MEETING NO 16, LONDON, 05 MAY 1961WITH PENKOVSKY

Created: 5/5/1961

OCR scan of the original document, errors are possible

,1

(lA Subject arrived5 hours1 attrMount Royal Hotel, London.

Did you hove trouble getting Tree from WYNNE and tho delegation? We Juat partedhe was here Just now with his wife; we drank whiskey, said goodbye and he leftwhat do we need him for? Ol But this evening w'th the Si Tha delegation was here Just nowverything Is finished. J: Okay, et to work.

Gt Well now, tell us In detail what happened w'th KERRimN. St et completely set sf fed. Ot Why? Il Everything wentour've. Whan one get* nixed np with an old nanBoth youxplained exactly vhen ha should cone, but he was seven nlnutes late. ent out to- you were going catpeke to you at the entrance. (Subject hadn the hotel staircase as the latter were leav;ng.) You left and he arr'ved soon after that ab. I led him In and SHAPOVALOV and GENERALOV Were wait ng for hln. The PETIDENT hado ntroducc both iHAPOVALOV and GENERALOV. ept them 'n the hall, opposite the restaurant. The old man arr'ved seven minutes late and apologized. ad explained to him and so had you that twenty minutes wac'tfie l'm:t, but It vac impossible to break uy- the conversation for sn hour. ot up,eeurry, ordered coffee and drank It and st.'ll he stayed. It wasn't only heIt was OENERALOV too. GENERALOV got It from theENT for this. He put questions to him. yes lit up, but MERP1MAN found flCV.lt tc understand that there would br t'me for conversation 'i the future, that It waa not necsssary Oust thenalthough he hed been warned. On thead told hla, "Do ycr best. Arrange all conversat on as .'j'ckly as possible and fr'ah" (ln English). xplainedll this and he said wz, yes, yesbut he did not understand me. Youoo. Ht Yes.

h. it Well,gan to talk about cementwent welle should be thankful. ooked at GENETALOVhis eyes lit uplt seen: that he has no acquaintance?he Is very passiveIf only his English were better. Then MERRI HAN stood at tha entrance, showed off h's silver th'garette, showed us how, he tald, nothing would tarn'sh Itcorrosion or anythinga whole hruri As toonhould hove ^one andaxi. GENERALOVecond mistakeeported this to th*ENT. Ha offered to lake METOIMAN In his operetlonal csrthat s, hecellt-ence number. te dietshey don't know how to work. G: But

for release

3 %m

this wasinus for you? Still tell you everythingwhylssatisfled? The conversation dragged on, they were

pushing MERRIMANcoffee and moredon't ycu gc

away? The hour passednew that ANDREWS was du< to arrive. This wasas wc/r'ed, butn't know this. ignaled toanted to take him off to the toilet. ouldri't you Just have spoken to him In Russian? HERRIKAN doesn't understand Russian. S: He would have flared up,anted to study HERR1HAN further". hought to myself, "there is "me for

y

thisat some lunch, youyou were In America, they taught

surely ycu can finish this

J Everything at first was excellent. Then someone sat .down behind me. fait that he waa listening to ourondered ou had given someone the Job. Gt Not on yourhia"Excuse me, what time t?" He shewed mc the timethe man was Just an Inquisitive passer-by. But this was nonsense too We came out to the street, went to the ops rational cor and getnd Just then ANDREWS came by. He saw us and turned around. Whato his situation? He ceme up and greeted us,. How are you, Mr. GENERALOV? elieveu have had an ,GENESW-CV said to me,idn't want to

MERPIKMI'. aid. Whose faulthat? Why did you drag outconversation like that why do you work soill Inform the RESIDENT" av- done. They exchanged visiting

-?Ihc ra d- Hc handed ever the mater el

Gooobyo How they took him on further; "To hell withhought. at with MERRIMAN and SHAPOVALOV with him In front. fcand then said goodbye and dropped MERRIMAN and they arranged t- meet on Friday.

