MEETING NO 13, (LONDON) 3 MAY 1961REGARDING PENKOVSKY

Created: 5/3/1961

OCR scan of the original document, errors are possible

arrived0 hourai atn th* Mount Royal Hotel In London.)

(1/ (Looking at the varloua (tens of medicine rbtalned for hrm) 1 not put anything in the sultcac* now. Youot of work ahead of you Hr. Harold. usth ih* PEZIDENT. Ateft Ood knovaaa able to accomplish 1thealk withad decidedad clarified everything. Hi That It fine. $1 Bat there I* ao much work to do. Gt How much time do you have at your disposal? St WcMl work for sn houralf or two hoars. I tent the delegation to the Exhibit. e vork'ng there and ateaabaj*ith then, rranged thia to cone here.

f inry r'cxmi ri ror me at th* c; Ih- a (ratty nasi* - wbbbbV HermmwmmmnmmtMmnm - Now, everybody kn *m t. pent two hours with her. ad to feet some sleep. At eightad my breakfast already. Gt Were yu at her place7 S* as at her home. Sheeparate apartment. was modest, but good. Sheice girl, somewhat experienced, but that was okey. ihe Is twenty-three years old. H:

Ot Did

she charge you much? Si WYNNE saidaid her thrcugh WYNNE. o net think he would overcharge me and pay her tar. founds. She was toldas Alex from Belgrade, Yugoslavia (laughter). Weable there, everything was fine, WYNNF said that she wantedounds. ave th* money to Mm. s 't to

her and asked har netshe didn't ask maenny more.

I Brant two hours w'th her. It was'ght.

Si as jpent the whole night on my reel. But then howrt been spent! asost luxurious cabaret, you extend my leave for about ten more days? (Laughter) er place two hours. I left WYNNE there. There was WYNNE's friend, Normane chap. Ha takes trips tb Canadaa very good friend of wYfN!e. He knows maoviet representative iind that is all. Flrat we vent to one club, then to tht cabaret. The show started at on* o'clock In the morning, very nice, elass'cal, the mus!c urkish style, as if to crdar.

(3/ St They rickedear old gtrl for mahe club

-- foo "

number 'aeverybody t. (Laughter)

I was up at seven, at* at e'ght sndevent to the eTCbassy. We rece'ved our money,o theecer-I'on. kc Hone with him forinutes. alk w'th

OR RELEASE

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SHAPOVALOV. old the RE2IDENT oil about ny trip. hoved him ny dallyhoved what you had g'ven nthe brochures). He had everything packaged up, celled th* code clerk ln ny presence and sent It "Ut. See what 't means not to have shown me all photographs I

($) Si ery fearful HOB nan, VOROMN, Yevgen y. He hear been here tvo years already. There vas no photograph and,ad not net h'm today, you vculd not have known anything. I'll report on VORCMN separately, allrloht, in order.

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Oi On* more questioncoold there be any consequences of the glrlT Si o not think so. It rue that: WYNNE gavereservative, but 1 Ot This is Important.

Si Of courae 't Is. ons'dered It. ane home end vashed and everything. She vas clean. hink she takes care of herself. WYNNE gusrantesd her bat at th* samee gsveox. No, no. Everything le okay. xclude this. ave little experience1 am responsible. Gi Thereroverb, if one Is. St One could get It from orte's own tlstcr. Gt

That's it. Yoa know ths proverb.o not th'nk so, butget cured, there Is nothing to fesr,o

not th'nk so.

rJJ St Jo, the RESIDENT sav me right avay In the morn'ng, belovryT In the basement In room number 8. The bookkeei era are next door. This room Is adjacent to the REFERENTURA. The main entrance to th* REFER ENTWA Is to the rlaht of the entrance, to the haseaent. Thisll Fn old him about the trip and showed h'm your material. Right then heode clerk. He brought an envelope end vas told to put the neterlal he envelope and to addreas lt to Colonel POOOV, V. M. from Colonelurname and initials). That vill gc out v'th th* next mall onay. Ot What were the n'tlals. St V. M. eported everything to him.

(Oj Gt What Is the nam* of th*ENT T St He did not tell meot ask anyon*. The photographicked out vas he'll rlak ny neck on that. But n" on* told me h's name, not even he. sked him vhether there wouldackageould be bringing back. He said perhaps there vouldetter for VORGN1N, th* Chiof the NAP HAVEL Nl YE. ould send that home. Whysk h'm h's name directly? now that SHAPOVALOV talks about everything* id not ask him any questions and yet SHAPOVALOV told me the character sties hose w'th whom he vorks.ay yoa v'llh vhom SHAPOVALOV Is work'ng. G: That's good.

