From maha@neosoft.com Sun Oct 8 18:58:18 2000 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: maha@neosoft.com Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.music.progressive,rec.music.classical.contemporary,rec.music.makers.jazz,alt.noise,rec.music.industrial,rec.music.ambient,alt.music.sonic-youth Subject: RFD: rec.music.experimental Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <971056170.11491@isc.org> Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Archive-Name: rec.music.experimental Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 01:49:30 GMT Lines: 67 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11593 news.groups:366879 rec.music.progressive:202100 rec.music.classical.contemporary:21446 rec.music.makers.jazz:9728 rec.music.industrial:350118 rec.music.ambient:48167 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD) unmoderated group rec.music.experimental This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup rec.music.experimental. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below. Newsgroup line: rec.music.experimental For the discussion of experimental music. RATIONALE: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental will create a Usenet forum for the discussion of international experimental music and related forms and sub-genres of music and ideologies related to such subjects. Experimental music is a profound music genre with roots dating back to the early 20th Century (and earlier in theory), occasionally with ties to art group movements and scientific research. rec.music.experimental will combine and unite the discussion of experimental music found in several music newsgroups. The topic of experimental music is often off-topic (OT) in the existing newsgroups where the primary discussion is not directly related to the genre of experimental music, simply because there is currently no single forum existing in the Big Eight hierarchy to discuss matters related to the experimental genre. rec.music experimental will offer a single location and source devoted to the discussion, dissemination, and debate of experimental music, instruments and theory. And the last reason: Where would you look for experimental music in the record store if there wasn't an experimental section? CHARTER: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental is for the discussion of international experimental music and related artists, groups and bands. Any discussion of experimental music is welcome; including reviews of current and past releases, concert information, news information, and related topics and opinions. Introspective and critical discussion is encouraged. END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of the proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups: rec.music.progressive, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.makers.jazz, alt.noise, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.ambient, alt.music.sonic-youth Proponent: nunya biznaz From maha@neosoft.com Tue Dec 12 16:12:48 2000 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: maha@neosoft.com Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.music.techno,alt.noise,rec.music.ambient,rec.music.classical.contemporary,rec.music.industrial,rec.music.makers.jazz,rec.music.progressive Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.music.experimental Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <976665798.11531@isc.org> Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Archive-Name: rec.music.experimental Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:03:19 GMT Lines: 204 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11622 news.groups:370751 rec.music.ambient:49031 rec.music.classical.contemporary:22115 rec.music.industrial:361967 rec.music.makers.jazz:10749 rec.music.progressive:212562 REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD) unmoderated group rec.music.experimental This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup rec.music.experimental. This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details are below. CHANGES from previous RFD: Expanded rationale and charter. Newsgroup line: rec.music.experimental For the discussion of experimental music. RATIONALE: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental will create a Usenet forum for the discussion of international experimental music as well as combine and unite discussion of experimental music found in several music newsgroups. The subject of experimental music is often off-topic in existing newsgroups where it is discussed because there is currently no single forum existing in the Big Eight hierarchy to discuss matters related to experimental music. rec.music.experimental will offer a single location and source devoted to the discussion of experimental music, instruments and concepts. Adequate interest and traffic for rec.music.experimental is suggested by the following information. There are at least 300 informed supporters prepared to vote *YES* in the CFV election for the creation of rec.music.experimental. These supporters were gathered on various music newsgroups such as alt.music.sonic-youth, alt.music.techno, alt.noise, rec.music.ambient, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.hip-hop, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz, rec.music.progressive, and well established mailing lists such as 11111, c93, fluxlist, freenoise, minimalism, noise, nww, oddmusic, thewire, tmonk and ZBC_NCP. Each individual supporter suggested that they would be willing to vote *YES* in an email election for the creation of a newsgroup on Usenet named rec.music.experimental for the purposes outlined in the r.m.e. charter. Several Deja Usenet discussion power searches for the two month period of August 15, 2000 - October 15, 2000 were conducted, with a total average result of 49.3 on-topic posts per day. It should be noted that experimental music is not always referred to directly as "experimental" when discussing specific artists, therefore the actual average of on-topic posts may be greater than 49.3 posts per day. forum: *music* keyword: "experimental" results: 1542 matches average: 25.7 posts per day forum: *music* keyword: "free jazz" results: 122 matches average: 2 posts per day forum: rec.music.classical.contemporary keyword: "experimental" results: 20 matches average: .3 posts per day forum: rec.music.progressive keyword: "experimental" results: 123 matches average: 2 post per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "experimental" results: 147 matches average: 2.5 posts per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "noise" results: 666 matches average: 11.1 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "experimental" results: 109 matches average: 1.8 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "noise" results: 355 matches average: 5.9 posts per day And the last reason why you should vote yes for the creation of rec.music.experimental: Where would you look for experimental music in the record store (on-line or not) if there wasn't an experimental section, and where would you discuss experimental music on Usenet if there wasn't a newsgroup called rec.music.experimental? CHARTER: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental is an unmoderated forum for the discussion of sound works contained within the international experimental philosophy of music. For the purposes of this newsgroup, experimental music should generally be regarded as that which: a) Challenges the boundaries of the various traditions in which music is rooted. b) Establishes a new or novel approach to creating sounds which cannot be comfortably categorized in any of the standard genres. c) Or follows in the traditions of experimental music itself. Experimental music is a profound music movement with roots dating back to the early 20th Century (and earlier in theory), occasionally with ties to art group movements and scientific research. It is essentially a "non-genre genre", which resists the confines of strict definitions. Experimental music is more an attitude toward music or perception of sounds and music/sound concepts, whether creating or listening, than it is anything specific about song structure or sound style. Another important facet of experimental music is the use of non-traditional instruments and the invention of newfangled contraptions designed to create sound. However, an approximate working definition of experimental music is: Audio work which explores music traditions and discovers new perceptions of sound theories. This could refer simply to free jazz, harsh noise, electroacoustics or musique concrete, or less travelled ideas, such as symphonic improvisations played by trained monkeys, pop hits played with a typewriter and doorbell, industrial bluegrass turntablism, freestyle hip hop rapped backwards, jet engines with a ukulele melody and effected goat vocals, the sound of paint drying, or an infinite number of serious and/or sarcastic combinations and interpretations of all available sound sources in the known universe. Experimentalists consider all perceptible sound to be music, and as such are not limited by known music conventions when creating their compositions. Thus, experimental music is characteristically an area that draws together music from a variety of music genres and sociocultural contexts. A partial and incomplete listing of representative experimental artists and forms include: -- Blues/Jazz (Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Wm Parker, Derek Bailey, Capt. Beefheart) -- Classical/Concrete (Stockhausen, Cage, Xenakis, Satie, Pierre Henry) -- Minimalism/Ambient (LeMonte Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, Charlemagne Palestine, Pauline Oliveros) -- Rock/Punk (Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wound, early Butthole Surfers, some Sonic Youth) -- Noise/Scum (Merzbow, Whitehouse, Haters, Muslimgauze, Boredoms, Diamond Shamrock) -- Plunderphonics/Found Sound (John Oswald, Negativland, Evolution Control Committee, Lucas) -- Hip-hop/Techno (X-ecutioners, QBert, Peanut Butter Wolf, Gunter, Atari Teenage Riot) -- Folk/Country (Eugene Chadbourne, Mazzacane Connors, John Fahey) -- Instrument Builders (Harry Partch, Ellen Fullman, Donald Buchla, Harry Bertoia, Luigi Russolo, Survival Research Laboratories) -- Art Movements (Avant Garde, Futurism, Dada, Surrealism, Fluxus, Anti-Art) r.m.e. exists to facilitate discussions concerning these experimental traditions and the intriguing common space shared by boundary-challengers from these backgrounds. Any discussion of experimental music is welcome, including discussions about techniques and philosophies of creating and listening, reviews of current and past releases, playlists, concert listings and news. Introspective and critical discussion on topics such as "what makes a particular artist experimental?" is encouraged. Commercial postings directly related to the topic of experimental music are welcome only if done so occasionally and sparingly (no more than once per month). Off-topic (OT) posts will be tolerated only when tangentially related to experimental music (such as art/graffiti, video/film, science/technology), but should be kept to a minimum. Binaries are prohibited, except for PGP signatures and similar small binaries. If you have photos or sounds you wish to share with the group, please provide a link. The rec.music.experimental charter was created and compiled with material written by the group's original proponent, Brent Bruni Comiskey (eyedunno), and Daniel Bodah, with additional text by Colonel Panic, James Whitehead, Todd McComb and others. November 1, 2000 END CHARTER. PROCEDURE: This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens. All discussion of the proposal should be posted to news.groups. This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions about the process. DISTRIBUTION: This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups: alt.music.techno, alt.noise, rec.music.ambient, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.makers.jazz, rec.music.progressive Proponent: eyedunno From neilc@wallaby.cc Tue Feb 13 07:29:57 2001 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin Reply-To: voting@uvv.wallaby.cc Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.music.techno,alt.noise,rec.music.ambient,rec.music.classical.contemporary,rec.music.industrial,rec.music.makers.jazz,rec.music.progressive Subject: CFV: rec.music.experimental Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <982078034.25518@isc.org> References: <971056170.11491@isc.org> <976665798.11531@isc.org> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Expires: 7 Mar 2001 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: rec.music.experimental Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:27:14 GMT Lines: 274 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11649 news.groups:373820 rec.music.ambient:49669 rec.music.classical.contemporary:22791 rec.music.industrial:372689 rec.music.makers.jazz:12100 rec.music.progressive:223979 FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) unmoderated group rec.music.experimental This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker. Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid. Newsgroups line: rec.music.experimental For the discussion of experimental music. Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 6 Mar 2001. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: eyedunno Votetaker: Neil Crellin RATIONALE: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental will create a Usenet forum for the discussion of international experimental music as well as combine and unite discussion of experimental music found in several music newsgroups. The subject of experimental music is often off-topic in existing newsgroups where it is discussed because there is currently no single forum existing in the Big Eight hierarchy to discuss matters related to experimental music. rec.music.experimental will offer a single location and source devoted to the discussion of experimental music, instruments and concepts. Adequate interest and traffic for rec.music.experimental is suggested by the following information. There are at least 300 informed supporters prepared to vote *YES* in the CFV election for the creation of rec.music.experimental. These supporters were gathered on various music newsgroups such as alt.music.sonic-youth, alt.music.techno, alt.noise, rec.music.ambient, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.hip-hop, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz, rec.music.progressive, and well established mailing lists such as 11111, c93, fluxlist, freenoise, minimalism, noise, nww, oddmusic, thewire, tmonk and ZBC_NCP. Each individual supporter suggested that they would be willing to vote *YES* in an email election for the creation of a newsgroup on Usenet named rec.music.experimental for the purposes outlined in the r.m.e. charter. Several Deja Usenet discussion power searches for the two month period of August 15, 2000 - October 15, 2000 were conducted, with a total average result of 49.3 on-topic posts per day. It should be noted that experimental music is not always referred to directly as "experimental" when discussing specific artists, therefore the actual average of on-topic posts may be greater than 49.3 posts per day. forum: *music* keyword: "experimental" results: 1542 matches average: 25.7 posts per day forum: *music* keyword: "free jazz" results: 122 matches average: 2 posts per day forum: rec.music.classical.contemporary keyword: "experimental" results: 20 matches average: .3 posts per day forum: rec.music.progressive keyword: "experimental" results: 123 matches average: 2 post per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "experimental" results: 147 matches average: 2.5 posts per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "noise" results: 666 matches average: 11.1 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "experimental" results: 109 matches average: 1.8 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "noise" results: 355 matches average: 5.9 posts per day And the last reason why you should vote yes for the creation of rec.music.experimental: Where would you look for experimental music in the record store (on-line or not) if there wasn't an experimental section, and where would you discuss experimental music on Usenet if there wasn't a newsgroup called rec.music.experimental? CHARTER: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental is an unmoderated forum for the discussion of sound works contained within the international experimental philosophy of music. For the purposes of this newsgroup, experimental music should generally be regarded as that which: a) Challenges the boundaries of the various traditions in which music is rooted. b) Establishes a new or novel approach to creating sounds which cannot be comfortably categorized in any of the standard genres. c) Or follows in the traditions of experimental music itself. Experimental music is a profound music movement with roots dating back to the early 20th Century (and earlier in theory), occasionally with ties to art group movements and scientific research. It is essentially a "non-genre genre", which resists the confines of strict definitions. Experimental music is more an attitude toward music or perception of sounds and music/sound concepts, whether creating or listening, than it is anything specific about song structure or sound style. Another important facet of experimental music is the use of non-traditional instruments and the invention of newfangled contraptions designed to create sound. However, an approximate working definition of experimental music is: Audio work which explores music traditions and discovers new perceptions of sound theories. This could refer simply to free jazz, harsh noise, electroacoustics or musique concrete, or less travelled ideas, such as symphonic improvisations played by trained monkeys, pop hits played with a typewriter and doorbell, industrial bluegrass turntablism, freestyle hip hop rapped backwards, jet engines with a ukulele melody and effected goat vocals, the sound of paint drying, or an infinite number of serious and/or sarcastic combinations and interpretations of all available sound sources in the known universe. Experimentalists consider all perceptible sound to be music, and as such are not limited by known music conventions when creating their compositions. Thus, experimental music is characteristically an area that draws together music from a variety of music genres and sociocultural contexts. A partial and incomplete listing of representative experimental artists and forms include: -- Blues/Jazz (Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Wm Parker, Derek Bailey, Capt. Beefheart) -- Classical/Concrete (Stockhausen, Cage, Xenakis, Satie, Pierre Henry) -- Minimalism/Ambient (LeMonte Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, Charlemagne Palestine, Pauline Oliveros) -- Rock/Punk (Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wound, early Butthole Surfers, some Sonic Youth) -- Noise/Scum (Merzbow, Whitehouse, Haters, Muslimgauze, Boredoms, Diamond Shamrock) -- Plunderphonics/Found Sound (John Oswald, Negativland, Evolution Control Committee, Lucas) -- Hip-hop/Techno (X-ecutioners, QBert, Peanut Butter Wolf, Gunter, Atari Teenage Riot) -- Folk/Country (Eugene Chadbourne, Mazzacane Connors, John Fahey) -- Instrument Builders (Harry Partch, Ellen Fullman, Donald Buchla, Harry Bertoia, Luigi Russolo, Survival Research Laboratories) -- Art Movements (Avant Garde, Futurism, Dada, Surrealism, Fluxus, Anti-Art) r.m.e. exists to facilitate discussions concerning these experimental traditions and the intriguing common space shared by boundary-challengers >From these backgrounds. Any discussion of experimental music is welcome, including discussions about techniques and philosophies of creating and listening, reviews of current and past releases, playlists, concert listings and news. Introspective and critical discussion on topics such as "what makes a particular artist experimental?" is encouraged. Commercial postings directly related to the topic of experimental music are welcome only if done so occasionally and sparingly (no more than once per month). Off-topic (OT) posts will be tolerated only when tangentially related to experimental music (such as art/graffiti, video/film, science/technology), but should be kept to a minimum. Binaries are prohibited, except for PGP signatures and similar small binaries. If you have photos or sounds you wish to share with the group, please provide a link. The rec.music.experimental charter was created and compiled with material written by the group's original proponent, Brent Bruni Comiskey (eyedunno), and Daniel Bodah, with additional text by Colonel Panic, James Whitehead, Todd McComb and others. November 1, 2000 END CHARTER. IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest in reading the proposed newsgroup, and soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose. Do *not* distribute this CFV; instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing specific voting instructions or pre-marked copies of this CFV is considered vote fraud. This is a public vote: All email addresses, names and votes will be listed in the final RESULT post. The name used may be either a real name or an established Usenet handle. At most one vote is allowed per person or per account. Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote. Voters must mail their ballots directly to the votetaker. Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid, nor are votes mailed from WWW/HTML/CGI forms (which should not exist). Votes from nonexistent accounts or with munged addresses are invalid and will not be counted. Please direct any questions to the votetaker at HOW TO VOTE: Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines. Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts. Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me! Fill in the ballot as shown below. Please provide your real name (or established Usenet handle) and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot. Examples of how to properly indicate your vote: [ YES ] example.yes.vote [ NO ] example.no.vote [ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention [ CANCEL ] example.cancellation DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot. When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < voting@uvv.wallaby.cc > Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line. If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem. You are responsible for reading your ack and making sure your vote is registered correctly. If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv. ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: rec.music.experimental | Official Usenet Voting Ballot (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Established | Usenet handles are also acceptable. Place ONLY your name (ie. do NOT | include your e-mail address or any other information; ONLY your name) | after the colon on the following line: Voter name: | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name): Your Vote Newsgroup --------- ----------------------------------------------------------- [ ] rec.music.experimental ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ============== POINTERS Pointers regarding this CFV may be mailed to the following mailing lists: 11111@egroups.com c93@egroups.com freenoise@egroups.com minimalism@egroups.com noise@egroups.com nww@egroups.com thewire@egroups.com tmonk@egroups.com ZPC_NCP@egroups.com This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Feb 6 1999). PQ datestamp: 980322 -- Voting address: voting@uvv.wallaby.cc From neilc@wallaby.cc Wed Feb 28 17:14:47 2001 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin Reply-To: voting@uvv.wallaby.cc Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.music.techno,alt.noise,rec.music.ambient,rec.music.classical.contemporary,rec.music.industrial,rec.music.makers.jazz,rec.music.progressive Subject: 2nd CFV: rec.music.experimental Followup-To: poster Message-ID: <983408768.16619@isc.org> References: <971056170.11491@isc.org> <976665798.11531@isc.org> <982078034.25518@isc.org> Supersedes: <982078034.25518@isc.org> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Expires: 7 Mar 2001 00:00:00 GMT Archive-Name: rec.music.experimental Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:06:08 GMT Lines: 314 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11656 news.groups:375075 rec.music.ambient:49845 rec.music.classical.contemporary:23037 rec.music.industrial:374514 rec.music.makers.jazz:12485 rec.music.progressive:226728 LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) unmoderated group rec.music.experimental This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by the votetaker. Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid. Newsgroups line: rec.music.experimental For the discussion of experimental music. Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 6 Mar 2001. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: eyedunno Votetaker: Neil Crellin VOTETAKER NOTE **** YOU MAY WANT TO READ THIS **** Since the 1st CFV was posted, several additional distributions of CFV pointers have been brought to the attention of the votetaker. Where possible, these have been added to the DISTRIBUTION disclosure below. Some of these are from the proponent, some are from an interested third party, but the one of particular irregularity to note consists of a private list of email addresses collected by the proponent of individuals he understood wanted to vote in favor of the group. It is the proponents position that this list of over 100 addresses is not a mailing list, and that since he knows how they intend to vote that soliciting their votes does not constitute campaigning. I consider such a distribution to need to be at least disclosed, and am doing so via this mechanism. The proponent has indicated a willingness to provide this list to the votetaker. Special arrangements will be made to contact them to verify the intent of their vote. The decision to proceed in this manner rather than cancel the vote has been made in consultation with the UVV, group-advice, and the n.a.n. moderator, and in no way reduces anyones right to challenge the RESULT based on the Guidelines at the appropriate time. RATIONALE: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental will create a Usenet forum for the discussion of international experimental music as well as combine and unite discussion of experimental music found in several music newsgroups. The subject of experimental music is often off-topic in existing newsgroups where it is discussed because there is currently no single forum existing in the Big Eight hierarchy to discuss matters related to experimental music. rec.music.experimental will offer a single location and source devoted to the discussion of experimental music, instruments and concepts. Adequate interest and traffic for rec.music.experimental is suggested by the following information. There are at least 300 informed supporters prepared to vote *YES* in the CFV election for the creation of rec.music.experimental. These supporters were gathered on various music newsgroups such as alt.music.sonic-youth, alt.music.techno, alt.noise, rec.music.ambient, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.hip-hop, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz, rec.music.progressive, and well established mailing lists such as 11111, c93, fluxlist, freenoise, minimalism, noise, nww, oddmusic, thewire, tmonk and ZBC_NCP. Each individual supporter suggested that they would be willing to vote *YES* in an email election for the creation of a newsgroup on Usenet named rec.music.experimental for the purposes outlined in the r.m.e. charter. Several Deja Usenet discussion power searches for the two month period of August 15, 2000 - October 15, 2000 were conducted, with a total average result of 49.3 on-topic posts per day. It should be noted that experimental music is not always referred to directly as "experimental" when discussing specific artists, therefore the actual average of on-topic posts may be greater than 49.3 posts per day. forum: *music* keyword: "experimental" results: 1542 matches average: 25.7 posts per day forum: *music* keyword: "free jazz" results: 122 matches average: 2 posts per day forum: rec.music.classical.contemporary keyword: "experimental" results: 20 matches average: .3 posts per day forum: rec.music.progressive keyword: "experimental" results: 123 matches average: 2 post per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "experimental" results: 147 matches average: 2.5 posts per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "noise" results: 666 matches average: 11.1 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "experimental" results: 109 matches average: 1.8 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "noise" results: 355 matches average: 5.9 posts per day And the last reason why you should vote yes for the creation of rec.music.experimental: Where would you look for experimental music in the record store (on-line or not) if there wasn't an experimental section, and where would you discuss experimental music on Usenet if there wasn't a newsgroup called rec.music.experimental? CHARTER: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental is an unmoderated forum for the discussion of sound works contained within the international experimental philosophy of music. For the purposes of this newsgroup, experimental music should generally be regarded as that which: a) Challenges the boundaries of the various traditions in which music is rooted. b) Establishes a new or novel approach to creating sounds which cannot be comfortably categorized in any of the standard genres. c) Or follows in the traditions of experimental music itself. Experimental music is a profound music movement with roots dating back to the early 20th Century (and earlier in theory), occasionally with ties to art group movements and scientific research. It is essentially a "non-genre genre", which resists the confines of strict definitions. Experimental music is more an attitude toward music or perception of sounds and music/sound concepts, whether creating or listening, than it is anything specific about song structure or sound style. Another important facet of experimental music is the use of non-traditional instruments and the invention of newfangled contraptions designed to create sound. However, an approximate working definition of experimental music is: Audio work which explores music traditions and discovers new perceptions of sound theories. This could refer simply to free jazz, harsh noise, electroacoustics or musique concrete, or less travelled ideas, such as symphonic improvisations played by trained monkeys, pop hits played with a typewriter and doorbell, industrial bluegrass turntablism, freestyle hip hop rapped backwards, jet engines with a ukulele melody and effected goat vocals, the sound of paint drying, or an infinite number of serious and/or sarcastic combinations and interpretations of all available sound sources in the known universe. Experimentalists consider all perceptible sound to be music, and as such are not limited by known music conventions when creating their compositions. Thus, experimental music is characteristically an area that draws together music from a variety of music genres and sociocultural contexts. A partial and incomplete listing of representative experimental artists and forms include: -- Blues/Jazz (Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Wm Parker, Derek Bailey, Capt. Beefheart) -- Classical/Concrete (Stockhausen, Cage, Xenakis, Satie, Pierre Henry) -- Minimalism/Ambient (LeMonte Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, Charlemagne Palestine, Pauline Oliveros) -- Rock/Punk (Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wound, early Butthole Surfers, some Sonic Youth) -- Noise/Scum (Merzbow, Whitehouse, Haters, Muslimgauze, Boredoms, Diamond Shamrock) -- Plunderphonics/Found Sound (John Oswald, Negativland, Evolution Control Committee, Lucas) -- Hip-hop/Techno (X-ecutioners, QBert, Peanut Butter Wolf, Gunter, Atari Teenage Riot) -- Folk/Country (Eugene Chadbourne, Mazzacane Connors, John Fahey) -- Instrument Builders (Harry Partch, Ellen Fullman, Donald Buchla, Harry Bertoia, Luigi Russolo, Survival Research Laboratories) -- Art Movements (Avant Garde, Futurism, Dada, Surrealism, Fluxus, Anti-Art) r.m.e. exists to facilitate discussions concerning these experimental traditions and the intriguing common space shared by boundary-challengers from these backgrounds. Any discussion of experimental music is welcome, including discussions about techniques and philosophies of creating and listening, reviews of current and past releases, playlists, concert listings and news. Introspective and critical discussion on topics such as "what makes a particular artist experimental?" is encouraged. Commercial postings directly related to the topic of experimental music are welcome only if done so occasionally and sparingly (no more than once per month). Off-topic (OT) posts will be tolerated only when tangentially related to experimental music (such as art/graffiti, video/film, science/technology), but should be kept to a minimum. Binaries are prohibited, except for PGP signatures and similar small binaries. If you have photos or sounds you wish to share with the group, please provide a link. The rec.music.experimental charter was created and compiled with material written by the group's original proponent, Brent Bruni Comiskey (eyedunno), and Daniel Bodah, with additional text by Colonel Panic, James Whitehead, Todd McComb and others. November 1, 2000 END CHARTER. IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest in reading the proposed newsgroup, and soliciting votes from uninterested parties defeats this purpose. Do *not* distribute this CFV; instead, direct people to the official CFV as posted to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing specific voting instructions or pre-marked copies of this CFV is considered vote fraud. This is a public vote: All email addresses, names and votes will be listed in the final RESULT post. The name used may be either a real name or an established Usenet handle. At most one vote is allowed per person or per account. Duplicate votes will be resolved in favor of the most recent valid vote. Voters must mail their ballots directly to the votetaker. Anonymous, forwarded, or proxy votes are not valid, nor are votes mailed from WWW/HTML/CGI forms (which should not exist). Votes from nonexistent accounts or with munged addresses are invalid and will not be counted. Please direct any questions to the votetaker at HOW TO VOTE: Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines. Don't worry about the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your reply inserts. Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me! Fill in the ballot as shown below. Please provide your real name (or established Usenet handle) and indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot. Examples of how to properly indicate your vote: [ YES ] example.yes.vote [ NO ] example.no.vote [ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention [ CANCEL ] example.cancellation DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot! If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot. When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < voting@uvv.wallaby.cc > Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line. If you do not receive an acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker about the problem. You are responsible for reading your ack and making sure your vote is registered correctly. If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv. ======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line ======= .