava heard of astronomical figurea and it was announced that thereegatonydrogen boob oould produce; o not believe that thoy have tested this yet and thoy aro still working on it. ovor mentioned this, nor did any other parson withave talked.
a. s. B.
2 end4 roolcets now VARENTSOV* stbey ore VARSKTSOV-s
let usittle further into this one. In VAREKTSOV's
and these rockots must have been well advanced oo VARENTSOV must have nown that they were to be produced. Docs ho know if there has been any change in tho aubordinotlon of missile oontrol during this periody and September? (O. Translates)
S.i This'is entirely possible. And it is possible that they taveortion ofrocketa to VARENTSOV.
J.I Eoit does ha know that2 andA are VARENTSOV's?
H. l Evon though VARENTSOV went to thoir testing ground ho might have gone there es an observer.
S.: Chan VARENTSOV went to KAFCSTIN TaR for the rocket testa he went thoro to accept thoa into his cccrsand from industry. Ho would not have gone thoro if thoy woro not his rocketa. Eb went thoro undorirective of the General Staff and of tbo Ministry of Dofonce.
C: Did VARENTSOV tell you this?
S.: Tea, ho said 'I cm going to raPUSTTK ToR" and at the same
tima BUZEJOV told rae that thoro are such reelects.
32. But4 ia still in tho strategic range ainco it can0 Kilometres withtcaic warhead and much furtheronventiontl warhead. Thereforo it can't boactical weapon.
S. 1 But nono of uo knevr thatfc. will not bo allotted to ISOSitJENKO to fulfil bia missions end also tco fulfiln aialtion itery closely kait ovor-all commend, both are under governmental control end particularlyudgetary sense end if in tho earlier otagea VARENTSOV's rockot3reater range, lalSKALENKO
,
would havo turned ovor soma of his rockets for VASENTSCV's Unit*
launch. Tho too com-nanis oro very closely co-ordinatod, and itto bo this way and in case of war there wouldot
rookots which would bo turned over from ono oommand to the
Thia was foreseen ond the oorrranda are well controlled cant rally.
G.l Ia it not trueong rango rooket suoh as4 .uaed by VAKENTSOV at shortor ranges. fl
S.s Of couroo it can. Any rocket can be fired atthin itsbut it is efficient toocket at Itarange. It would not be efficient to useargodloawtre range to firehousand kilometres
whenl could do this. However if there arelsooket would ba used.
33- But he did not aay that VAKShTSOV ot any timestated that ho io taking over command of2.
S.i No there was no occasion for VARENTSOV to say this td me inthoso terms directly. He only mentioned that ho looked this and that end that ttflMMBP has this and that, but4 may be allocated to both VAKENTSOVTFJI23GB by tho High Command. eported ton LONDON that theroendency to unify both commands.
H.I Has he hoard any mors about this unification for single " .
since bo last told ua about it ia ICKD0N7 (G. translates)
onversation about this'with BUZEJOV only:.recently. UZINOV decs rot wish to leave yARKTSOVa oomxand and heew working aa tho Deputy to the Chief of an OXDEL. Ho said that if ARENTSOV becomes the ovar-nll unified commandor his Adjutant wouldCajor-Gonoral's alot and BUZISOV io hoping for thia since ho hasolor-olong time. Hs hopes that this unification will takeuloklyhat ho can bo with VARENTSOV andt this time tho General Staff oor-siders that this oxtanaivo reorgani cation is difficult to do when tha present political situation is so critical.
/if. :"
If thoroelief of thia tension they would push through this- *organisation in throe or four months. BUZDIOV taows the situation' bocauso he is very close to it and they are not doing thia now because of the present situation. However, tho concept has not been rejected,or haa it been considered incorrect and it will undoubtedly go through. In caaa of war now both cor-wanca will bo very olosely coordinated. Jit. As you laiow VARENTSOVelegate to the Congreoa and will be nominatedandidate for* tho Central Committee. e oan't toll what will happen but ha is in good standing. The Minister oartoto his birthday party, and he didn't go thora because he loves VARENTSOV but it was probably suggested by tho Central Committee, of which , IlALIircvSXIomber. CKORAYEV, howovor, camo of his own free will.
*
In tho past VARENTSOV had calledool and from ny own
id not think ho was very bright and whan we have time I
'"*j
"ill toll you more about himhat ia, how he behaved at this
party. Now VARsTOTSOV io boing keptrominent role. Thoy msde
hiof Marshal, gave him tho Ordsr of Lenin and tha Uinister camo
to his party; thia is rare for tho Minister to do particularly as ho
had to go to LVOV tha next day. Sioidor-tally to this birthdayjjjj*
ZAKHAROV, tho Chief of Staff, PISSKH, CHUXKOV, the new Chief of Civil
, tut none of them wore in MOSCOW :
Defence and ZEXuTOV were also invited on that day.
G.i Wasn't Yes, he sea,ontion Who told you that tho atccaio warheads were all ready at the launching site?
S.t That was EUZINOV. Andaid this also, he toldo SOZOVNyy. and to mo.
hat's ell right for NOVAXA 2XMIXA whore they are doing tho -acting, but how do you know thatomio warheads were delivered to those other places such as NORILSK end Frcnts-Josof Land.
S.i now that there woro atcnio warheads thorocany of floors Gfao wsro being sent for ono andduty to thoentioned because ths re wore otomio"
E.: Bet thing to determine Is whether these warheads were always at those bases or were thoy recently moved thoro.