Si Look up the nana of the person In the picture. Thehethe REZIDCWT. I've reported to hin In detaileJhnTJnetwr, ier of workp^ansvaas.. Ops off'car GEKEKALOV wjsslcntc! to onTaenWeok, toaorrov or efter tomorrow. I'll know shout thet et f've o'clock tonight. They nre bringing OENERALOV to th* enbesiy et f've o'clock for ne. n tr give OEMERALOV ell the tint* oiwmtinnysnes* end tr arrnnse the meeting Tor hin to neet

i ant yoa to tell ohnfensnntn about plan, had ftv ted ne to visit hin, but why drthk wh'akayT Iflth pleasure. I'll telephoneyh <to the lobby of this hotel. We'll neet here. I'll call OCNERALOV and arrange thatwe'll be drlnk'ng coffee. I'll tell hin thet will be here and that he le not 'n hla own town, will cone up to uaill Introduce then.

ntnasjaansb ahould b* toldhall not come ond v'lit h'n. I should not do thla. had asked ne to sean general, to tell him everything. annot do now. Tou told hin everything andan't spare two hour*. I'll telephonetonorrow. Haybi etnsnennTo could naks it tonorrow when GENEFALOV would be here to see ne Jn ny hotel roon. Later,ld come dcvn to the lobby or the bar an^ show U] Bt that tine. 2 tell hin the ttne und ask hin toew things, nt or two tens, and to say to me that he will mall me the other ItemBesicnt and steelequested. I'llto him, "Mr.

why do that? Here '* ny friend from the ONTX in the >essy. Hand Ithall ntroduce them and the deal will have been nads. That Is th* plan. 0: flna.

TjasajaasBb,call anyone himselfnever,

net Vweif GEKERALOV, until their relatione develop further. The HETIDErTT would Invite hin through GENT.RALOVthere will be an official Inv'totlonUt Mm en. old then about that he was an estesned personhe Is educeted, cultured, Iryal to us. He had visited the Soviet Union two tinea. old that ws could rot recruft him, and there o need to do thnt. He Is alreadyeare old, but we could get 'nformatlon from him. Ae the REZlDENT had said, hs would expect to get pjnsral 'nformatlon from h'm and so on. 'c, ammmnvsssv.ot be active he should not show any Interest., ak you to report my recuest. They1 com* to

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' heyach nsmnmnsmaa- wl th cartel! requests'O<toigurc ut what te . v* then. He should conduct hlmaelf plainly but firmly because he couldhad many

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questions. He could reply thit despite hi experience be dote not knew, but he could reply to some quest one by saying that he wae sure he was r'yht. You understand. Laterelations would develop Vhat dec'slon they would come to, you vould tell Mr ebout that yourselves. You*s. equest that you briefannot doo not undsrstand hln well. kay.

today. sked histhould sayt the Center. Ho asked ne to request the Center to permit hln to operate store oct'vely. As It is, he can work with the Indiana (Hindus) only. ad auppoacd that he wot working vith the Indians. He knows the language br'Uiantly. aid he knows Only two words nglish and even that in the nominative case only.

t, An Indian correspondent had given him some data. Thers-jrfa several Indianhere; there arc aany 2ndlans here. You aolvc that yourself. Set up snrvclllonce ond find out who, and what has to be done. The Indian Is paid by them; he Is their agent. The Indian passed on the Information on that day vhen SHAPOVALOV ves the duty officer. The information vas of apolitical-military nature, about some troop movements, about some new Americon bases here, and about deliveries of new arme to England. He told meeneral terms. id not display any

Si aldouldelegram to the Center, but he sftsVte tell then only If the HE71DENT sold to dc so. he RESIDENT does not tellm notythlng because they, vould chop off his head for tell'ng ne oboutl t. So, those tcle-

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roras, ondm telling you In general He IsPEZ1DENT did notord,ord. That means I'llanything,. sked CHATCVALOV to tell nc ebout the telegrenI could remind themthe general contents of the telegram,

no dctolls. Well then, the He knovs the 2ndlan

language very well; he had been In Ind'a and knows the language well.

10. St So, how, s simple to find thi* 2ndlan, and some thought should be given t' vhat to do next. You'll expose the IndianPOVALOV could soy that some Information had leaked to (Subject'shat lam afraid of. Gt ry, ve von't touch h'm. it The 2nd anery Informedaid person. Hr did not tell me that. o not

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knov whether he had picked hln here or had contact vith hln In India. The fact 'a that he la h'-aJ source. Justave beenn clever eometlnes, sonatinas, rarely but right. old hln, he docs not knov rngllsh, or he vould beritten report. If It vere given in English he cculd not translate fron English to Russian immediately. But he told the Ambassador about the contents right away. Therefore It must have betn In Indian,

19- Sj The next matter is most interesting too. Oi Walt, and your material, the brochurca, were they sent by the REZIDENT? St Yes, the RESIDENT In my presence, called the code clerk of his REZlDErfTURA, vho brought an envelope. It vaa placed in the envelope and will leave onh of May. Th* code clerk took It vith hln. There they collect diplomatic mall. o not have the material1 made the selection. He looked at electronics. Thererochure on Keaonlcs. There waa theicked up yesterday from Eerrantl and the one you gave ne on canning. Wow, this Is all on SHAPOVALOV.