----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: rec.music.experimental | Official Usenet Voting Ballot (Do not remove this line!) |----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Established | Usenet handles are also acceptable. Place ONLY your name (ie. do NOT | include your e-mail address or any other information; ONLY your name) | after the colon on the following line: Voter name: | Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each | newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name): Your Vote Newsgroup --------- ----------------------------------------------------------- [ ] rec.music.experimental ======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ============== POINTERS Pointers regarding this CFV may be mailed to the following mailing lists: 11111@egroups.com c93@egroups.com freenoise@egroups.com minimalism@egroups.com noise@egroups.com nww@egroups.com thewire@egroups.com tmonk@egroups.com ZPC_NCP@egroups.com zorn-list@lists.xmission.com and to the newsgroup: rec.music.bluenote and to the web discussion board at: http://www.allsound.org/ AND to a distribution list of over 100 friends of the proponent, who were all asked to "Please vote *YES*" and confirm to the proponent that their votes had been cast. rec.music.experimental Bounce List - Please contact me about your vote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Atro.Tossavainen@iki.fi.invalid Atro Tossavainen nja@leicester.ac.uk Andrew Norman This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Feb 6 1999). PQ datestamp: 980322 -- Voting address: voting@uvv.wallaby.cc From neilc@wallaby.cc Tue Mar 27 13:45:04 2001 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.music.techno,alt.noise,rec.music.ambient,rec.music.classical.contemporary,rec.music.industrial,rec.music.makers.jazz,rec.music.progressive Subject: RESULT: rec.music.experimental passes 219:17 Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <985728848.9556@isc.org> References: <971056170.11491@isc.org> <976665798.11531@isc.org> <982078034.25518@isc.org> <983408768.16619@isc.org> Supersedes: <983408768.16619@isc.org> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Archive-Name: rec.music.experimental Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:34:09 GMT Lines: 480 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11663 news.groups:375815 rec.music.ambient:50032 rec.music.classical.contemporary:23499 rec.music.industrial:377073 rec.music.makers.jazz:12807 rec.music.progressive:230516 RESULT unmoderated group rec.music.experimental passes 219:17 There were 219 YES votes and 17 NO votes, for a total of 236 valid votes. There were 3 abstentions and 7 invalid ballots. For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter. Newsgroups line: rec.music.experimental For the discussion of experimental music. The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 6 Mar 2001. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: eyedunno Votetaker: Neil Crellin VOTETAKER REMARKS As noted in the 2nd CFV notes, a CFV pointer was distributed by the proponent to a private list of over 100 email addresses that had been collected. That list was provided to the votetaker by the proponent, and in fact contained over 300 addresses. I have reviewed the list of addresses and compared it against the addresses that voted. It is my confident opinion that only approximately 75 of the addresses that voted correspond to individuals on the contact list, based on analysis of the names and addresses. My original intention was to contact these voters and ensure that they fully understood the nature of the vote and truly wished to read or participate in the group if created. Given the numbers, I do not consider that to be necessary. Even if there were reasons to disqualify all their votes (just for sake of the argument), the outcome of the vote would still be that the vote would pass and the group would be created. RATIONALE: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental will create a Usenet forum for the discussion of international experimental music as well as combine and unite discussion of experimental music found in several music newsgroups. The subject of experimental music is often off-topic in existing newsgroups where it is discussed because there is currently no single forum existing in the Big Eight hierarchy to discuss matters related to experimental music. rec.music.experimental will offer a single location and source devoted to the discussion of experimental music, instruments and concepts. Adequate interest and traffic for rec.music.experimental is suggested by the following information. There are at least 300 informed supporters prepared to vote *YES* in the CFV election for the creation of rec.music.experimental. These supporters were gathered on various music newsgroups such as alt.music.sonic-youth, alt.music.techno, alt.noise, rec.music.ambient, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.hip-hop, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz, rec.music.progressive, and well established mailing lists such as 11111, c93, fluxlist, freenoise, minimalism, noise, nww, oddmusic, thewire, tmonk and ZBC_NCP. Each individual supporter suggested that they would be willing to vote *YES* in an email election for the creation of a newsgroup on Usenet named rec.music.experimental for the purposes outlined in the r.m.e. charter. Several Deja Usenet discussion power searches for the two month period of August 15, 2000 - October 15, 2000 were conducted, with a total average result of 49.3 on-topic posts per day. It should be noted that experimental music is not always referred to directly as "experimental" when discussing specific artists, therefore the actual average of on-topic posts may be greater than 49.3 posts per day. forum: *music* keyword: "experimental" results: 1542 matches average: 25.7 posts per day forum: *music* keyword: "free jazz" results: 122 matches average: 2 posts per day forum: rec.music.classical.contemporary keyword: "experimental" results: 20 matches average: .3 posts per day forum: rec.music.progressive keyword: "experimental" results: 123 matches average: 2 post per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "experimental" results: 147 matches average: 2.5 posts per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "noise" results: 666 matches average: 11.1 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "experimental" results: 109 matches average: 1.8 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "noise" results: 355 matches average: 5.9 posts per day And the last reason why you should vote yes for the creation of rec.music.experimental: Where would you look for experimental music in the record store (on-line or not) if there wasn't an experimental section, and where would you discuss experimental music on Usenet if there wasn't a newsgroup called rec.music.experimental? CHARTER: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental is an unmoderated forum for the discussion of sound works contained within the international experimental philosophy of music. For the purposes of this newsgroup, experimental music should generally be regarded as that which: a) Challenges the boundaries of the various traditions in which music is rooted. b) Establishes a new or novel approach to creating sounds which cannot be comfortably categorized in any of the standard genres. c) Or follows in the traditions of experimental music itself. Experimental music is a profound music movement with roots dating back to the early 20th Century (and earlier in theory), occasionally with ties to art group movements and scientific research. It is essentially a "non-genre genre", which resists the confines of strict definitions. Experimental music is more an attitude toward music or perception of sounds and music/sound concepts, whether creating or listening, than it is anything specific about song structure or sound style. Another important facet of experimental music is the use of non-traditional instruments and the invention of newfangled contraptions designed to create sound. However, an approximate working definition of experimental music is: Audio work which explores music traditions and discovers new perceptions of sound theories. This could refer simply to free jazz, harsh noise, electroacoustics or musique concrete, or less travelled ideas, such as symphonic improvisations played by trained monkeys, pop hits played with a typewriter and doorbell, industrial bluegrass turntablism, freestyle hip hop rapped backwards, jet engines with a ukulele melody and effected goat vocals, the sound of paint drying, or an infinite number of serious and/or sarcastic combinations and interpretations of all available sound sources in the known universe. Experimentalists consider all perceptible sound to be music, and as such are not limited by known music conventions when creating their compositions. Thus, experimental music is characteristically an area that draws together music from a variety of music genres and sociocultural contexts. A partial and incomplete listing of representative experimental artists and forms include: -- Blues/Jazz (Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Wm Parker, Derek Bailey, Capt. Beefheart) -- Classical/Concrete (Stockhausen, Cage, Xenakis, Satie, Pierre Henry) -- Minimalism/Ambient (LeMonte Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, Charlemagne Palestine, Pauline Oliveros) -- Rock/Punk (Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wound, early Butthole Surfers, some Sonic Youth) -- Noise/Scum (Merzbow, Whitehouse, Haters, Muslimgauze, Boredoms, Diamond Shamrock) -- Plunderphonics/Found Sound (John Oswald, Negativland, Evolution Control Committee, Lucas) -- Hip-hop/Techno (X-ecutioners, QBert, Peanut Butter Wolf, Gunter, Atari Teenage Riot) -- Folk/Country (Eugene Chadbourne, Mazzacane Connors, John Fahey) -- Instrument Builders (Harry Partch, Ellen Fullman, Donald Buchla, Harry Bertoia, Luigi Russolo, Survival Research Laboratories) -- Art Movements (Avant Garde, Futurism, Dada, Surrealism, Fluxus, Anti-Art) r.m.e. exists to facilitate discussions concerning these experimental traditions and the intriguing common space shared by boundary-challengers from these backgrounds. Any discussion of experimental music is welcome, including discussions about techniques and philosophies of creating and listening, reviews of current and past releases, playlists, concert listings and news. Introspective and critical discussion on topics such as "what makes a particular artist experimental?" is encouraged. Commercial postings directly related to the topic of experimental music are welcome only if done so occasionally and sparingly (no more than once per month). Off-topic (OT) posts will be tolerated only when tangentially related to experimental music (such as art/graffiti, video/film, science/technology), but should be kept to a minimum. Binaries are prohibited, except for PGP signatures and similar small binaries. If you have photos or sounds you wish to share with the group, please provide a link. The rec.music.experimental charter was created and compiled with material written by the group's original proponent, Brent Bruni Comiskey (eyedunno), and Daniel Bodah, with additional text by Colonel Panic, James Whitehead, Todd McComb and others. November 1, 2000 END CHARTER. rec.music.experimental Final Voter list NOTE: This is not [to be used as] a mailing list. The email addresses are posted only to help verify the interest poll. Thank you. Voted YES ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ elric [at] zip.com.au Matthew Spong toivo [at] ucs.uwa.edu.au Toivo Pedaste jhicks [at] iinet.net.au Jeremy Hicks blair [at] netspace.net.au Blair Rideout sen [at] chello.be Sen ds525 [at] freenet.carleton.ca sundar subramanian nymh [at] freenet.carleton.ca nymh syl [at] alcor.concordia.ca Sylvain Robitaille miles [at] magma.ca Michael Iles cjsfmusc [at] sfu.ca Ed Blake eklektik [at] sympatico.ca Alain Gauthier dan.given [at] ualberta.ca Dan Given pm.carey [at] utoronto.ca Patrick Carey mtippett [at] uvic.ca Murray Tippett bidoche [at] bluewin.ch Bidoche Musique (Joe Fleury) stephane.vuilleumier [at] micro.biol.ethz.ch Stephane Vuilleumier abardelli [at] freesurf.ch Andrea BARDELLI DANIELI john [at] pleiades.8m.com John P Darcy Anatole40 [at] aol.com James Lindbloom AnthemT4E [at] aol.com Keith Dusoe Aphonik [at] aol.com Eric Witz Brennansf [at] aol.com Gerald E. Brennan Clusone [at] aol.com  Susan Fox CuneiWay [at] aol.com Steve Feigenbaum Dgasque [at] aol.com David A. Gasque dtohir [at] aol.com DTohir GoddardV [at] aol.com John Kasiewicz Haltapes1 [at] aol.com Hal McGee HarryEsq [at] aol.com IFeelPhree [at] aol.com Richard Gamble JonAbbey2 [at] aol.com Jon Abbey MHMartin [at] aol.com Matthew H. Martin microtonez [at] aol.com David Beardsley MpL7734 [at] aol.com M.P.Lockwood Oakiedog [at] aol.com David Katznelson PJRobertz [at] aol.com Paul Robertz thamiltn [at] aol.com Tom Hamilton TheDreamUnit [at] aol.com Veni Vidi Exii rshapiro [at] bbn.com R Shapiro dave_barker [at] bigpond.com Dave Barker mmrosa [at] bigpond.com Michal Rosa porjes [at] bigpond.com Peter Stephenson thomas.perrotin [at] americas.bnpparibas.com thomas perrotin legard [at] btinternet.com Phil legard philip.j.page [at] btinternet.com Philip Page rhysdavies [at] btinternet.com Rhys Davies fallen [at] ciaccess.com Jai Dietrich matti [at] devo.com Matti Köhler-Busch klaus [at] dnai.com Stephan Heilmayr