6. S: What is my request? That MERRIMAN should noton Friday. Let thea call and inVte him. G: Def'nltelv

n Tel1should get worse

end he should stay away from work: thise;uest. If they do

nf shouW walJ two or threeo less. MERRIMAN did not say everything what he did say hcellhut hc saltediously. Everything should have been rut off until

the next tine. And that ether fool tooWell, wedbye

to one another. Andold WYNNE hc hod seen MEMUKANw:th othe" from the Embassy. H: That 1

. r-^" G: ve y'uthe" then? Si Of rourae Wj-fcft KEFTRIMftN and went to the -mbassy to report -DQfr" At th- beg'nnin. GENERALOV ran -ff te- theENTAiOVAlCV

t^t'1eportno ond on the project, excellently writtenab'ut the vorh of the delegation vith ree et leaderabout all the new 'nformatlon to answer ,ucst ons for our national technical problems. But this la not the point- GENERALOV who ran to the RESIDENT told Mm aboutid, "You knew, this Is en Interesting old nan. ecided to ask hlic acne thinga". He vas already preparing hin. Hene stranger near (Subject's true name) was a'tting: behind ua, He also ncntlcncd thnt ANDREW; had net us on the way but didn't pay nuch attcnt on to thla. 'Well, so vhat? 1 use hin unw'ttIngly. We will build up an acquaintance wth hin and receive Infornatonget to knov people through hin." ,Hy requesthat th* old nan should do everything that you sey, without taking the Initiative. Inltfat'vis part now would be wrong. Hi It la difficult to work w'th the old man. Lt should not ring upGENERALOV Invited hin to lunch and MERRIMAN returned the nvltatlon. He should let thea pay frst the Embassy w'll Invite MEBF1MMI pleased thenhe conducted himself well, he waa interesting, he told stories. GENERALOV mentioned one of h's. MERR1MAN ssld,now hire very veil". Ev< rytl Ing vaa

friendly and In balance. MERRlf'AN took then 'n.

i lll write up ny rerort solidly. If only there had beenVsTKjn: of thisdedncsa. stranger appeared during the second half 'f the conversation. If only wc had not net ANDREWS. Thla means thatot fulf!ll car plan ent rely.and properly, If wo exam ne every detail. Three thing: 'hould not hav*-happened. There should have been nc second nanfor all the tiae at least. He cv-uld have come at the end. More than half the conversation could have takenthout h. there should have been no meet n* wth ANDREWS and lh*i should have b> r. no suchcednets.

G: You reported all this yourself? Si Yes. l?hi/ the conversation withaid,Z1DENT: he may have something to aay to ne about hisdecisions*1. The PEZ1DENT was asked and he said very well, let hin come. nt tnto the basement r. Housend reported t- Mn. He sa-d, "Everything Is nonael and -o- d. We vlll use htn unv tt nbly and1 not give hin agent tasks.' aid, "Well, 1'vi told yu He said he wuldersonal letter w'th rac, wishedappy Journey snd said thatlll sec the Ambassador. e shook hands: therehort conversation and that was all. G: You still don't J'ncv his surname? &| when,al<? He didn't g1 vae. As soonet back, within fiveill Know hla furnatne by another channel and ill be nore realistic t do It thi* way. But hisand

j-.atronyw'cLev orae to.

10. H: How, before ve get on with this can wc Just as* hew he explainedov he had br'cfed KERRIMAN before these menHEPAVLOV and GENERALOV) arrived? Gt (tranrlates). St Just as we agreed the day before yesterday. elephoned and said that KERRXMAN had Inv'ted ne home: he had prepared soraeth ng and vented to say goodbye to thr delegation. The whole delegation ves there at f'rst: he took leave of thea end loft. Gt Excellent. Thateautiful legend (he explains In English). Thewa* there for tvo minutesthanked MERRIMANand left. Everything was normal. H: e get how he gave the> brief to HERRIMAN ebout the cenent. Onelephone only? Gx (translates). St eft Moscow, specialist* asked ne to clarify certain quest"ons on cenent machinery. Ht We know that. S: etAN at Oxford after ve had visited "EdgarGeorge explains in English). St ave remembered a "Wh--r. HERRI KAN was In Moscow he promised the specialists there that he would send them something and that he would keep In touch with then so everything would go as planned.