20. Ot HovRR1MAH7 Willlus Tor yu If the RESIDENT transmits his report? Si Of coursel eturn I'll writ*cportl (Laughter). Whateed thet for? Ot Will the RE?2DENT send on* to his people? Sf ad reported to the REZIDENT and he hadote about MERRIMAN that (Subject's surname) and OENERALOV would meet you to discuss this matter, to arrange with SHAPOVALOV,HAPOVALOV introduces me to everybody. When could It ha done? aidould bring turn at.five 'cIocJOn an automobile; he had an operation.

t At five o'clock I'llalk. That vlll be vrltVea-'aovnelegram v; II be sent to Moscov. Then anreport la. saying that (Subject's surname) hadthat an acquaintance of his vhom he had met tv-ce, once In the USSR and once hereplus detailed data about the acquaintancethat he be used for getting Informat-'ona unv'ttlngly. yhallad suggested h'm to thend he vas transferred to caea officer OENERALOV. mall "plus" (laughter). That Is the wsy it looks. This *f* be 'n line with my program, my assignment. (Laughter).

eyes red7 Gl Thvy^are beginning to be. St

But IMo-'not want to sleep. Tohe REZIDENT chatted with me for thirty minutes and told ne the following things. He said Itflcult to vork. sked him why, he -aid that recently an Englishman had offered someilitary nature and had askedounds. H? had to have rgentlyouse, hie personal needs. Th* REZIDENT said that he had

esksdCenter. The Center replied es usual thet as tro much end wanted to know whether the materiel could be obtelned for study, but who would be fool enough to surrender th* materiel? Up to now he sold he had hod no reply, and the person did not give hin the nater'al. Thisact. An Englishmen w'th military Informationounds.

23. St The PE2IDENT Is taking his vacation In June. Prior to his leave he will travel around the country. sked hin about that yesterdey and he confirmed 't. He told me h'aseXf that he was waiting for his replscement on scientific and technical matters, the Colonel whose photograph you have not shown ae, PAVLOV. Had you shown me allould hsve found the one abouthall talk now.

Si This Is the content of the conversat'on. He Is plessed with everythingIs plaaaed with the Delegationhat there were n' Inc:dents. old him that toasts were drunk (seated) for KHRUSHCHEV and (stand no) for the Oueen (laughs). So heei.red, and .thanked m* for everything. hanked hfm. ave known hjn by faceong tine.

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Si In my prassncc he told the code dark tohat Colonel (Subjects surname) would leave by a'rplene on the 6th. He asked mead beenseudonym prior to my lesvlng. old himad sn tld one but there wasn't any need for Itravelled here. So, he told the code clerk tc use ny true name. The cod* clerk took nyaterial (laughs) and left. said thet he would writeletter, he could find meAP OVAL OV and aaked me what my plans were. old h'm there was an exhibit and then He said that everything was okay. AP0VALCV had reserved the tickets for the 6th cf Mey.

f26y El How. 1 left the REZXDENT and went for the delegation to hcWe 0: What tlmv was this? Si as-w'th th* RESIDENTate were at the Embassy, all five of us. laced everyb'dy inhere PAVLOV sits, and where the scientific group Is. SHAPOVALOV met me immediately. SHAPCVALOVhat. bout it. He went to the FEZIDENT ebout (Subject'snd was told that he would see ne Immediately. Not more thaninutes w'th the RE21DENT. HeAfCVALOV tc leevc. w*onversat'on Justrsclves. There wbs only the code clerk he left later too.

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Si He started to tell ne how difficult as to vork; PAVLOv"rias been evay for six months; OENERALOV hasHAPOVALOV does not know the language. He repeated the same thing again, but In brief. He said he vented to rest and vould send his wife earlier,that Is, his vife vould leave before hla. We said our goodbyes.

Si The bookkeeper; came Inas leaving. Thesection is right there, in, He said that he would pay each delegate separately. aid that that vould be fine. One delegate la paid from one account, another from another account. There Isonfusion that the devil himself vouldis head. eft for house /Io and brought the delegates to the bookkeeper. The bookkeeper calculated everything and geva us the money. The delegatesare vslking, seme side of the street then to the right, to the Exhibit, as leaving, the delegates, about three of them, were behind me.