julesd [at] erols.com Jules Dubois herb [at] eskimo.com Herb Levy bcolflesh [at] eudoramail.com Brent Colflesh altmartinuk [at] excite.com Martin Paul deercrk [at] excite.com Bryan Herdman roelofs [at] f2s.com Mees Roelofs sergio.luque [at] flashmail.com Sergio Luque skot [at] hevanet.com SKot Kirkwood lounger [at] home.com Kilgore Trout sparrowhawk1 [at] home.com ANTHONY NARDI adamchao618 [at] hotmail.com adam j. le conte amenouveau [at] hotmail.com DAVID SCHMITZ nihilum33 [at] hotmail.com   Dan Keller

ooeeoo [at] hotmail.com Daniel McKernan pixiepuck [at] hotmail.com Paul Wroth solarlodge6 [at] hotmail.com Michael O'Connor whovines [at] hotmail.com Jon Wiens yiftissa [at] hotmail.com Yiftissa elodahl [at] ibsys.com Eric Lodahl justint [at] icolorado.com Justin Tomlinson duolagem [at] icqmail.com Nathan Espen donwa [at] icu.com DON SIGAL emoore [at] idiominc.com Eli K. Moore phalen180 [at] infin8ty.com phalen180 nirav [at] ink19.com Nirav Soni trioux [at] interbaun.com Tony Rioux ndallen [at] interlog.com Nigel Allen sonitus7 [at] juno.com Matthew St-Germain

stevedrury [at] mindspring.com Stephen Drury cmuberti [at] monmouth.com cmuberti tmstoudt [at] my-deja.com Tom Stoudt maha [at] neosoft.com Brent Bruni Comiskey salazar [at] ix.netcom.com Rick Salazar xibalba [at] no-fi.com Chris Barrus jeff [at] noisician.com Jeff Wrench sasha [at] noizguild.com NoizGuild fox [at] ntlworld.com fox random99 [at] ntlworld.com random99 littletoad [at] playful.com little toad ecc [at] pobox.com The Evolution Control Committee wolfram [at] poland.com Dominik Kowalczyk n7nt [at] primenet.com Richard Kendrick bcourter [at] ptc.com Blake Courter edwardp [at] rcn.com Edward P. Dittmer maenad [at] refinedclinicalresearch.com maenad dymaxia [at] ripco.com Kerry Keane tubaman [at] rocketmail.com Jerold Korinek mayday-imr [at] houston.rr.com = pozuga [at] houston.rr.com Carlos Pozo mraley [at] nc.rr.com Morgan Raley bzditch [at] sprynet.com John A. Hajeski Jonathan.Lefler [at] starwoodhotels.com Jonathan Lefler granvold [at] futhark.Eng.Sun.COM Tom Granvold hood [at] eng.sun.com Mark Hood pan [at] syix.com Pan benat2 [at] tamaqua.com Brett Banditelli ville.paukkonen [at] tecnomen.com Ville Paukkonen absinthe [at] teleport.com Colonel Panic jamesk [at] telisphere.com James Kirchmer dgromfin [at] telocity.com Danny Gromfin bob [at] threestrands.com Bob Troy [at] tipjar.com Troy Hewitt davidsen [at] tmr.com bill davidsen twakeford [at] tursa.com Tony Wakeford Kudra [at] valley2.valleyint.com Troy Date h [at] weirdness.com H. Figurine aleph [at] world.com Jose M. daLuz bradleybee [at] yahoo.com Brad Emrich incompleteness [at] yahoo.com Robb C midibeast [at] yahoo.com Tony Roney mjnja [at] yahoo.com minya rostasi [at] yahoo.com ROD STASICK spam2devnull [at] yahoo.com Andrew Wing starshipwreck [at] yahoo.com starshipwreck laughing [at] yourpain.com Dayv! michaelz [at] zoka.com Michael Zelner
annibale [at] dense.de Annibale Picicci cgarbers [at] gmx.de Christoph Garbers Ekkehard.Uthke [at] gmx.de Ekkehard Uthke scheyhing [at] snafu.de Dieter Scheyhing leo [at] tmt.de Andr=E9 Leopold Wolfram.Priess [at] rz.uni-jena.de Wolfram Priess schneide [at] phil.uni-passau.de Karl-Michael Schneider _Locke_ [at] web.de Locke bouvin [at] daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin fungus [at] OCF.Berkeley.EDU Hank Fung sth [at] andrew.cmu.edu Steve Hayashi reed [at] vision.eri.harvard.edu Reed Hedges jacobson [at] frodo.mgh.harvard.edu Nils Jacobson kortbein [at] iastate.edu Josh abpurvis [at] alumni.princeton.edu Arthur Purvis harv23 [at] Stanford.EDU Harvey Thornburg jcturner [at] mail.ucf.edu Jesse Turner twomblyk [at] Glue.umd.edu Kristian Mark Twombly jeff [at] rufinus.cs.widener.edu J Rufinus mjgoins [at] students.wisc.edu Matthew J. Goins wwschonb [at] artsci.wustl.edu Whit Schonbein Atro.Tossavainen [at] iki.fi Atro Tossavainen juskars [at] cc.jyu.fi Jussi Karsikas jari.kaukua [at] kvs.fi Jari Kaukua boubaker [at] cena.fr heddy Boubaker oger [at] worldnet.fr OGER lartis [at] ath.forthnet.gr Vincent Kargatis harvel [at] tarski.2y.net Michael Slone omz23 [at] airmail.net Joel Zoch greycube [at] artserve.net justin jaeckle lankina [at] att.net Alan Lankin rudy.carrera [at] worldnet.att.net Rudy A Carrera setai [at] worldnet.att.net Timothy Gross

ruinrocks [at] earthlink.net Tom Adams sdavmor [at] earthlink.net Steven Davies-Morris elleinad [at] elleinad.net elleinad brucelewis [at] mediaone.net = dgunning [at] mediaone.net Donald Gunning phatmike [at] apathy.ne.mediaone.net phat mike sitcom [at] mediaone.net jeremy tcm [at] nababs.net Timo Metzemakers alterhead [at] nacs.net Brian Alter shrao [at] nyx.net Shrisha Rao amanita [at] optonline.net Joseph Benzola donkeyrhubarb [at] sega.net

| Insert = ecook [at] simulated.net Eric Cook seth [at] tisue.net Seth Tisue santavenecia [at] uswest.net Mark Jung bb10k [at] velocity.net Rick Lopez arne [at] webon.net =?iso-8859-1?Q?Arne_L=F8ining?= liberte [at] bart.nl Libertus boud [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Boudewijn Rempt irina [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Irina Rempt kjellj [at] nfi.no Kjell R. Jenssen faulds [at] es.co.nz Stuart Brodie Faulds info [at] celebrityseries.org Jack Wright dana [at] codding.org Dana Codding umquam [at] unitee.dyndns.org Chris Fancsy witlox [at] freeshell.org Bob Witlox glennf [at] grfn.org Glenn Freeman paradive [at] industrial.org paradive nkoch [at] northnet.org Nathan Koch dgarcia [at] silentnoise.org Daniel Garcia/Sol3 fsb [at] thefsb.org Thomas Worster grindex [at] thegatesofhell.org pUkeRz mefju [at] venus.ci.uw.edu.pl Maciej Ostaszewski zimnyzenon [at] interia.pl Zenobiusz Zimny l43384 [at] alfa.ist.utl.pt Ricardo Reis zayats [at] sib3.ru Ilya S. Ivanov fhaevirr [at] hem.passagen.se Ingmar Wennerberg justin [at] DoCS.UU.SE Justin Pearson Simon.Licen [at] guest.arnes.si Simon Licen gtp10 [at] cus.cam.ac.uk Geoff Parks s.e.nte [at] keele.ac.uk Sol Nte jliat [at] jliat.demon.co.uk James Whitehead alfred [at] ellaguru.freeserve.co.uk Alfred Armstrong gask [at] findo.freeserve.co.uk GASK andrew [at] pnoom.freeserve.co.uk Andrew Cox dan [at] state51.co.uk daniel hill progmap [at] yahoo.co.uk ProgMAP andy.roberts [at] zetnet.co.uk Andy Roberts Voted NO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sj_evans21 [at] yahoo.com.au Sydney James Evans yan [at] storm.ca Yves Bellefeuille LMcmil2586 [at] aol.com Jeremy McMillan kimdv [at] best.com Kim DeVaughn stainles [at] bga.com Dwight Brown amanda_dusting [at] hotmail.com Amanda Jane Dusting gprrspw [at] mindspring.com G.P. Ryan ra3035 [at] email.sps.mot.com Michael Porter (of GAMBIT) fran_keeling [at] my-deja.com Frances Margan Keeling naddy [at] mips.inka.de Christian Weisgerber amcmicha [at] Princeton.EDU Andrew McMichael meg [at] Steam.Stanford.EDU meg worley rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller thor [at] anta.net Thor Kottelin vote-rec.music.experimental [at] newton.digitalspace.net Philip Newton votefraud [at] pyrophore.ogoense.net UVV af.news [at] etrigan.org Alan Fleming Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ mcclenon [at] erols.com Bob McClenon aahz [at] pobox.com Aahz mmontcha [at] OregonVOS.net Matthew Montchalin Invalid votes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ phil.turnbull [at] acnielsen.com.au philT ! Voted twice, both votes disallowed admin [at] bbsdaze.com Joshua Warren ! Ineligible address pturnbul [at] bigpond.com Phil Turnbull ! Voted twice, both votes disallowed markvj [at] spammenothotmail.com M. Jung ! Invalid address: votetaker demunging flexibility revoked by whiners dbryce [at] texplas.com Doug Bryce ! No vote statement in message minorseventhSPAMBLOCK [at] earthlink.net Jim Kroger ! Invalid address: votetaker demunging flexibility revoked by whiners nja [at] leicester.ac.uk Andrew Norman ! Undeliverable address: 550 rejected: administrative prohibition -- Neil Crellin, UVV From neilc@wallaby.cc Wed Mar 28 11:45:03 2001 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.music.techno,alt.noise,rec.music.ambient,rec.music.classical.contemporary,rec.music.industrial,rec.music.makers.jazz,rec.music.progressive Subject: RESULT: rec.music.experimental passes 219:17 Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <985808418.14982@isc.org> References: <971056170.11491@isc.org> <976665798.11531@isc.org> <982078034.25518@isc.org> <983408768.16619@isc.org> Supersedes: <983408768.16619@isc.org> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Archive-Name: rec.music.experimental Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:40:20 GMT Lines: 480 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11664 news.groups:375829 rec.music.ambient:50040 rec.music.classical.contemporary:23501 rec.music.industrial:377173 rec.music.makers.jazz:12815 rec.music.progressive:230587 RESULT unmoderated group rec.music.experimental passes 219:17 There were 219 YES votes and 17 NO votes, for a total of 236 valid votes. There were 3 abstentions and 7 invalid ballots. For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter. Newsgroups line: rec.music.experimental For the discussion of experimental music. The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 6 Mar 2001. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: eyedunno Votetaker: Neil Crellin VOTETAKER REMARKS As noted in the 2nd CFV notes, a CFV pointer was distributed by the proponent to a private list of over 100 email addresses that had been collected. That list was provided to the votetaker by the proponent, and in fact contained over 300 addresses. I have reviewed the list of addresses and compared it against the addresses that voted. It is my confident opinion that only approximately 75 of the addresses that voted correspond to individuals on the contact list, based on analysis of the names and addresses. My original intention was to contact these voters and ensure that they fully understood the nature of the vote and truly wished to read or participate in the group if created. Given the numbers, I do not consider that to be necessary. Even if there were reasons to disqualify all their votes (just for sake of the argument), the outcome of the vote would still be that the vote would pass and the group would be created. RATIONALE: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental will create a Usenet forum for the discussion of international experimental music as well as combine and unite discussion of experimental music found in several music newsgroups. The subject of experimental music is often off-topic in existing newsgroups where it is discussed because there is currently no single forum existing in the Big Eight hierarchy to discuss matters related to experimental music. rec.music.experimental will offer a single location and source devoted to the discussion of experimental music, instruments and concepts. Adequate interest and traffic for rec.music.experimental is suggested by the following information. There are at least 300 informed supporters prepared to vote *YES* in the CFV election for the creation of rec.music.experimental. These supporters were gathered on various music newsgroups such as alt.music.sonic-youth, alt.music.techno, alt.noise, rec.music.ambient, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.hip-hop, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz, rec.music.progressive, and well established mailing lists such as 11111, c93, fluxlist, freenoise, minimalism, noise, nww, oddmusic, thewire, tmonk