about WYNNEheadconversat on today

ates at his place. G: Have yeu spent the day buying your things? I: ong tmc ct the Embassyccounts andt to the shops. G: Then yeu have done everything? S; Not everything- illu to help me ;r. some things. I've done everything fcr-myself end I've got the presentseverything has gone well. mti.tcome. He said, "Well, let'sast drink." Then he said,ould like to invite you to supper.'1 aid that It wet not necessaryad to meet the delegation. old, "Well, then my wifeill cone and say goodbye te the delegation. Wcr:nk or twc. ang from WYNNE's, telling the delegation we were com.'n^ In ton minute*veryone arr'ved. Mrs. WYNNE came: ve went to the bar andi ink,inutes and thenent off. nt to my room, collected some photographs and catalogues nf where vc bad been: the others went to doack ng,ame to you. 0: How about the receipts? Cs Il yu.oment. onversation with WYNNE. He told me that he had spoken vith you end had received Instruct ona. G: You said this?

No, he told me this since ha has rpoken toay. gerd-fns,hat Inm not working for re* neythat

It Is not necessary to give mesec, vhen t : .

necessary to speaknderstand WYNNE VTy well, unl ke Well he'll dohat they ask ote tc Conly need money." d itad one. On

-il-

receipt* receipts receipts.

the Instructions; he has the times we were in, and wc hotel tomorrow. Qt Excellent.

had will get the

fire (at

wa are

things

Q2/ Si equest. In the morningatou should tell someone that when all our the airport) nothing should be opened. There should be nc formalltlea over excess weight. They should toko no money end there should be no talk about this matter there.ays that WYNNE will arrange for the payment of any excess baggage. oints out that the baggage must be weighed and that representedves of AEPOFLOT work on this at London Airport.) St Thate fine. I'll explain that to my people.

all s

lt is

what

know tlonally.on to dott about you can;set your taken steps. Si

0: Then about WYNNE. ou do not promise him aXI sorts of things. It la not necestery to make him promises which wfll be difficult to fulfilYou oee, this influences him. Si id this already in MoscowI. Gt now, but ,now it Is Just not necesnary to make him any promises. We will doecessaryIf you want something special done, let us and It will be done. h him are very badut from myo not wsh to ask promised at the outset. Yesterdsysld the g'st of the conversation with G: Now m'nd at rest. You know ycurscif that you have Well, so much for WYNNE.

we have finished aboutaven't we7"

should be absolutely owlet (Inactive). What is bad about

will was

rockets?

hc" Hc

resistant that? He

eaaBSBflaasar:that he doesnto not understand him. aid to him, "You promisedabout steelperhaps you will be com.'ng to Moscow again to giveou lectured us very Interestingly In that fold, and so on. Write us some *ort ef cpan art'cle and we will hove 't publishedwe often publish articles by foreign authors on technical suestlons." He said, "I

think obout It. nowone of our main specialists) 'ntcrosted ,Jnjieat-resislantrochets..7 Why did h* say rocfceTsY "fit Becauseocket man,"you see. Gr Because'mplc mortal. He does not assess th'ngs ss ycuo. Is not an Intelllgenca off'cer. St nderstant that heot-steel Is the businesspec'ellst. Why did he say

ars gcehey thought.

vcrsatl on hc

th* now

wasoolstraightnvites xxt to leave rat! onal car. And it doesn't matter that wc met ANDREWS does t, or that ANDREWS told WYNNE? G: No. S: Gooc. Just so that you -Know. asn't happy about Jt. If wc- minutes carl'cr.

ee

St

befcauTJKit Is very Important end interest'.ng leV-By Chief Marshal of Artlllerv^VpRXJNOV rocket forces. This Ts theoretical (there -

