Created: 9/6/1960

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proehu ni me pomoch. ecall.


sawthen be.

ha give any reason* for That ha vaa dolngl HI* motivation.

la ahat Henry couldn't understand aad thlahat bothered ne at the

time. Ve asked him vhy and hi* answer van probably that he vaa tired of the regime,e,

Za fact, we aeked/hlm areommunist. Just right out point blank, are you



a CommunietT And be say* byl.

Bi Byl.

yl. 1MART992

B: It meana am waa. man what waa the Impressionhecasiunle la spirit orember of the CP7

Ol My impression vaa that hecmaunlst Inon't think h*arty member. But this waa the Impressionot. But Henry Just turned to him and aaid point blank aroommunist' And be says byl. And then he

Bi Ud you respond?

C: aid If we could be of assistance ve don't care,aid that ve didn't want to create trouble. Because at some time in the future we night want to eome back to tbe Soviet Unionmwmt, he said something about that he. nmxk Ve nmtanht didn't have to know the knowledge ourselves or some such thing. But then he told us aboutncidentouldn't understand why unless he was trying to convince us about the lsniortanee of tba information he had to give us ntxtkn and he made reference to these two letters. And then be started describingncident and the RB-Uy incident both. ive us all the detail*: Could you repeat this:

C: Tes. Be aaid he describedncident Ijftrwt. Bs said aaand there vaairect hit. Be said not oneocketsand in th* process,veil they destroyed one of their own plane* thatfollowing him. And lt waa eome Lt. Be didn't give the name. Idid be know the nam* of tbe lieutenant and be said no. illed In tbat What kindlane was it?

GV X*ighter plan*. Zfighter. Itighter


but be didn't give aw tbe type. on't know. B: Are you cure be didn'tlg?

ror the feet

C: Ho he didn'tdidn't give the type. Except/that heltighter plane


B: But he said fourteen?

C: fourteen. sked hla thinsiniirnwiiHani two or three times about it.

I said are you sure. Be said yes.

Bi All right. sk you thia now.

Ci Be aaid "ehytimataed mket".

Bi Be didn't aay what kind ef "raket".

Ci ad he aaid.

Bi Ground to air er air te air?

Oi sked hinir tesked bin "Fren ths plane?". Be said

Bo, the plane wasn't equipped with roeketa. Or,hile- did be nay -

tliera he said the plane wasn't equipped with roeketa. That he had

ski chins guns but tbeere any of then fren the plane. Re said no,

they vere all froa the ground, certainly

Bt psoiflo Hot nany or several or few but exactly u. Ci ouldn't understand either. He kept repeating theid be aay where he had the infomatlon fron?

Ol aid Do you have direct access to this and he said ao,riend. Bt Did he describe hisron the air force, military or anything? Ci Ho, he said haow did be put it? - tbat'a all he aaid "An officer friend". But he wouldn't tell m* what eerrioe be was In or what hla rank was.

Bi Be said there ware no direct hits?

Ci Ho direct hits, lassreikljaid that apparently either tba concussion

fron one of tbe roeketa name close and either tbe ocncuselcn oaased the engine te malfurction or else somet least it came olaee andhere

was no direct hit.

Bi Did he refer to engines or are you forcing impressions now? Ci Ho, let me thinkost of this was in English except tho On thee reverted to Russian. But when he came to thesked bin to repeat it in Russian and be verified this, he saidoeketa.

Bi Did ba dm the English work "rooiat*"?

Oi Tan, bat b* *ald lt both la English snd In Russian but r* theon't bflllrr* b*n* word of Englisha used alle epos* English fairly well. In fact, I'd says far as nllitary language, be knew core English than ve did Russian.

Bi 1st as read tbi* "On* rocket burst nearausing It to go out of oontrol and fall opinning to earth".

Ci Tea, that'a right. He aeld tbe pilot lost oonsolouaneas oo bo ecu tally knew

nothing about tho thing* what happened.

Bi The pilot lootight after the burstT

Oi ( be said it wont out of oontrol and they olaia tbe pilota tenant aa to vhat went on but he aaya be coildn't know ba cause bo lost ocpsolbaanoee.


Bi Rest statemant la "laent spinning to earth Powers ejected-. That sounds aa if he was conscious. Tooon't have such faith in the tranamlsaion of information fromo C. That's why I'a asking you these queotiona.

Ct ouldn't undoratand either. Bow oonld ho eject if he was uneonsolous. Bo said the ow did he sayhis nay have been tho oase where ho Bade tbe etatenant and we didn't understand it and bo bad to say it In English. Bi la thia correcthe firstoadrocket burst nearIt to go out ofhy? erynderstand it. Vas lt just out of control by being thrown off Justellow who la running very qulotcly -giveittle nudge and he'll fall to tho ground. Whereas no actual damage was received.

