From wp6@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu Mon Sep 27 12:32:50 1993 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups Path: rpi!tale From: wp6@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Walter Pohl) Subject: RESULT: rec.games.frp reorganisation fails 135:209 Followup-To: news.groups Sender: tale@cs.rpi.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: cs.rpi.edu Organization: Columbia University Date: 11 Mar 91 02:50:12 GMT Approved: tale@rpi.edu Lines: 378 The final tally for re-organizing rec.games.frp was: yes - 135 no - 209 In other words, the vote failed, as Usenet guidelines require a hundred more yes votes than no votes. But the vote was closer than many predicted. One thing we were surprised about is the number of flames that this whole issue generated, and the number of nasty comments we got. Ultimately, the organization of rec.games.frp is not of critical importance, and it is odd that so many took this issue personally. We weren't trying to shove a split down anyone's throats, and it is unfortunate that some reacted so negatively to our proposal. But the vote is over now, and we are free of this idea for at least six months. And here are the votes: 135 yes 209 no no:27006_437@uwovax.uwo.ca no:65344L@D1.dartmouth.edu no:6600arac%ucsbuxa@hub.ucsb.edu no:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:bi__ahb@selway.umt.edu no:@IRAUN1.IRA.UKA.DE:delos!roxanne!frieder@nadia.stgt.sub.org no:@RELAY.CS.NET,@tektronix.tek.com:al@calsci.uucp no:@RELAY.CS.NET,@tektronix.tek.com:dales@teksce.sce.tek.com no:@RELAY.CS.NET,@tektronix.tek.com:richk@tekcae.cax.tek.com no:@RELAY.CS.NET,@tektronix.tek.com:richk@wyvern.cax.tek.com no:@RELAY.CS.NET,@tektronix.tek.com:thoad@tekig6.pen.tek.com no:@RELAY.CS.NET:sm%ncrsecp.Copenhagen.NCR.DK@ncrsecp no:@alphard.cs.utk.edu:kallen@cs.utk.edu no:@freezer.acs.udel.edu:bryden@acs.udel.edu no:@mailgw.liu.se:calle@lage.lysator.liu.se no:@nova.unix.portal.com:James_J_Kowalczyk@cup.portal.com no:@nova.unix.portal.com:Loball@cup.portal.com no:@nova.unix.portal.com:Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com no:@po10.andrew.cmu.edu:jf2z+@andrew.cmu.edu no:@po9.andrew.cmu.edu:wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu no:@prg.oxford.ac.uk:rupert@robots.oxford.ac.uk no:@ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca,@epas.utoronto.ca,@nyama:scott@skypod no:DN5@PSUVM.PSU.EDU no:FAX0500@uoft02.utoledo.edu no:MDLCPGS@LHN.DSIR.GOVT.NZ no:MILLERL@WILMA.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU no:RKR103@PSUVM.PSU.EDU no:SAS124@PSUVM.PSU.EDU no:SLOANE@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu no:TSC0265@VENUS.TAMU.EDU no:WITCHEY@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU no:XB.P27@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU no:XRTNT@AMARNA.GSFC.NASA.GOV no:abg144@u.washington.edu no:adobe!adobe.com!caro@decwrl.dec.com no:alan@nabeth.enet.dec.com no:allanm@vulcan.med.ge.com no:amerritt@acorn.co.uk no:andrew@cs.glasgow.ac.uk no:areid@hydra.unm.edu no:ars3_cif@uhura.cc.rochester.edu no:arxt@midway.uchicago.edu no:augias!micke@efd.lth.se no:battech@bucsf.bu.edu no:bbx!yenta!cassandra!chris@unmvax.cs.unm.edu no:beowulf@cbnewsm.att.com no:bg413893@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu no:bonar@math.rutgers.edu no:boyd@dip.eecs.umich.edu no:bradley@druwa.att.com no:caplan@Neon.Stanford.EDU no:ccicpg!cci632!lareth!capron@uunet.UU.NET no:ccmsean@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu no:ceb@prcrs.prc.com no:cheung@cs.Buffalo.EDU no:chrisber@cobalt.cco.caltech.edu no:cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu no:cooke%garfield.cs.wisc.edu@cs.wisc.edu no:cwayne@triton.unm.edu no:d87-mri@nada.kth.se no:dalamb@umiacs.UMD.EDU no:dalton@cs.utah.edu no:dan@sci.ccny.cuny.edu no:darryl@nexus.yorku.ca no:david@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov no:dbasinge@silver.ucs.indiana.edu no:devin@samwise.Colorado.EDU no:dfn@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu no:dicksion@uhccux.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu no:djboucha@ATHENA.MIT.EDU no:dmccart@modl01.intel.com no:dodd@pekoe.csl.sri.com no:draphsor@portia.Stanford.EDU no:dunadan@u.washington.edu no:dutchman@wpi.wpi.edu no:dwilson@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU no:es72218@tut.fi no:es72218@tut.fi no:flowers@cobalt.cco.caltech.edu no:fozzie!stanley@uu.psi.com no:frost@umiacs.UMD.EDU no:gamble@casbah.acns.nwu.edu no:gfink@sundrops.eecs.ucdavis.edu no:gh21@cattell.psych.upenn.edu no:glennr@ecn.purdue.edu no:goldman@ferris.cray.com no:grant@Portia no:gretchen@mica.berkeley.edu no:gt3741b@prism.gatech.edu no:gt6940a@prism.gatech.edu no:gt7691c@prism.gatech.edu no:harris@egrlab no:hartman@cs.swarthmore.edu no:hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu no:hgthomas@ATHENA.MIT.EDU no:hougen@cs.umn.edu no:hunt@dg-rtp.dg.com no:hunter@oswego.Oswego.EDU no:ilim@watdcs.UWaterloo.ca no:jaa@philabs.philips.com no:jackal@btc.kodak.com no:jbillone@jarthur.Claremont.edu no:jcorwin@ocf.Berkeley.EDU no:jeff@casbah.acns.nwu.edu no:jenkins@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu no:jenninv@mist.CS.ORST.EDU no:jhc@ulysses.att.com no:jhc@ulysses.att.com no:jhreiher%uccs@CCNUCCS no:jmcadams@casbah.acns.nwu.edu no:john@psych.toronto.edu no:jsanders@symcom.math.uiuc.edu no:kammerdi@rex.cs.tulane.edu no:kato@rpi.edu no:kieran@amaterasu.physics.uiuc.edu no:kllove@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu no:kwoolner@us.oracle.com no:lange@CS.UCLA.EDU no:lazarus@ug.cs.dal.ca no:lum@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de no:lwl@eniac.seas.upenn.edu no:macross@ucscb.UCSC.EDU no:malloy@nprdc.navy.mil no:markcb%bedevere.asd.sgi.com@SGI.COM no:mhassman@zephyr.cair.du.edu no:microsoft!bethmo@uunet.UU.NET no:microsoft!erichs@uunet.UU.NET no:microsoft!ryanb@cs.washington.edu no:miq%chromavac.csd.sgi.com@SGI.COM no:mtest1@sequoia.cray.com no:nagel@wintermute.ICS.UCI.EDU no:ncalvin@us.oracle.com no:nesscm@mentor.cc.purdue.edu no:nexus@cgdisis.cgd.ucar.EDU no:oea@ifi.uio.no no:onder@venera.isi.edu no:pearlman@cis.ohio-state.edu no:peter@taronga.hackercorp.com no:ph@coca.ZYX.SE no:phaedrus@milton.u.washington.edu no:prgroff@watcgl.waterloo.edu no:quest!cipric!jmh@mmm.serc.mmm.com no:railfan@buhub.bradley.edu no:raphael@research.canon.oz.au no:rcrane@yoda.eecs.wsu.edu no:rdawson@ccs.carleton.ca no:rees@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu no:rfm@Eng.Sun.COM no:rlb@ai.mit.edu no:rleroux1@sol.UVic.CA no:rsoft!mindlink!Gordon_Mulcaster@wimsey.bc.ca no:sab@wpi.wpi.edu no:sam@math.ucla.edu no:sarge@barnard.csustan.edu no:scheidel@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu no:schekker@cst.prl.philips.nl no:sco!davidbe@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!scocan!aeshq.uucp!jim@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!sun!Central!mic!rwsys!sneaky!gordon@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!sun!amdahl!JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com!ked01@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!sun!indetech!david@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!sun!nosun.West!techbook!tsouth@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!sun!pacbell!ctnews!ios.Convergent.COM!garyt@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!uunet!anagld!aplcen!jhunix!milord@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!uunet!naitc!ddsw1.mcs.com!veck@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!uunet!ncrlnk!ncrcae!sauron!clodII!bmurphy@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sco!uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:seidc!mips!ames!scicom!lucas@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:seidc!mips!ames!sumax.seattleu.edu!nwnexus!sigma!holter@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:seidc!mips!decwrl!pdaeng!zardoz!dhw68k!f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org!Kay.Shapero@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:seidc!mips!decwrl!pdaeng!zardoz!dhw68k!f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org!Nicolai.Shapero@ucscc.UCSC.EDU no:sew@hpfitst1.fc.hp.com no:sfellows@slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU no:shahar@shum.huji.ac.il no:simon@math.berkeley.edu no:simpson@parc.xerox.com no:sma@seg.npl.co.uk no:smith@rex.cs.tulane.edu no:spardron@lion.waterloo.edu no:spcoltri@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu no:spencert@turing.cs.rpi.edu no:spotter@eve.WRIGHT.edu no:sst@ATHENA.MIT.EDU no:stehman@hubcap.clemson.edu no:steveb@cs.utexas.edu no:sunshine@tybalt.caltech.edu no:swbaxter@dahlia.waterloo.edu no:sybase!sybase.com!eallen@Sun.COM no:taff@saturn.UCSC.EDU no:thornley@cs.umn.edu no:tito@sbcs.sunysb.edu no:tkogoma@triton.unm.edu no:toriver@lise.unit.no no:tsang@cs.washington.edu no:va3@mentor.cc.purdue.edu no:vapspcx@prism.gatech.edu no:vitro!fsb@uu.psi.com no:vnend@Princeton.EDU no:wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu no:walker@ug.cs.dal.ca no:wang!elf.wang.com!fitz@uunet.UU.NET no:warack@dip.eecs.umich.edu no:warlock@ecst.csuchico.edu no:warnold@ai.mit.edu no:welch@mda.ecs.umass.edu no:wolf@triton.unm.edu no:woodsb@ecn.purdue.edu no:young@cs.unr.edu no:za057@zeus.unomaha.edu yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:DAMATT01@ulkyvx.bitnet yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:GREMLIN@HSEPM1.HSE.NL yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:LE_STU@KUB.NL yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:MARTIN@HSEPM1.HSE.NL yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:RUTGER@KUB.NL yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:S26604@BARILVM.BITNET yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:SBIT@KUB.NL yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:WSIN11@HEITUE1.BITNET yes:@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:WSIN12@HEITUE1.BITNET yes:@IRAUN1.IRA.UKA.DE:ncc1701!space@nadia.stgt.sub.org yes:@RELAY.PRIME.COM:aperez@caribe.prime.com yes:@RELAY.PRIME.COM:bgillesp@beast.prime.com yes:@elrond.ida.liu.se:c90davby@odalix.ida.liu.se yes:@hal.bristol-poly.ac.uk:p2_georg@gould2.bristol-poly.ac.uk yes:@po9.andrew.cmu.edu:aw1s+@andrew.cmu.edu yes:@po9.andrew.cmu.edu:es2a+@andrew.cmu.edu yes:@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:AECOLLEY@vax1.tcd.ie yes:@sol.bristol-poly.ac.uk:bj_stedm@gould2.bristol-poly.ac.uk yes:@sunic.sunet.se:roger@park1 yes:A.G.Bishop@massey.ac.nz yes:CRACICOT@us.oracle.com yes:E_MCCOY@UNHH.UNH.EDU yes:KUENTO@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu yes:OLOUNELA@cc.Helsinki.FI yes:T.MILLS@qut.edu.au yes:academ!sob yes:adz0l@helga4.acc.virginia.edu yes:arxt@midway.uchicago.edu yes:aryeh yes:asstud3@sci.kun.nl yes:banu@ATHENA.MIT.EDU yes:beckers@plains.NoDak.edu yes:beckfdp@anubis.network.com yes:belgers@ai.mit.edu yes:bennett@tramp.Colorado.EDU yes:bsu-cs!marc@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu yes:btysingr@med.unc.edu yes:c60c-2jg@WEB.berkeley.edu yes:ccastrl@prism.gatech.edu yes:ccicpg!cci632!lareth!capron@uunet.UU.NET yes:ceb@prcrs.prc.com yes:celit!fpssun.fps.com!mbn.fps.com!mbn@UCSD.EDU yes:cjs@phy.duke.edu yes:cohen@tramp.Colorado.EDU yes:corr@rpi.edu yes:csw90@seq1.keele.ac.uk yes:d0chris@dtek.chalmers.se yes:d88-cbr@nada.kth.se yes:dbconley@athena.cas.Vanderbilt.Edu yes:dbuchtal@math.lsa.umich.edu yes:delzore@hydra.unm.edu yes:dewinter@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca yes:dparting@ecst.csuchico.edu yes:drk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU yes:duncanj@umd5.UMD.EDU yes:durand@DMI.USherb.CA yes:dvljhg@cs.umu.se yes:dwb@rsch.oclc.org yes:edoc9!kenw@uunet.UU.NET yes:eejsc@marlin.jcu.edu.au yes:equicom!John.J.Ackley@cis.ohio-state.edu yes:erlend@churchy.ai.mit.edu yes:fidelio@ai.mit.edu yes:gaz@eclipse.Colorado.EDU yes:gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU yes:hebrais@iro.umontreal.ca yes:hgschmie@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de yes:ian%sibyl.eleceng.ua.oz@augean.ua.oz.au yes:isr@rodan.acs.syr.edu yes:jacobus@mentor.cc.purdue.edu yes:jha@lfcs.edinburgh.ac.uk yes:jj@alice.att.com yes:jlesgold@casbah.acns.nwu.edu yes:jmartin@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU yes:jpb@umbio.med.miami.edu yes:juke@stekt.oulu.fi yes:juola@cs.Colorado.EDU yes:k113651@lehtori.tut.fi yes:k34280e@puukko.hut.fi yes:killer@hulk.hut.fi yes:kjx@comp.vuw.ac.nz yes:kusumoto@chsun1.uchicago.edu yes:leonard@cs.UMD.EDU yes:lord_zar@ucrmath.ucr.edu yes:marier@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu yes:mbrown@testsys.austin.ibm.com yes:mcsmit@watmath.waterloo.edu yes:medley!bert@limbic.ssdl.com yes:mgates@entiat.boeing.com yes:michael@stack.urc.tue.nl yes:milliken@BBN.COM yes:minnotte@rice.edu yes:mmagee@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU yes:murray@vs2.scri.fsu.edu yes:myhre@plains.NoDak.edu yes:nestene@css.itd.umich.edu yes:nobody@Kodak.COM yes:null@rimfaxe.diku.dk yes:nyssa!glibli!bham3.gli.com!douglas@unicorn.cc.wwu.edu yes:odin@bu-it.bu.edu yes:olavma@solan.unit.no yes:paquette@cpsc.ucalgary.ca yes:prls!uszynski@ISL.Stanford.EDU yes:pyr530@oz.plymouth.edu yes:quoc@cobalt.cco.caltech.edu yes:rac@rti.rti.org yes:rannells@valhalla.cs.wright.edu yes:rcbare@urc.tue.nl yes:rcharman@phoenix.Princeton.EDU yes:richard@nacjack.gen.nz yes:rjf001!sno-1!sno@sharkey.cc.umich.edu yes:sandia!marms@unmvax.cs.unm.edu yes:sco!scocan!tvcent.uucp!andrew@ucscc.UCSC.EDU yes:sco!uunet!coplex!disk!rob@ucscc.UCSC.EDU yes:seifert@freja.diku.dk yes:songer@ecn.purdue.edu yes:spr@prism.gatech.edu yes:sven@hpsidsam.sid.hp.com yes:tom@cis.udel.edu yes:tommie@ai.mit.edu yes:tpowell@zoot.pa.dec.com yes:twwells!fantasci!jep@decwrl.dec.com yes:vjg@cbnews.att.com yes:weiner@bnlls1.gov yes:wesommer@ATHENA.MIT.EDU yes:wevers@ai.mit.edu yes:withers@nitmoi.enet.dec.com yes:wp6@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu yes:wsbucan@eutws1.win.tue.nl yes:wsbueve@eutws1.win.tue.nl yes:wsbusr@eutws1.win.tue.nl yes:yorkw@ecn.purdue.edu yes:zamick@remus.rutgers.edu yes:zaphod@cs.umu.se yes:zippy@wam.umd.edu Walt Pohl Disclaimer: God is dead, the author is dead, and I'm not doing so good myself. From millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu Sat Apr 4 03:20:14 1992 Xref: rpi news.announce.newgroups:1884 news.groups:40203 rec.games.frp:53838 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.frp Path: rpi!bounce-back From: millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) Subject: RFD: rec.games.frp reorganization Followup-To: news.groups Sender: tale@cs.rpi.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: cs.rpi.edu Organization: Moss and Fern, Inc. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1992 05:56:52 GMT Approved: tale@rpi.edu Lines: 135 ON THE CREATION OF A REC.GAMES.FRP HIERARCHY I propose the creation of several new newsgroups called rec.games.frp.marketplace, rec.games.frp.creative, rec.games.frp.pbem, rec.games.frp.cons, rec.games.frp.advocacy, and rec.games.frp.dnd. The rec.games.frp newsgroup currently supports about a thousand messages per week and, according to the regularly posted statistics, is now the largest single discussion group on the usenet, so dividing the newsgroup may be in order. Following are the proposed subgroups in alphabetical order along with combination proposals and first drafts of their charters. 1. rec.games.frp.advocacy Frequently discussion on rec.games.frp amounts to vigorously overstated disagreement about the quality or lack thereof of a particular game system or game company. This newsgroup will give readers of rec.games.frp and the subgroups an outlet for such material. This newsgroup would be expected to hold such lines of discussion as: the superiority of the Hero system to GURPS or vice versa; class systems stink; skill based systems stink; one game company is really really obnoxious; mine are bigger than yours; roleplaying games lead to satanism and murder; and so on. 2. rec.games.frp.cons Roleplaying games are a social activity of a subculture, much like involvement in science fiction literature, computer programming, or the society for creative anachronism. As a subculture, roleplaying gamers frequently have conventions at which they can join together and play games with like minded people. Convention announcements and discussions frequently get lost in the mass of postings on rec.games.frp. This newsgroup will offer a place for announcements of roleplaying game conventions, discussions of past rpg conventions, and discussion on the organization of rpg conventions. 3. rec.games.frp.creative Roleplaying gamers, as modern inheritors of the ancient role of the storyteller, are highly involved in writing of many different types, including: fiction; poetry; filksongs; invented history; analysis of history and anthropology for roleplaying purposes; adventure modules; rules; errata for rules; rules variants; errata for rules variants; and so on. This newsgroup would provide an area for this sort of material to be placed. This newsgroup would be intended for finished material only. It would not be intended for discussion. Discussion of anything posted in this newsgroup should be done in the root group, rec.games.frp. Whether this subgroup should be moderated, and who would moderate it (not me), is up for discussion. 4. rec.games.frp.dnd One company produces a family of roleplaying games that has been around long enough and maintained enough of its appeal to sustain a discussion group on its own. This group is the D&D family of roleplaying games, produced by TSR, Inc., including Collector's Edition Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), Basic D&D, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (AD&D), and AD&D Second Edition. This proposed newsgroup would include discussion of TSR's rules and products and compatible products, such as: character classes; character races; monsters; magic spells; weapons; Greyhawk; the Forgotten Realms; the Known World; Dark Sun; Spelljammer; RavenLoft; Hollow World; City State of the Invincible Overlord; and so on. 5. rec.games.frp.marketplace Many readers of rec.games.frp use the newsgroup in order to buy or sell roleplaying game related items. This traffic is small compared to the torrent of information on rec.games.frp and is likely to get lost otherwise. Likewise, when one is looking for interesting discussion it is irritating to run into an advertisement of sale. 6. rec.games.frp.pbem Many readers of rec.games.frp participate in "play by e-mail", or pbem, games. This newsgroup would offer a place to organize them and exchange advice specific to the play of pbem games. Following the creation of these subgroups rec.games.frp would continue to perform the same function it does currently, with discussion of issues of interest to players and gamemasters of many different roleplaying games. The subgroups are, with the exception of the .dnd subgroup, peripheral to the main lines of discussion in rec.games.frp and would benefit from the proposed differentiation. The .dnd subgroup as proposed would be very much like the current rec.games.frp