'-: Then something Are you gettingecond Hlrfloa^ H: We will give ft to WYNNE who will giveo him In Moscow. Gt WYNNE csn do th'* easilyit iainy thing; he can tnke 't with his and hand It over no problem, itanted to aah. o not want to keep two MInoxes atill think about It. Hi We could get the Mlnox in his DLB. ave vorked this out. You have given m* enough film0 frames. To take the0 pages) with two framesranes. ill already have used more than half. m worried about film. Additional film should also be providedlready hav* another book to copy. Gi The pages of the Regulations are small enough for one frame each. Hi' This is the nextas going to ask hla. ropose that he should receive more cassettes from WYNNE. How many does he think be will ba eble to take? Yon sa* th's Is quite laportant because as It la difficult to get thea fn otherwise bulky packages like thi*as opposed to suaessages. How nany docs h* think he will be able to take froa WYNNE so that be hasupply for two or threxplains.)

_ modern evaluation of no deserin'ttpn'of

iews on their masse^Tmploymeht. in aTTTitary operations"booklet/ It Is'Top" Secret, One can see 't only be pre-

My number one project le thevlce^*eulat:onsfmnortant and 'nterestmo end" therea "one book-

very Interesting, be lectures on

en work on it* It will, bslll have the basic manual and there v'll specl*rt^training (Intelligence).

J M: We are giving him twenty films through WYNNE. Now, has rTr**rp/ Idea in his ovn m'ndwhat Is his conception as to when he hjouLc want to pass over further material? Does he think that he will want to do it at the end of June or Julyhat Is, after' VYNNK? Does he want to do It every month or every two or three nonjths? How does he consider the situation? ranslates.)

Let us not va't for many months. ave thought aboutery good question. Here is my plan1e-r'nmch as possible before the orrfval of WYNNEsome ofave alreadyyeu will have enough workonth. ave thought about the following suggestionid not mention lt before. KING knove me, he nvted neas looking after WYNNE'S d'legat on. et h'nandhed got tc know him veil I wai st that fool's - KING -ryQr.iie sonc-thfng snd *nv*te about ten people from thessaaaaWsw arrangedA^DAKegrovhen he got

lat and we went to the flat Sons celebration should be arrangedthe birthday of the Cucer.'s son and with thisretext he could organize. ant to give you my opinion as an intelligence officer. ikedIf he would take fi 1ms end additional materialfferoould give it to himwith your permission and cn your orders.

Then another man at sassnVs H: Another

manman.

at yvmsssssffaVeVs. io net want loth

H: He don't want you tekept

;/H: can we juot .

cixit/nces must he attempt to say anything or pass anythingassss arranges an Invitation forhr Cohe must only actan makes himself known to him. St And what will ycu say to this man? Ot Hethe signal (Not*: ic-clasp had been given to Subject andone would be worn by anyone who wes to contact him.)will ycu tell this man? ill walk around, look atall the rooms go into the k'tchen, tc the toilet. Yourwatch me. ill'tuatlon 'nm olonewill giveackage of exposed f'lm. Ot He will be ourman and no one else w'llt Once he has them, Then It Is ycur business. Has safsv already been warnedshould keepecause he knowsBaaasaV Hi now. ave .'oneajP>

*Jaaaas> interfere? G: will keep vulet. Gt

Absolutely. 5: That's clear.

two dsys. After, this they ranft-Jilmewspaper anduestion from the Committee through that Interpreter*-secretary of his1 gave you his namea Russian who worke in ths 1st Directoratehalf these people should be chssed off. They are informers.) His name <* NATORGV. Without OVubt,vsasssVeady knowsm in England forey*.. o fool and hc knows that we will definitely have been active 'ri the tactical and strategic f'elda. He understandsour words or questions. He knows that I" am in England. Hef the wishesdmitted to him. Oi He did notour wishes-si nee he did nothingHeomplete fool! St He understood everything. He even asked meanted to live 'n tha Soviet Union or to^defectAM YEKHAT'J- Jt Oh really? Kt ew one1.' St old th* man everything aboutas making the requestsand hc und.-rstoodyth!nc, but you are righthe stplete fool.

