Path: news.isc.org!data.pa.vix.com!sonysjc!sanjose-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!dallas-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldfeed.gte.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!demeter.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.nildram.co.uk!news-peer.netdirect.net.uk!btnet-feed2!btnet!bmdhh222.bnr.ca!bhars12c.bnr.co.uk!bcarh8ac.ca.nortel.com!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.us.nortel.com!hipcancel!despams.ocunix.on.ca!resurrector!not-for-mail Message-ID: X-Reposted-By: dave@ferret.ocunix.on.ca X-Original-Path: ...!news3.bellglobal.com!news1.bellglobal.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news2.ais.net!jamie!ais.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.ai.games,comp.graphics.animation,comp.graphics.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.music,rec.games.design,rec.games.programmer,rec.music.makers Subject: REPOST: RESULT: comp.games.development.* hierarchy all pass Followup-To: news.groups X-Original-Message-ID: <900654085.775@isc.org> References: <894334369.29231@isc.org> <894502511.10739@isc.org> <895211921.5078@isc.org> <895579669.5048@isc.org> <896676305.4204@isc.org> <897275376.16312@isc.org> <897877481.15423@isc.org> <898810896.6454@isc.org> <899752945.135@isc.org> Supersedes: <899752945.135@isc.org> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Archive-Name: comp.games.development Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:41:27 GMT X-Comments: DtR Repost: The following Usenet article was cancelled, X-Comments: more than likely by someone other than the original poster. X-Comments: Please see the end of this posting for a copy of the cancel. X-Comments: Dave the Resurrector can be contacted at dave@ferret.ocunix.on.ca Lines: 546 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:10443 news.groups:291550 comp.ai.games:10556 comp.graphics.animation:51963 comp.graphics.misc:27443 comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard.music:27536 rec.games.design:25511 rec.games.programmer:155803 rec.music.makers:69891 RESULT unmoderated group comp.games.development.art passes 148:17 unmoderated group comp.games.development.audio passes 139:19 unmoderated group comp.games.development.design passes 159:14 unmoderated group comp.games.development.industry passes 140:21 unmoderated group comp.games.development.programming.algorithms passes 146:20 unmoderated group comp.games.development.programming.misc (renames rec.games.programmer) passes 143:24 Yes No | 2/3 >100 | Pass | Group ---- ---- | --- ---- | ---- | ------------------------------------------- 148 17 | Yes Yes | Yes | comp.games.development.art 139 19 | Yes Yes | Yes | comp.games.development.audio 159 14 | Yes Yes | Yes | comp.games.development.design 140 21 | Yes Yes | Yes | comp.games.development.industry 146 20 | Yes Yes | Yes | comp.games.development.programming.algorithms 143 24 | Yes Yes | Yes | comp.games.development.programming.misc There were 181 valid ballots and 3 invalid ballots A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the groups shortly thereafter. Newsgroups lines: comp.games.development.art Creative use of visual art in games. comp.games.development.audio Music, sound, speech production. comp.games.development.design Designing gameplay and rules systems. comp.games.development.industry Biz news, project management, jobs. comp.games.development.programming.algorithms Abstract algorithms for games. comp.games.development.programming.misc General info on programming games. The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 16 Jul 1998. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: Brandon Van Every Votetaker: Neil Crellin RATIONALE: all groups The venerable newsgroup rec.games.programmer is given to heavy volume in excess of 200 posts per day. Informal proposals for a rec.games.programmer.moderated newsgroup have failed because nobody wants to moderate such a volume of posts. It is hoped that the new hierarchy will constructively diffuse the energy of eager posters, and that the rationale for the hierarchy will diminish cross-posting. Rec.games.programmer is also, clearly, in the wrong place. It was instituted in the hey-day of the back-bedroom programmer when *all* aspects of games development were handled by one or two people at most. It was placed under the "rec.