S,: nderstand. Ihe atonic warheads were recently moved there from all of thoir specific storage areas wherever they eay have bean, because they were to bo plaoodoeition of combat reedlheeso suppsrt XRRUSESKSV's bclli&crant policy.
A short pause was mads to change tapes. ,
G.i Did Sergei Sorgelevioh by any chance mention the range jporsioa (tbe Vd) ofocket?
S.: No, he did notouldn't very well ask him, but it 'to ma that tho Vbetresore algnifioant figureio the lateral Is tho oonatant travel of TASSNTSOV's and lD3KALENK0'e yto tho missileecant development or havobeen cent
S.: Thoy have beer, always going thoro, even before. If thatnot tlienot have been killed. They era no* .
going to the testing of nuclear dotcnations delivered by rockets and hoy ara going more intensively ond frequently now.as insisted that the launching of rockets with atomlo warheads ahould.:.
; -'
bo accurately worked out as soon as possible. XJiRCShCfiEV evenhat theyko ir. inactions. Thoro fore both PTRSKK and SSKHOV havo been sent out and vhen ncoesacry VARENTSOV goes also, since there arc many cites at which teats are being made and many typea of roe'ojts to bo tested. Trips aro boing uado eontinuoualy by tho off-ccrs concerned. This intanclvo testinglear-cut examplehe preparodnoss ofavo mentioned.
G.: And thia io also truo for NORILSK end Tea, and to give jrn example VARENTSOV said ot his party Lf:
thatust returned from SVERDX.CVSK where ho 'viaitodill sendecantave of VARENTSOV. You will yourselves how tired he looks. Eut though he limps and moves around";
with difficulty, ho ia constantly flying aroundoung hoy oecause./
HIOTSEOIEV will havo it no other way -'Juot look at tho OKasrsle ot ho almost died. Thoy are all afraid of KHRUSHCHEV andbey his orders or thoy will loao all they have.
CHURAYBV brasged that
hoacha given to-hia0 roses growing thera, that is'. these parasites live on the workers* blood. apitalist:
H.i ould like to got thisho told'bin
when that atomic warheads were taken out of storage andtha missile bases? (G. translates)
the situation over BERLIN became more tense,the support of ths Central Committee ordered that those atomioba placedeady statuse delivered to thain order to support his political policy with force and KHRUSHCHEVthat we racy 3tri!ce hia first. 't'X'-v-
G.: Eut who told you
t
'
S.: First ofIK0VS then,as in Headquarterseard from tho various officers that thoy wero being sent out to determino accurately in praotlca how long it takes to move up ' atcmlo weapons to their proposed launching positions, hov/ long it takes to assemble and mount then into firing positions, what the reactions ofroops ars to the conceptloying such weapons; in short, all previou3 papor calculations were new being chocked out int tha same time thay arc bringing thomsolvooosition that if' atoxic weapons aro necossary to usa they will be in position to bo used, .
li.: Did ho hear about the movement of these warheads before thephase of atomic testing or tester this poriod?
S.i They were moved up before thia period and then tho decision was cade to test them by using rockets.
tO. 2ut thay aro not being tested at all missilehey have tooted then at NOVYA ZE5LYA but not at every missile slt< Kow Coos lt work out when thoy move these atomic warheads to the ;
various othor sites when they havo not already testedhoscorn illogical. It is logical to toko warheads to the places you are going to test them, but tha tasting is to got ready for? and there may bo minor adjustments on parts that theyefore. How oan they in fact then move them to these othorbo ready to ba fired when tboy hava not tasted thera? Thisontradiction.
3.: There is no contradiction. unfortunately wo do not
the co-ordinates of the sites whsre they ere being tested and therdincto3 of ths sites from which they, will bo launched* m sure that the testing io done at sites whioh have no relation to thoites that would be used in case of war. All wo know arereas but itact that these sites are not the some,ven on NOVAYA ZEiSLXA there are concealed storago areas andites all prepared for use in case of war but ths actual testing that, i'^^'i^Mi FfRSKIY is ru.-ining amy bo eaveral hundred kilometres away on NOVAYA ZEMLYAV ;
.
Thsrofora there is no
hi. sk the cuestion another way? Did ha know in advance';
m
that tho tests were going to fiiaj!
new in acA^.caTSv* waa flying off andorder was to bs closed four days before it happened. And!bout two weeks, ago that it vas iraS-spcnsablo for us td test nuclear':^;
warheads with rochets as tha delivery moans. nev, fhissd VivCKTSOV said "Rockets aunt be tooted because wo aro not sure hotf/ -hey villwithheads." now after WYNNE
H.: Row many days did it start af tor WYNNE left? It could onlybeen one or two ,
"
S.i Kb, it was about tho sane tics, let res look st LIN borcor waa closod onoiov/about tho 9thh of Augustanted to poaavia theop on liondey. Buteardannouncement that KOtSV bad flown off so tho news wao no Tho foot that it was naceosory to test nuoloaround out only aftor BTKNB left. ound it outwnok and it was clear then thata usingover tho BSRLUf status to an ercuso to untie his hr-ndr.'to nuolear tests. Obviouslyad knoon of this earlierhavo given this to nTKK3irst priority instead of onsidered putting the information in thecalling ondould havo observed to see if it ware pickedono hour and ifould have retrieved my massage from However, you warned aa not to do this unloaa.it ware agreat urgencyas not aura hew urgent
G.: Before ycu leave wo will ostablish for you clearly what is urgent and what is not.