'Ht Can we Just go back to sasssnder no

H: He only wants to hand over, then, at the meeting? Doesv-?rre rule out any question of theh the pram ond all that? G: Oh no, no. Hi hould like to get hack to this time factor. nterprets.) St There will be new material from mearge quantity, sometimes less. But you cannot invite me to ah Fngllsh function every month. ust be asked tc the Australian, Englishandecome deputy to the head of the sectionto the American (Embassies). an be Invited by the Australians, the English, ond the Canadiansonce by each In every three months, without repetition by anyonehat tine.

Gi It Is possible that yeu will be invited once In two montQoyon an average. Si No. on't want to keep material, for two months, Ht onth. That'santed to know, because If we are going to uss this ploy during the summer, using the lady in the park with theave to give her instruct'ons how often she has to be theres the wholeant to get at. nterprets.) St This it my suggestion! on the f'rst Sunday of each monthst different places, the f'rst place woufd beuggestedopposite the statue of REP1N. Can she go out walk'ng with the child in the evening? Gt .No, It would not be nor-mal. Hi "And she will only push the children out he pram in the Immediate rayon where she Uvea. She can't push it all over town withoutar. S: Doesn't she take the child out for air before It Soe6 to sleep? nterprets H'st The parkifferent matter. Gi She lives perhaps two or three blocks from the park; she can alt or walk in the park. 1 always beark. But In which park?the one not .far from her flat.

fe&j S: uestion. ave an urgent messagellRe the occasion when Marshal ROkCSSOVSKIY was sent to the Trans-Caucasus and all the roeketa wereed end.ready to fire at Turkeythisflke this should happen howeep silent? Through what channelnform you?, Ht Thishing or.ropose to give him Instructions through WYNNE. At the moment we have made arrangements so that we can tell hint that we haveessage's TAINIK, but we have net yet Q'vcn him any Instructions on the return method. m hoping to be able to layrillelephone call'ven timeiven dayeek, so that he can tell us to go and clear the dead drop, but onlyeek. r pose should be arranged. If he agrees, is that he should be able to deliver more bulky material such as Mlnox cassettes or anything elseonth but he should be able to Inform us of something short which he can wr:t* down and put lr. his small deadutill only arrangeNNE has gotten back. nterprets.) H: mave ell this arranged soan send in the nstruct:ons thrcugh WYNNE.

St Thaty good. But one must foresee thisor whet could happen? The Marshals end everyone go somewherethis Is tha very basis of our work. All else is good end Important, butituation might arise. nd VARENTSOV andat" ready. They were ready to: Well thor., the radio and UM KIM* will bt st-theeadiness and the films will be handed over to you by WYNNEessage from us. St Then this Is all agreed,ill bs'told, when you workut, how to contact you In an emefgency but onlyave something of real Importance to reportsuch as the removal of KHPUSHCHEV or the imminence of military action. H: Or only If he himself knows, for Instance, that he is going to Canada then he should use it for that sortpurpose because the sooner we know, the better we can arrange th'ngsas well as critical intelligence. I trenslatea.)

ould st'll like to come hack to these twentythe biggest problem, which we have notreally tackled

ow to re-supply him. You see, we can pass him messages through the small DLB but thereuch more difficult probleme-supply to him of Mlnox filmsould really prefer (although we don't expect him, Heaven knrvs, to use more thanonth) to; givearger supply when weafe opportunity through WYNNE than to have to run r'skarder t* get supplies to him. ould much sooner givehree-month supply If he can hide it rather than to do lt through other hsndi. ranslates.)

Then we should hide there In shirts origarette box or tooiethlng like that. Gt Onof the radio set, that is alsoavs indIfhave ft hidden. S: annot do that straight away. Is not mine. There are people there, the clandestinela poor. Now somethinghould like your advice on1 canachaomeone who has to goould even buy cne on credit

whyuy ne ng away? Ht That is not necessary. Gt ou get the chance ofacha, by.allhead. St ould do some digging, plant some flowers and make caches and notog could find themif they suspected me even. 0: Are you thinking cf rne neer town where you can go easily? it Cf course one can gcacha inntcr, andould have try cwr. room. Gt u would gc to work from there daily? if rhaps sometimes, but net every day. But In ^summer one can live there theek every daywc are ellcwed tc do this he summer. G: Sut only during vacation time? You would have to go intc town by train when ycu are work'ng? Wouldn't It be for out? St It could ne as much af