*" banner mainly because most programmers in the 1980s were hobbyists -- the 'professional' games programmer was a very rare occurrence back then. Today, the industry has grown up, and specialisation rules supreme. Programmers no longer draw the graphics. Nor do programmers create music or sound effects. Thus we need new, clearly related newsgroups that can cope with the modern division of labour. And the only way to avoid tortured names like "rec.games.programmer.art" is to rectify the mistake that placed r.g.p in its present hierarchy. In the future, we anticipate that non-development games newsgroups may be merged into comp.games.*. We use the prefix *.development.* to distinguish the development-oriented newsgroups. The abbreviation *.dev.* was rejected by Usenet admins on the grounds that it's an abbreviation, and the precedent in other groups is to spell out the full word "development." *.maker.* was suggested, but it is not as strong a bulwark against non-developmental posts as *.development.*. Having 2 separate *.development.* and *.programming.* hierarchies was suggested, but when Usenet admins activate or filter a related set of newsgroups, they prefer to control related groups with only 1 wildcard charcter. Also *.design needs to be at the same hierarchical level as *.programming, to reinforce the fact that *.design is not a programming newsgroup. For example, a future hierarchy might look like the following. [THIS IS NOT A PROPOSAL AT THE PRESENT TIME!] comp.games.action comp.games.adventure comp.games.flight-sim comp.games.development.art comp.games.development.audio comp.games.development.design comp.games.development.industry comp.games.development.programming.algorithms comp.games.development.programming.misc comp.games.marketplace comp.games.misc comp.games.naval comp.games.rpg comp.games.sports comp.games.strategic comp.games.war-historical RATIONALE: comp.games.development.art Programmers are only half of what make a games project come together, artists are the other half. Artists are often put off by "boring" discussions of langauges and compiler speeds, this is a forum for creativity in games development. rec.games.art was not chosen because the focus is on computer and console games development, whereas hierarchically rec.games.art would also imply board games, card games, miniatures, etc. Admittedly, *.art has not previously been discussed much in r.g.p. However, it is extensively discussed at Gamasutra, a commercial and quite popular website that discusses the art and science of games development. The structure of comp.games.development.* is in fact meant to duplicate the major elements of the highly successful Gamasutra model. Gamasutra has basically re-invented the concept of newsgroups using a clumsy web interface for reading and replying to posts, and many of us would rather use Usenet. Please refer to http://www.gamasutra.com for evidence that *.art traffic will in fact occur. RATIONALE: comp.games.development.audio A handful of game musicians/composers have informed me that they feel they are often forgotten in games production. Furthermore, the Computer Game Developers Conference hosts a well-attended and successful Audio Track every year, alongside their other tracks covering Programming, Visual Arts, Production, Business and Legal, and Game Design. Since *.audio is a logical grouping of tasks essential to games production, it seems reasonable to give the audio people a group of their own. Will the group get enough traffic? Despite the existence of other *.music, *.sound, and *.audio newsgroups in the Usenet hierarchy, rec.games.programmer is known to carry a reasonably significant volume of audio-related traffic. To quantify the audio traffic, I searched DejaNews for the keywords "music OR sound OR audio" for the past year. To see if traffic is sporadic, I searched each month individually. An average over the entire year would cover up peaks and lows in traffic. Each month was searched from the 1st to the 31st, to cover the varying lengths of all months. The results are: month articles ------------------------ Jun97 267 Jul97 324 Aug97 291 Sep97 296 Oct97 262 Nov97 248 Dec97 305 Jan98 391 Feb98 376 Mar98 395 Apr98 1700 May98 6000 So, rec.games.programmer has been averaging 8..12 audio articles per day, with a massive increase in audio topics in April..May 1998. This is sufficient evidence that comp.games.development.audio will get traffic. RATIONALE: comp.games.development.design