42. Now on HOVAYA ZE-lVfA isolygon there or operational launch sitso, or both?
Itully ocj-'iypodsiteart ins es wellrea,avo heard our hecdeuartera that our people wsra disturbed bactuse thand Sritish have spotted our interest there since your eubxarino was in that area.
G.: Andis in chargo of running the tests?
S.i los, he is. Ee is tho first Deputy to'
H.: Row doss bo know that ho ia actually running the tests? This is Eonethinghinkot of definition. Pirst of alltago ho did say that apart from gJTWKTT running tho toats,ould bo represented thor*. Then surely thoro aro the atomlo peopleuld bo interested in tho atomic part of lt, thenis in over-all chargo?
8.: On KOVATA SBIDCfc rTSSSTZ is responsible for everything.
-
And tho footepresentative from ISSXAIEIKO is thorooproaontativoa froa the Central Cosraittee, tho Council of
*
end even from ccc-nitteos that we don't know the names of now,imply thoro en observers,oard the Defonco Kinds torimoolf aboutecorder so that you could Ji' liston youreolvos.
II.: If FYRSKTf is in charge of it, does this in foot moon that only testing of rockots as carriers for atomic warheads in tho tactical jjt range and not within the strategic range io being done and if testing s being done ln tha strategic range, where ia this being done?
S.: Thia question is not correct. What is being tested isction of ntialaa> weapona using rocketselivery means. What is important to dotormlns are the deficiencies end errors ln the rockets1 operations etc. etc. All aro present, those who will launch rocketsat great ranges and those who will use rockets at smaller rangea. ho plan to fire at shorter rangea may tanorrcw bomission to fire at greater ranges. The main thing is to nudes tha tests. It ia not important who in in charge, even though PiRSKH isepresentative, there ore other representatives thereKALENXO. Thoro is afterentralised control by tho Partyentralisation of the All Union military and political organisation. And therefore they decided to assign FfRSCff, first of all ho is anolonelepresentativehief Ihsrshal. Ho is an engineor by ccclignsundpecialist in atccrlc matters, and he is concerned with plants which produce fisiocoblo material. After ell theee plantsroduce atomic warheads ono day for YAREJ?TSOV and another day for laSKALEHICO, tho plants aro ths same. So tliay. awpointod PTR3KH ond thoro is nothing unusual about that, KOSKALENKO was not offendedhis at oil. AndKAISfKO personally had not boon thoro hla deputy could possibly bo of lower rank than VARENTSOV's rcpreaontative.
AjJ Rut does VAREKTSOV hava an ovor-all control, ainoa la bis deputy in deciding what ond how should bo tooted? i No, FTRSRIYompoaito order from allho will subnit his report to the Council of Ministers, the Contrei^the Kinister of Dafenco. Ho is there es areprosontotivc and enyono else oould havo boon appointed if hotoco
H.: Ho stated that FfRSKXY waa the export on atomican ho give us any information on FffiSXTr's background?
S.i on't mean that he is an atomlo expert aa such. Ho is an intelligent endell educated man. Ho understands.energy and equina-ant aa well. Ho is an engineer by education whereas -end VARSNTSGV ore not. FfESXir had been the Ccenander of il loryllitary mission in ROSTOV the North Caucasian Military He was also tho Cocpiandor of Artillory of an Army then hetho Deputy to VARSXTSOV. In thia way VARENTSOV was strongly ' by FfRSKTY bocruos he is an englnoor. FXRSKXTavedoficiencies, however, and VARENTSOV docs not got along with They Co not have close personal relations. Be does his workbut as an individual ho isntriguing, he wants to bsof Artillory and ho isof VARSNTSCV because he considers"toool in technical rattora. He istrong . ator. VAEShTSCV can operate cat tad artillory unitsfrom tho viewpoint of tochnology, FLISSXf ia far above that. Is this base cn NOTAYA ZE&UTA the most recent
t's censtruotion has boon goingong time. Someentioned the North Regions to you but at thatid not
G.l How about tho other bases such as NORILSK, VORKUTA and
S.; They wore aloo being preparedongnow that 1XRILSK ond VORKUTA wore closed to foroignera.- now this because a
/Canadian.
Canadian delegation carno to KOSCOiV on an cmchango' baaia with '. '/^
dolcgatioaa visiting tho for north, in order tof'*'
techniquco in vory cold climates. Thoy wanted to go to
wero refused permission, . There is even on article by CDINTSOV in7.
whichtcnsivoy nuwcroua engineer forcoo in tho far northro dosoribed. All kinds of urdorsround shelters and fortifications have bean constructed in the far north, particularly in the area of VORKUTA. All this underground work is done because of ita extreme cold temperaturem sura that there aro many other bases in the far north. ind out the locations of all the sitesan but in tho meantime you should oxpact that there arc many more there. Tho principle toeep in mind is that thoy arc building as many dispersed bases as possible avoiding large ccnccntratiore;,. Thcao areas are coins extensively
prepared aa launching aitoa fcr nuclear strikes. On the other hand from
tho defensive viewpoint thanks to dispersion and the isolated nature
SSli
tho country, littlo damage to installationa and personnel would result .'.
rcute for training his battalion, otaTU BUZINOV went there
.3
nd ho is visitingnow and when ha returns ho will tollabout !. "fl
G.s Before you stated that there wore two tank armies thorei No. Thaticundorstanding; id not soy thattoss tank armies thoro in thoir entirety. It is tho some Qoncept'*aid there are ton arsdeo deployed in "tho general .
