41. Can I use metal utensils with sourdough?

A sourdough starter is acidic. Prolonged contact of your acidic
starter with metal will discolor your metal utensil and dissolve tiny
amount of the metal into the starter if you leave it for, say, weeks.
So it is not a good idea to keep a sourdough starter in a metal
container unless you want discolored, or given years of contact,
damaged utensils. Your starter, or you, may not like the small amount
of metal that is dissolved into the starter either.

So use a starter container made of a material that is not affected by
acid. My personal preference are standard wide mouth glass quart
canning jars, also known in North America as Mason jars. Mason jars
are readily available and the wide mouth makes them easy to clean.
Glass is highly acid resistant, very easy to clean and sterilize,
which makes it a preferred material for starter storage.

In the short time of mixing and rising of sourdough bread, the effect
of a slightly acidic mix is not noticeable on metal utensils, such as
spoons and bowls. So there is simply no problem in using metal
utensils, especially stainless steel utensils, to make sourdough
bread.

-Darrell

------------------------------

42. What is a good source for technical information on sourdough starters?

Here are links to several useful and interesting technical sources :

The first four URLs are noted as "Long Technical Posts 1-4" by Dan
Wing and are correspondence from Michael Gaenzle to Dan Wing. Michael
is commenting on the first proof of Dan's book, The Bread Builders -
Hearth Loaves and Masonry Ovens' by Dan Wing and Alan Scott, an
excellent book by the way.See
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whataboutdanwingsnewbookth.html for my
review.

<a
href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a&ic=1&selm=wagons-0301041020310001%40port-1-26.wellsriver.connriver.net">Long
Technical Post 1 by Dan Wing</a>

<a
href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a&ic=1&selm=wagons-0301041021200001%40port-1-26.wellsriver.connriver.net">Long
Technical Post 2 by Dan Wing</a>

<a
href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a&ic=1&selm=wagons-0301041021590001%40port-1-26.wellsriver.connriver.net">Long
Technical Post 3 by Dan Wing</a>

<a
href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a&ic=1&selm=wagons-0301041022540001%40port-1-26.wellsriver.connriver.net">Long
Technical Post 4 by Dan Wing</a>

More <a
href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a&ic=1&selm=Darrell_Greenwood-ya02408000R1502971627290001%40news.mindlink.net">technical
correspondence</a> by Dan Wing

Sam Kinsey with some <a
href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a&ic=1&selm=6igrn7%24b28%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com">quotes
and comments</a> on yeast growth

Sam Kinsey with <a
href="http://groups.google.com/groups?q=a&ic=1&selm=6idcrr%24evv%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com">some
quotes</a> from the American Association of Cereal Chemists site

Search over 38 years of Cereal Chemistry Abstracts at
http://www.scisoc.org/aacc/searchcs/

-Sam/Darrell

------------------------------

43. How do I convert yeast bread recipes to SD recipes?

When converting recipes to sourdough I always make sure that I build
my "sponge" with the smallest possible inoculum (usually a
tablespoon). This way, you know exactly how much water and flour you
are using (it's never easy to tell how much of what you're actually
getting when you take starter directly from the jar unless you weigh
the ingredients and maintain a 1:1 starter).

In general, I think it is a good idea to build a nice active sponge
that contains somewhere between 5% and 20% of the total flour in the
recipe. You will want to experiment with the percentage of sponge to
see which results you like.

Here is a hypothetical example of what I mean: Let's say that the
original recipe calls for 1000g of flour, 600g water, 20g salt and
20g yeast... If I wanted a 20% inoculum, I would make a sponge using
200g (20% of 1000g) flour, 300g water and one tablespoon of starter.
Once the sponge was nice and active, I'd mix the sponge with 800g
flour, 300g water and 20g salt. By using this method, I know that my
dough has exactly the same amount of flour/water as the original
recipe. At this point, all I have to do is mix the ingredients
according to the recipe, proof and bake. The "new" version of the
recipe should turn out very similar to the original, since the only
substantial difference is in method of leavening.

Two things to keep in mind: 1. One cannot generally do multiple
risings with sourdough as with yeast doughs. The rising schedules
called for in the original recipe should be modified with this in
mind. 2. The defining characteristics of certain bread styles seem
fairly dependent on fast-acting yeast. For example, a sourdough
baguette or a sourdough ciabatta will not be all that similar to the
original.

-Sam

------------------------------

44. What is meant by a "fully activated" starter?

You want to mix your dough when your starter (or sponge) is fully activated.