There is already a newsgroup called "rec.games.design" which covers *all* games, not just those that run on computers. I.e.: discussions of board games, chess, Go, role-play games, etc. are perfectly legitimate. It is not specifically aimed at computer games design, yet it is currently being swamped by such discussions. Unfortunately, this invasion of the computer games designers gives newbies the impression that *any* aspect of computer games can be discussed in r.g.d. -- witness the current threads asking about "Compile errors in Visual C++...". ANd other non-design-related posts abound, such as the technical details of isometric graphics, the salary of musicians in the games industry, etc. This is a mess that must be cleared up, if only to prevent the outbreak of war. There are even discussions in r.g.d about the feasibility of creating a separate "rec.games.design.board" newsgroup. This is a sad state of affairs. By moving the computer-games-specific posts to a dedicated home, we can kill two birds with one stone. NOTE: this proposal has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on the name or charter of rec.games.design. comp.games.development.design is being created as a completely separate group, we are not proposing a rename or any change whatsoever to rec.games.design. However, it is expected that in practice, most of the computer games design traffic will be diverted to comp.games.development.design. As outlined above, this is viewed by many as A Good Thing (tm). Still, some people worry that this will "harm" rec.games.design, or more particularly, that it's against the best interests of computer game designers. A number of non-computer game designers feel that computer games are essentially similar to non-computer games, and that computer game designers would do well to pay more attention to their non-computer counterparts. However, the computer game designers mostly feel that their chosen medium has unique properties worthy of special attention. In any event, there is nothing stopping people from subscribing to both comp.games.development.design and rec.games.design if they want to hear both perspectives. RATIONALE: comp.games.development.industry Recently, serious discussions of game project management have been among the most civil and widely praised of rec.games.programmer's offerings. Programmers often pay too much attention to the technologies they develop, and not enough to the business environment in which they create them. Control over the strategy of a project can make or break a programmer's career, so timely discussion of business issues is a service to the game programming community. RATIONALE: comp.games.development.programming.algorithms r.g.p is full of questions about how to implement 2D scrollers, 3D matrix transforms, scripting languages, and AI path finders, despite the fact that many other Usenet newsgroups exist to discuss these topics. We can't stop people from posting these questions, they need a group. *.algorithms is general-purpose enough that we needn't worry about duplicating the rest of the Usenet hierarchy. Whereas if we handled each algorithmic concern on a case-by-case basis, i.e. *.3d, *.2d, *.scripting, *.ai, we'd have an explosion of duplicate groups. (That said, if if *.algorithms ever carries enough traffic to warrant subgroups, we can worry about it later.) Also, r.g.p is full of advocacy posts about operating systems, compilers, and APIs. These things are NOT algorithms. We make the *.algorithms newsgroup so that the OS/language/API advocates will hopefully leave us alone. In the event that they do not, we will either beat them about the head with the charter, or propose a moderated newsgroup at some point in the future. RATIONALE: comp.games.development.programming.misc A number of folks don't want to see rec.games.programmer changed at all. And aside from *.algorithms, people can't agree on a breakdown of *.programming topics. Rather than try to solve these issues now, we molest rec.games.programmer as little as possible, and simply rename it to comp.games.development.programming.misc. This is a compromise that will hopefully make the most people happy, and that still allows us room to solve any problems later. CHARTER: comp.games.development.art For discussion of visual aesthetics and techniques in computer and console games development. The primary focus is upon the creative aspects of game