of. Thoso ore echeloned throughout tho entire territories
adjacent to and reaching far back from. Thoy aro part ofFront commanded by Marshal XO-IEV. Soma forces oven lie intorritory. The tank armies ond other armies are also echeloned Thoir main elements may bo in; There aro lots of ' ccnccr.tratod in. andaid that there wero two
amies within the territory andhird one is.being moved int moans that their combat elements may be thoro but theirmay be far book in Poland or in tho Baltic area. To determineexactly we wouldap laying out the entire order of tattle.in order to ostimato the strength of tho forcos opposing us inwhich arc under KCN3V, we must consider that he had ninehis command and hot? he has.ten with the addition of the
n other words only portions of the armies ore aotually in the _; v
S.: Of course, endold mo that ths local population was not pleased to see largo Soviet troop units in their territory. For"'estimating purposes we should consider that there havo been two Soviet armies in. and not/ tho third haa been brought in. It ioentirely possible. divisions may be attached to these Kow with respect to'this battalion which is the experimental anti-missile battalion, where la this battalion actually located? .
S.; The fact that JCiRUCrCHEV said that there can be. ar is general convorsation p% the entire General Staff.cannot oaaaglo anyone out,'"'rt^v'.
f^^^ And who told you- about the delay in tho demobilisationT'"^
* y'-'
S.; This isZQfOVY He said this twice to me.
G.: Why ia hoosition to know
S.: Eecausolso has on organisational-mobilisation
otdol and thoy knev/ tho total personnel strength with respoct
S.: Tho In.ofcitu.te itcclf is in WSOCStelieve it is in the area of Bolr.'ovsltiy-Strcshnevoill find out the exact locationhe battalion, however, is looatodesting site, but whicho ot knc.7. It is not in thoarea, maybe it is in KAPUSTIN YaR* Herauestion regarding your item No. IA, cu about this?
artillery troopa and then someone auat have told
of the artillory trooos are involved with respect to tho whole of tho'^i'-*
'
bilisation dolay of
Another pause took place for the tape to hocTadaya tho KGB has again raised its head. One mist again'careful of what is said. This is another of XHRDSHCHBV'a strongpolicies; after ell, Juat look at tho stature of the heads that-.And ho is both the author and tho initiator of allthe whole world is now so;
the items about closing the BERLINho
told you about this and what ware the
.
August." Later BUZDTOV told oo tho same thing.ascall up"and tell you about tills in open text or to put it in* the
You mentioned that in KRZ?.ENCHUG there is thisls end
S.i Yes, and if you show mo my graduating class photograph I spot tho deputyer, Lisat.
G.t at use, arel battalions in
S.: isear area, thoy train there but if the brigade is needed it maye transferred to Germany; this ia . ,
< '
omearrison, and thereraining school there.'isrigsd;o not know its number end itecondunit which is in tho process of training, it may bs even
transferred to the Par East, to face
G.: That io very .
lease tell uo tho proper title and theof the other persons who wero atarty. Let us
take Gen. Polk. FOSOM, Gen.iSCKeV. and Prcfossor*
t VARENTSOV'aas invited together with_ and wo satable justro sitting bore together, withives. And POZCVNYY said "Don't talk about this, but we have prepared'hut the borders in BERLIN at six o'clock in the moi
8.: et us first take Gen. Polk. SAJ3ON0V. hs io tho former chief of staff of Artillory undor VAMSKTSOV,s KARIOPIIJj: is now. Tho Chief of Staff of GUKAJtF (GlavnOye ,'ti.Upravlonlyo Hco^nduyoshchego ArtiUoril) of the Ground Forces. Don't
i'
mix this organisation upU now called GRAU, GUKAHT ia tho
. il
h. too, w
dosionatioa of VAHBOTSOV's command. Today SAUSOKOV is tho Chief of. Faculty (Kathedra) ofHHOV AcadoEry which has Juated with tho Prunso /cadamy. He ia tho author Ofstudies; ho haa written many articles and he particlpatea in 'artillory manuals.* Ko io on outstandingpeolal toast to Mm. Esrcall bald man. Now Gen. Polk. FOMW of Artillery. Ko is rather ill these days. Ko is also an excellent artillory theoretician. Hia- ho is in this Council reviewing inventions, tho Chief Milwhich supervises tha work of other Nils. At onenow, was Chiefaculty in tho VOROSKILOV Academy, nO*FRUNZE Academy. At ene tirio ho toorominenti.i
ccmaandor during the war. Hjery close friend of Rod!onbecause at one tima thay both carved together in CHITA. are also -soil acpiointod and their two wives were also constantly *at the tablo at which thay eat. . ["
55- Now, Gen.. Ha is very ill and ho wishea ust remembered, tha deputy toXI ia Gen. Lieut.who alao cot VARZJrTSOV at. ths IJMH3RAD Railroadliim end inraadiatoly flow off together with DUZINOV to thean inspection trip. Hemall thin man. If ha didn't hivehe would probably have been invited to the party because VARENTSOVhopes and relianceKRESEN3ICR' and hopes that ona day hohia Chief ofj
Now as to Professor wriSHWliisil hb is about sixty yearsary proninentrofessoroctor'ofand he works on bacteriological weapons. VThon he made
toast ho saidnow Sorgai Sergoiovicli not es wall as the others
.
etly at XARIS3ADavo listened to everything said about him by Shoes who havo known him for decades andavo only known him for sevoralubsoribo fully to what has bean said about bisTreat man, but ih addition heost amtablo person ard thanks to his kindness anduest amongst you bora." Although tho profossor was not drinking too much ho did let it slip that for noma tima now ho had beon working on tho preparation of eartain artillery ohargoa for the Generals present. ll*JJ>'OvSJCfit when thia was eaid since the man^ obvJoualj^ wferrod to bacteriological charges for artillery and rochets. Ho said
specifically "Sergeilso load tho Items that yound firo.'1 lready told you about this SEUBttV "hoormer Deputy tond who ia now retired.