Ci Thia laouldn't understand. Was it shrapnel or concussion or what? But bo did oay that Fovea vase waa uneonsolous the wholeut thle had ne puzsled too. How could he eject? a there an automatic maohanisa that could klok the pilot outon'ti Be was uneonsolous when he hit tho grand ground?

Ct Re said that he was uneonsolous all thewholee couldn't have

known what went

B: Did he aay anything about tbe altitude ,teejt, Powers was flying?

Ct Too, ho said it was strictlyhat the plane could not get up to hla.

Bt But the rockets-reached at that altitude?

whistling on taps

Ct an't tell you.

Bt What else did he toll you tout?

C: He did sake the cos*atculE^Szt hit if lt mat '1

-Howeceive a


torn up. Be Hid if It would hnvoirecthan It would have disintegrated.

Bitatement here "Thererailingower altitude Ci Did be aay that?

Bt Did be aayrr what. Before lt waa aaid that theaa ahot down

Ci emember- that theaa connected with theon't remember

tbat tho aa connected with. Be mentioned tht theee at a


lower altitude to theat why

Bi Her* those his exact words "lower altitude".

Ci Tea. ye*. In the ease ofe said theas out of the rangs of Whloh seen* odd tohought theould go as high a* But be aede out like it oould net. It waa too high or lt and oouldn't us* hi* machine guns. He bad to use his rockets. And it th* rock*t* tbat brought hin down. Bi Theas brought down by rockets?

Ci Tea but he said it was not over the xeinland either. sked hin how far. Be said many monaster* fron the aid "It glided to shor* ore saidt was hit but it vas not destroyed. uess there were too or three survivor*,

Bi This is what he said

Cs sked hin if anyone lived fron ithe didn't know. Bi But he did aay thelided to land.

Ci on't know if ho said "glided". emember the reference is of being hit, tbe plane was lower, and tbat tbe aircraft was hitan't remember whether he aaid it glided all th* way^to land or not. Bt Bid he say theaa over internation waters?

C; Tea, meshdunarodnayaelieve these were the words but he did use the wordhough. Tea, and be said there was no question it was not over Soviet territory.

B: Use there anything else that during this wholehe? ftxx Well, he vas on the train froa Kiev, be said. Did he say that waa bis hose? Did be give any olue? Why was he on the train? Waa heaoation? C; Be waaan't rnnember whether be was en vacation, fron fcosoov or fron Kiev. Seen* to ne he waa on vacation in Moscow. Bi This we'll have to establish.

C< an't, bsolutely cannot recall.

B: Well vail awhile be bad beee carrying theae letters since

C: be vaa. It aeens to ne he aaid beI'm Just kicking around


thoughts here. If he wsrbsaon leave In Moaoov than bow could hex est up a


date to be sat. The ntissiswnsn runs in sn> Bind that he wanted to be net on th

fifthadvised hla of.

B: net by vhomT

-Oiepresentative of hla. And he said It's not to take place on tbe xtxxh loth anna, not to take place on theb and on and on but bov could be do that If he didn't live In the area.

B: Old he say these exact words tbat he vould like to be act on!


Ci Tea, be said lt describee In/one sxa envelopeas to be aot aad at what tine. And he aaid th* sixteenth Is the date. But apparently he didn't pu Inside there that he vould be there. Be said that If everything is set up for the (sounds like) sixteenth.

B: And It's not the fifteenth, ho said tbe sixteenth?

C: Tes, he said th* sixteenth or the day after or the day after and hnxxxrtould almost swear that be said forever. B: Oh really.

e aaid that th* sixteenth, If it'a not the sixteenth, tbe savomtheenthsays and ao forth. ould almost swear bs said aa

B: Ha

Oi ould svear he *ald thatannot remember for sure. But ay impression

to this same place, keep comingaa that be vaa going to keep coming beck/unAll he aad* his contact.

B: Veil this would lead you to believe tbat ba lived la Moscow?

C: Tes. The leave must have been in Kiev but with his Ukrainian accent he most

have been there at some time or ot her. But it runs in ay mind tbat he must hav

been on leave In Kiev.