I'd suggest that you take a few days and get to know your starter and
its cycles. You might want to find some sort of container that you
can mark - either with a pen or a piece of tape or you can tape a
strip of paper vertically on the container and use that. Glass
canning jars work well and you can easily see into them, or anything
else that's straight-sided (easier to judge volume increases than
flared-sided containers, like most bowls).

Take a little starter and feed it, in whatever ratio of starter to
new food you intend to use regularly (I tend to use 1 oz starter and
add 6 oz combined flour and water (or even 4 oz combined water and
flour if I'm going to be doing a number of feeding cycle), but use
what you are comfortable with). Feed the starter and then just watch
it. Every hour mark the container as to the level of the starter.
Check it after 12 hours. If it's started to separate and form hooch,
feed it again. If not, leave it for another 12 hours.

Next time you feed it, discard most of the starter (or use it bake
with or to build a sponge) and add your water and flour (I do the
same as I described above, discard down to 1 oz, add water & flour. I
add equal amounts of water and flour by weight, not by volume (I just
find it easier, and I always know how much of an amount of starter is
water and how much is flour). This gives me a pretty thick starter,
which is my preference).

The cycle of a starter after being fed and left to sit out at room temp is:
- for a while, it looks like nothing is happening - then you will
notice small bubbles beginning to form - the volume will start to
increase
- this will go on for some time, with more and more bubbling and
increasing in volume
- eventually, the starter will be fully activated. At this point, it
should be full of bubbles which are well-integrated throughout the
starter (not just on top) and it may have a layer of foam or froth on
the very top. If you starter is a very thin consistency, you may
instead have a couple of inches of foam on the top and not so much
bubbling within the starter. If your starter is thick enough, it will
have at least doubled in volume. This is called the starter's "Peak".
- it will stay at this level for a some amount of time. - eventually
the starter will sort of fall back into itself, the volume will drop
and the bubbling will decrease. - at some point later, the starter
will have evened out, no bubbling will be present, and the starter
will be a calm, thin batter sitting in the bottom of your container.
- eventually, it will begin to separate and form hooch.

It's my understanding that peak yeast activity occurs while the
starter is plateauing or just starting to fall back into itself, and
that this is the optimum time to use the starter.

How long a cycle takes depends on several things: - the starter
itself, and the mix of organisms in the starter - the consistency of
the starter (thick ones take longer than thin ones) - the temperature
at which the starter is sitting (as well as the temp the starter was
when you began and the temp of the water & flour used) - possibly
your altitude (slower at high altitudes) But as a general rule, a
cycle takes 8 - 12 hours but some starters, like SDI's Russian
Starter, are much faster than that.

So, my suggestion is that you put your starter through some feeding
cycles and pay attention to what it does. Not that you need to watch
it every minute, but check on it every hour or so and mark it's
level, or keep notes of the time and what the starter looks like.
Then you can play around with activating it at different temperatures
or different consistencies and see how that change affects it.

If you do this, you'll really get to know your starter. You'll know
what it looks like when it's fully activated (at it's peak), or where
it is in its cycle, and how long everything takes. This will give you
a much better handle on baking with the starter.

One thing you'll notice as you read some of the sourdough literature
is that there are discrepencies and variances with just about every
aspect of starter maintenance and baking procedures. Keep in mind
that there is no one, true way when it comes to sourdough. The stuff
is so flexible, adaptable and variable, that all kinds of procedures
and methods work with it. The trick is to experiment and find out
what works for you, with your starter, in your environment. It takes
a bit of experimentation to find that for yourself, though. Keep
talkin' and keep readin', you'll come across lots of people's ideas
that you can try out.

-Beth

------------------------------

45. What about Dan Wing's new book "The Bread Builders"?

I had a very interesting book pop through the mail slot recently,
'The Bread Builders - Hearth Loaves and Masonry Ovens' by Dan Wing
and Alan Scott.

When Dan wrote me for my address so he could send me a review copy he
noted in his enthusiasm for his newly minted book "It's a really good
book." After receiving it yesterday I noted in my enthusiasm for his
newly minted book, "It's a really good book" and it is :-).

You get for your $35 the best book I have read on "natural leavens"
or sourdough. It has no recipes but sets out to teach you the basics
underlying baking bread with no commercial yeast... and succeeds very
well. The book is 254 pages, paperback, indexed, and well illustrated
with color and b&w photographs, graphs, line drawings and a glossary.