Ernlain more about ths GUXART.
S.: Pirtt of all rrdor thia Directorate all artillery schools and academies for ground, forces era under VARENTSOV through this dlrectoi-ato. Gen. LUut. KUFTfEV was tho Chief of the Upravlo-iye, but ha has booa retired. Non the Chief is Colonel LSBEDEV, who io tho Chiof of "Alitary Training ln CUKART. There is an intelligence seoiicn vxder Colcncl ZAIXO. Thoy havo an organ! oat ion planning section which worksrganisational mobiliaation section asl alsoaterial suppiyn. Thereechnical section, ex* there io an artillory KsAoSicl section. There is alao an oditorial sootion which formerly published tho Artillery Journal which ia no
longer being published, but thoyether publications to bo concerned
*K
G.t dnd undoubtedly thoyoracnnol section.
S.: Yoc, of ooune, and taay havo on administrative office.
C.: Eow about on oritionrecti on?
S.i io, they cculd not havo thia, that would bo under GRAU.
ot othor questions do ycu havo?
G.i cnont en! I* will get out tbo questions wo hove for
.
yoa to clarify baaed on your report to us 'ond August,passed through WYNNE. Harold will you hand me thethis subject, aa well aa his original no toe so that he can rdfer You certainly reaenbor your first report ofr22nd" August*.BERLIN situation. lthough events are moving fast endhas changed, plea so clarify the following.. *" Or. baslo matters nothing has changed! thoI addedrrived tho day before yesterday that the'of Iran will be linked to tliat of f '
59- To what cagrsa do satollito leaders know and
-
-lan? ard alao Include what tho Chineoo attitude is.,V Let us consider the Chinese ssparately and the'
aatollitea on tho other ktnd. as not able to produce the exacti-jj letter0 TSEof tho tlifforonoaa in views with.KhlrtJSfCKSy,
. tho letter has already been offloia]ly destroyed. ith roapeot to
satellites oxecot China they cost completely' agree with XHRDS1EHEV. ,
-
th every poop of IC-^USr^haTV's; float look at Hungary*
iv
FERENC and othora said something different on their own foot andjctct ctraigh- into tlu fcsafia of "LVDAS. Any one who saysthing different fromEV" deoldoa oriaremoved. rren GCC SZZA who atime attempted to runcourso of sortsov/ caksod down. All of thoses wishes, thoy oven make the oamo type Ofto iaprosB KtSTJoSCHEV*. The Chincso apparently independentSoviet Union still want to stand in tho forefront of tho Communist kxo TSE TOTS ;nd his cntira clique, stated that afterof STALIN tho influence of the Central Committee of tho Communistof. has bcsosio tfeaker. But the timeill tootho Chinese to seise tho position of tho vanguard of theeven though the population is three times that of theCoooiuniat countries. Fron the viewpoint of numbers, and maturitytho Party sense ae well as strong th and correct thinking
y.'
consider themselves higher, more intelligent and more correct 1ft thoir courao than that of KHRUSHCHEV. Of course the Chinese will"
anything negative sinoe therelood of gold, machinery and all other eupport going to China from us all the tins, and they will not disturb tho international position of Oonaiuniora. Certainly not ii openly oa TITO has done. Therefore KRUSHCHEViberal attitude towards China andUNGiberal attitude toward. They don't want to sharpen theirhere are many fundamental difforonooa botweon thorn that thoy hove spoken about and theso remain difforoncao of opinion as before
very little is said about China; Judging free tho reports in the .
papers one could assume that China does not exist. However, tahonovar? theroongress or any other international problem isthore is at leasto-called "observer" there frome'V always supports and approves of what has been aaid and obviously China -is closer to us than any non-Communiat country. ean by thia tho ; o-osllod vascdllating oountrios. Therefore, despiteK China must bo consido.-sd toirst ra.to friendeliable helper of. in any situation or difficulty. ifficult situation develops, China will not insist on itn own demands but will supportommon cause of Ccxxunism. To what dogrco and on what scale ia another matter; thiaroblem which docorves thinking about . But the
contradictions are not on critical as it may seem, each country ia going
along its own oourso and each ono thinly that itight course. China must always bo considered as the supporter of the Soviet Unionin terms of military support and in that sense it should' bo -aa any other satellite of. Ohina is notis rosily under our control although it la
considerably. However, theraroat deal in oonmon in tho policy;:'lv' of TITO end UAD TSS TUNG.