newsgroup, but it would give d&d players a separate place for discussion as d&d players have requested many times in the past. rec.games.frp is an extremely large discussion group in which flamewars over splitting pop up every two or three months, usually at semester breaks, and even though the arguments against splitting on game lines hold as strong as ever today, there is no question that discussion in the newsgroup would carry on without a noticeable decrease in quality or insight even if the d&d family of games were split off from the main group. Likewise, d&d will generate sufficient discussion to ensure a high quality newsgroup. ISSUES TO BE DISCUSSED FOR EACH GROUP a) Should the group be unmoderated? Especially, this question is pertinent for rec.games.frp.creative. I do not think it is appropriate for the other groups, but that is just my opinion. b) Should the proposed charters be modified? How? c) Will the traffic in .pbem, .marketplace, and .cons be large enough to justify their existence? d) Anything else you think is important ISSUES NOT TO BE DISCUSSED a) renaming rec.games.frp. Despite popular misuse, fantasy role playing does not refer strictly to pseudo-medieval settings, but instead partakes of a more formal definition of fantasy as referring to any time or place that is in some essential way unlike our own. This matter will be left up to someone even more masochistic than I am. b) my supposed ancestry Judging from previous split discussions, after this RFD several people will pop up with competing and incompatible proposals for the split of rec.games.frp. For the sake of clarity, let me formally name this particular proposal the H-BOMB proposal in honor of its probable effect on discussion in rec.games.frp :(. If others are going to name their proposals too, please choose something completely different for your name, ok? For those who haven't been part of the newsgroup creation process before, there will be a discussion period of a couple weeks, lasting until April 7, 1992. The discussion will take place in the news.groups newsgroup. If it still seems that there is appropriate interest, I will then issue a call for votes. If YES votes outnumber NO votes by at least 100 and achieve a 2/3 majority, then the new group will be created. Do not vote now. Now is not the time for voting. Now is the time for discussion. -- whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu Throw this screen against the wall, right now! From millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu Fri Apr 24 13:57:23 1992 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.frp From: millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) Subject: CFV: rec.games.frp reorganization Followup-To: poster Reply-To: rgf-vote@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu Organization: Newt World Order Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1992 14:40:05 GMT REC.GAMES.FRP REORGANIZATION This is a proposal to create a hierarchy in rec.games.frp following two separate methodologies: First, an administrative division in order to move several kinds of discussion that are low volume and quickly lost in the volume of postings on rec.games.frp to their own newsgroups; and secondly, a volume-based division to move several high volume streams of discussion into separate newsgroups. Flame wars over splitting break out in rec.games.frp every three or four months, demonstrating that there is significant amount of internal pressure to reorganize the various streams of roleplaying discussion currently in rec.games.frp. Several times in the past few years, proposals for the splitting of rec.games.frp have been made and bungled and thus the readers of rec.games.frp are chary of yet another split proposal for rec.games.frp. It is my opinion that this reorganization proposal avoids most of the problems with previous rec.games.frp reorganizations, mostly because it doesn't try to make an elegant division of discussion but rather draws lines where lines already exist. If passed, this reorganization will have the least amount of negative impact on rec.games.frp of any reorganization that I have seen proposed for rec.games.frp in several years of reading it. The rec.games.frp newsgroup has been one of the top 20 newsgroups in KB of postings for a while now, including several months with the dubious distinction of being first or second place among the discussion newsgroups on usenet. +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (kilobytes per month) | | | | | +-- Crossposting percentage | | | | | | +-- Cost ratio: $US/month/rdr | | | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V V V December 1991 18 47000 1073 80% 1668 4097.6 4% 0.14 2.7% rec.games.frp January 1992 7 52000 1094 79% 2453 7150.2 2% 0.23 2.7% rec.games.frp February 1992 7 42000 949 80% 2506 6944.7 3% 0.27 2.2% rec.games.frp March 1992 12 46000 934 79% 2545 6214.4 1% 0.22 2.2% rec.games.frp ----------------------- CREATE subgroups of rec.games.frp PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.advocacy PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: Frequently discussion on rec.games.frp amounts to vigorously overstated disagreement about the quality or lack thereof of a particular game system or game company. This unmoderated discussion newsgroup will give readers of rec.games.frp and the subgroups an outlet for such material. This newsgroup would be expected to hold such lines of discussion as: Champions versus GURPS; AD&Dv1 versus AD&Dv2; AD&D stinks; class systems versus skill based systems; game critiques wanted; mine are bigger than yours; and so on. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.announce PROPOSED STATUS: Moderated PROPOSED MODERATOR: Coyt Watters backup by Joshua Levy PROPOSED CHARTER: This group is intended for all announcements relating to roleplaying games. This may include, but is not limited to, game release announcements, pbem announcements, convention announcements, and any other events. Discussion of material in this newsgroup should be done in the appropriate roleplaying discussion group. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.archives PROPOSED STATUS: Moderated PROPOSED MODERATOR: Mitch Gold backup by Steve Mansfield PROPOSED CHARTER: This newsgroup will serve as a temporary archive for postings that should be archived on one of the anonymous ftp or mail-server sites, and which do not belong in one of the other roleplaying newsgroups. Therefore only finished work such as net.books, campaign background, convention modules, the tabolport project, fiction, poetry, compilations, and so on should be posted here. This newsgroup is not for discussion purposes, and discussion of anything in this newsgroup should take place in the appropriate roleplaying discussion group. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.dnd PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: This unmoderated discussion newsgroup is for discussion of the official rules and settings of the D&D family of roleplaying games, produced by TSR, Inc., including Collector's Edition Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), Basic D&D, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (AD&D), and AD&D Second Edition. This proposed newsgroup would include discussion of TSR's rules and products and compatible products, such as: character classes; character races; monsters; magic spells; weapons; Greyhawk; the Forgotten Realms; the Known World; Dark Sun; Spelljammer; RavenLoft; Hollow World; City State of the Invincible Overlord; and so on. Crossposting between this group and rec.games.frp is discouraged, however issues of general interest that happen to involve a D&D rulebook or setting are more than welcome in rec.games.frp. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.marketplace PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: This unmoderated newsgroup is intended to hold For Sale and Wanted postings for roleplaying game materials. ----------------------- RENAME rec.games.frp TO rec.games.frp.misc PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.misc PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: This is a discussion group for all aspects of roleplaying games. The name "frp" refers to Fantasy Role-Playing, but this does not mean that the scope of the group is restricted to pseudo medieval settings where magic is common and powerful. The common mis-use of the word "fantasy" comes from the marketing distinction between the literary genres of science fiction and fantasy. Fantasy actually means anything that is set in a time or place that is **in some essential way** unlike our own. Science Fiction fits this definition of fantasy, as do other genres including Horror, Tolkeinesque High Fantasy, and Westerns. Lines of discussion in this newsgroup can be expected to include, among other topics: roleplaying advice; gamemastering advice; reviews of roleplaying products; scenario ideas; rules; errata; gaming anecdotes; and many peripherally connected subjects. Crossposting between this group and other roleplaying discussion groups is to be discouraged. ----------------------- BALLOT Please fill in the following ballot by replacing the underscores with either YES, NO, or ABSTAIN to register your vote, and send it to rgf-vote@wharton.upenn.edu. Replying to this posting will get your vote to the correct address. If you do not vote on a particular newsgroup you will be considered to have abstained from the vote on that newsgroup. Please do not include this entire posting in your vote. Just