artistry, although discussion of tools and technical issues is condoned. Please try to keep discussion relevant to art, and try not to turn it into a bunch of programming mumbo jumbo. END CHARTER. CHARTER: comp.games.development.audio For the discussion of music, sound, sound effects, noise, speech synthesis, and real-time audio synthesis as applied to games production. This includes aesthetic, compositional, engineering, and programming issues as they arise in real-world commercial games production. Please keep conversation focused on games, and please be aware that other music newsgroups exist for non-games discussion. END CHARTER. CHARTER: comp.games.development.design Why is a given computer/console game fun to play? Why are some games great, and others suck? These perplexing and intangible questions are the essence of game design. In this newsgroup we attempt to answer these questions, believing that a great game is more than the sum of its artistic, technical, and business components. This group is solely for the discussion of GAME design. Programming, marketing, artwork, and audio all have their own design criteria, but none of these result in a good game in and of themselves, and they should not be discussed here. Game design is focused upon the rules systems of games and the "play value" of games, i.e. how fun it is to play, and how long the fun will last. Tools that assist in the game design process (design documents, storyboarding, physical prototypes, even pencil-and-paper) may be discussed, but this group is NOT for discussion of programming, art, and/or audio tools in general. Please take such discussion to the relevant groups. END CHARTER. CHARTER: comp.games.development.industry For discussion of business news and trends in the games industry. Game project management, the marketing and financing of game projects, and the impact of business strategies on the success/failure of game products are all topical. This is the preferred group for job offers, discussions of salary/compensation/royalties, the importance of getting a C.S. degree, breaking into the industry, and so forth. Full text of conference announcements is encouraged. Full text of game product announcements is discouraged; instead, give an EXCEEDINGLY BRIEF (4 lines of text) pointer to a web page about the product. *.industry is not for *.advocacy discussion of games products, and that's what full-text announcements tend to generate. END CHARTER. CHARTER: comp.games.development.programming.algorithms For the discussion of computational algorithms used in games development, including but not limited to 2D display, 3D display, sorting, numerical optimization, parsing, and AI approaches. "Algorithms" in the computer science sense of the term are generally regarded as being independent of underlying hardware implementation. However, in the real world algorithms must always be optimized, and optimization is always hardware-specific. Therefore, discussion of hardware-specific optimization techniques is condoned. Please use judgement as to whether a discussion belongs in *.algorithms. Operating systems, APIs, languages, and compilers are NOT algorithms. Posts about "which 3D API is better," or "which language/compiler/OS should I use" are off-topic, post them elsewhere. END CHARTER. CHARTER: comp.games.development.programming.misc For the technical discussion of operating systems, platforms, consoles, languages, libraries, and other programming methodologies used in games development. Discussion upon any games programming topic is condoned. Please take non-programming topics to other groups. END CHARTER. comp.games.development.* hierarchy Final Voter list comp.games.development.programming.misc (renames rec.games.programmer)--------+ comp.games.development.programming.algorithms -------+| comp.games.development.industry ------+|| comp.games.development.design -----+||| comp.games.development.audio ----+|||| comp.games.development.art ---+||||| |||||| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gmurphy * riot.com.au Glen Murphy YAYYAA n3072129 * bohm.anu.edu.au Daniel Noll YYYYYY l.cameron2 * ugrad.unimelb.edu.au Levi Cameron YYYYYY house * usq.edu.au Ron House YYYYYY eyal * eyal.emu.id.au Eyal Lebedinsky YYYYYY jasmine * fl.net.au Jasmine Taylor NNNNNN andrew * one.net.au Andrew Maizels YYYYYY phaywood * aardvark.apana.org.au Peter Haywood YYYYYY stg * stg.com.br Luiz Marques YYYYYY