60. Prom whoa did you find ouS abouttatomonto which
'
ware cuotod aa what ho would sayigh level conference. Thia
-
Information was told by IMUUUHMUl to.KOReTToVSXIY hascontacts in the Control Committee of the Carauhist
And it was stated to him that if ths Western leaders goonference ith KHRUSHCHEV about the German problem, XERUSIEKEV will tako his own position on the German problem. And lot us look at thisiewpoint of actuality. What else that is new, can KHRUSHCHEV atato concerning the Cerman problem? All ha can say is "Verygreenot toeace treaty for another year" and this he does not want to do. But so far aa tho justification of hia position and his Viewsn tho German problem, there ia nothing mora that he oane hin-'said everything ebout it. Thorofore, he will tolas the position tbatonference on the German problem ccmea about but the conversations will also involve othor matters, thon he will discuss everything together. But if our leaders neet with him to diacuss only tha German problem toossible war over it and if Uesars. KENNEDY, MACIOLLAN and Da GAULLE state that thoy aro willing toertain flexibility, conoarning the Gorman problem, on cortoin matters and will* points end not others, this wouldrecedent for further consideration. And therefore thoy would ask SERUSiCHSV toertain suggestions and delay the signing of his paaco treaty until ovarythlng was resolved, "', hat lo where KHRUSHSHEV vould get up end leave the conferenco and sayhavomora to discuss." And this wouldcarploto repetitioniS where lir.at with This camo from the Central CommitteeS3VSKTY, whoary big man and ia the Chiefof the Information Directorate.
explain this ooatrcdiotion, KKaJSICKSV'a present belligerent attitudo is cci-raletoly opposite from tho position that ho ought so hard to attain atstj Party Ccnferenco. Can yound with referencing, what brought this about? efer to KKRUSKCIIEV'a '. own coatradiotory words.
S.: nderstand you porfeotly. Everythingiolccticallyntor./ovan. Even DAJWIR"dalocticion. When KHRUSHCHEV vras : "
spooking about something entirely different to what he is saying now, foot ho waaoo if io time dates when ho would aign theTreaty and then denounced them, it is likolub and thenthat the reaction ia not in his favour, so ho stops swinging.thathoro woro no military forcea capable of supportingho now advocates. Now he is sittingilitary herao and' ho is not fully equipped to tho maximum ho ia boginning to talka different way. Vfny has ho kept quiot for so many years and nowspooking loudly. Be estimates that thoro are weaknesses in ourand ho also considora that wc arc not fully prepared. Heaomo of our potential otrangths in detail through his Communiet .' particularly end will continue to knov; this unless ws strangleand ha feels that ha has strength and can act this way andthat KENNEDY, KtCxYLUK and Da GAULLE must take hia intothat we aro showing him firmness he is ill at case, but he stillwo will swallow theill. you refer to islalectio deviation and as militaryho wishes to uso this moans toolitical victory inproblem. And now if we falter ha will winoral victorytimo for himself. However, if KHSJECHSV is struck atho may recoil and think aoout itearearalf.course he vill arm during tttia period, as will we, end thanar of nerves. epeatthat any conoeasionbased on pure reason and la-rani tardea considerations will be"by KKOTScOHSVn our part. And incidentally allstems from the problem that youd yourselves in, inl95$ In foot now that you still tolerate CASTRO in Cuba, ho considers an acoonpliahcent ca his part. Yeu soa tho contradiction iawe use complete reason and humanitarian thinking in our approachhim, ho translates this as en indication'
"flora these high level command ohanges made in connootion
-
with the German situation, or cere these changes which were planned
S.: This is again an example of KKaiSHCHEV'a taotlcs, namely of wielding a He had sent XONEV out, actually hd had sacked KQNSVjust like ho had aCSOIOVSICC, but when hc needs thoa he calls thea outgain appealing to their Coaramist Forty affiliation and to do what they should for tho Party and Country. EOSOIOVSKT has already agreed to work for.% but ZKtKOV as yot has not, but thoro are rumours that ho will and the KCJTKV situationepetition of the sameo when HOKCSSOVSKT went down south to the Caucasian diatrlot. othing but propagandaa euro that ZKUKOV will alao agree to serve, wo must await thia.
G"1 EKUSKCHEV aotually rely on the satellite armiesof
Ho is sureertain percentage of the troopa but he
That ia why ho relies oo heavily.want to live and eat tohad better support KHEvSKD33V. iis "is why ho states that anywill develop into an atomlo war. It is absurd end indicatesegaroasiveneos. And ho io trying to frighten people bycurs and his
q SIk. Can you explain clearly escactly what ia meantechanised army?
S-: ave probably not clarified this sufficiently before. The vord "awchonised" moans cr*ary thins on wheels, that moons thcrfi are no foot soldiers and no horses, thoy have eaten all the horses. In addition all of those mcohanical transporta havo been given more fire power such v, as tanks and self-propelled artillory. All other artillery ia either
/transported...
3.: Ho ia complotely confidant in the political nuclei ofloaders in the satollito countries. Be la euro of thisis astooge of hisecretary of en Obkom. j . How obout the
docs not tru
transportedoountcd form or ia toted. As such as possible oi* tho wheeled ond tracked equipment is armoured, even personnel carriers'
have steel plate protection. All infantry ridoa on one form of;; ;
* -
oquipaient or another. eschanised amy may havo varying composition) j
it may have four, fivo or six divisions, but all of them would
no chard sod divisions, insofar aa the infantry cccaponont is ooncerned*
Thoro can. bs variable numbers of tank divisions and mechanised divisions
in tho machaniscd army. There is no set
65. What is your concept of what ia often referred to in ydua*1'
manualsield Army and how does this differombined Arms
Army
S.: Thoy aro the aaxo. Take for oxaraplo tho Sub Carpathian Jiilitary Ddstriot. Four amies wora ataUonod there. How, with the redeployment of the Bighthined Army thoro will be throe. Two of those aro Field Arnica ana one is an Air Aray. When they speakiolfi Army they want to stress that it is primarily an infantry army, but differentdjcfcaniocd Aray. However, it ia exaotly tbe sanecnbined Armsield Awry can havo varying numbers of ifle dlvdsiono depending an tho uissicn assigned to the army end all i" kinds of othar arms cay ba atttohsd as needed.