and ZBC_NCP. Each individual supporter suggested that they would be willing to vote *YES* in an email election for the creation of a newsgroup on Usenet named rec.music.experimental for the purposes outlined in the r.m.e. charter. Several Deja Usenet discussion power searches for the two month period of August 15, 2000 - October 15, 2000 were conducted, with a total average result of 49.3 on-topic posts per day. It should be noted that experimental music is not always referred to directly as "experimental" when discussing specific artists, therefore the actual average of on-topic posts may be greater than 49.3 posts per day. forum: *music* keyword: "experimental" results: 1542 matches average: 25.7 posts per day forum: *music* keyword: "free jazz" results: 122 matches average: 2 posts per day forum: rec.music.classical.contemporary keyword: "experimental" results: 20 matches average: .3 posts per day forum: rec.music.progressive keyword: "experimental" results: 123 matches average: 2 post per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "experimental" results: 147 matches average: 2.5 posts per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "noise" results: 666 matches average: 11.1 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "experimental" results: 109 matches average: 1.8 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "noise" results: 355 matches average: 5.9 posts per day And the last reason why you should vote yes for the creation of rec.music.experimental: Where would you look for experimental music in the record store (on-line or not) if there wasn't an experimental section, and where would you discuss experimental music on Usenet if there wasn't a newsgroup called rec.music.experimental? CHARTER: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental is an unmoderated forum for the discussion of sound works contained within the international experimental philosophy of music. For the purposes of this newsgroup, experimental music should generally be regarded as that which: a) Challenges the boundaries of the various traditions in which music is rooted. b) Establishes a new or novel approach to creating sounds which cannot be comfortably categorized in any of the standard genres. c) Or follows in the traditions of experimental music itself. Experimental music is a profound music movement with roots dating back to the early 20th Century (and earlier in theory), occasionally with ties to art group movements and scientific research. It is essentially a "non-genre genre", which resists the confines of strict definitions. Experimental music is more an attitude toward music or perception of sounds and music/sound concepts, whether creating or listening, than it is anything specific about song structure or sound style. Another important facet of experimental music is the use of non-traditional instruments and the invention of newfangled contraptions designed to create sound. However, an approximate working definition of experimental music is: Audio work which explores music traditions and discovers new perceptions of sound theories. This could refer simply to free jazz, harsh noise, electroacoustics or musique concrete, or less travelled ideas, such as symphonic improvisations played by trained monkeys, pop hits played with a typewriter and doorbell, industrial bluegrass turntablism, freestyle hip hop rapped backwards, jet engines with a ukulele melody and effected goat vocals, the sound of paint drying, or an infinite number of serious and/or sarcastic combinations and interpretations of all available sound sources in the known universe. Experimentalists consider all perceptible sound to be music, and as such are not limited by known music conventions when creating their compositions. Thus, experimental music is characteristically an area that draws together music from a variety of music genres and sociocultural contexts. A partial and incomplete listing of representative experimental artists and forms include: -- Blues/Jazz (Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Wm Parker, Derek Bailey, Capt. Beefheart) -- Classical/Concrete (Stockhausen, Cage, Xenakis, Satie, Pierre Henry) -- Minimalism/Ambient (LeMonte Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, Charlemagne Palestine, Pauline Oliveros) -- Rock/Punk (Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wound, early Butthole Surfers, some Sonic Youth) -- Noise/Scum (Merzbow, Whitehouse, Haters, Muslimgauze, Boredoms, Diamond Shamrock) -- Plunderphonics/Found Sound (John Oswald, Negativland, Evolution Control Committee, Lucas) -- Hip-hop/Techno (X-ecutioners, QBert, Peanut Butter Wolf, Gunter, Atari Teenage Riot) -- Folk/Country (Eugene Chadbourne, Mazzacane Connors, John Fahey) -- Instrument Builders (Harry Partch, Ellen Fullman, Donald Buchla, Harry Bertoia, Luigi Russolo, Survival Research Laboratories) -- Art Movements (Avant Garde, Futurism, Dada, Surrealism, Fluxus, Anti-Art) r.m.e. exists to facilitate discussions concerning these experimental traditions and the intriguing common space shared by boundary-challengers from these backgrounds. Any discussion of experimental music is welcome, including discussions about techniques and philosophies of creating and listening, reviews of current and past releases, playlists, concert listings and news. Introspective and critical discussion on topics such as "what makes a particular artist experimental?" is encouraged. Commercial postings directly related to the topic of experimental music are welcome only if done so occasionally and sparingly (no more than once per month). Off-topic (OT) posts will be tolerated only when tangentially related to experimental music (such as art/graffiti, video/film, science/technology), but should be kept to a minimum. Binaries are prohibited, except for PGP signatures and similar small binaries. If you have photos or sounds you wish to share with the group, please provide a link. The rec.music.experimental charter was created and compiled with material written by the group's original proponent, Brent Bruni Comiskey (eyedunno), and Daniel Bodah, with additional text by Colonel Panic, James Whitehead, Todd McComb and others. November 1, 2000 END CHARTER. rec.music.experimental Final Voter list NOTE: This is not [to be used as] a mailing list. The email addresses are posted only to help verify the interest poll. Thank you. Voted YES ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ elric [at] zip.com.au Matthew Spong toivo [at] ucs.uwa.edu.au Toivo Pedaste jhicks [at] iinet.net.au Jeremy Hicks blair [at] netspace.net.au Blair Rideout sen [at] chello.be Sen ds525 [at] freenet.carleton.ca sundar subramanian nymh [at] freenet.carleton.ca nymh syl [at] alcor.concordia.ca Sylvain Robitaille miles [at] magma.ca Michael Iles cjsfmusc [at] sfu.ca Ed Blake eklektik [at] sympatico.ca Alain Gauthier dan.given [at] ualberta.ca Dan Given pm.carey [at] utoronto.ca Patrick Carey mtippett [at] uvic.ca Murray Tippett bidoche [at] bluewin.ch Bidoche Musique (Joe Fleury) stephane.vuilleumier [at] micro.biol.ethz.ch Stephane Vuilleumier abardelli [at] freesurf.ch Andrea BARDELLI DANIELI john [at] pleiades.8m.com John P Darcy Anatole40 [at] aol.com James Lindbloom AnthemT4E [at] aol.com Keith Dusoe Aphonik [at] aol.com Eric Witz Brennansf [at] aol.com Gerald E. Brennan Clusone [at] aol.com  Susan Fox CuneiWay [at] aol.com Steve Feigenbaum Dgasque [at] aol.com David A. Gasque dtohir [at] aol.com DTohir GoddardV [at] aol.com John Kasiewicz Haltapes1 [at] aol.com Hal McGee HarryEsq [at] aol.com IFeelPhree [at] aol.com Richard Gamble JonAbbey2 [at] aol.com Jon Abbey MHMartin [at] aol.com Matthew H. Martin microtonez [at] aol.com David Beardsley MpL7734 [at] aol.com M.P.Lockwood Oakiedog [at] aol.com David Katznelson PJRobertz [at] aol.com Paul Robertz thamiltn [at] aol.com Tom Hamilton TheDreamUnit [at] aol.com Veni Vidi Exii rshapiro [at] bbn.com R Shapiro dave_barker [at] bigpond.com Dave Barker mmrosa [at] bigpond.com Michal Rosa porjes [at] bigpond.com Peter Stephenson thomas.perrotin [at] americas.bnpparibas.com thomas perrotin legard [at] btinternet.com Phil legard philip.j.page [at] btinternet.com Philip Page rhysdavies [at] btinternet.com Rhys Davies fallen [at] ciaccess.com Jai Dietrich matti [at] devo.com Matti Kohler-Busch klaus [at] dnai.com Stephan Heilmayr
julesd [at] erols.com Jules Dubois herb [at] eskimo.com Herb Levy bcolflesh [at] eudoramail.com Brent Colflesh altmartinuk [at] excite.com Martin Paul deercrk [at] excite.com Bryan Herdman roelofs [at] f2s.com Mees Roelofs sergio.luque [at] flashmail.com Sergio Luque skot [at] hevanet.com SKot Kirkwood lounger [at] home.com Kilgore Trout sparrowhawk1 [at] home.com ANTHONY NARDI adamchao618 [at] hotmail.com adam j. le conte amenouveau [at] hotmail.com DAVID SCHMITZ nihilum33 [at] hotmail.com   Dan Keller

ooeeoo [at] hotmail.com Daniel McKernan pixiepuck [at] hotmail.com Paul Wroth solarlodge6 [at] hotmail.com Michael O'Connor whovines [at] hotmail.com Jon Wiens yiftissa [at] hotmail.com Yiftissa elodahl [at] ibsys.com Eric Lodahl justint [at] icolorado.com Justin Tomlinson duolagem [at] icqmail.com Nathan Espen donwa [at] icu.com DON SIGAL emoore [at] idiominc.com Eli K. Moore phalen180 [at] infin8ty.com phalen180 nirav [at] ink19.com Nirav Soni trioux [at] interbaun.com Tony Rioux ndallen [at] interlog.com Nigel Allen sonitus7 [at] juno.com Matthew St-Germain

stevedrury [at] mindspring.com Stephen Drury cmuberti [at] monmouth.com cmuberti tmstoudt [at] my-deja.com Tom Stoudt maha [at] neosoft.com Brent Bruni Comiskey salazar [at] ix.netcom.com Rick Salazar xibalba [at] no-fi.com Chris Barrus jeff [at] noisician.com Jeff Wrench sasha [at] noizguild.com NoizGuild fox [at] ntlworld.com fox random99 [at] ntlworld.com random99 littletoad [at] playful.com little toad ecc [at] pobox.com The Evolution Control Committee wolfram [at] poland.com Dominik Kowalczyk n7nt [at] primenet.com Richard Kendrick bcourter [at] ptc.com Blake Courter edwardp [at] rcn.com Edward P. Dittmer maenad [at] refinedclinicalresearch.com maenad dymaxia [at] ripco.com Kerry Keane tubaman [at] rocketmail.com Jerold Korinek mayday-imr [at] houston.rr.com = pozuga [at] houston.rr.com Carlos Pozo mraley [at] nc.rr.com Morgan Raley bzditch [at] sprynet.com John A. Hajeski Jonathan.Lefler [at] starwoodhotels.com Jonathan Lefler granvold [at] futhark.Eng.Sun.COM Tom Granvold hood [at] eng.sun.com Mark Hood pan [at] syix.com Pan benat2 [at] tamaqua.com Brett Banditelli ville.paukkonen [at] tecnomen.com Ville Paukkonen absinthe [at] teleport.com Colonel Panic jamesk [at] telisphere.com James Kirchmer dgromfin [at] telocity.com Danny Gromfin bob [at] threestrands.com Bob Troy [at] tipjar.com Troy Hewitt davidsen [at] tmr.com bill davidsen twakeford [at] tursa.com Tony Wakeford Kudra [at] valley2.valleyint.com Troy Date h [at] weirdness.com H. Figurine aleph [at] world.com Jose M. daLuz bradleybee [at] yahoo.com Brad Emrich incompleteness [at] yahoo.com Robb C midibeast [at] yahoo.com Tony Roney mjnja [at] yahoo.com minya rostasi [at] yahoo.com ROD STASICK spam2devnull [at] yahoo.com Andrew Wing starshipwreck [at] yahoo.com starshipwreck laughing [at] yourpain.com Dayv! michaelz [at] zoka.com Michael Zelner
annibale [at] dense.de Annibale Picicci cgarbers [at] gmx.de Christoph Garbers Ekkehard.Uthke [at] gmx.de Ekkehard Uthke scheyhing [at] snafu.de Dieter Scheyhing leo [at] tmt.de Andr=E9 Leopold Wolfram.Priess [at] rz.uni-jena.de Wolfram Priess schneide [at] phil.uni-passau.de Karl-Michael Schneider _Locke_ [at] web.de Locke bouvin [at] daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin fungus [at] OCF.Berkeley.EDU Hank Fung sth [at] andrew.cmu.edu Steve Hayashi reed [at] vision.eri.harvard.edu Reed Hedges jacobson [at] frodo.mgh.harvard.edu Nils Jacobson kortbein [at] iastate.edu Josh abpurvis [at] alumni.princeton.edu Arthur Purvis harv23 [at] Stanford.EDU Harvey Thornburg jcturner [at] mail.ucf.edu Jesse Turner twomblyk [at] Glue.umd.edu Kristian Mark Twombly jeff [at] rufinus.cs.widener.edu J Rufinus mjgoins [at] students.wisc.edu Matthew J. Goins wwschonb [at] artsci.wustl.edu Whit Schonbein Atro.Tossavainen [at] iki.fi Atro Tossavainen juskars [at] cc.jyu.fi Jussi Karsikas jari.kaukua [at] kvs.fi Jari Kaukua boubaker [at] cena.fr heddy Boubaker oger [at] worldnet.fr OGER lartis [at] ath.forthnet.gr Vincent Kargatis harvel [at] tarski.2y.net Michael Slone omz23 [at] airmail.net Joel Zoch greycube [at] artserve.net justin jaeckle lankina [at] att.net Alan Lankin rudy.carrera [at] worldnet.att.net Rudy A Carrera setai [at] worldnet.att.net Timothy Gross