Did he give any indication as to who be vast Or what be vas It run* in ay. mind tbat he vas connected vith tbe military but whatnever quoted his name or likeould almost sveareardcolonel used once but beI remember. He aaid. aidyou.and all these things, what is your rank aad number. He theseall be answered at the mabaasy when they see what is Inside here. Hewon't have any trouble knowingm. He aaid they know an. ty time in the nitre vould he care to come to the Vest? He said haouple of

B: Did beeGsioaaas out tax or that he hoped to come

out. ish or fond desire or didnpression that he might go out


on a kossaandirovka or vith aoae/ Soviet labaeay?

Ci tto. Itvu permanent. FLm to the Weet. sed the vara pcoeshet. Fobexhat.


B: Defect In other vords./les. And he said maybeouple of rears. B: And be didn't give any Indication as to hovt

C: No. And, of course, the thought that came to mind vas hie family. Maybe

he vould veat--what vould he doutth bis family if he himself ease to the Weet

sked hla vhat about his family end it runs in ay Bind that he

van going to try to get then out vith hla but the question dropped. Be said

veil this le notImportant thing Is to get this Information to

anthoritieaT skedive you our adore as. If you ever get outside and you need help

the Iron Curtain/you can vrite aa or call or da anything. Call long distance collect or whatever could ve help. Be said no. Be vas afraid to vrite, to record lt, because if it vas ever found that vould be it. But he said you von't have any trouble knowingn because vhen you deliver this, everybody vlll know who

B: Ba gave you two envelopea? Ci two envelopea. B: They were sealed.

Ci Tea. Be said oneetter from himself, instructions and that sort of thing, and tbe otherery Important document. Bi What color vas the envelope?

C: It vas sort of an off color greenreen turquoise, or light bine. Bi Anything written on the envelope?

C: Bothlng. Just sealed blank envelopes end there vaa no eeel or writing?. Ba van very very careful and Iput the letters ln ay pocketever took tbea out or looked at themot to tbe Enbeasy. Be asked that ve not open them. B: And you didn't?

Ct And ve didn't. We dlscuseed at length and it vaa right near the aad end of

the rendezvous that he finally did give ns tbe envelopes. As far as the poaaibility

of being photographed, if ve vera, lt vould have been from one of the buildings


he street. We veined along the path right next to tbe snbsta* and if he

it vould have been from aeroaa the street where thei* lines interran through--


B: Tou accepted tbe envelopee at vhat point now? You said you walked here end ct then you retraced. Did you retrace the whole time: Ci lo, just once.

B; And thenba path take

Ct Javaaahink. Wo wont downhink right along in thera. In other vorda, oo ventays end then heck aad then tbe path cones out there. B: Tou received It then and then yonouple blocks. Ci Tea.

B: Coming back to hla motlvlatlon you pressed, an lt athere any personal reasons that you could detect? Hov did you phrase thatfed up?

C: Tes. let's see hov did he --

Bi How this is* now this is the bridge nnrnijnsm you vere talking

about here.

C: al Portionhere on that corner thera. The

The bridge vas here? Tes.

nwigh"fc vas right In bare. That doesn't seen tightheretreet

snot here, theretreet car that runs along here.

B: Tou don't remember tbe names of tbe street or the street you vent up?

C: Bo.

B-. But you vould say it vas sane hov nany blocks from tbe bridge?

C: Well ve didn't go anymorethis streetmore than two blocks.

B: Maybe one?

C: It vould have had to been an awful long block. hink that lt vas about two blocks unless it vas an avful long one. elieve lt vaa two. B: Do you knov vhere the British Embassy is? C: Ho, Sir, I've never been there. Bi In Moscow?

C: Bo. as everon't remember It.

B: Well ocning back to this motivationto recall what be said.

C: I'm trying to remember If it vaa some single incident or process of years or

heersonal grudge or someone In hla family suffered or what. m at

a loston't thinkad Indicated anything to the

rmbesByirj eitherecall.

B: Bow this Soviet citizen claims to be an infantry officer. Did you aay that. Infantry. Who vasommunist but la no longer one. We'll clarify that. C: Tes. on't recall that at all. Inon't even recall the word for Infantry. What la tbe vord for infantry?

B: on't recall either. Ton seeon't trust the .iHasinas Oould be have said Bed Army? 0: on't recall.

b: Well wr'rc ceding dose to the endtape, Are you hungry. stopping for

Well did youeeling ofls

I gather that you did.

C: id, In the ease ofaa store confident.

B: You had more tine vith Bin?

C: Yes, more time. Thealfhour meeting vas more difficult. ulled

over in my mind andook thoseaid veil thle le it.

Is It vorth tbe risk? aid veil if the information is there then it is worth

the risk. ook the envelopes. In other words if lt hadropeganda


buildup well they justouple out snd Itefinite calculated risk.eolded that if tbe information vas there (BHD OF CAPE).

Original document.

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