Starting out with interesting introductions by Alan Scott and Dan
Wing, the book's chapters wind their way through Naturally Fermented
Hearth Bread, Bread Grains and Flours, Leavens and Doughs, Dough
Development and Baking, Ovens and Bread.

Interspersed in the chapters are 'visits' where a separate article
describes a visit to an interesting bakery or baking related location
ranging from Vermont to California. The book's clear and easily
readable style is assisted with sidebars and notes clarifying various
points. I do like the notes in the margins as this book does rather
than at the bottom of the page.

But wait, that is only half the book. You get thrown in for free
another book, on how to design, build and operate a masonry oven. Its
chapters range through Masonry Ovens of Europe and America, Preparing
to Build a Masonry Oven, Masonry Materials, Tools and Methods, Oven
Construction, Oven Management and A Day in the Life at the Bay
Village Bakery. If you are not up to rushing out to build a masonry
oven right away, 3 methods are given to approach the results in a
masonry oven, cloche, baking stone, and you'll have to read the book
to see what I am going to be doing with a metal pot, cookie sheet and
pie plate.

All in all I believe this book is a good read for aficionados of
sourdough, and they would find it a good reference work for inclusion
in their library. As a book for someone switching from baking yeast
bread to "natural leaven" bread they would probably regard ownership
of this book as priceless gift. For someone starting out in bread
baking it would allow them to get a really good understanding without
all the "old wive's tales" that unfortunately dog some sourdough
advice. I know it will find a treasured place in my library and be
well thumbed through as it assists me in achieving the perfect loaf.

Thanks Dan.

-- Darrell

p.s. The publishers are Chelsea Green Publishing, 1 800 639 4099,
http://www.chelseagreen.com, ISBN number is 1-890132-05-5, $35 also
at Amazon ~$28 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890132055/

------------------------------

46. What's all this about natural leaven and L. sanfranciscensis?

Dan wrote: "I chose to write "natural leaven" because it is less
awkward than 'mixed ferment cultured from the environment and
sustained with repeated inoculation.'" -- Dan

Michael replied: "Sustained with repeated inoculation" is better than
anything I was writing to say the same thing. "Cultured from the
environment" is certainly true - L. sanfranciscensis and the yeasts
must come from somewhere - but somewhat misleading, as these
organisms most probably do not originate from the grain, or the flour
(Marco Gobbetti, whom I mentioned earlier has been looking for L.
sanfranciscensis on all kinds of Italian wheat flours, and he has not
found any.

In every Italian dough "sustained with repeated inoculation" you'll
find L. sanfranciscensis to be the dominating species, though. No
other scientist has been able to isolate L. sanfranciscensis from any
other source than sourdough, but all sourdough "sustained etc."
contain this organism as the dominating flora.

A possible source may be the humans: there are all kinds of
lactobacilli thriving in the mouth, the intestines, etc. Hammes met a
South African Microbiologist who claimed to have isolated L.
sanfranciscensis from the teeth of pre-school children. The data is
not published, so I don't know what science is behind this claim.
But, whereever L. sanfranciscensis comes from, it most probably does
not come from the flour.

...

I think it does not matter when the first batch of a new sourdough
stinks - the good bacilli will come out eventually, and they may come
faster if fermentation is done around 25 - 30°C (as mentionned
earlier, the temperature optimum of L. sanfranciscensis is 32 -
33°C). There has been nice work done in Rudi Vogels lab on the
microflora of a freshly started sourdough: first, there are
Enterobacteria (Escherichia coli, Salmonella, Enterobacter), highly
undesirable organism that stink terribly, then there are
homofermentative lactobacilli (good, but no gas production), then
acid-tolerant, heterofermentative
lactobacilli. I think, this took about 48 hours at 30°C. The stink at
the beginning does not matter as the organisms will be diluted out or
die eventually.

No L. sanfranciscensis, though, these will occur only after repeated
refreshments. Peter Stolz of the Böcker company told me that it takes
about two weeks of repeated inoculations to get a good
"sanfranciscensis" sourdough. I don't know whether or not this
process was sped up in his case as, due to his workplace, his skin is
all covered with L. sanfranciscensis.

-- Michael

--------------------------

47. How does one measure the ph of sourdough, and what is the effect
of different ph's?

For sponges and doughs:

*Weigh 15 g of sponge or dough and place it in a polyethylene container.

*Add 100 ml of distilled water to this sample.

*Seal the container and shake until the sponge or dough sample has
completely dispersed.

*Place electrode(s) in the mixture and read the pH value.