the vote itself is sufficient. Voting starts at 5:00 AM GMT 24 April 1992 and will continue until 5:00 AM GMT 16 May 1992. Any votes received outside of that time period will not count. BALLOT FORM ___ Proposal #1: CREATE rec.games.frp.advocacy ___ Proposal #2: CREATE rec.games.frp.announce ___ Proposal #3: CREATE rec.games.frp.archives ___ Proposal #4: CREATE rec.games.frp.dnd ___ Proposal #5: CREATE rec.games.frp.marketplace ___ Proposal #6: RENAME rec.games.frp TO rec.games.frp.misc ----------------------- The discussion of this reorganization proposal took place between March 5, 1992 and April 5, 1992, in news.groups with several announcements in rec.games.frp. The discussion period is now over, and has been for a few weeks. Now is the time to vote. -- whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu Throw this screen against the wall, right now! From millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu Mon May 11 17:53:48 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2325 news.groups:50669 rec.games.frp:67744 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.frp Path: uunet!bounce-back From: millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) Subject: 2nd CFV and VOTE ACK: rec.games.frp reorganization Message-ID: <1992May11.165115.28737@uunet.uu.net> Followup-To: poster Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: rgf-vote@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu Organization: Newt World Order Date: Mon, 11 May 1992 16:51:15 GMT Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net Lines: 566 CALL FOR VOTES and Mass Acknowledgement for rec.games.frp reorganization This is a second call for votes (CFV) and a mass acknowledgment of votes for the rec.games.frp reorganization. The discussion of this reorganization proposal took place between March 5, 1992 and April 5, 1992, in news.groups with several announcements in rec.games.frp. The discussion period is now over, and has been for a few weeks. Now is the time to vote. Voting started on 24 April 1992 and will continue until 5 AM GMT 16 May 1992. Any votes received outside of that time period will not count. REC.GAMES.FRP REORGANIZATION This is a proposal to create a hierarchy in rec.games.frp following two separate methodologies: First, an administrative division in order to move several kinds of discussion that are low volume and quickly lost in the volume of postings on rec.games.frp to their own newsgroups; and secondly, a volume-based division to move several high volume streams of discussion into separate newsgroups. Flame wars over splitting break out in rec.games.frp every three or four months, demonstrating that there is significant amount of internal pressure to reorganize the various streams of roleplaying discussion currently in rec.games.frp. Several times in the past few years, proposals for the splitting of rec.games.frp have been made and bungled and thus the readers of rec.games.frp are chary of yet another split proposal for rec.games.frp. It is my opinion that this reorganization proposal avoids most of the problems with previous rec.games.frp reorganizations, mostly because it doesn't try to make an elegant division of discussion but rather draws lines where lines already exist. If passed, this reorganization will have the least amount of negative impact on rec.games.frp of any reorganization that I have seen proposed for rec.games.frp in several years of reading it. The rec.games.frp newsgroup has been one of the top 20 newsgroups in KB of postings for a while now, including several months with the dubious distinction of being first or second place among the discussion newsgroups on usenet. +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (kilobytes per month) | | | | | +-- Crossposting percentage | | | | | | +-- Cost ratio: $US/month/rdr | | | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V V V December 1991 18 47000 1073 80% 1668 4097.6 4% 0.14 2.7% rec.games.frp January 1992 7 52000 1094 79% 2453 7150.2 2% 0.23 2.7% rec.games.frp February 1992 7 42000 949 80% 2506 6944.7 3% 0.27 2.2% rec.games.frp March 1992 12 46000 934 79% 2545 6214.4 1% 0.22 2.2% rec.games.frp ----------------------- CREATE subgroups of rec.games.frp PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.advocacy PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: Frequently discussion on rec.games.frp amounts to vigorously overstated disagreement about the quality or lack thereof of a particular game system or game company. This unmoderated discussion newsgroup will give readers of rec.games.frp and the subgroups an outlet for such material. This newsgroup would be expected to hold such lines of discussion as: Champions versus GURPS; AD&Dv1 versus AD&Dv2; AD&D stinks; class systems versus skill based systems; game critiques wanted; mine are bigger than yours; and so on. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.announce PROPOSED STATUS: Moderated PROPOSED MODERATOR: Coyt Watters backup by Joshua Levy PROPOSED CHARTER: This group is intended for all announcements relating to roleplaying games. This may include, but is not limited to, game release announcements, pbem announcements, convention announcements, and any other events. Discussion of material in this newsgroup should be done in the appropriate roleplaying discussion group. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.archives PROPOSED STATUS: Moderated PROPOSED MODERATOR: Mitch Gold backup by Steve Mansfield PROPOSED CHARTER: This newsgroup will serve as a temporary archive for postings that should be archived on one of the anonymous ftp or mail-server sites, and which do not belong in one of the other roleplaying newsgroups. Therefore only finished work such as net.books, campaign background, convention modules, the tabolport project, fiction, poetry, compilations, and so on should be posted here. This newsgroup is not for discussion purposes, and discussion of anything in this newsgroup should take place in the appropriate roleplaying discussion group. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.dnd PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: This unmoderated discussion newsgroup is for discussion of the official rules and settings of the D&D family of roleplaying games, produced by TSR, Inc., including Collector's Edition Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), Basic D&D, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (AD&D), and AD&D Second Edition. This proposed newsgroup would include discussion of TSR's rules and products and compatible products, such as: character classes; character races; monsters; magic spells; weapons; Greyhawk; the Forgotten Realms; the Known World; Dark Sun; Spelljammer; RavenLoft; Hollow World; City State of the Invincible Overlord; and so on. Crossposting between this group and rec.games.frp is discouraged, however issues of general interest that happen to involve a D&D rulebook or setting are more than welcome in rec.games.frp. PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.marketplace PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: This unmoderated newsgroup is intended to hold For Sale and Wanted postings for roleplaying game materials. ----------------------- RENAME rec.games.frp TO rec.games.frp.misc PROPOSED NAME: rec.games.frp.misc PROPOSED STATUS: Unmoderated PROPOSED CHARTER: This is a discussion group for all aspects of roleplaying games. The name "frp" refers to Fantasy Role-Playing, but this does not mean that the scope of the group is restricted to pseudo medieval settings where magic is common and powerful. The common mis-use of the word "fantasy" comes from the marketing distinction between the literary genres of science fiction and fantasy. Fantasy actually means anything that is set in a time or place that is **in some essential way** unlike our own. Science Fiction fits this definition of fantasy, as do other genres including Horror, Tolkeinesque High Fantasy, and Westerns. Lines of discussion in this newsgroup can be expected to include, among other topics: roleplaying advice; gamemastering advice; reviews of roleplaying products; scenario ideas; rules; errata; gaming anecdotes; and many peripherally connected subjects. Crossposting between this group and other roleplaying discussion groups is to be discouraged. VOTING PERIOD Voting starts at 5:00 AM GMT 24 April 1992 and will continue until 5:00 AM GMT 16 May 1992. Any votes received outside of that time period will not count. HOW TO VOTE Please fill in the following ballot by replacing the underscores with either YES, NO, or ABSTAIN to register your vote, and send it to rgf-vote@wharton.upenn.edu. Replying to this posting will get your vote to the correct address. If you do not vote on a particular newsgroup you will be considered to have abstained from the vote on that newsgroup. Votes must be mailed to rgf-vote@wharton.upenn.edu. Posted votes will not be counted. Please do not include this entire posting in your vote. Just the vote itself is sufficient. BALLOT FORM ___ Proposal #1: CREATE rec.games.frp.advocacy ___ Proposal #2: CREATE rec.games.frp.announce ___ Proposal #3: CREATE rec.games.frp.archives ___ Proposal #4: CREATE rec.games.frp.dnd ___ Proposal #5: CREATE rec.games.frp.marketplace ___ Proposal #6: RENAME rec.games.frp TO rec.games.frp.misc If you want to roll your own ballot, the way of doing it most compatible with my vote counting software is to put each resulting newsgroup name on a separate line and precede the newsgroup name with your vote on that newsgroup, either