Access,'

Col nel-Oeneral tirTEMENKO was appointed to deputy commander of en OKRUG. Gt Up to the present moment? S: Yea. now thia. Gt And Chief Marahel of the Air Force, .GCLOVANOV7 Haa he retired? St He la not working now: he has re^fredl G:ong time? St ave net heard if himong time. Gt NKOVvhatUs he do!ng7 St I'll tell you about him. Howhem are. in Moscow. Gt MALENKOV too? St as told that he had been seen there recently. KAGANOVICH lives not far from VARENTSOV, on th* Frunre embankmentoften walks along the embankment with hi* wtf* and con be met there. MOLOTOV Is very Ml at the moment. Qt He Is In Austria? St NowHe waa In Mongolia, in Ulan Bator. Gt Then they sent him to Vienna. St Yes. Now he la 'n Moscow. He Isnd 's under treatment. MALENKOV Is In Moscow. ^HEl'lLOV oTten walks along Gorkly Street and wasnot long ago. "Ha* looka flourlahlng and la well dressed, they aay. aw him alao. Where theyo not know. Gt How about KlRlCHENWD? St Ha la retired. In Kiev. Gt And ZHUKOV? Si He lives in Moscow on Graccvskaya Street beside the VoYENTOHG and opposite the Kremlin hospital. Marshal SOKOLOVSKIY Uvea there too. Hisarge house with hugen it.

St ives most of the timeacha cut along "Pie Huoievskiy "Shoasc. By order of the Council of Ministers he wasensionnew) rubles. Ot ll? Ht lsgrace. According to thearshalight to etire. He is lilted as continuing to work activelylike BUDtTJWY. Kho does nothing, 'but who ha* en office In the grey building onAntlplevakly Alleya hcuaearge tower. He has his office therea Colcnel la his Aide. Somet'mee he cornea toave seen him. He entere, works on Command Training. He has a c th* Krealln but he docs nothing. Heull salaryarshalalnce the last reform he0 newonth. Gt Is he higher than ZHUKOV? St Yes. VAJtENTSOV0 old rubles0 new rubles). He received more but.they have cut him down. The Council of Ministers decided to ret1re 7HUXOV. aw theadlnox you could havehotograprTorTl was signed by KHRUSHCHEV, and witnessed by the MinistersGORKIN was Secretary of that t'me. It read, "The Mln'aters of the USSR agree to the request efarshel of th* Soviet Union, that he should be allowed to retire". pecial resolution canarshal oreneralissimoand thispecial resolution. Then later there were similar resolutions on KCNEV, on tOKOLOVSKIY endCSHENJC end like 2HUKCV, their pensions were setubles. But ZHUKOV had money, fron savings. inister0 rubles.

(hO The head cf the General Staff receivesubles. Th-cos^orfiferranch et service arshal ofvlet' Union

'fib

A

<0

v.:

0 rubles. VARENTSOV gets less now. KHRUSHCHEV cannot create Intellectuals so on. But Marshalearshal of Tanks uch Commanders, Chiefhief Marshal ln charge of like VARENTSOV In aviation or

a month. When my father-in-law diedthis is how such detailhla wife0 (old)

like BIRYUZOV of the PVO received upow It le leesveryone ssId, "They have grown very fat. We and capitalists like this He saved his money and as Minister allowance. So he had his savings.0 rubles, shals and Marshals of the USSR, or arms of service, ordinary marshals tanksnow this in

rubles. AtMaJor General's widowolonel-General'sidow still more. Now If anyone Important dies, the widow0otew rubles! That laensioningle payment to cover funeral expenses. My mother-in-law0 (old)onth for herself and for her eon VALYA, the brother of my wife. Now he haa come of age and gets nothing. The sonead general and she getsubles. She lives on her savings. She0 (new) rubles left. This is how they' save billions for rockets. Any complaints and the little bit*vTIT"he taken away. But all areonk -aayatrusted fr'endKHRUSHCHEV should drop deed,the SVOLOOt, and that FURTSEVA ahould be drowndd.iand we will kill that Minister ZVERYEV who has been recentlyeputy.