*After the pH value has been obtained and recorded, slowly add 0.1N
NaOH from the buret and stir constantly until a constant pH of 6.6
is obtained. Read the buret and record the number of ml of NaOH used
(that is the TTA or Total Titritable Acidity). Take care not to add
the NaOH too rapidly to avoid going beyond pH 6.6.

For bread:

*Weigh 15g of bread, excluding the crust, into a clean dry container.

*Add 100 ml of distilled water, seal the container and shake until
bread disperses into a semi-liquid mixture.

*Determine and record pH and TTA as described for brew.

Some useful information for all you "sourheads" out there:

Overmatured sours, i.e., replenished sours matured over 8 hours at
77F, may build up excessive acidity and the lactic acid bacteria will
start to inhibit the propagation of yeast cells, i.e., slowing the
leavening activity in the sourdough.

A good and fully matured functional sour has a pH of 3.9-4.1 and a
total titratable acidity (TTA) of 13-15 ml.  Sours that develop
acidity equal to a TTA of 18-22 ml or higher with a pH of 3.8 or
lower will gradually lose their ability to produce enough carbon
dioxide to leaven bread loaves. Having a high acid content also makes
doughs softer and makes their cell structure break down during
rounding and moulding.  This tends to result in an irregular cell
structure with thicker cell walls in the bread crumb and a tougher
bite.  This effect is intensified in doughs with a relatively high
water absorption (over 62% of flour weight).  However (for all you
artisans out there), bread of this type is acceptable as "signature"
bread served in restaurants or for personal use or for artisan type
bakeries.

Other useful information concerning industry "normal" pH and TTA in
breads and their process:



Sourdough starter      3.9-4.1 pH      14-16 TTA

Mixed dough            4.6-4.8 pH       5-7 TTA

Proofed dough          4.2-4.4 pH       9-13 TTA

Crumb                  4.3-4.5 pH       6-7 TTA



*TTA values are expressed as ml of 0.1 N NaOH per 20g sample
(sourdough starter containing 47.6% flour) titrated to pH 6.6

**This is according to the American Institute of Baking, and not the
FDA, so I imagine that would explain some differences in "normal" pH
readings.

-- Dave

-----------------------

48. Should I use more than one rise for my bread?

Some will tell you "one rise is best".  Others feel that you can get
a finer crumb with multiple risings.  Some feel that you can't get
good rise on second, or third, risings.  Others feel one rise is not
enough, that good bread requires more than one rising.

Some people report good rises on second and third risings, others say
the second stays as flat as a pancake.

Looking at the posts, I think there are a number of factors at work.
Here are some of them:

1.  The starter is an obvious difference, as some are more lively than others.

2. The baker's technique.  A bit of gentle kneading is required
between rises or the culture (or even baker's yeast) can't get to the
nutrients in the dough.

3.  Altitude.  If someone is at a higher altitude, it's easier to get
second, third, fourth, or more risings than at lower altitudes.
Let's think in terms of higher altitudes being above a mile or so
above sea level.

4.  Flour - some flours have more nutrients than others, so some will
keep feeding the culture longer, and let the bread rise better.  Some
have more, or less, gluten which also impacts rising.  Some cultures
will degrade gluten if they are allowed to work too long, which can
tie into number 1, above.

5.  The recipe.  If the recipe provides other nutrients for the
culture, or has ingredients that interfere with the culture's
working, that can be an issue also.

6.  Expectations.  What is "a well risen loaf"?  Some people look for
big holes in their bread, others for small.  Some want a light fluffy
loaf, others want a dense loaf.  All call their loaves "well risen".

On the pan front, a pan helps a loaf hold it's shape.  To be a bit
indelicate, think of a woman past her youth with, and without, a bra.
A pan helps dough hold it's shape on five sides.  A free form loaf
has support only on the bottom.... or no support at all.  So the free
form loaf has to have good structural integrity to maintain it's
shape.  With higher hydration doughs, this becomes more of a
challenge to the baker.

-- Mike

In my opinion, people new to sourdough bread baking should remain
with one rise until they are satisfied with their bread density.
People converting their bread baking from baker's yeast should also
use one rise initially, as they will not be familiar with the
enzymatic degradation of the dough one gets with sourdough, nor be
familiar with the much slower rise times of sourdough bread.

-- Darrell

-----------------------

49. What is Salt Rising Bread?

Salt rising bread (SRB) is leavened by the bacterium Clostridium
perfringens rather than a yeast as used in sourdough.