Si enya Vt>RONIN pressing the button to tha REZIthwURA. aveign. He understood and ve didn't greet each other. Head ed he same house. VORONIN lived In'. His fathereneral ffcjorolitical vorker. He Is nov retired; he is not vrklng. They lived near the MVO headquarters 'n the houseriend. The mother had died. The father remarr-ed end gave to him (Jhcnya VORONIN) ana Meoom 'n my house, on the seventh floor. His wife, vhoere nev andlso act, badly wanted me to petittle.

30. Si He wears glasses. He Is near-sighted and wcart thick lenses. Heed caseTR1YA, external signs. He Is of medium helyht and on the sk nny side not exectly thin, solid but not fat. Ha wesrs glasses. VORONIN has been here for tvo years already, KGB. He had graduated from the Diplomatic AcademyU-HI* basic language vas Yugoslavian. He vas preparing to go to Yugoslaviaome reason did not go to Yugoslav's. English was his secondary language; It has been activated and he has been In England for two yeurs nov. Immediately after graduating from the Academy he Joined the KGB. He Is an acfve worker, impudent, during, He should be watched very closely, more so because you have picked up may KGB men.

St This ts whatthe RESIDENT told me. That you had some RTndawsuit here and some one hadypar sentence for illegal contact, for passing material, for spying, o not know when that happened, recentlyear ago. aid that In general It Is difficult to work v'th the English. Thr tater'es are high, thr lifeod. When en Englishman Is vfftred

oundss*ys that hit Jar.'tor gate that much but, when It combs'ounds what thathas usked, why this Is what happened. They aay, "Let's hava tha material and t laa'll pay It/' Ha aatd thatsnaral the English are fr'ghtened. Th*,lr standard of living is high and they are frightened, why should they take risksr 2C0 pounds, to put their heeda under the ax, to be Imprisoned? If one want* toisk than do It for large sums of money and our government does not pay large suns. They mutt produce rocketst You know, they want to brab twoh one hand. You know the expression; it la Indecent. (Laughter),

t He complained that they gv* too little money. Thatnow 't exactly. If one aaka fer alarge sun they do not ask to cut It In half, they sey one tenth, one-twentieth could he pa'd. Theyight fist on their moneyery interesting. There, In America, thereecla'on by the Central Ccemlttee too ball out MELIKH. It was KHRUSHCHEV's decision and It wTs upneTcT by the government. this Isetail, during the conv*rsatr.cn he mentioned that someone goteara. did not dlscloae to me who it waa. n listening and jtek'ng quest'ons with my eyes only. Whyisplay any Interest?

H* talked w'th ne forinutes and h* hadmeNaaCters sheet wh ch th* PE21DENT Is not supposed to'talkIorker he QRU. Qt Yea, of course. St Hewhat wasithe total sun of our conversation? He wants mefavorablyis behalf at the Center. Thlaoorof his men 's away, another rne, and another onethe language. Another one ool, tbat one says he ItAttache and cannot be active. He knowsaveI am an old member cf th* groop,ouldmnu to say anything; thorerth'ng to Theae were they talks with the RESIDENTand the deduct'onade about acquaintances One of them '* military,ivilian who Isthe Ministry, who had askedounds for military Who, ofwould get Into that safe vith

pleasureand would give.

(3qJ Si n passing by, anda pratsln^ the burter.

havW't finished with VORONIH yet. We acted as If we did not knw ectch other. The delegateseters and met h's wife who wasarriage hich was her twe-year-'Id daughter.

told* use the familiar form ofe used tcould doanted. Shf did not appeal to oe; 1

told her that In Moscow. ould never havs run Into her, but lnid (lsuphs). v< stoppedntroduced all the aesibcra of the delegation. aksd then to wait for ne. squeezed herlttls and aaksd her hew she felt. Therl was staring at ne. She told nead grevnold her that aha had changed also. Later they traded tha roon they had In houasny house, with her relatives. Her father had died recently, in Moscow. She said that sh* was planning to fly and rhenya would go on leave In the fall. He la FOB, he nuat be watched.

35. Yoa already had picked out end expoaed (PASKDLOLI)that Is very good. He Is very act ve and andoubtedly haa contactsn sure of that.. He has one nan for sure and one or two active sequelntanees. an say his abilities andare saeh that he ta not the kind of nan who would be setting end not doing anything. He wears glasses, shortera. VOROrTlHhow did w* alas his photo and PAVtOV'a tool So, at fivea repeating once more, I'll go to get ec-iualnted w'th OENERALOV, officially, and brief hln about MERRIMAN. 1 Inform you-When OENERALOV will cone to see me.