r

Gt Do youeneral of Artillery, MUSATOVT S: now many Artillery Generelso not remember"him. G: Or Colonel SHUBNIKOVt SHVEINIKOV7 He haa Just become Major General and Is" In'T'Pefsonnei. Gi No. SHUBNIKOV. S: There le no oHUBNlKOVthereHUBIN. ajor General, Is In theery, is In command of the Cadre Directorate of the Ground Foro^s.

Il3. Os Do you know YASTREBOV and SERGEICHUK, who arewith the delivery of'lhe'arms outside the'llloci Si The' names are quite correct and exactthere are such colonels. They work In GAU.

Ull> G: Do you know any of the people who have designed new tanks, artillery pieces, and so forth, and who have received prises for their work? St Therereat inventor olonel of the Engineers. Heoode was from the conventional artillery. Now everyone has gone over Into rockets. now about ten of these peopleave forgotten their names.ithescription of whatre in the Academy, allery of oil paintings of"artillery"could simply look at them and copy-'them for you. Ih the Dzerzh Inskly Academy thereall

73. Si GRU radio operator or driver.

71. Si Why do you not want to receive fren ne tonorrowignal to show that all Is well? Gt We want tc Know that everything lright at work, as well as wfth you personally. St If everything Is notill turn up at the American or British Embassy! Gi Don't run to an Embassy. St Where to then? Oi It is better to go to snother country. Si Howet to another country? This Is sonsthlng else we must think about. annot go to an Embassy,iplomaticnow the car numbering system. Ji Let ne explain. While the Soviet authorities do not have the r'ght to enter an Embassy, they can stop any car, diplomatic or not. s Impossible to go fren an Embassy to an airport. nterprets.)

- S: ss studying at the Rocket Academy there*was Bn irapTrtsnt ^rderumber of discussions. One of curLi I dents. In the rocket fecultywasocket the hth faculty of which the Deputy wasia now in DDR. fiew*/ pljp^KO was theolonel; now heeneral. Ths sta-I "dentthe "UDARNlKT cinema;oreign car atop and was asked In broken Russian end English, "Where Is Americae said,now. ill show you . And he got in the car,rig, "Go that way.*1 The militia saw that the cariplomatic

E

" on It and then saws Soviet military uniform In the car. They opped the car as the first crossroadsed signal; stopped he car and pulled him cut. He was thrown out of the Academy nd was reprimanded along Party lines. This was done as anveryone else. All he wanted tc do waa to show then the way.foreigners On.-the car) were not detained. The foreignersere going to America House, perhaps as tourists. Gt Can enytne p? St Yea. This vas one thing that happened. It would be al* light If there waa obvious danger, but to live there endleaslyhot for? iplomatichculd do souitable f'lace, like by the Ukraine where one goes under the bridge where the gate is. now many places where one couldarbeing seen by the militia; unless, of course, they were openly followed. nowo the American or British Embassy st great speed. vever, that they vould nM. let me out or the country. They vculd nvoke an alarmeneral Staff Officer disappeared and all front era vould b* closed!

QJ>J St aa at the Academyan Air Force Colonel, who was an Instructor In special training, went cut of hla mind. He vent off cr-nk'ng and neither Ma family ncr anyone else could find him. He wentriendemote place anden.

22

The Minister was informed and* he .ordered the frontiers closed. Therepecial patrol, because they thought that he might try and get an aircraft and fly cut. This was done as a Then he re-appeared. He was reprimanded, dismissed, and putension. He was one of my Instructors. Well, one would Just have tc sit In the Embassy and live,

: Do ycu know the LOTKDVsfather and son? The fatherolonel and he was an Instructor.now him very well. He was an instructor, but not his son.