G.i Would the divioions bo motor-rifle divisions? .'. .
S.i JJo, the rifle diviaiocs here would be foot soldiers.
G.i Therefore, ths conceptombined Arms Army wouldthe rifle divisions you Just apoke of have had engineer, tank andunite attached thereto and therefore the word; "Combined'
S.i That le absolutely aso complications Cevolop in oonnootion with tho Go man situation will Soviet Troops be sent into Boumania, Bulgaria and CBOchoslovukia?
S.: Without question and they will assume tho price combat role in these countries. oSiEHZV would never permit independent
6r
satellite army Action fur political reasons.ill have Soviet troops in front of than oni bohind them.
If tbe allies succeed in forcing access to BERLIN, oould then KHBBKBVeneral wax?
S.: USH3HSV does rotorld war and would attempt to
defeat tho allies locally, but if ho feels that ho has sufficient strength
to knock out the VSA and England, who ore tho loaders of NATO, it ii
possible that he may striko first. Even though in the past our General
Staff and our foreign policies hid condemned the concept ofsuoh es Hitler usod, but now they have gone around to thetherereat advantage to tho aldo thatuddenfirst and thoy era preparing themselves to boositionso. Since he cannot muster enough strength to strike at allcountries simultaneously ho is singling out. andhis attack targets estimating that the other allies wouldto differences aaongrt themselves and be happy to be alive. wo can draw from this ia that if he does not retreat fromproposals endiblj ooiilitiona wo should atriko him first,ho may striko uo.-v-
63- Vfhat ere the prosent views of particularregariaing Soviet policyniony? and the rolo of Sovietthey agree or onccuraga
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iinister suoh as 'liL2fCvS3ZT agrees withalthoughmaolf ho srey say that it may be too earlyonisk. No-eme can opsnly oppose KHRUSHCHEV, thoysimply removed. Each ens is afraid of losing the benefits ho haato his high position. Do you think CiaflcilEV swanta to loseith his twelve thousand rosos? They would rather see ovorythingup in flames and go up thcaisolvca with it than aay anything in .. now and be
0. gave you tho information that you reported
tttov's
S.: Those are tho rumours goinj round all over the country,no praannent person has told me anything about TITOV. The rue>ours going around aro that TITOV only want around onco, Just like GAGAHXH* * The scientists, however, who havo made those elaborate preparations also run tests seorotly ond to ooco degree they havo had success. KHRUSFDHSV likes to bring forth military mencreen. There are two versions of those rtsaours; one version is that TITOV mtda tho aame type of a. vortical flight as tho American dad; tho other version io thatnly circled tho world ones. ried to bring thia up but VARENTSOV soys nothing, even though ho must know the foota^oes not'kaotf anything either booauco theso things wore donegreat seoreoyho launchings wero mode from ZCOSXiLENKO'e bases. Possibly JffiSKAISNKO
haa nothing to do with cosmic flights, but unquestionably bis bases wore used for this. Tlio Soviet people think that thio was propaganda and although thoy understand that such feats aro possible they do not believe It has been yet achieve!. Oflight onoo around can beV exploited for delivering en attack against us.
70. If, as you suggested, one'rumour statedcientistumber of timos in anothor vehicle, instoad of TITOV, thattself wculd bs ma accomplishment, so why wouldot announce it?
Ibi other words those are ac nore than low level That's right, but if everything had been so well perfectedlleges, then why did be not invito westerners, evenut at least news correspondents to witness the launching and results of these flights?
'd like to come back to ono of tho questions, since therelight difference hero between what ho said boforo and what he says no*ould liko to know exactly how he got it. When ho wrote us boforo
ho sold that JGUIUSI/OHSV was going to do something about Turkey snd Iran
-
in Soptcnber or October. t Bays It io going to bo in
conjunction with BERLIN, I'd lib) to got thio Cory absolutely
straight tad clear. Mho first told bia about Iran and Turkey which
una aftor ha loft ua in LGffiCH? that wan eaid at that timo and when
waa tho poeition changed?
3.: nderstand. The politics of tho Central Comnittco and the
"Party ia caatraliaod and they can embark on any altercate roe too and
porfora any mo'oamorphflsis in en Oppos-tO direotion. Pirot of all It is
important to know thatstsd against Iran and continues
to do this. Thio laI reported to you. At that tins thoy were.
planning to solve this problem in an isolated fashion and they only
Ecntioned to eo the ronth of September at that tins. as told
that it could alao happen in Cotobarold you that after tho Party.
Congress thay wouldecco Tivaty with Germany. n
clarifying this and tn saying that this problca will be resolved
simultaneously with tho Oarsnei problem. After the end of the war when
our troops entered Iran thoy rare not badly received by the local
ilation and our troops oven helps'! tbe peasants harvest their crops.
intelligence reports that tho entry cf Soviet Troopa now would not
[ho Vdly received by Um local population. ontemplated .