Si Everything Is going according to plan. isited the cabsreV-uccordlng to plan. (Lauphtrr). Everything Is/done eccord-"log'to plan. ould say that you are helping. Tha girt'is playfulInterest'ng. She knows -ngllsh "My. She was born Inould ask her how to say things ln English and she would say how do yoa say It In Yugoslav,' say In broken Russian end she would repeat (laughs). Okay, that Is all. Do we haverightinute of reatt

5l uestion. How tuppose someone contacts ne? What Wil he call me? What vould be ny name? Mill he call ae Alex, Paul, Peter,t First of all he will say, "How-d' you do? Oreetlngs from Colonel PEEKE Sf ell, how will he talk to me? We address eech other. ould like to have you give this some thought. Ot If you meet people off dallySt (Interrupts) Th-y'll know me officially as Mr. (Subject's Ot We have agreed,1 be off'c al and you will be

t est on. I'll have reports,lwr ta w'th the eld of cerbon paper, te conceal some Important nf motion. I'llheet of clean roper. How vlllnov that there n message there? hould make

some mark. Otherwise yeu could think that ltrapper and throw way. But I'll have information there. Here, there is the usual, atandard paper. I'll makereport out with the eld of carbon paper. Howarkso that you wouldi All pepcra would be checked. St hould mske some kindark} omething not normal. Hi We'll both know.

39. St But why should yeu check clean wrappera when there is nothing there, and there will not be. hall not carry It. But there w'llheet, folded thus. There will bei If you had some naterlal end among ldlank sheet of paper then it would be clear that there omethlngc-on It. Si Well, the aheet will be folded 'nto four ports. Oi Fine. Si Likehen develop It. Ol That's good, but don't place any marks, If theres It may draw suspicion. Si Oh yea, corrsct. ad to ask.

t Nov, something hss happened tc ny radio alluddernr^Wcll, they have trsns'stors and yeu are giving ne Ihe batteries! Xf tha batteries goon threw them away, but If eomething else breaks! Ol You can got 'xed there. Itormal radio. Si Now, if something happens tohrend It to you for repairs! Hi (In English) The camera^ We shall send him the second one by WYNNE. Gi You'llpareia WYNNE.

Uri. /St Now, another thing. avr another refusal, eachomere, your Instructions, do not give It to WYNNE. Oi Under no circumstances. Si Send them by diplomatic pouch. As soon as WYNNE arrives he'll get them. At the sameaveote of this. Perhaps it would be worthwhile; plet.se think this over, that Is, to send these things here, my eultcesc, by diplomatic pouch. When WYNNE comes he will bring It to his hotel. Would that be okaythe suitcase! Ol That is not that s'apie. Si fa the freight expena've? Hi (In English) It Is notestlon 'f the price. You see, the plen he (Subject) put 'Ot the rther day. was much better. See,on't want to do o have VYrfNE going into the embassy,irty grey eu'tcase. Taking It Into the place, Il can be noticed. mall packageriefcase. Thato different problem. usinessman he can carry it, walk around the street. irty grey suitcase out of the embassy I* net ncratal. Gi (translates above into Russian.)

UZ. Si No. Th- csrs drive Inside beyond th* gate. The militiaman remains outside. He has no right to go In there because 't Is Inviolable terr'toiy. Oi But the dr ver Is KOB7 St Whose!

Oi The chauffeur? St No. Nov our middleman, an Englishmen, has received those things. He knov* they are for me, or for WYNNE. He cones to ths Embassy; the car drives up to the embassy entrance and WYNKE brings the suitcase to the hotel. Thisariant. Gi (In English) He Is talking about an official car. The embassy csr brlnts the suitcase to WYNNE'S hotel. St Okay, let'a not do it. Hi fin English) It Is not normal, yon ss*. Oi It Is not normal. (Nctet Several people talk at once. It vas agreed that the material vould be delivered to Subject in peraon.) St Just In case, ve must bear In mind, that things could be sent to me by mall.

i oviet telephone, it Soviet and bad but that>-te"of no consequence. It vorka veil. Ue have many Yugoaldv, Ctech and Oerman telephones. Theae are not possible to buy since they are ordered by our mlnlatr'es. My point Is thisIt Is very simple to take our phone out andicrophone in our telephones. All my telephone conversations' can be heard without lifting th* receiver. equest, not nov, but later. Sendevthrough WYNNE or other channela, preferably German or Ctech. Oi Could you buy one yourself? Si annot. Gt You could install It? Si Of course. Then they could not tap the line end use th* telephonemicrophone. Secondly, the vorkers come. ad theong time. They vers near the telephone during my absence. xclude completely that something has been connected, but forent tcew one, throv the oldavay, andeught it.

St They are acid, but It 'e very dlfflcvlt to getfcult. ule they arc distributed. This 's myteTcphone apparatus. o not vant aneGerman. it vork? Si Yes. Many houses have vhlte telephones,portable ones. Everything is the same, Ot Hov abcutparts? And one could dial? Jt Yes. The numbers arcthe Latin lettere ere painted over vith cur ovn letters. ant to replace my talaphonc. Gt Have you had it No. ouldought Itriend, fromman. Think about that. eparate apartment. see !t? It cemc from Cr*choslavakla: It Is d'fflcult to We v'll have conversations, but thenows, youmaybe Gt Yes. Yea. Si now, ve vere taught hov

to adjust andicrophoneur telephones.