YES, NO, or ABSTAIN. For example: YES #1 fubar.foo.foo NO #2 fubar.foo.bar ABSTAIN #3 fubar.foo.bar.foo Proposal numbers (#1, #4, etc) are also acceptable, and are less likely than names to be accidentally misspelled. If you vote more than once from the same address, only the most recent vote received will be counted as valid. If you vote more than once from different sites in an apparent attempt at a vote fraud, I may reject all your votes, and publish the fact and your name to the net. VOTES UNDER INVESTIGATION Before giving the list of voters to date, I must regrettably inform you all that there appear to have been irregular votes from one location, more than fifty votes were sent within a few minutes of each other from a number of accounts named after characters from norse mythology. I am investigating this, and until I can confirm which, if any, votes from that location are genuine I am not counting any of them. Here as an example are three of the votes I am not accepting without further investigation: GINNUNGIGAB@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM GJOLL@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM GLADSHEIM@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.Symbolics.COM MASS VOTE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT Here are the voters who have submitted valid votes, in the order received. If your name does not appear on this list, and you voted before May 7th, the date this acknowledgement was compiled, please send in your vote again. ritch@ucscb.UCSC.EDU "York H. Dobyns" "John S. Novak III" c9e-al@danube.berkeley.edu Michael Bowman Robert Crawford Jonathan Kruger Tor Iver Wilhelmsen Scott TCB Turner Brian Panulla Wayne MacLaurin adam@das.harvard.edu greenfie@gauss.rutgers.edu "Peter D. Cate" elk@cblpo.att.com - - - - - - - - jhc@iscp.bellcore.com Guinny imcc@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk Coyt D Watters Lutz Hofmann StarWatcher@uiuc.edu leeds@galaxy.harvard.edu Winfried Winkler "Roger Bradford Jones Jr." Jim Gaynor adams@spss.com ELDER J David nathan engle frost@helix.nih.gov burow@Athena.MIT.EDU james@mvuxd.att.com markcb@bedevere.asd.sgi.com Tim Dunn Darin McGrew brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com jspencer@world.std.com ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us sos@oz.plymouth.edu Renegade rwmira01@vlsi.ct.louisville.edu "D. W. James" Rob Caplan hades@coos.dartmouth.edu richmond@acsu.buffalo.edu Jonathan M Lennox Unterhund Joseph Edward Huesmann tsang@cs.washington.edu minnotte@rice.edu Andrew David Weiland "John W. Boelter" gharris@Jade.Tufts.EDU brett@meaddata.com "Mitchell E. Gold" jj@research.att.com dales@tekcci.cci.tek.com nv90-mho@nada.kth.se gt7691c@prism.gatech.edu Keith Woolner IK20001@MAINE.maine.edu Larry Smith grimmea@expert.cc.purdue.edu jk@mentor.cc.purdue.edu aclark@sdcc13.UCSD.EDU mjc@NL.CS.CMU.EDU JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU mikec@devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov es72218@cs.tut.fi Judy Anderson malloy@nprdc.navy.mil nigel@rs733.gsfc.nasa.gov grex@world.std.com jgrace@netcom.com m15543@mitre.org Chad Lundgren Jim Doherty smm@uunet.uu.net Craig Levin Chris Pearce Not Croaker Jay Maynard mmcalees@csr.UVic.CA "Peter F. Delaney" F67709323@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU dkfenger@sirius.UVic.CA acd@hotld.att.com TODD TURNBLOM jmh@anubis.network.com jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu "Martyn J. Wheeler" fau@po.CWRU.Edu jlesgold@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Corey Liss jpapp@ddt.eng.uc.EDU MacGyver s902114@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU Richard G Tomasso ystein Tvedten kgieselm@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU Jack Brown Jed Hartman krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu jdb@neocad.com mech%wdl30@wdl1.wdl.loral.com djb6@midway.uchicago.edu Nate Calvin Clay Luther Jonathan Sari lucas@scicom.alphacdc.com Michael Norrish Scott Northrop "Gym Z. Quirk" cdr@kpc.com dstrom@coherent.com bret@technix.technix.MN.ORG Bob Simpson draphsor@deathstar.Stanford.EDU Victoria C Fike belo@bcstec.ca.boeing.com "Mary K. Kuhner" d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se peterson@netcom.com jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu dopp@cs.bu.edu CHEPE@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU bm927@cleveland.Freenet.Edu a481@mindlink.bc.ca PPUGLIESE@PimaCC.Pima.edu heintzelman-george@CS.YALE.EDU hutch@hutch.intel.com woj@remus.rutgers.edu micky@srvmp21.physik.tu-berlin.de gee7759@bcstec.ca.boeing.com sekullbe@Athena.MIT.EDU orava@exterminator.cs.hut.fi mcwalla@algol.cs.umbc.edu laurence@cco.caltech.edu SL7SG@cc.usu.edu jeff@casbah.acns.nwu.edu rsm@delfax.Amiga.OCunix.On.Ca Juha Ylitalo dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com ads3@po.CWRU.Edu vjg@cblph.att.com "S. Lee" Mark A Nicol glennr@sdf.LoneStar.ORG Mutant for Hire doodsf@athena.ecs.csus.edu Ryoto@cup.portal.com jen@Athena.MIT.EDU Loball@cup.portal.com follick@chimayo.eece.unm.edu Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org Olle Sundblad labc-4aa@WEB.berkeley.edu sst@Athena.MIT.EDU jhawk@panix.com Sami Koskinen Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca space@altger2.altos.de Cyberpixie lso@lucy.trnet.bb.softpro.de karl@ttank.ttank.com weber@rhrk.uni-kl.de bdavis@artgate.cray.com Craig Alan Cook Julian D Lighton Lars Soltau goebel@emunix.emich.edu David Henry Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com vanrey@hippo.fido.de rabbit42@matt.ksu.ksu.edu boyd@colonial.eecs.umich.edu "Michael S. Schiffer" rleroux1@sol.UVic.CA pierre@thud.PRPA.Philips.COM James Smith cobra@catt.ncsu.edu Jonathan@RMIT.EDU.AU mike@raven.alaska.edu James_J_Kowalczyk@cup.portal.com johne@iti.gov.sg Ross Ridge Cynedd@cup.portal.com Robert Cohen Yves.Daniel@irisa.fr Ian Borchardt Mark Perew Philip.Dutre@cs.kuleuven.ac.be mar@physics.su.OZ.AU psgjf@cc.flinders.edu.au J|rn Hagerup Niels Ull Jacobsen sm@ncrsecp.copenhagen.NCR.COM Turgay Zengin "Craig D. Beere" capitol!thomas@uunet.UU.NET Eric Rowe cse4a028@eve.wright.edu. (CHARLES MOORE) adnd-l@armltd.co.uk Mike Whitaker Boudewijn Wayers Boudewijn Wayers owens@cookiemonster.cc.buffalo.edu foxx@foxxjac.b17a.ingr.com andyc@minster.york.ac.uk Mikael Lundgren michael kelly VINCE@VAXI.SSCL.UWO.CA haralkar@plusplus.is lwl@eniac.seas.upenn.edu alongley@cape.UWaterloo.ca electro!carlo@watcgl.waterloo.edu arensb@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov lespa@pa.dec.com capitol!house@uunet.UU.NET joshua@veritas.com "Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos" Viktor Haag rpwhite@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil Kurt Stephen Mark Austin gt7805b@vslab.gatech.edu matwood%fuggles@cs.utah.edu jjohnson@ccscola.columbiasc.NCR.COM College is 1 big bash w/ a $20000 cover tj@Alliant.COM kells@daimi.aau.dk d90-two@nada.kth.se sandia!marms@unmvax.cs.unm.edu Brian Carl Rich aka Dead Security Andres Harasty Sheila Wassmer phardie%nastar.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu millerl@desci.wharton.upenn.edu "David H. Thornley" Nervid@cup.portal.com "Michelle L. Zafron" E_MCCOY@UNHH.UNH.EDU ks25!dougw@decwrl.dec.com jwheeler@cco.caltech.edu cld@wucs1.wustl.edu ceg@pnet51.orb.mn.org Mike Basinger Dustin Tranberg wookiee@cup.portal.com Rick Ellis "Matthew W. Dicksion" leeu@nobeltech.se Jeff Gostin rhunt@med.unc.edu dseal@armltd.co.uk bmurphy@clodii.columbiasc.NCR.COM lawrence@world.std.com jackal@keps.kodak.com beykema@infonode.ingr.com "D. Scott Kitchen" Mike Krause Mark.Kampe@West.Sun.COM Marc Moorcroft Walter Milliken vaps0de@prism.gatech.edu Stupendous Man Neil Robinson Andy Young Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org short@asf.com Thomas Brettinger Bernd_Adameit@hippo.fido.de tewok@cs.UMD.EDU Martin Ward deane@mozart.IFA.Hawaii.Edu richard@nacjack.gen.nz ar_ind02@oswego.Oswego.EDU "Richard L. Butler" Tony Roman ericm@sparc2.informix.com phillips@syrinx.umd.edu eeh@btr.com Mark Grundy News Administrator Lord Yak Da Hairy peterson@netcom.com David Cook adray@mcs.kent.edu bmurphy@grok34.columbiasc.NCR.COM Paul Norris aperez@caribe.Prime.COM emcguire@intellection.com "And then the Universe stopped." scottc@bingo.ecb.tek.com SIP compiler1 cmlee@cory.berkeley.edu S|ren Egmose rmr@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu rdubbs@cs.tamu.edu Chris Seabrook "V8::ESWGRK" adobe!caro@Sun.COM gretchen@mica.berkeley.edu boender@dutiws.tudelft.nl C.G.C.vanDijk@IO.TUDelft.NL Guy Comstock Andrew Bell James Duncan swason@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk "J.D.Coleman" tsdavies@mailbox.syr.edu alan@nabeth.cxo.dec.com hourglas!jhm@uunet.UU.NET fau@po.CWRU.Edu "J.D.Coleman" brouille@shasta.Stanford.EDU garyf@cco.caltech.edu OTTO@vaxb.acs.unt.edu "Richard H. Miller" bq629@cleveland.Freenet.Edu chrisber@cco.caltech.edu luke@duane.research.canon.oz.au Rousseau Alain Ulrich Grepel S ann as a cheile a ni iad na caisteil "B.J. 04-May-1992 1608" Chris Racicot peterl@DIALix.oz.au bn244@cleveland.Freenet.Edu The Eternal Death-Bunny Dean Hougen Stephen Potter -- whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu The more corrupt the government, the greater the number of laws -- Tacitus From millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu Mon May 18 14:52:36 1992 Xref: uunet news.announce.newgroups:2359 news.groups:51174 rec.games.frp:68595 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.frp Path: uunet!bounce-back From: millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) Subject: RESULT: rec.games.frp