chriseb * nortel.ca Chris Ebenezer YNYNNY tapio.vocadlo * sympatico.ca Tapio Vocadlo YYAAYY jmcgarry * uoguelph.ca James McGarry YYYYYY r.blum * advertainment.com Robert Blum YYYYYY dmitry * alex-ua.com Dmitry Kuzmenko YYYYYY FltLin * aol.com Joseph MacGonegal AAYAAA lucfrench * aol.com Luc French YYYYYN MatthewWM * aol.com Matt Marshall YYYYYY sforsell * aol.com Scott Forsell YYYYYY cdt * audiophile.com Chris Trumbore AAAAAA kevin * trixie.kosman.via.ayuda.com Kevin O'Gorman YYYYYY kimdv * best.com Kim DeVaughn YYYYYN stainles * bga.com Dwight Brown NNNNNN dkirby * bigfoot.com Dave Kirby YYYYYY wtiger * bigfoot.com Khairul Azhar AAYAYY erikh * caravelsoftware.com Erik Hermansen YYYYYY craighea * citilink.com Matt Craighead YYYYYY pkasieck * cognex.com Philip T. Kasiecki YYYAYY clover * crl.com Alex D'Angelo YYYYYY rhofmann * crl.com Kyle R. Hofmann YYYYYY andy * crystald.com Andy Wright YYYYYY fche * cygnus.com Frank Ch. Eigler NNYYYY GGrasso * darkearth.com Gabriel Grasso YNYYNN GHeliou * darkearth.com Gwen Heliou YYYYYY JFRoulon * darkearth.com Jean Francois Roulon YYYNNN MDonnain * darkearth.com Marc Donnain YYYYNN DasBuro.Com!mfx * DasBuro.Com Markus Freericks YYYYYA booda * datasync.com Martin H. Booda YYYYYY guymacon * deltanet.com guymacon@deltanet.com (Guy Macon) YYYNYA ric * digital-animations.com Richard Cooper YYYYAA ron * dorianresearch.com Ron Levine YYYYYY bob149 * efortress.com Bob Blanchard NNNNNN ehsmalu * ehpt.com Mattias Lundstrom YYYYYY jeffsj * execpc.com Jeffery S. Jones YYYYYY david * farrar.com David Farrar NNYYNY jason * gaydeceiver.com Jason Steiner NNNNNN jamul * hamumu.com Mike Hommel YYYYYY menright1 * home.com Mike Enright NNNNNN celticwiccan * hotmail.com Peter Byron NNNNNN msimpson * hotmail.com Michael Simpson YYYYYY rayb * shofixti.fc.hp.com Raymond G. Bingham YYYYYY abell * uk.ibm.com Aaron Bell YAYAYY gregfra * iname.com Greg Franklin YNYYYY richard_damon * iname.com Richard Damon YYYYYY mikemaz * interlog.com Mike Linkovich YYYYYY astapp * io.com Acy James Stapp YYYYYY chris * kzim.com Christopher Robin Zimmerman AAAAAN christopher.j.roy * lmco.com Christopher J. Roy YYYYYY rmenninger * lucent.com Richard Menninger YYYYYY mmanyen * meyerglass.com Mark Manyen YYYYYY cipher * mindspring.com Cipher YYYYYY olav * viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar NNNNNN millette * my-dejanews.com Robin Y. Millette YYYYYY mqj * ix.netcom.com Mandel Q. Johnson YYYYNN simpson * netcom.com Bob Simpson YYYYYY tgm * netcom.com Thomas G. McWilliams NNNNNN shinton * netdoor.com Stephen Hinton YYYYYY rava * netrevolution.com Jean-Francois Richard YYYYYY christer * neversoft.com Christer Ericson YYYYYY ed * u170a.newbourbon.com Edd Twilbeck YYYYYY keegansj * perkin-elmer.com Stephen Keegan YYYYYY carl * pinder.com Carl L. Pinder YYYNYY bbrandt * pobox.com Brian Brandt YYYYYY greg.stelmack * redstorm.com Greg Stelmack YYYYYY qduffy * relic.com Quinn Duffy AAYYAA GNorth * columbus.rr.com Gloria North YYYYYY jjszucs * rochester.rr.com John J. Szucs YYYYYY brennan * Rt66.com Brennan Underwood YYYYYN buzzard * world.std.com Sean Barrett YYYYYY ulrich * world.std.com Thatcher Ulrich YYYYYY csehy * Stormfront.com Chris Sehy YYYYYY dclemons * Stormfront.com David Clemons YYYYYY fbertrand * Stormfront.com Francois Bertrand YYYYYY gsabatini * Stormfront.com Gregory Sabatini YYYYYY JoeS * Stormfront.com Joe Straitiff YYYYYY rstevenson * Stormfront.com Randall Stevenson YYYYYY slee * Stormfront.com Shawn D. Lee YYYYYY swaits * stormfront.com Stephen Waits YYYYYY Thomas.Granvold * Eng.Sun.COM Thomas Granvold YYYYYY arielle * taronga.com Stephanie da Silva YYYYYY daver * teleport.com David Reynolds NNNNYY pmonte * trecision.com Pietro Montelatici YAYYAA TimS * tai.uk.com Tim Skipper YAYYYN Jay * valvesoftware.com Jay Stelly YYYYYA Ralf.Schneider * goeppingen.netsurf.de Ralf Schneider YYYYYY jdibbelt * on-luebeck.de Julian Dibbelt YYYYYY naddy * mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian Weisgerber NNNNNN hsauer * marnie.teuto.de Henning Sauer YYYYYY draettig * ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de Dirk Raettig YYYYYY sbo * psy.med.uni-muenchen.de Boris Schaefer AAYYYY infernal * bre.winnet.de Florian Schacht YYYYYY erw * dde.dk Erwin Andreasen YYYYYY breese * imada.ou.dk Bjorn Reese AAYAYY GNALLE * MMF.ruc.dk Niels L Ellegaard YYYYYY jlevenbe * math.berkeley.edu Josh Levenberg YYYYYY dkass * cco.caltech.edu David