ruinrocks [at] earthlink.net Tom Adams sdavmor [at] earthlink.net Steven Davies-Morris elleinad [at] elleinad.net elleinad brucelewis [at] mediaone.net = dgunning [at] mediaone.net Donald Gunning phatmike [at] apathy.ne.mediaone.net phat mike sitcom [at] mediaone.net jeremy tcm [at] nababs.net Timo Metzemakers alterhead [at] nacs.net Brian Alter shrao [at] nyx.net Shrisha Rao amanita [at] optonline.net Joseph Benzola donkeyrhubarb [at] sega.net

| Insert = ecook [at] simulated.net Eric Cook seth [at] tisue.net Seth Tisue santavenecia [at] uswest.net Mark Jung bb10k [at] velocity.net Rick Lopez arne [at] webon.net =?iso-8859-1?Q?Arne_L=F8ining?= liberte [at] bart.nl Libertus boud [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Boudewijn Rempt irina [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Irina Rempt kjellj [at] nfi.no Kjell R. Jenssen faulds [at] es.co.nz Stuart Brodie Faulds info [at] celebrityseries.org Jack Wright dana [at] codding.org Dana Codding umquam [at] unitee.dyndns.org Chris Fancsy witlox [at] freeshell.org Bob Witlox glennf [at] grfn.org Glenn Freeman paradive [at] industrial.org paradive nkoch [at] northnet.org Nathan Koch dgarcia [at] silentnoise.org Daniel Garcia/Sol3 fsb [at] thefsb.org Thomas Worster grindex [at] thegatesofhell.org pUkeRz mefju [at] venus.ci.uw.edu.pl Maciej Ostaszewski zimnyzenon [at] interia.pl Zenobiusz Zimny l43384 [at] alfa.ist.utl.pt Ricardo Reis zayats [at] sib3.ru Ilya S. Ivanov fhaevirr [at] hem.passagen.se Ingmar Wennerberg justin [at] DoCS.UU.SE Justin Pearson Simon.Licen [at] guest.arnes.si Simon Licen gtp10 [at] cus.cam.ac.uk Geoff Parks s.e.nte [at] keele.ac.uk Sol Nte jliat [at] jliat.demon.co.uk James Whitehead alfred [at] ellaguru.freeserve.co.uk Alfred Armstrong gask [at] findo.freeserve.co.uk GASK andrew [at] pnoom.freeserve.co.uk Andrew Cox dan [at] state51.co.uk daniel hill progmap [at] yahoo.co.uk ProgMAP andy.roberts [at] zetnet.co.uk Andy Roberts Voted NO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sj_evans21 [at] yahoo.com.au Sydney James Evans yan [at] storm.ca Yves Bellefeuille LMcmil2586 [at] aol.com Jeremy McMillan kimdv [at] best.com Kim DeVaughn stainles [at] bga.com Dwight Brown amanda_dusting [at] hotmail.com Amanda Jane Dusting gprrspw [at] mindspring.com G.P. Ryan ra3035 [at] email.sps.mot.com Michael Porter (of GAMBIT) fran_keeling [at] my-deja.com Frances Margan Keeling naddy [at] mips.inka.de Christian Weisgerber amcmicha [at] Princeton.EDU Andrew McMichael meg [at] Steam.Stanford.EDU meg worley rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller thor [at] anta.net Thor Kottelin vote-rec.music.experimental [at] newton.digitalspace.net Philip Newton votefraud [at] pyrophore.ogoense.net UVV af.news [at] etrigan.org Alan Fleming Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ mcclenon [at] erols.com Bob McClenon aahz [at] pobox.com Aahz mmontcha [at] OregonVOS.net Matthew Montchalin Invalid votes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ phil.turnbull [at] acnielsen.com.au philT ! Voted twice, both votes disallowed admin [at] bbsdaze.com Joshua Warren ! Ineligible address pturnbul [at] bigpond.com Phil Turnbull ! Voted twice, both votes disallowed markvj [at] spammenothotmail.com M. Jung ! Invalid address: votetaker demunging flexibility revoked by whiners dbryce [at] texplas.com Doug Bryce ! No vote statement in message minorseventhSPAMBLOCK [at] earthlink.net Jim Kroger ! Invalid address: votetaker demunging flexibility revoked by whiners nja [at] leicester.ac.uk Andrew Norman ! Undeliverable address: 550 rejected: administrative prohibition -- Neil Crellin, UVV From neilc@wallaby.cc Fri Mar 30 10:30:03 2001 Path: news.isc.org!bounce-back From: Neil Crellin Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.music.techno,alt.noise,rec.music.ambient,rec.music.classical.contemporary,rec.music.industrial,rec.music.makers.jazz,rec.music.progressive Subject: RESULT: rec.music.experimental passes 219:17 Followup-To: news.groups Message-ID: <985976817.22668@isc.org> References: <971056170.11491@isc.org> <976665798.11531@isc.org> <982078034.25518@isc.org> <983408768.16619@isc.org> Supersedes: <983408768.16619@isc.org> Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org Archive-Name: rec.music.experimental Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:26:58 GMT Lines: 480 Xref: news.isc.org news.announce.newgroups:11665 news.groups:375850 rec.music.ambient:50057 rec.music.classical.contemporary:23521 rec.music.industrial:377423 rec.music.makers.jazz:12835 rec.music.progressive:230830 RESULT unmoderated group rec.music.experimental passes 219:17 There were 219 YES votes and 17 NO votes, for a total of 236 valid votes. There were 3 abstentions and 7 invalid ballots. For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. A five day discussion period follows this announcement. If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter. Newsgroups line: rec.music.experimental For the discussion of experimental music. The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 6 Mar 2001. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent. Proponent: eyedunno Votetaker: Neil Crellin VOTETAKER REMARKS As noted in the 2nd CFV notes, a CFV pointer was distributed by the proponent to a private list of over 100 email addresses that had been collected. That list was provided to the votetaker by the proponent, and in fact contained over 300 addresses. I have reviewed the list of addresses and compared it against the addresses that voted. It is my confident opinion that only approximately 75 of the addresses that voted correspond to individuals on the contact list, based on analysis of the names and addresses. My original intention was to contact these voters and ensure that they fully understood the nature of the vote and truly wished to read or participate in the group if created. Given the numbers, I do not consider that to be necessary. Even if there were reasons to disqualify all their votes (just for sake of the argument), the outcome of the vote would still be that the vote would pass and the group would be created. RATIONALE: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental will create a Usenet forum for the discussion of international experimental music as well as combine and unite discussion of experimental music found in several music newsgroups. The subject of experimental music is often off-topic in existing newsgroups where it is discussed because there is currently no single forum existing in the Big Eight hierarchy to discuss matters related to experimental music. rec.music.experimental will offer a single location and source devoted to the discussion of experimental music, instruments and concepts. Adequate interest and traffic for rec.music.experimental is suggested by the following information. There are at least 300 informed supporters prepared to vote *YES* in the CFV election for the creation of rec.music.experimental. These supporters were gathered on various music newsgroups such as alt.music.sonic-youth, alt.music.techno, alt.noise, rec.music.ambient, rec.music.classical.contemporary, rec.music.hip-hop, rec.music.industrial, rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz, rec.music.progressive, and well established mailing lists such as 11111, c93, fluxlist, freenoise, minimalism, noise, nww, oddmusic, thewire, tmonk and ZBC_NCP. Each individual supporter suggested that they would be willing to vote *YES* in an email election for the creation of a newsgroup on Usenet named rec.music.experimental for the purposes outlined in the r.m.e. charter. Several Deja Usenet discussion power searches for the two month period of August 15, 2000 - October 15, 2000 were conducted, with a total average result of 49.3 on-topic posts per day. It should be noted that experimental music is not always referred to directly as "experimental" when discussing specific artists, therefore the actual average of on-topic posts may be greater than 49.3 posts per day. forum: *music* keyword: "experimental" results: 1542 matches average: 25.7 posts per day forum: *music* keyword: "free jazz" results: 122 matches average: 2 posts per day forum: rec.music.classical.contemporary keyword: "experimental" results: 20 matches average: .3 posts per day forum: rec.music.progressive keyword: "experimental" results: 123 matches average: 2 post per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "experimental" results: 147 matches average: 2.5 posts per day forum: rec.music.industrial keyword: "noise" results: 666 matches average: 11.1 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "experimental" results: 109 matches average: 1.8 posts per day forum: alt.noise keyword: "noise" results: 355 matches average: 5.9 posts per day And the last reason why you should vote yes for the creation of rec.music.experimental: Where would you look for experimental music in the record store (on-line or not) if there wasn't an experimental section, and where would you discuss experimental music on Usenet if there wasn't a newsgroup called rec.music.experimental? CHARTER: rec.music.experimental rec.music.experimental is an unmoderated forum for the discussion of sound works contained within the international experimental philosophy of music. For the purposes of this newsgroup, experimental music should generally be regarded as that which: a) Challenges the boundaries of the various traditions in which music is rooted. b) Establishes a new or novel approach to creating sounds which cannot be comfortably categorized in any of the standard genres. c) Or follows in the traditions of experimental music itself. Experimental music is a profound music movement with roots dating back to the early 20th Century (and earlier in theory), occasionally with ties to art group movements and scientific research. It is essentially a "non-genre genre", which resists the confines of strict definitions. Experimental music is more an attitude toward music or perception of sounds and music/sound concepts, whether creating or listening, than it is anything specific about song structure or sound style. Another important facet of experimental music is the use of non-traditional instruments and the invention of newfangled contraptions designed to create sound. However, an approximate working definition of experimental music is: Audio work which explores music traditions and discovers new perceptions of sound theories. This could refer simply to free jazz, harsh noise, electroacoustics or musique concrete, or less travelled ideas, such as symphonic improvisations played by trained monkeys, pop hits played with a typewriter and doorbell, industrial bluegrass turntablism, freestyle hip hop rapped backwards, jet engines with a ukulele melody and effected goat vocals, the sound of paint drying, or an infinite number of serious and/or sarcastic combinations and interpretations of all available sound sources in the known universe. Experimentalists consider all perceptible sound to be music, and as such are not limited by known music conventions when creating their compositions. Thus, experimental music is characteristically an area that draws together music from a variety of music genres and sociocultural contexts. A partial and incomplete listing of representative experimental artists and forms include: -- Blues/Jazz (Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Wm Parker, Derek Bailey, Capt. Beefheart) -- Classical/Concrete (Stockhausen, Cage, Xenakis, Satie, Pierre Henry) -- Minimalism/Ambient (LeMonte Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, Charlemagne Palestine, Pauline Oliveros) -- Rock/Punk (Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wound, early Butthole Surfers, some Sonic Youth) -- Noise/Scum (Merzbow, Whitehouse, Haters, Muslimgauze, Boredoms, Diamond