I have described two reliable recipes in an article presented in
Petits Propos Culinaires No.70 (PPC is published in England and
focuses on history of cuisines and foodstuffs).

I have improved one recipe to speed the process to deliver two loaves
of SRB by mid-day after setting a pre-starter the evening before.  If
you adhere to the following, you can do the same.

In the early evening, set the pre-starter -
    Two cups of scalded milk, immediately after removing from heat,
    Stir in two cups of corn meal, and
    Three tablespoons of wheat gluten.

Cover the container loosely with plastic wrap or similar and place it
in a space that can maintain a temperature between 95 and 105 degrees
Fahrenheit.  The temperature is important - ten degrees less and
action slows dramatically.

First thing in the morning, make up the starter -
To the pre-starter, stir in,
    One cup hot tap water (~125F),
    One-and-a-half cup flour,
    One-half teaspoon bicarbonate of soda.

Loosely cover the container and return it to the heat box.  In about
two hours the slurry will be covered with bubbles or foam and will
have increased volume by 10 or 15 percent.  When it reaches this
state;

Make up the dough, add to the starter -
    One tablespoon sugar,
    One teaspoon salt,
    Three tablespoons shortening (oil or solid), and
    Flour enough to make a stiff dough (heat the flour till warm to the touch).

Divide the dough in two, form loaves, and place in greased pans.  Oil
the surface, if you please.  Put the pans into the heat box for about
two hours when the dough will have risen to the pan edge.  Bake in
350F oven for an hour or until nicely browned.

Any kind of corn meal will be satisfactory (organic, inorganic,
white, yellow, stoneground, ripped to shreds by steel,
what-have-you).  Every grain I have tried has produced a satisfactory
starter.  Oak bark will inspire a starter in my experience.

The secret to a fast and reliable process is the heat and gluten.  Of
the two, the heat is probably most important.

-- Reinald

In subsequent correspondence Reinald comments:

I have made SRB for about 40 years with the early years as confused
as many people are today.  In 1981 I discovered that a fraction of
Campden tablet did a much better job of killing yeast than does salt.
A couple of years ago, after e-mail exchanges with Susan Ray Brown, I
repeated the 1981 experiments with different grains (oat meal, corn
grits, barley, etc.) and went on to try just about everything I could
find at the local natural foods store (wheat flakes, wheat bran, rye
flakes, oat bran, steel cut oats, etc.)  Practical SRB starters will
develop from all of them.

Venturing further afield, I tried slivers of bark from white oak
(Quercus alba) and black locust (Robinia pseudoacaca) as initiators
on wheat flour with Campden; again to obtain useful starters.  Next
was cheddar cheese and blue cheese and, finally, flour alone.  All
worked.

A professional food chemistry laboratory ran DNA analyses on the
Clostridium strains in flour, corn meal, and cheddar cheese mediated
starters.  The cheese Clostridium was perfringens Type A with an
exact match to their reference pattern; flour and corn had patterns
quite similar to the Type A, but not identical.

I also monitored pH of various starters as they developed.
Perfringens thrives in a basic solution even as it is producing acid
which eventually arrests activity.  Bicarbonate of soda buffers the
acid to facilitate perfringens action; it is not part of the
leavening process.

-- Reinald

-----------------------

Subject: 99. Authors

Dick     -Dick Adams -- dick.adams (at) bigfoot.com

David    -David Auerbach -- auerbach (at) unity.ncsu.edu

Mark     -Mark Avery -- http://www.sourdoughhome.com

Beth     -Beth -- housewolf (at) hotmail.com

Troy     -Troy Boutte -- tboutte (at) delphi.com

Michael  -Michael Ganzle -- michael.gaenzle (at) blm.tu-muenchen.de

Carl     -Carl Griffith -- (deceased)

Dave     -Dave J. -- thebakery (at) worldnet.att.net

George   -George Kavanagh -- GK05 (at) earthlink.net

Sam      -Sam Kinsey -- slkinsey (at) aol.com

Andreas  -Andreas Krueger -- andreas.krueger (at) neuss.netsurf.de

Matt     -Matt -- mel63 (at) capital.net

Reinald  -Reinald S. Nielsen -- n984652 (at) hypernet.com

Jeff     -Jeff Renner -- nerenner (at) umich.edu

Roland   -Roland Salandha -- rsaldanh (at) magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

Dan      -Dan Wing -- wagons (at) sover.net

Jonathon -Jonathan Youngman -- jonathan (at) west.net

Edited by Darrell Greenwood -- darrell.web (at) telus.net