reorganization passes Message-ID: <1992May18.182031.7764@uunet.uu.net> Followup-To: news.groups Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence) Organization: Newt World Order Date: Mon, 18 May 1992 18:20:31 GMT Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net Lines: 569 RESULTS OF REORGANIZATION VOTE FOR REC.GAMES.FRP After discounting 17 duplicate votes, and 68 votes with obviously phony names that were submitted from the same site within a few minutes of each other (which were rejected as a transparent attempt to stuff the ballot box), 448 people voted on the reorganization of rec.games.frp. Because of abstain votes on individual newsgroups, none of the pairings following actually add up to 448. groupname result count margin percent ---------- ------ ----- ------ ------- rec.games.frp.advocacy passes 329:100 229 76.7% rec.games.frp.announce moderated passes 366:72 294 83.6% rec.games.frp.archives moderated passes 357:69 288 83.8% rec.games.frp.dnd passes 357:84 273 81.0% rec.games.frp.marketplace passes 348:76 272 82.1% rec.games.frp.misc passes 328:104 224 75.9% As shown, all proposals have passed under the voting criteria in the guidelines for creating new groups, namely yes votes exceed no's by 100 or more and yes votes form at least 66.7% of all votes. SUMMARY OF QUESTIONS DECIDED BY THIS VOTE NAME: rec.games.frp.advocacy CHARTER: Frequently discussion on rec.games.frp amounts to vigorously overstated disagreement about the quality or lack thereof of a particular game system or game company. This unmoderated discussion newsgroup will give readers of the rec.games.frp hierarchy an outlet for such material. This newsgroup would be expected to hold such lines of discussion as: Champions versus GURPS; AD&Dv1 versus AD&Dv2; AD&D stinks; class systems versus skill based systems; game critiques wanted; mine are bigger than yours; and so on. NAME: rec.games.frp.announce (Moderated) MODERATOR: Coyt Watters backup by Joshua Levy CHARTER: This group is intended for all announcements relating to roleplaying games. This may include, but is not limited to, game release announcements, pbem announcements, convention announcements, and any other events. Discussion of material in this newsgroup should be done in the appropriate roleplaying discussion group. NAME: rec.games.frp.archives (Moderated) MODERATOR: Mitch Gold backup by Steve Mansfield CHARTER: This newsgroup will serve as a temporary archive for postings that should be archived on one of the anonymous ftp or mail-server sites, and which do not belong in one of the other roleplaying newsgroups. Therefore only finished work such as net.books, campaign background, convention modules, the tabolport project, fiction, poetry, compilations, and so on should be posted here. This newsgroup is not for discussion purposes, and discussion of anything in this newsgroup should take place in the appropriate roleplaying discussion group. NAME: rec.games.frp.dnd CHARTER: This unmoderated discussion newsgroup is for discussion of the official rules and settings of the D&D family of roleplaying games, produced by TSR, Inc., including Collector's Edition Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), Basic D&D, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (AD&D), and AD&D Second Edition. This proposed newsgroup would include discussion of TSR's rules and products and compatible products, such as: character classes; character races; monsters; magic spells; weapons; Greyhawk; the Forgotten Realms; the Known World; Dark Sun; Spelljammer; RavenLoft; Hollow World; City State of the Invincible Overlord; and so on. Crossposting between this group and other groups in the rec.games.frp hierarchy is discouraged, however issues of general interest that happen to involve a D&D rulebook or setting are more than welcome. NAME: rec.games.frp.marketplace CHARTER: This unmoderated newsgroup is intended to hold For Sale and Wanted postings for roleplaying game materials. RENAME rec.games.frp TO rec.games.frp.misc NAME: rec.games.frp.misc CHARTER: This is a discussion group for all aspects of roleplaying games. The name "frp" refers to Fantasy Role-Playing, but this does not mean that the scope of the group is restricted to pseudo medieval settings where magic is common and powerful. The common mis-use of the word "fantasy" comes from the marketing distinction between the literary genres of science fiction and fantasy. Fantasy actually means anything that is set in a time or place that is **in some essential way** unlike our own. Science Fiction fits this definition of fantasy, as do other genres including Horror, Tolkeinesque High Fantasy, and Westerns. Lines of discussion in this newsgroup can be expected to include, among other topics: roleplaying advice; gamemastering advice; reviews of roleplaying products; scenario ideas; rules; errata; gaming anecdotes; and many peripherally connected subjects. Crossposting between this group and other roleplaying discussion groups is to be discouraged. LIST OF VOTERS Following are the voters who submitted valid, unambigious ballots before the deadline, which was 5AM GMT May 16, 1992, sorted in ascii order. The vote listing shows a 'y' or 'n' for each of the six questions on the ballot, or 'a' when the voter did not express a preference. If anyone desires to see the complete text of all the votes (~570KB) please E-mail me and I will send it your way or make it available in some fashion. +----------- Create rec.games.frp.advocacy | +--------- Create rec.games.frp.announce moderated | | +------- Create rec.games.frp.archives moderated | | | +----- Create rec.games.frp.dnd | | | | +--- Create rec.games.frp.marketplace | | | | | +- Rename rec.games.frp to rec.games.frp.misc | | | | | | V V V V V V y y a y y y "And then the Universe stopped." y y y y y y "B.J. 04-May-1992 1608" y y y y y y "Craig D. Beere" n n n n n n "D. Scott Kitchen" n n n n n n "D. W. James" y y y y y y "David B. Harrington" y y y y y y "David H. Thornley" n y n y y a "G. Host" n a a n a n "Gym Z. Quirk" y y y y y y "J.D.Coleman" y y y y y y "John S. Novak III" n y a y y y "John W. Boelter" y n y n y y "Klaus Singvogel (Inf4 - hiwi)" y y y y y y "Lance A. Brown" y y y y y y "Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos" y y y n y y "Mark....Booth" y y n n y n "Martyn J. Wheeler" n y y y y y "Mary K. Kuhner" n n a n a n "Matthew W. Dicksion" y y y y y y "Michael C. Smit" y y y y y y "Michael S. Schiffer" y y y y y y "Michael Sawyer (NCSU)" y y y y y y "Michelle L. Zafron" y y y y y y "Mitchell E. Gold" y y y y y y "Peter D. Cate" n y y y n y "Peter F. Delaney" y y y y y n "Phil Scadden, Resource Information, ERD, MoC" n y n y n n "Richard H. Miller" y y y y y y "Richard L. Butler" y y y y n y "Roger Bradford Jones Jr." y y y y y y "Rupert G. Goldie" y y y y y y "S. Lee" y y y n y y "Steven E. Newton" y y y y y y "V8::ESWGRK" y y y y y y "York H. Dobyns" y n y y n a - - - - - - - - y y y y y n A Sturman y y y y y y ALLENS%EARLHAM.BITNET@UICVM.UIC.EDU n y y y y y Andres Harasty y y y y y y Andrew Bell y y n y y y Andrew David Weiland n n y y y n Andrew Hummell y y y y y y Andrew Pearlman n n n n n n Andy Young y y y y y y Baidins@cis.udel.edu a a y y a n Bernd_Adameit@hippo.fido.de y y n y y n Bob Simpson n n n n n n Bob Sloane y y y y y y Boudewijn Wayers y y y n y y Brian Carl n y y y y y Brian Panulla a y a y y n Brian Vickers y y y y y y C.G.C.vanDijk@IO.TUDelft.NL y y y y y y CHEPE@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU y y y y y y Chad Lundgren y y y y y y Chris Klausmeier n y y y y n Chris Pearce y y y y y y Chris Racicot y n n y y y Chris Seabrook y y y n y y Clay Luther y y y y y a College is 1 big bash w/ a $20000 cover n n n n n n Corey Liss a y a y a n Coyt D Watters y y y y y y Craig Alan Cook y y y y a y Craig Levin y y y y y y Curtis M Scott y y y y y y Cyberpixie n n n n n n Cynedd@cup.portal.com n n y n y y D8DX@VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU y y y y y y DAVIS@licr.dn.mu.oz.au y y y y y y Darin McGrew y n y y y y Dave.P.Martin@Sun.COM y y a y a y David Cook n y y y y n David Henry y y y y y y Dean Hougen y y y y y n Doug Gibson y y y y y y Dustin Tranberg y y y y y y ELDER J David y a y y y a E_MCCOY@UNHH.UNH.EDU y y y y y y Eric Rowe n n y n n a F67709323@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU y y y y y y Faisal Nameer Jawdat n n n n n n Gary Tse y y a y a y Gneel n a a a a a Greg Lindahl y y y y y y Gregory R Block y y y y y y Guinny y y y y y y Guy Comstock y y n n n n IK20001@MAINE.maine.edu y y y y y n IN%"@Sweden.EU.net:alindbac@abbaut" "Anders LindbLck" y y y y y y Ian Borchardt y y y y y y Ingo Wilken n y y y y n JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU y n y y y a Jack Brown y y y y y n James Duncan y y n y n y James Ronald Simonds n y y y y y James Smith n n n n n n James_J_Kowalczyk@cup.portal.com y y y y y y Jay Maynard y y y y y y Jed Hartman y y y y y y Jeff Gostin y y y y y y Jim Doherty y y n y y y Jim Gaynor y y y y y n John Curtis 665-1038 n y y a y a Jon Gad y y y y y y Jonathan Kruger n y a y y y Jonathan M Lennox y y y y y y Jonathan Sari y y y y y n Jonathan@RMIT.EDU.AU y y y y y y Joseph Edward Huesmann y y y y y y Judy Anderson n y y y n y Juha Ylitalo y y y n y y Julian D Lighton n y y y y y J|rn Hagerup y n y y a y Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org y y y y y y Keith Woolner y y y y y y Kurt y y y y y n Kurt Sitting on the Dock of the Bose y y y y y y LINDSELL@RSC3.anu.edu.au n y n n y n Lance Cogsworth Smith y y y n y y Larry Smith y y y y y y Lars