Shamrock) -- Plunderphonics/Found Sound (John Oswald, Negativland, Evolution Control Committee, Lucas) -- Hip-hop/Techno (X-ecutioners, QBert, Peanut Butter Wolf, Gunter, Atari Teenage Riot) -- Folk/Country (Eugene Chadbourne, Mazzacane Connors, John Fahey) -- Instrument Builders (Harry Partch, Ellen Fullman, Donald Buchla, Harry Bertoia, Luigi Russolo, Survival Research Laboratories) -- Art Movements (Avant Garde, Futurism, Dada, Surrealism, Fluxus, Anti-Art) r.m.e. exists to facilitate discussions concerning these experimental traditions and the intriguing common space shared by boundary-challengers from these backgrounds. Any discussion of experimental music is welcome, including discussions about techniques and philosophies of creating and listening, reviews of current and past releases, playlists, concert listings and news. Introspective and critical discussion on topics such as "what makes a particular artist experimental?" is encouraged. Commercial postings directly related to the topic of experimental music are welcome only if done so occasionally and sparingly (no more than once per month). Off-topic (OT) posts will be tolerated only when tangentially related to experimental music (such as art/graffiti, video/film, science/technology), but should be kept to a minimum. Binaries are prohibited, except for PGP signatures and similar small binaries. If you have photos or sounds you wish to share with the group, please provide a link. The rec.music.experimental charter was created and compiled with material written by the group's original proponent, Brent Bruni Comiskey (eyedunno), and Daniel Bodah, with additional text by Colonel Panic, James Whitehead, Todd McComb and others. November 1, 2000 END CHARTER. rec.music.experimental Final Voter list NOTE: This is not [to be used as] a mailing list. The email addresses are posted only to help verify the interest poll. Thank you. Voted YES ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ elric [at] zip.com.au Matthew Spong toivo [at] ucs.uwa.edu.au Toivo Pedaste jhicks [at] iinet.net.au Jeremy Hicks blair [at] netspace.net.au Blair Rideout sen [at] chello.be Sen ds525 [at] freenet.carleton.ca sundar subramanian nymh [at] freenet.carleton.ca nymh syl [at] alcor.concordia.ca Sylvain Robitaille miles [at] magma.ca Michael Iles cjsfmusc [at] sfu.ca Ed Blake eklektik [at] sympatico.ca Alain Gauthier dan.given [at] ualberta.ca Dan Given pm.carey [at] utoronto.ca Patrick Carey mtippett [at] uvic.ca Murray Tippett bidoche [at] bluewin.ch Bidoche Musique (Joe Fleury) stephane.vuilleumier [at] micro.biol.ethz.ch Stephane Vuilleumier abardelli [at] freesurf.ch Andrea BARDELLI DANIELI john [at] pleiades.8m.com John P Darcy Anatole40 [at] aol.com James Lindbloom AnthemT4E [at] aol.com Keith Dusoe Aphonik [at] aol.com Eric Witz Brennansf [at] aol.com Gerald E. Brennan Clusone [at] aol.com Susan Fox CuneiWay [at] aol.com Steve Feigenbaum Dgasque [at] aol.com David A. Gasque dtohir [at] aol.com DTohir GoddardV [at] aol.com John Kasiewicz Haltapes1 [at] aol.com Hal McGee HarryEsq [at] aol.com IFeelPhree [at] aol.com Richard Gamble JonAbbey2 [at] aol.com Jon Abbey MHMartin [at] aol.com Matthew H. Martin microtonez [at] aol.com David Beardsley MpL7734 [at] aol.com M.P.Lockwood Oakiedog [at] aol.com David Katznelson PJRobertz [at] aol.com Paul Robertz thamiltn [at] aol.com Tom Hamilton TheDreamUnit [at] aol.com Veni Vidi Exii rshapiro [at] bbn.com R Shapiro dave_barker [at] bigpond.com Dave Barker mmrosa [at] bigpond.com Michal Rosa porjes [at] bigpond.com Peter Stephenson thomas.perrotin [at] americas.bnpparibas.com thomas perrotin legard [at] btinternet.com Phil legard philip.j.page [at] btinternet.com Philip Page rhysdavies [at] btinternet.com Rhys Davies fallen [at] ciaccess.com Jai Dietrich matti [at] devo.com Matti Kohler-Busch klaus [at] dnai.com Stephan Heilmayr julesd [at] erols.com Jules Dubois herb [at] eskimo.com Herb Levy bcolflesh [at] eudoramail.com Brent Colflesh altmartinuk [at] excite.com Martin Paul deercrk [at] excite.com Bryan Herdman roelofs [at] f2s.com Mees Roelofs sergio.luque [at] flashmail.com Sergio Luque skot [at] hevanet.com SKot Kirkwood lounger [at] home.com Kilgore Trout sparrowhawk1 [at] home.com ANTHONY NARDI adamchao618 [at] hotmail.com adam j. le conte amenouveau [at] hotmail.com DAVID SCHMITZ nihilum33 [at] hotmail.com Dan Keller ooeeoo [at] hotmail.com Daniel McKernan pixiepuck [at] hotmail.com Paul Wroth solarlodge6 [at] hotmail.com Michael O'Connor whovines [at] hotmail.com Jon Wiens yiftissa [at] hotmail.com Yiftissa elodahl [at] ibsys.com Eric Lodahl justint [at] icolorado.com Justin Tomlinson duolagem [at] icqmail.com Nathan Espen donwa [at] icu.com DON SIGAL emoore [at] idiominc.com Eli K. Moore phalen180 [at] infin8ty.com phalen180 nirav [at] ink19.com Nirav Soni trioux [at] interbaun.com Tony Rioux ndallen [at] interlog.com Nigel Allen sonitus7 [at] juno.com Matthew St-Germain lastsigh [at] lastsigh.com Kim Ann joejanecek [at] loop.com Joe Janecek bathory [at] maltedmedia.com Dennis Bathory-Kitsz maurice [at] mauricerickard.com Maurice Rickard madcow [at] milkhouse.com ign [at] mindspring.com Gene Sweeney mattu [at] mindspring.com Matt Urban stevedrury [at] mindspring.com Stephen Drury cmuberti [at] monmouth.com cmuberti tmstoudt [at] my-deja.com Tom Stoudt maha [at] neosoft.com Brent Bruni Comiskey salazar [at] ix.netcom.com Rick Salazar xibalba [at] no-fi.com Chris Barrus jeff [at] noisician.com Jeff Wrench sasha [at] noizguild.com NoizGuild fox [at] ntlworld.com fox random99 [at] ntlworld.com random99 littletoad [at] playful.com little toad ecc [at] pobox.com The Evolution Control Committee wolfram [at] poland.com Dominik Kowalczyk n7nt [at] primenet.com Richard Kendrick bcourter [at] ptc.com Blake Courter edwardp [at] rcn.com Edward P. Dittmer maenad [at] refinedclinicalresearch.com maenad dymaxia [at] ripco.com Kerry Keane tubaman [at] rocketmail.com Jerold Korinek mayday-imr [at] houston.rr.com pozuga [at] houston.rr.com Carlos Pozo mraley [at] nc.rr.com Morgan Raley bzditch [at] sprynet.com John A. Hajeski Jonathan.Lefler [at] starwoodhotels.com Jonathan Lefler granvold [at] futhark.Eng.Sun.COM Tom Granvold hood [at] eng.sun.com Mark Hood pan [at] syix.com Pan benat2 [at] tamaqua.com Brett Banditelli ville.paukkonen [at] tecnomen.com Ville Paukkonen absinthe [at] teleport.com Colonel Panic jamesk [at] telisphere.com James Kirchmer dgromfin [at] telocity.com Danny Gromfin bob [at] threestrands.com Bob Troy [at] tipjar.com Troy Hewitt davidsen [at] tmr.com bill davidsen twakeford [at] tursa.com Tony Wakeford Kudra [at] valley2.valleyint.com Troy Date h [at] weirdness.com H. Figurine aleph [at] world.com Jose M. daLuz bradleybee [at] yahoo.com Brad Emrich incompleteness [at] yahoo.com Robb C midibeast [at] yahoo.com Tony Roney mjnja [at] yahoo.com minya rostasi [at] yahoo.com ROD STASICK spam2devnull [at] yahoo.com Andrew Wing starshipwreck [at] yahoo.com starshipwreck laughing [at] yourpain.com Dayv! michaelz [at] zoka.com Michael Zelner annibale [at] dense.de Annibale Picicci cgarbers [at] gmx.de Christoph Garbers Ekkehard.Uthke [at] gmx.de Ekkehard Uthke scheyhing [at] snafu.de Dieter Scheyhing leo [at] tmt.de Andre Leopold Wolfram.Priess [at] rz.uni-jena.de Wolfram Priess schneide [at] phil.uni-passau.de Karl-Michael Schneider _Locke_ [at] web.de Locke bouvin [at] daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin fungus [at] OCF.Berkeley.EDU Hank Fung sth [at] andrew.cmu.edu Steve Hayashi reed [at] vision.eri.harvard.edu Reed Hedges jacobson [at] frodo.mgh.harvard.edu Nils Jacobson kortbein [at] iastate.edu Josh abpurvis [at] alumni.princeton.edu Arthur Purvis harv23 [at] Stanford.EDU Harvey Thornburg jcturner [at] mail.ucf.edu Jesse Turner twomblyk [at] Glue.umd.edu Kristian Mark Twombly jeff [at] rufinus.cs.widener.edu J Rufinus mjgoins [at] students.wisc.edu Matthew J. Goins wwschonb [at] artsci.wustl.edu Whit Schonbein Atro.Tossavainen [at] iki.fi Atro Tossavainen juskars [at] cc.jyu.fi Jussi Karsikas jari.kaukua [at] kvs.fi Jari Kaukua boubaker [at] cena.fr heddy Boubaker oger [at] worldnet.fr OGER lartis [at] ath.forthnet.gr Vincent Kargatis harvel [at] tarski.2y.net Michael Slone omz23 [at] airmail.net Joel Zoch greycube [at] artserve.net justin jaeckle lankina [at] att.net Alan Lankin rudy.carrera [at] worldnet.att.net Rudy A Carrera setai [at] worldnet.att.net Timothy Gross spuhl [at] charter.net Scott Puhl antaeus66 [at] earthlink.net leonard crandall bonarue [at] earthlink.net Greg Hallock byeya [at] earthlink.net John G. Thomas eso200 [at] earthlink.net Eric Ong mlev [at] earthlink.net Marc Levinthal ruinrocks [at] earthlink.net Tom Adams sdavmor [at] earthlink.net Steven Davies-Morris elleinad [at] elleinad.net elleinad brucelewis [at] mediaone.net dgunning [at] mediaone.net Donald Gunning phatmike [at] apathy.ne.mediaone.net phat mike sitcom [at] mediaone.net jeremy tcm [at] nababs.net Timo Metzemakers alterhead [at] nacs.net Brian Alter shrao [at] nyx.net Shrisha Rao amanita [at] optonline.net Joseph Benzola donkeyrhubarb [at] sega.net ecook [at] simulated.net Eric Cook seth [at] tisue.net Seth Tisue santavenecia [at] uswest.net Mark Jung bb10k [at] velocity.net Rick Lopez arne [at] webon.net Arne_L?ining liberte [at] bart.nl Libertus boud [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Boudewijn Rempt irina [at] rempt.xs4all.nl Irina Rempt kjellj [at] nfi.no Kjell R. Jenssen faulds [at] es.co.nz Stuart Brodie Faulds info [at] celebrityseries.org Jack Wright dana [at] codding.org Dana Codding umquam [at] unitee.dyndns.org Chris Fancsy witlox [at] freeshell.org Bob Witlox glennf [at] grfn.org Glenn Freeman paradive [at] industrial.org paradive nkoch [at] northnet.org Nathan Koch dgarcia [at] silentnoise.org Daniel Garcia/Sol3 fsb [at] thefsb.org Thomas Worster grindex [at] thegatesofhell.org pUkeRz mefju [at] venus.ci.uw.edu.pl Maciej Ostaszewski zimnyzenon [at] interia.pl Zenobiusz Zimny l43384 [at] alfa.ist.utl.pt Ricardo Reis zayats [at] sib3.ru Ilya S. Ivanov fhaevirr [at] hem.passagen.se Ingmar Wennerberg justin [at] DoCS.UU.SE Justin Pearson Simon.Licen [at] guest.arnes.si Simon Licen gtp10 [at] cus.cam.ac.uk Geoff Parks s.e.nte [at] keele.ac.uk Sol Nte jliat [at] jliat.demon.co.uk James Whitehead alfred [at] ellaguru.freeserve.co.uk Alfred Armstrong gask [at] findo.freeserve.co.uk GASK andrew [at] pnoom.freeserve.co.uk Andrew Cox dan [at] state51.co.uk daniel hill progmap [at] yahoo.co.uk ProgMAP andy.roberts [at] zetnet.co.uk Andy Roberts Voted NO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sj_evans21 [at] yahoo.com.au Sydney James Evans yan [at] storm.ca Yves Bellefeuille LMcmil2586 [at] aol.com Jeremy McMillan kimdv [at] best.com Kim DeVaughn stainles [at] bga.com Dwight Brown amanda_dusting [at] hotmail.com Amanda Jane Dusting gprrspw [at] mindspring.com G.P. Ryan ra3035 [at] email.sps.mot.com Michael Porter (of GAMBIT) fran_keeling [at] my-deja.com Frances Margan Keeling naddy [at] mips.inka.de Christian Weisgerber amcmicha [at] Princeton.EDU Andrew McMichael meg [at] Steam.Stanford.EDU meg worley rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller thor [at] anta.net Thor Kottelin vote-rec.music.experimental [at] newton.digitalspace.net Philip Newton votefraud [at] pyrophore.ogoense.net UVV af.news [at] etrigan.org Alan Fleming Abstained ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ mcclenon [at] erols.com Bob McClenon aahz [at] pobox.com Aahz mmontcha [at] OregonVOS.net Matthew Montchalin Invalid votes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ phil.turnbull [at] acnielsen.com.au philT ! Voted twice, both votes disallowed admin [at] bbsdaze.com Joshua Warren ! Ineligible address pturnbul [at] bigpond.com Phil Turnbull ! Voted twice, both votes disallowed markvj [at] spammenothotmail.com M. Jung ! Invalid address: votetaker demunging flexibility revoked by whiners dbryce [at] texplas.com Doug Bryce ! No vote statement in message minorseventhSPAMBLOCK [at] earthlink.net Jim Kroger ! Invalid address: votetaker demunging flexibility revoked by whiners nja [at] leicester.ac.uk Andrew Norman ! Undeliverable address: 550 rejected: administrative prohibition -- Neil Crellin, UVV