Si The next very Importanto y'VO it some/thought. n as another (Soviet) agent, spy is caught. Analyse all spies vh' were caught during the past year, two, threeSoviets in all countries. Using them as reasons,ot*.

1 am leading up to the proposal that personnel of Soviet embassies, trade delegat'ons, and Consulate* should be cut. You will chat* oat many active operational Intelligence ofricera and will create confusion between the services fighting for slots. Thla vould dtaorganlce them for approximately alx months,ear, until they sent In new ones. Believeood idee. Oi Fine. Si In this reaped we will weaken the* somewhat. m not saying thet we wfll eliminate completely, but we'll hinder them very much. Thla la all accord'ng to ary. Gi Fins.

And we should catch another one, and then analyze.

li seems io mo sotiwntm um. nu-v - ems

to me that there are more Soviets than Englishmen and Americans in foreign lenda. ooked at ths Soviets herereat colonye wholeion: - Decrease them, all categories, becaase spies ere inatetled everywhereh attache, 1st, 2nd secretaries and counsellors. Decrease them alll It seems to me thaten did have to decrease your apparatus In Moscow wc stould do business with the existing apparatus. But to deactlvste the Soviet organs In England, In Aaerlcsthisary Important question. It csn be played up from th* political point of view. Tell them you have too manymake It less. We should give this deep thought/ It la an Important problem.

Ji7 J Or eve eeveral questions which we can finish now because the rest we will leave for tonight. We have much to do. We had prepared everything so that it is all systematic. Si ant to add one thing about WYNNE. ant you to tell WYNNE that when he goes to Moscow he should not expect free food, free sutomoblle, free hotel room from either the Government or the Committee In wh'ch (Subject's surname) work*. He will not beree room on the Exhibit grounds. This Is not England. Just becsuse he wined and dined and drove themsr here thus saving them money fer their personal expenses, tell h'n not to demand the same from (Subject's aurnsms). He has been tcH'ng mee to time that he hopedould arrange everything for h'm there. There will not be anything. No onegn the order to issue funds fbr WYNNE. For that reason WYNNE should be taken care beyond that which the ftrate give him In tersis of minimum allowance. Let him gohout hla wifem not ashamed before him. annot do anything for him. m not permitted to do this at ry personal expense. Tell him not! tc be angry with me. an do for him I'll do. H: Allrlght,l do this.

i Prior to our last review of the signal plan, herelarptTTn of the tine schedule. There woald he only one transmission per month sent repeatedly every Saturday and Sundayours. St Thise. gree. Let ns reviewlll take wltl metha 'nstruetions, the signal plan, film, and thisthe csjisrs. The translator Is in the suitcase. I'll put theand catalogues on top of It. Gt here I* noth'ng on It now. St This w'll he here; It will be under my feet. Gt Mow all thisthree siresdo them by tomorrow aornlng. St Yes. Nov thesene peds vould be la my pocket. That 's clear.

Mi?-) Si Now about this notebook where USA Is written, the1-black-cover,hall not take the cover. I'll Join the four sheets of carbon paper like this and the rest will be clean paper. I'll not take the cover. Gi Okay. Si It la too large, and then there Is "MideSA". Ifeautiful cover that vould be anotherut it is ef the common type. It Is good for camouflage. I'll camouflage tha carbons v'th something else. Gt Maybe we canrltlah cover. Hi Yes, ve can. St And I'll transfer the curbon Into It.

poO Si Now, let us think, gentlemenWYNNE could not come for somjr unforeseen reason; someone gave me theo to the dead crop. We ulrcady worked that out. Oi Yea, and Instructions for you would be there. Si Yes there would he questions and instructions. It does not matter. Then I'll beontact with that c'rl and the baby carriage. Gt All Instructions vlll be there. Si equest. There were suggest1 ons: we hed talked much. Very many matters were dee'ded. All your other adv'ce write down for me. I'll read everything, and burn It well. Oi We propoaa do do all that tomorrow.

VSlT) Gt We'll review photography, ve'll look at the ciphers, I'll show you St You gaveipher forcoupa. ecode It, hoveply? Perhaps something vould be urgentto vhomeply? Gt 1 be 'nstruetions on thst. 1: Do you have the telephone number for ne? Gt You'll have It tomorrov. All operationall be taken care of tomorrov and vlll be prepared clearly and s'mply. Already you knov when to listen to the radio, >ouhoice as to vhat day,

52. St ant to tell yeaj something. SHAPOVALOV had requested me to see General LYAIOfTEROV. He Is theur relative KHLOPOV. H* waa formerly the Chler cf the Fourth Directorate. SHAPOVALOV hadictionary on the Hindi language and turned It o the Foreign Language Department of the MilitaryAcademy so that they wouldt and have It published. I

tell'ng you th's so that yeu would know how woll ho knows Hindi. He hasictionary. He has business net with one agent here, probably more, but he has one for sure who can be easily caught.