Soltau y y y y y y Leung Paul y y y y y y Loball@cup.portal.com y y a y a y Lord Yak Da Hairy y y y y y y Lutz Hofmann n y y y y y MORROW@FNAL.FNAL.GOV y y y y y y MacGyver n n a n n n Marc Moorcroft y y y y y y Mark A Nicol y y n y y n Mark Grundy n n n n n n Mark Perew a a a y y y Mark.Kampe@West.Sun.COM y y y y y y Martin Ward y y y y y y Michael Bowman n n n n n n Michael Bryan y y y y y y Michael Norrish y y y y y y Mikael Lundgren y y y y y y Mike Basinger n n n n n n Mike Krause y y y n y y Mike Whitaker y y y y y y Mikko Lahti y y y y y y Moren Jan y y y y y y Mutant for Hire y y y y y y Nate Calvin y y y y y n Neil Robinson n y y y y y Nervid@cup.portal.com y y y y y y News Administrator y y y n n n Nick Gibbins y y y y y a Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca y n y n y y Niels Ull Jacobsen n n n n n n Not Croaker y y y y y y OTTO@vaxb.acs.unt.edu y y y y y y Olle Sundblad n n n n n n Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com y y y y y y PAB@newton.npl.co.uk n n n n n n PPUGLIESE@PimaCC.Pima.edu y y y y y y Paul Norris y y n y y y Phil Kernick y y y y y n Philip.Dutre@cs.kuleuven.ac.be a n n y n n RDT111@PSUVM.PSU.EDU y y y y y y Renegade y y y y y y Rich aka Dead Security y y y y y n Richard G Tomasso n n n n n n Rick Ellis y y y y y y Rob Caplan y y y y y y Robert Cohen y y y y y n Robert Crawford y y y y y y Roland Kaltefleiter y y y n y y Ronald Kunenborg n n n n n n Ross Ridge y y y y y y Rousseau Alain y y y y y y Ryoto@cup.portal.com y y y n y y S ann as a cheile a ni iad na caisteil y y y y y y SIP compiler1 y y y n n y SL7SG@cc.usu.edu y y y y y y SMPAND06@Uctvax.UCT.AC.ZA y y y y y y Sami Koskinen y y y y y y Scott Northrop y y y y y y Scott TCB Turner y n y n n n Sheila Wassmer n n n n n n Silk y y y y y y Snafu the Dwarf y n n y n n StarWatcher@uiuc.edu y y y y y y Stephen Mark Austin n y y y n y Stephen Potter n y y n y y Student in Exile y y y y y y Stupendous Man y y y y y y S|ren Egmose y y y y y y TODD TURNBLOM y y y y y y Tero Kivinen y y y y y y The Captain Ebony y y y a y y The Eternal Death-Bunny y y y y y y Thomas Brettinger y y y y y y Tim Dunn y y y y y y Tim Hagman y y y n y y Timothy D Little y y y y y y Tom Limoncelli y y y y y y Tony Roman n n n n n n Tor Iver Wilhelmsen n y y n y y Troy Kammerdiener n y y y y n Turgay Zengin y y y y y y Ulrich Grepel n y y y n y Unterhund y y y y y y VINCE@VAXI.SSCL.UWO.CA n y y n y n Vicki Domansky y y y y y y Victoria C Fike n n y n y n Viktor Haag y y y y y y Walter Milliken y y y y y y Warlock y y y y y y Wayne MacLaurin n y y y y n Winfried Winkler a a y y y y Wishnu Prasetya y y y y y y Yves.Daniel@irisa.fr y y y y y y a481@mindlink.bc.ca n y y y y y acd@hotld.att.com y y y y y y aclark@sdcc13.UCSD.EDU y y y y a y adam@das.harvard.edu y y y y y y adams@spss.com a y y n y a adnd-l@armltd.co.uk y y y y y y adobe!caro@Sun.COM y y y y y y adray@mcs.kent.edu y y y y y a ads3@po.CWRU.Edu y y y y y y agoper@ccu.UManitoba.CA y y y y y y aking@mrc-crc.ac.uk y y y y y n alan@nabeth.cxo.dec.com y y y y y y alongley@cape.UWaterloo.ca y y a y a y amdcad!osc!jgk@uunet.UU.NET y y y y y y andrew@folly.welly.gen.nz n n n y n n andyc@minster.york.ac.uk y y y y y y aperez@caribe.Prime.COM y y y y y a ar_ind02@oswego.Oswego.EDU y y y y y y arensb@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov y y y y y y b-boesen@adfa.oz.au n y n y y y bailey@zonker.ph.utexas.edu a y a y a y bdavis@artgate.cray.com y y y y y y belo@bcstec.ca.boeing.com y y y y y y beykema@infonode.ingr.com y y y y y y bm927@cleveland.Freenet.Edu n n n y n n bmurphy@clodii.columbiasc.NCR.COM y y y y y y bn244@cleveland.Freenet.Edu y y y y y y boender@dutiws.tudelft.nl y y y y y y bowdidge@cs.UCSD.EDU y y y y y y boyd@colonial.eecs.umich.edu y y y y y n bq629@cleveland.Freenet.Edu y y y y y y bret@technix.technix.MN.ORG y y y y y y brett@meaddata.com a y a y y n brian_vickers@isd.jpl.nasa.gov y y y y y y brouille@shasta.Stanford.EDU y n y n y n brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com y y y y y y bs613@cleveland.Freenet.Edu y y y y y y burow@Athena.MIT.EDU y y y y y n c9e-al@danube.berkeley.edu y y y y y y capitol!house@uunet.UU.NET y y y y y y capitol!thomas@uunet.UU.NET y y y y y y caw@soft.gtech.com n n n n n n cdr@kpc.com y y y y y y ceg@pnet51.orb.mn.org a y y y a y cep@blowfish.taligent.com n n n n n n chrisber@cco.caltech.edu y y y y y y ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us y y y n y y cld@wucs1.wustl.edu a y y y a y cmlee@cory.berkeley.edu n y y y y y cobra@catt.ncsu.edu y y y y y y cse4a028@eve.wright.edu. (CHARLES MOORE) y y y y y a curtis@sporty.col.oh.us y y y y y y cvl@Athena.MIT.EDU n y y y y y d90-two@nada.kth.se n n n n n y d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se y y y y y y dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca y y y y y y dales@tekcci.cci.tek.com y y y y y y deane@mozart.IFA.Hawaii.Edu n n n n n n dfrancis@tronsbox.xei.com y y y y y n djb6@midway.uchicago.edu n y y n n n dkfenger@sirius.UVic.CA n n n n n n dmarshal@Stars.Reston.Unisys.COM y y y n y y dmccart@modl01.intel.com n n n n n n doodsf@athena.ecs.csus.edu y y y y y y dopp@cs.bu.edu y y y y a y dowlr@wfunet.wfu.edu y y a y y y draphsor@deathstar.Stanford.EDU a a a a a n drew@geology.wisc.edu y y y y y y dseal@armltd.co.uk y y y y y y dsk1780@usl.edu y y y y y y dstrom@coherent.com y y y y y n eeh@btr.com y y y y y y electro!carlo@watcgl.waterloo.edu y y y y a y elk@cblpo.att.com y y y y y y emcguire@intellection.com y y y y y y ericm@sparc2.informix.com n n n n n n es72218@cs.tut.fi n n y y n y fau@po.CWRU.Edu y y y y y y fkk@stasys.sta.sub.org y y y y y y follick@chimayo.eece.unm.edu y y y y y y foxx@foxxjac.b17a.ingr.com a a y y y y frohne@radium.informatik.uni-bonn.de y y y y y y frost@helix.nih.gov y y y y y y garyf@cco.caltech.edu y y y y y y gee7759@bcstec.ca.boeing.com n y y y y y gharris@Jade.Tufts.EDU y y y y y y glennr@sdf.LoneStar.ORG y y y y y y goebel@emunix.emich.edu y y y y y y greenfie@gauss.rutgers.edu n n n n n n gretchen@mica.berkeley.edu y y y y y n grex@world.std.com y y y y y y grimmea@expert.cc.purdue.edu y y y y y y gt3622a@prism.gatech.edu y y y y y y gt7691c@prism.gatech.edu y y y y y y gt7805b@vslab.gatech.edu y y y y y y hades@coos.dartmouth.edu y y y y y y hand@spc9.jpl.nasa.gov y y y y a y haralkar@plusplus.is y y y y y y heintzelman-george@CS.YALE.EDU y y y y y y hourglas!jhm@uunet.UU.NET y y y y n y hutch@hutch.intel.com y y y y y y icsu8249@cs.montana.edu y y y y y y imcc@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk y y y y y y jackal@keps.kodak.com y y y y y y jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu y y y y y y james@mvuxd.att.com n y y y y y jdb@neocad.com y y y n y n jdean@psl.nmsu.edu y y y y y y jeff@casbah.acns.nwu.edu y y y y y y jen@Athena.MIT.EDU y y y y y a jford@aisun1.ai.uga.edu y y y y y y jgrace@netcom.com y y y y y n jhawk@panix.com y y y y y y jhc@iscp.bellcore.com y y y y y y jj@research.att.com a y y n y y jjohnson@ccscola.columbiasc.NCR.COM y y y y y y jk@mentor.cc.purdue.edu y y y y y y jl77350@ee.tut.fi y y n y y y jlesgold@casbah.acns.nwu.edu n n n n n n jmh@anubis.network.com y y y n y n jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu y y y y y y johne@iti.gov.sg y y y y y y johnf@apollo.hp.com y y y y y y joshua@veritas.com y y y y y y jpapp@ddt.eng.uc.EDU y y n y n y jspencer@world.std.com y y y y y y jwheeler@cco.caltech.edu n y y y y n kalafut@emunix.emich.edu y y y y y y karl@ttank.ttank.com y y n a n y kells@daimi.aau.dk n n n n n n ken@netcom.com y y y y y y kgieselm@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU n n n y y y kreme@isis.cs.du.edu n n n n n n krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu n n n n n n ks25!dougw@decwrl.dec.com a y y y a y labc-4aa@WEB.berkeley.edu y y y y y n laurence@cco.caltech.edu y y y y n y lawrence@world.std.com y y y y y y leeds@galaxy.harvard.edu y y y y y y leeu@nobeltech.se n n n n n n lespa@pa.dec.com y y y y y y lso@lucy.trnet.bb.softpro.de y n a y y n lucas@scicom.alphacdc.com y y y y y y luke@duane.research.canon.oz.au y y y y y y lwl@eniac.seas.upenn.edu y y y y a y m15543@mitre.org y y y y y y m85ama@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se y y y y y y magus@netcom.com n n n y n n malloy@nprdc.navy.mil y y y y y y mar@physics.su.OZ.AU y n y y n y markcb@bedevere.asd.sgi.com y y y y y y matwood%fuggles@cs.utah.edu y y y y y y mcwalla@algol.cs.umbc.edu y y y y a y mech%wdl30@wdl1.wdl.loral.com n n n n n n mehta@ucunix.san.uc.EDU y y y y y y memalph!elin@asuvax.eas.asu.edu n n y n n n mfalsone@acsu.buffalo.edu n y n y y n michael kelly y n y y y y micky@srvmp21.physik.tu-berlin.de y y y y y y mike@raven.alaska.edu n y y y y n mikec@devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov y y y y y y millerl@desci.wharton.upenn.edu y y y y y y milun@cs.Buffalo.EDU y y y y y y minnotte@rice.edu a y a y y y mjc@NL.CS.CMU.EDU y y y y y y mmcalees@csr.UVic.CA y y y y y a mpaf1216@med.unc.edu y y y y y y mvw@anywhere.umd.edu y y n y y y nathan engle y y a y y y nexus@neit.cgd.ucar.EDU y y y y n y nigel@rs733.gsfc.nasa.gov y y y y y y nv90-mho@nada.kth.se a y y a a y oea n y y y y y orava@exterminator.cs.hut.fi n n n n n n owens@cookiemonster.cc.buffalo.edu y y y y y y packard@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu y y y y a y peterl@DIALix.oz.au y y y y y y peterson@netcom.com n a n n n y phardie%nastar.