OO/ S: o not think that this danger exists. G: But it Is better to know beforehand what to do. St Ofourse. Ji The point 's thiswe consider him ours. There Is no question of thst. The fact remains thet the Soviets do not. The fact also remains that we do not have planes that fly In regularly. Evan if we did, only tie Embassy itself Isextraterr'tcrial. It Is not that wedant to help]nterprets) Gi My advice void be that if you suspectyou should trytogether with your familyto get to East Berlin under some pretext. St' They wculd not allow It.housand tourists are going, they check ten thousand and reject nine thousand. Hi The point Is surely this, to take it very realistically. If they know what he is doing, they would not give him the opportunity, tc get tc an airport. But If hc feels that there might be soaeSsuaplcion, which they cannot prove, then he stops Immediately In order to allay their suspicions. If thsy know he Is not going tohance tc run away anyhow. If they are suspicious, hc must slop work. nterprets.)

Si There can be nc question cf going to an Embassy under-nvfiy c! rcumstances. They wouldImmediately. But if. In the "case' ofouldiplomatic car at some favorable: Then where would you go7 To the Embassyand then what? There wouldscusslons and so forth and theydemand that you be handed backoviet citizen. It le better to deviselan for getting somewhere to safety by secretrontier, the Finnish frontier .whichever is nearest. Ji hink thisearingerypoint. This is why we have been stressing from the very beginning that security Is the most Important factor. We vould rather not see h'm or hear frome year than risk his neck 'n any way. nterprets.) St Howndangerhall photograph so carefully that no one w'll know. ill

A KOB officerj6). This Is en excellent

photo group.

officer who now works in/tie

Si trategic Intelligence officer.

Si Now works in ay group ofnderaval aan. He finishes' at the Acadean/ with aec9).

St trategic Intelligence GRU officer

lhO. St trategic^ Inteirjgence GRU officer

lUl. St RU offlceXwho now works Inthe

Si This Is

Si This nan/now works In the Operationalthe GRU

lkh. St Thle/nan la In theDlrectcrste.

St He waa thrown cut snd now he Is in Afghsnlstsn as assistant to Vasya FOXIDKA. He finished at the Academy wae. He Is In the Air Force. He was Iti India.

Ji Yurlyt s/ Yes

lll6ys: aval officer who finished eVvthe Ace deny with a*. We have gone through my whole class/Vf, seems tc me

hy

lh,7. Ji These are ell. Si Yea, thisine act if photographs. (This ended the operational phase cf the last rtedrt If this endt everything Tor me tonight ill run in to asy goodbye foriter. 1 or here atxactly.

Toatts In wine were drunk tc Subject; grop photographs were takenolaroid curaera with Subject and one 'f each participant Individually.

Ili9- Si elicvethat inst phase cf ourwehave worked Intensively end have achievedaluable results.

l$Q. Subject discussed Georgian wines such as NAPEREULl, SVILULY, etc. and said that KHRUSHCHEV had ordered these names to be discarded andrepleced by numbers since all the Georgian names were those of princea.

Thereery nice girl here at the hotel

ad no time to get acquainted with her. Here isicture (her name waa Valerie Williams, one of the hotel receptionists). aked her if shehotograph of herself. She said, "No." ave her fc5 and askedi her to have her picture taken. G* Juat for memories sake. She took the money and this morning aha gave me this photograph and wrote this nice letter. She explained that it isfor employees to go out with guests andahe sett her" best wishes. You seepent the last of my pounds!

A toast of best wishes for success and for Subjects well being and security was drunk. J1 Now bade aebjectsince he waa to leave earlythe morning. Subjectwhich gesture was repeated next morning for the other three participants). Subject carefully packed the various items he was. to take with him after they had been checked. Subject put all compromising materialoat pocket.

J wished Subject-all the best" on behalf of bisond himself and stated that these meetings would be only the beginningong and fruitful association.

Subject stated that^isari'soclationvwould continue until the end of his deys and/hoped that allwould meet again. He said that he was now completely at ease. He added the request that he should be protected andulfill all his missions.

Subject departed otours on the 6th of Hay

30

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