'giving an ultimatum Similar to "Eh: one hohort time ago to
Turkey end to Pakistan thst if aaylighta wore sent from thoir
airfields those airfiolda would bo ati-ckes. Tba ultimatum to Iran
would state that if v'soricrst ta-oo ware not removed fron Iran, SovietQuid rovo in. Obviously rw-ono would remove anything and ir" he -roved in his troops than tar would That was cno lino of action, but aviy began to think aore dioply about this. onfllot resulting from this would not work out wall sinco there are. baocc in Turkey and Pakistan; therefore it would be better to delay thioonth until October and in the meantime build up preparations-La tho moantims tho course of the extensive manoeuvres would bo checked and troops deployed advantageously and oince tho Party Congress ia mootingh October, this problem can bo handled simultaneously
with the German problem. liird possibility is that only tho German .will bo considered ond our troops can bo concentrated in theof Iran but would not go ln. The important thing is to bo' for any eventuality and to adopt that ccurao of action which bo ths most corpodicnt politically, but of courno all courses of uat be developed for posaiblo use. Therefore this doesif thoy planove for September that thoy would necessarilyto follow through. Preparations ore going on intensivelyin terms of troop training and preparations foraction. Tho island of ARTZMA has been closed. adto you that preparations for this action in Soptomber werebut one cannot tell whenay deoido that another courao i action ia more
nderstand all that end it is perfectly door, butlike to knew who told you exactly about the plana for Iron in the instance.
S.i It wee ZASCJOr vho ia the Chief of tho Kapravloniye against Iran and now ho has been visited by tho Resident from Iran PAKTELSE60JIOV. As scor.ill speak vith liim again and find out what has taken place. Ko isho told me Soptcmbar or Ootobor and thenhat it probably would be in Cctobor togethor with the German problem.
At the time that you wrota this you also said that thoyto cord ChylKGVthors, but sinco then that haa been . as ClffllXOy connected nitfl the. Iran problem?
S.i At tho time that lO^SECHJV sent KONEV off ho wonted to place' ktrshale in cvory border military district. Therefore ho -ras considering CEDXIOV togetherhole groupahals for on assignment, since then he has deoided to make him tho Chief of Civil Dafcnce instead but it does not mean that CKUIKOV cay not be again tho Cocrnandor of Ground orces which is being rumourod. All these movoa aro tentative considerationsssure you that if hostilities break out thoro williarshal in cvory bordor nilitery district.
tl-thoifldnti
mt. today even though usrshals aro not actually prosent there that doeo not moan that pre pa ration is not going on and possiblyhey have boon already designated but have not gone there. when hostilities begin they will appear bocausc the troops morale andront is enhanoed by tho presencerominent Marshal whoroven military leader.
74- "rhon did khrushchevhis statement about chopping down, tho tree ond then tho branches will fall off themselves?
. Ha said this tn tho ka-omlineception. on'tefa ene, hs has thenhout it was about the timerote about it. yeu hova no doubt heardtestern ambassador (tout tha ireidorf; whan EXETSaCOEf was drunkeception and waa speakingegaton boshalthough his people wore tryingorrect him ho was miring up tnt eoviivolents with eotual weight. hink, it must have boon the french ^litary ^superiority ovar soviet ar-mant.on he he po arrest? ' -
s.: you soe he foals that tho uost ia not fully preparedare manycn the lacmbors of nato* Host wcrobotter organised than it would be atronger but slnoo'hare oontradictiono in nato it is possible that some of thopull out of it and thoroforo lt is-
g.i does ho not recognise tho west's superiority in armament?
S.i Ho rooogniegs that thoro is armament strength, but he fools that the contradictions in nato aro strong enough to justify his position and ho anticipates wirmdng becauso of this,
'a
I
j
I
76, hink it is time that we should he packing upv tois getting late. (Subject stood up and examinedwhich hs had photographed in order to spot the sectionpreparations^
S.i By the way there will not bo any more artillory journals1 the last issues arerom now onwill be placed in special sbomik,avo put awayin the Artillery Headquartersafe another journalave thoro in order to photograph iteturn. The nowwill be placed in tho sbomik of tho Voyennaya liyal but it iathat an entire issue can be devoted to -artillery artioles. (Subject reviewed his mission assignments and again requested-in introduaingrench businessman. respect to EsetingsiatV/ the entire month was cancelled . Subject planned to go on leavo immediately on his returnaddition not only would ths time clemont bo too short in October for accumulating any material or photography immediately afterbut since he himselftreotod that-tha XG3 activity duringup tooveaber would bo exceptionally heavy it would bo wiseith Janet during thia
owever, we must arrange meetings for November. (Subjectthat it would be possible for him to meet again with'Janet hereand at that timo tho mooting plans for the future would be worked),
S.i As longm in the Committee meeting arrangements with
t Receptions are fine buteep in mind thatransferred back to GRU then wa mustystom for future
coi vr.unications which wouldclusivslylandestine basis. to that wo must work out e. method for mo to pass onto you, that io for that kind of data that you musttwenty-four
G.i Uo will work all this out prior to your departure.
Tho next meeting was set for I'xmSayh Septemberours but Subject would be given instructions to meetiffororvt^
BV point through OTNKB. Subject mas told that prior,uld be noil to take advantagehia'ear? -to^^r'*^
hort trip around PARIS. Subject agrood. Subject was ahowntranaoript of hia first meeting end ho was inrprosaed by tho amountit tako3 to record tha meetings with him. He woe told that' Wedo this in order to report to our Govornments what he has said as as we can. In connection with the official mootingthat Subject contemplated, ha requested that YJYNNE wouldsome material, something liko technical broofiuroa, he was shownvery fino French businoss firms brochures and he was quitesome of thoso which he vould select later as having notionally ', -through TJYXN3rench businessman. Subjeot's documentsworo taken out by Soger to bs photographed were now returned to Subject loftours crd wa3 dolivored by car to of his hotel,ew blocko away by 1LG. and J. Thereincident- '
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