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu n y y y n y phillips@syrinx.umd.edu y y y y y y pierre@thud.PRPA.Philips.COM n n n n n n pjb4288@ultb.isc.rit.edu y y y y y y psgjf@cc.flinders.edu.au y y y y y y rabbit42@matt.ksu.ksu.edu y y y y y y ratinox@meceng.coe.northeastern.edu y y y y y y rdubbs@cs.tamu.edu y y y y y y rhunt@med.unc.edu y y y y y n richard@nacjack.gen.nz y y y y y y richmond@acsu.buffalo.edu y y y y y y ritch@ucscb.UCSC.EDU n y y a y y rleroux1@sol.UVic.CA y y y y y y rmr@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu n n n n n n rpwhite@taurus.cs.nps.navy.mil y y y y y y rsm@delfax.Amiga.OCunix.On.Ca n n n n n n rsparrow@cs.umr.edu y y y y y y rwmira01@vlsi.ct.louisville.edu y y y y y y s082@brems.ii.uib.no y y y y y y s861022@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU y y y y y y s902114@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU y y y y y y s924125@minyos.xx.rmit.OZ.AU y y y y y y sandia!marms@unmvax.cs.unm.edu n n n n n n scottc@bingo.ecb.tek.com y y y y y n sekullbe@Athena.MIT.EDU n n n n n n sequent!techbook.com!tsouth@uunet.UU.NET y y y y y y short@asf.com n n n n n n sm@ncrsecp.copenhagen.NCR.COM y y y y y y smm@uunet.uu.net n n n y y y sos@oz.plymouth.edu y y y y y y space@altger2.altos.de y y y y y y sparcom!karl@uu.psi.com y a y n n a sst@Athena.MIT.EDU y y y y y y swason@computer-science.strathclyde.ac.uk y y a y y y swf@teradata.com n y y y n y sxs@apix.psu.edu y y y y y y tewok@cs.UMD.EDU a y y y y y thornton@pollux.cs.bucknell.edu n n n n n n tj@Alliant.COM y y y y y y tomc@shock.njit.edu n n n n n n tsang@cs.washington.edu y y y y y y tsdavies@mailbox.syr.edu y y y y y n turek@cps.msu.edu y y y y y y urban@stout.atd.ucar.EDU y y y y y y vanrey@hippo.fido.de y y y y y y vaps0de@prism.gatech.edu y y y n y y vjg@cblph.att.com y y y y y y ward1@husc.harvard.edu y y y y y y weber@rhrk.uni-kl.de n n y n y n welch@mda.ecs.umass.edu a n y y n y wiz@donald.phast.umass.edu n y y n y y woj@remus.rutgers.edu y y y y y y wolves!ggw@duke.cs.duke.edu n n n n n n wookiee@cup.portal.com y y y y y y xsbb13@ucrmath.ucr.edu n n n n n n ystein Tvedten -- whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu The more corrupt the government, the greater the number of laws -- Tacitus From millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu Tue Sep 12 10:46:27 1995 Xref: rpi news.announce.newgroups:1884 news.groups:40203 rec.games.frp:53838 Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.games.frp Path: rpi!bounce-back From: millerl@wilma.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) Subject: RFD: rec.games.frp reorganization Followup-To: news.groups Sender: tale@cs.rpi.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: cs.rpi.edu Organization: Moss and Fern, Inc. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1992 05:56:52 GMT Approved: tale@rpi.edu Lines: 135 Status: RO X-Status: ON THE CREATION OF A REC.GAMES.FRP HIERARCHY I propose the creation of several new newsgroups called rec.games.frp.marketplace, rec.games.frp.creative, rec.games.frp.pbem, rec.games.frp.cons, rec.games.frp.advocacy, and rec.games.frp.dnd. The rec.games.frp newsgroup currently supports about a thousand messages per week and, according to the regularly posted statistics, is now the largest single discussion group on the usenet, so dividing the newsgroup may be in order. Following are the proposed subgroups in alphabetical order along with combination proposals and first drafts of their charters. 1. rec.games.frp.advocacy Frequently discussion on rec.games.frp amounts to vigorously overstated disagreement about the quality or lack thereof of a particular game system or game company. This newsgroup will give readers of rec.games.frp and the subgroups an outlet for such material. This newsgroup would be expected to hold such lines of discussion as: the superiority of the Hero system to GURPS or vice versa; class systems stink; skill based systems stink; one game company is really really obnoxious; mine are bigger than yours; roleplaying games lead to satanism and murder; and so on. 2. rec.games.frp.cons Roleplaying games are a social activity of a subculture, much like involvement in science fiction literature, computer programming, or the society for creative anachronism. As a subculture, roleplaying gamers frequently have conventions at which they can join together and play games with like minded people. Convention announcements and discussions frequently get lost in the mass of postings on rec.games.frp. This newsgroup will offer a place for announcements of roleplaying game conventions, discussions of past rpg conventions, and discussion on the organization of rpg conventions. 3. rec.games.frp.creative Roleplaying gamers, as modern inheritors of the ancient role of the storyteller, are highly involved in writing of many different types, including: fiction; poetry; filksongs; invented history; analysis of history and anthropology for roleplaying purposes; adventure modules; rules; errata for rules; rules variants; errata for rules variants; and so on. This newsgroup would provide an area for this sort of material to be placed. This newsgroup would be intended for finished material only. It would not be intended for discussion. Discussion of anything posted in this newsgroup should be done in the root group, rec.games.frp. Whether this subgroup should be moderated, and who would moderate it (not me), is up for discussion. 4. rec.games.frp.dnd One company produces a family of roleplaying games that has been around long enough and maintained enough of its appeal to sustain a discussion group on its own. This group is the D&D family of roleplaying games, produced by TSR, Inc., including Collector's Edition Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), Basic D&D, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (AD&D), and AD&D Second Edition. This proposed newsgroup would include discussion of TSR's rules and products and compatible products, such as: character classes; character races; monsters; magic spells; weapons; Greyhawk; the Forgotten Realms; the Known World; Dark Sun; Spelljammer; RavenLoft; Hollow World; City State of the Invincible Overlord; and so on. 5. rec.games.frp.marketplace Many readers of rec.games.frp use the newsgroup in order to buy or sell roleplaying game related items. This traffic is small compared to the torrent of information on rec.games.frp and is likely to get lost otherwise. Likewise, when one is looking for interesting discussion it is irritating to run into an advertisement of sale. 6. rec.games.frp.pbem Many readers of rec.games.frp participate in "play by e-mail", or pbem, games. This newsgroup would offer a place to organize them and exchange advice specific to the play of pbem games. Following the creation of these subgroups rec.games.frp would continue to perform the same function it does currently, with discussion of issues of interest to players and gamemasters of many different roleplaying games. The subgroups are, with the exception of the .dnd subgroup, peripheral to the main lines of discussion in rec.games.frp and would benefit from the proposed differentiation. The .dnd subgroup as proposed would be very much like the current rec.games.frp newsgroup, but it would give d&d players a separate place for discussion as d&d players have requested many times in the past. rec.games.frp is an extremely large discussion group in which flamewars over splitting pop up every two or three months, usually at semester breaks, and even though the arguments against splitting on game lines hold as strong as ever today, there is no question that discussion in the newsgroup would carry on without a noticeable decrease in quality or insight even if the d&d family of games were split off from the main group. Likewise, d&d will generate sufficient discussion to ensure a high quality newsgroup. ISSUES TO BE DISCUSSED FOR EACH GROUP a) Should the group be unmoderated? Especially, this question is pertinent for rec.games.frp.creative. I do not think it is appropriate for the other groups, but that is just my opinion. b) Should the proposed charters be modified? How? c) Will the traffic in .pbem, .marketplace, and .cons be large enough to justify their existence? d) Anything else you think is important ISSUES NOT TO BE DISCUSSED a) renaming rec.games.frp. Despite popular misuse, fantasy role playing does not refer strictly to pseudo-medieval settings, but instead partakes of a more formal definition of fantasy as referring to any time or place that is in some essential way unlike our own. This matter will be left up to someone even more masochistic than I am. b) my supposed ancestry Judging from previous split discussions, after this RFD several people will pop up with competing and incompatible proposals for the split of rec.games.frp. For the sake of clarity, let me formally name this particular proposal the H-BOMB proposal in honor of its probable effect on discussion in rec.games.frp :(. If others are going to name their proposals too, please choose something completely different for your name, ok? For those who haven't been part of the newsgroup creation process before, there will be a discussion period of a couple weeks, lasting until April 7, 1992. The discussion will take place in the news.groups newsgroup. If it still seems that there is appropriate interest, I will then issue a call for votes. If YES votes outnumber NO votes by at least 100 and achieve a 2/3 majority, then the new group will be created. Do not vote now. Now is not the time for voting. Now is the time for discussion. -- whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu Throw this screen against the wall, right now!