Kass AAYAYY newcombe * mordor.clayton.edu Dan Newcombe YYYYYY mj2q+ * andrew.cmu.edu Mark A Jensen YYYYYY will+ * cs.cmu.edu William Uther YAYYYY hikaru * r39h52.res.gatech.edu David Hsu YYYYYY k95dl01 * cc.kzoo.edu Dan Lawson AAAAAN jsbrown0 * elbert.Mines.EDU Jeff Brown YYYYYY mpslon01 * morehead-st.edu Michael Slone YYYYYY mortlock * nmt.edu Justin Hooper YYYYYY rmiller * cis.ohio-state.edu Ryan Miller YYYYYY lpsmith * owlnet.rice.edu Lucian Smith YYYYYY rick * bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller NYYNNY kamikaze * kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu Mark Hughes YYYYYY llopis * zonker.ecs.umass.edu Noel Llopis YYYYYY msn * Glue.umd.edu Mat Noguchi YYYYYY rufinus * mbe.ece.wisc.edu J Rufinus YYYYYY ahm * tid.es Alberto Hernandez Marcos YYYYYY jpaaso * cc.helsinki.fi Juha Paaso YYYYYY Pierre.Bru * spotimage.fr Pierre Bru YAYAYY guerry * robot.uvsq.fr GUERRY YYYYYY jhorneman * wanadoo.fr Jurie Horneman YYYYYY vadik * cs.huji.ac.il Vadim Vygonets YYYYYY brisker * actcom.co.il Tomer Brisker YYYYYY choocy * hitech.com.my Choo Chi Yen YYYYYY mikeshlz * animal.blarg.net Michael Scholz YYYYYY vanevery * blarg.net Brandon Van Every YYYYYY wal * blarg.net wayne a. lee YYYYYY obi * clara.net Andy J Buchanan YYYYYY thomas * clark.net Mark Thomas NNNNNN bhall * cyberhighway.net Brian Hall YYYYYY mking * dnc.net Matthew King YYYYYA hipbone * earthlink.net Charles Cameron YYYYYY pbern7 * earthlink.net Paul Bernhardt YYYYYY jwilloug * gate.net Jason Willoughby AAYYYY dwrobel * globalserve.net David Wrobel YYYYYY marty44 * gmx.net Martin Boehme YYYNYY sean.duffy * bbs.goldengate.net Sean Duffy AAAAAA vpdura * hiwaay.net vic dura NNNNNN newsd * troubled.hypermart.net Colin Charles YYYYYY hildahlk * incentre.net Kendall Hildahl YYYAAY dmckay * dfw.nationwide.net Dairin Mckay YAAAAA babybasset1 * ntr.net Geoff Howland YYYYYY bndwgn * pacbell.net Ron Hiler YYYYYY marquez * pacbell.net Aaron Marquez NNNNNN alexdawson * pemail.net Alex Dawson YYYYYY wakelyn * pinn.net N. T. Wakelyn AAAANN random * visi.net Michael Bosley YYYYYY DaRiuS * darius.demon.nl Jeroen Janssen AAYAYY wscheeps * worldonline.nl Walter Scheepens YYYYYY perimath * sn.no Per I Mathisen NNNNYY antony * ihug.co.nz Antony Simmonds YYYYYY mkissin * ihug.co.nz Michael Kissin YYYYYY daniel * pharos.co.nz Daniel Johns AAYAYY donkiely * computer.org Don Kiely YYYYYY dave * bureau42.ml.org David E. Smith YYYYYY henrik.treadup * swipnet.se Henrik Treadup YYYYYY nisbjl97 * student.umu.se Niklas Bjornestal YYYYYY j.macgill * geography.leeds.ac.uk James Macgill YAYAYY stb * stimarco.cix.co.uk Sean Timarco Baggaley YYYYYY russ * algorithm.demon.co.uk Russ Williams YYYYYY avatar * arkane.demon.co.uk Alistair J. R. Young AAAAAY Raven * arpeggio.demon.co.uk Paul Hodgson YYYAAY Hammy * croila.demon.co.uk Hamish Bell YYYYYY abnixon * dmension.demon.co.uk Andy Nixon YYYYAA neil * englewood.demon.co.uk Neil Adamson YYYYYY otto * gizmo1.demon.co.uk Simon Lamont YYYYYY glenn * home-pc.demon.co.uk Glenn Davies YYYYYN lwithers * lwithers.demon.co.uk Laurence Withers YYYYYY nigel * manmusic.demon.co.uk Nigel Street YYYYYY rob * mhairi.demon.co.uk Rob Alexander YYYYYY stephen.news-a * six-pine-trees.demon.co.uk Stephen Wright AYYYYY Voting * valdena.demon.co.uk AST YYYNAA leovdb * dircon.co.uk Leo van der Borgh YYYYYY kol * strater.force9.co.uk Nikolaus Strater YYYYYY jamess * gremlin.co.uk James Sutherland YYYYYY AlexS * Probe.co.uk Alex Syrichas YYYYYY htrd * tcp.co.uk Toby Dickenson YYYYYY Invalid ballots ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- krenske * namosp.usq.edu.au Paul Krenske ! Undeliverable address ldubb * u.washington.edu L. Dubb ! Undeliverable address Nick.Burcombe * psygnosis.co.uk ! No votemark in ballot -- Neil Crellin, UVV ========= WAS CANCELLED BY =======: Path: ...!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.icm.edu.pl!orion.cst.tpsa.pl!news.tpnet.pl!not-for-mail Control: cancel <900654085.775@isc.org> Subject: cmsg cancel <900654085.775@isc.org> Message-ID: From: HipCrime@bwesjyu.mil Sender: Neil Crellin Approved: HipCrime@bwesjyu.mil Newsgroups: news.groups X-No-Archive: Yes Organization: HipCrime International, unLtd. Lines: 2 Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:25:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.237.253.133 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:25:01 MET DST Cancelled by HipCrime's NewsAgent.