There are several questions left. Ve cannot coverthese but wa stillalf hour left. We'll do ns much as There are rumors that yeu have duplicate hcadjUortera forand for._the_Oovernment In the event of war. They areheadquarters are hidden somewhere In Have you heard about them? St Whet Ot Tha k'nd which are needed to operate, auch asheed,cartersIn case of war. St Thoseheadquarters, eaerve_ s' teall government functions, heve been set up. has been worked out.

C5V Ot The mllltery, too, since this Is easy to displace. St YcsX-^Thereuge. Command Post. Thryirt he subway In Moscow, somewhere bstween the Kremll* end the General Headquarters, deephere Is an electric (train) that goea there. That exists. Oi Are there any in the Urals area? Si Yes there.sre. Operational groups fly there from every ministry. Everything Is In the rocks, underground. Oi You do not know exactly, but 'n the Urals area7 St In the center of the Urals somewhere. There are shehere.

i By theentioned thathe Urals there are vi'vLsTtlon hangars, underground factories. There are very aany underground structures, but It Is very, very expensive. I've been told that this takes up so nuch money that there ere no roods. There Is not enough noney for the roads, but for civilian andderenac constructions there la plenty cf money. Oi Probably th's duplication also exists In nllltary districts. _PVO.Si Yes, absolutely. The commsndsr of the district takes care of that. He Ua an eng'neer directorate w'th engineer brlgedes to do this. This Is the problem fori commander of the district eccordlnp tc the moblllutlon plan. Only mlary, not civilian.

Gi In the event of sn unexpected war, how much reserve auppHie* do the land troops have7 What 's the supply levelT Si now thatays. O: In place? St In place. But,eg'nentIt would not all be In the reg ment's hands. It would be In rear supply points. The unitsive day supply carried en hand, also conned foods, hard tack, etc. G: That would

be for the theater of operations? Si In general, the commander0 day supply. If he does not rece've anything, he vlll be able to feed large units. He has flour, grits, concentrates and canned. Ot Who la responsible for this supply, aay

roup or Forces? St That Is done by OROMOB. That Is tho soul of the aray. Ot Why do you aay thaU si The OROHOB, the Organ! zetlem-Hoblat Ion, abbreviated to OROHOB. It can be a

Nov, In general, you have Juat broughttrategic one. It Is an important problem. We had talked abouthn CBLASTS* VOYThTfCHAT must be spotted and destroyed. They ana vital. G: This brings or the .ucst'on of vhat exactly Is the mobilisation plan. Who dee'des vhere recruits should go7 St Begln-

- of the

vhere the

system. Down to and inducing' tawAYON there are acaled envelopes. These are to be opened in the event of vor by each RAYON VCYENKCrvYT. The contents have been prepared by the General Staff. The Instructions state exoctly according to vhat plan vhat should ba done. This plan has been completely vorked out 'n time, phase, periods, suchlus one, etc. This plan haa prepared lists of what-personnel vlll go to vhat unite, vhere veh'cles, equipment and even horses vlll be assigned. The localot thle point merely opens tha envelope and follows the inmedlate Instrnct'ons prior to receiving instructions from higher commend. Evenoded cable did not arrive from the OBLAST or military diatr'ct headquartera yet, until receipt of auch, the local commander knovs exactly vhat to do. This Includes dispositions of personnel, supplies, equipment, etc. Ha vould knov vhat to do for the frrst three days. Supplemental Instructions covering the period uplusl follow later.

S "it theET it'll used ss 'n the pastf Sisve one'll sendhotocopy of mine. Gt Does lt also Include tho pink moblIllation Insert? St Yes, 't dose, but tt Is given only to lover rankingn-came and officers through the rank cf captain. Majors and above nc longer have this Insert. OYENNY BILETegendad been demobilized. You vlllopy of thisInlll devote an entire film'decumerts. I see ny Party BILET, nyHNOST1 and all my various passes to different organizations, my VOYENNY BJLET endan passport. This passport whichven to all off'cars who work In 'ntelligencr and

IrU U

receive civilian paseports ii called an operational passport. Pay clpse attention to the naaorlcal designation on thisill underscore It foryeo. Ifnllltfaamn chocks nynnd notice* these numbers, he will pass ae hy, resitting, thet this Is an operstional passport andave not been demoblilted or anything of that aort. Otherwise, sxcept for tha code nnabsr. It look* Ilka any civilian passport.

f??) Ol What kind of alerts do yon have? For example, there are training nlorts and then there are other categories. St Is the sir" alert which exists at In thshemical warfareoabat eUrt for troops to easanble troopa. Thlacnsrsl alfrt. "Tor example, at the academy ther* were

K

clflc assembly point* for- each cf th* five depertnenta and for lastracllon personnel. COJKTSOV would elways till one of thesa every two month*rectIce alert. eneral alert aay ba followedhen'cal elert. We general elert la th* basic ens. Than they criticise deficiencies In the speed of ssiembly.

rooJ St In the General Staff we alsoystem of gttgSggMgYt which neans^^nrKould notify whom In case _of_an alert. Thla -Is thr key_to lasnrlnjCthe "desfrsd sseeably In cesa of en alert. In garrison positron* aTarls "con be'y sound devices, bat where people liveivilianersonal contact method by phone and even Jn. person.nust_he.HbTl sneoT Each officer moat alwaysmell suitcase with minimum articles for peraonal useforckup. Other academics may have only one slert in- three men the. That isl thsr en the Individual direction of the chief tr by an overall garrison commander.

To what exton lea andjy_are

on.bet reedy acu; are brought out includ

1 Vehlc

IIM asvaunitlon, etc. One cannot tell whether or noT conaeiuent action will

pment brought out?

nke. place'after

s no such

the alert la sounded. Ot Is thera any preet'ea alert which takes piece In aform w'thoutlOlpment, etc? St Yes, but It Iseneral elert with specific Instructions added to It, namely to assemble without this snd that esulpment or arms. So li I*eneral alertallfleet ons. But there category es practice alert.

>2i) Ot Whet type of anneal maneuvers and trroj- dej-loyments takeVtace? 5i ill send pom Utaj;vereclhis and ymi can tee all the deta'ls for yourself. 0: How aboutay reserves? Do you not have large numbers of both enlisted and ff'ccr reserves? St are extensive reserves and they continue to train them by reran? of assemblies. Ot How often de they have to go? Si n what their VUS (vr-YENNC-UCHEBNAYAMOS) Is. If they ar* technlclens,re celled naftr.

-3

If h*eterinary, and we hava frw horaaa now, he aay be called cnce In three or five yeara. Now that technical equipment plays each ft greetand technical units are extensive, engineer* and technician* art called up te be trained In new technology. There are ten-day training periods, ona-monthtnrse-eionthperiods. It all depones on what the training program ha* been set for.

i What do you estimate the also of^YOur.reserves

$1 Kaaf afraid to guess, bat If yoa Insistougheay that thers is at least one reserv'at for everyonedutyost categories, and In certain specialties there

would he two or three reservist*oaperable nan on

Of course, we alway* have new conserlpta. Oi Yes, hut thatcategory*

Vhenthe aray would he

on* nilllon two Hundred thousand troops tc what extent was this demobilisationut? SI Thls_problen has not yet been dec!dcd even now, ThTsdie conversat'on and

r*dule*ypy we* this di not yet bei

ia unit dejrflsnfttIon, lri"three. daysthe unit

tlons and reglnents. remain Just the cause. can he filled

cooVpiete deceit;Tavler^lhie pretext they are discharging physically unfit, old people, and politically unreliable persons. And the rest theyouch. He hasny skeletonised unite out of dlvl-

nany

Buty.Dtr!oiintL, In case of saargency.

out according to the erganltatlon-sioblllratlon plan.the OBLAST VCYtHKCTbATY would be aeatroysd, thsf* vould b* coaplet* panic In case of war. They denU even have real safes where thetr papers are hept, but?strong boxes wh'ch would easily he destroyedood fire. If the contents ware destroyed, even though reservists would know where to report in'tlftlly, they would not Know what to do froa there onall details are included in the Mobilisation plan*

u

i

01 Vhat would yon say that the strength of _the Soviet Army Is nowf^ KHRUSHCHrtV mentioned that there af*Ihrie million six hundred thousand. Si We est'nat* It to be aboutmillion. Ol la thia from rumor or from statistical data? Si After all, when on* worksh* Qanjral. Staff and breathesir. It Is not difficult to compute, desplt* reductions ln strength, hov many divisions there are, etc. Wrastlnste that, Including sll armed, forces, ther* are.flvs million. 01 Can Sialready estimated together what the naln headquartera conalsts cf and got upundred end fifty thousand parsonsold you that the headquarters of th* Ministry of Defense alone has tventy-cljjit thousand. now exactly. Gi How about the breakdown by air forces, naval forces, etc? Si This Is known to the Minister of Defense, hla deputies, th* Central Committee, the chief of the Oeneral

However, he wculd

torete. If you ask SEROV, he woaldnH know, know/wore about Ito.

5Uff and the chief cf the Mobtlltatlonul and Organisational Dlrec-

U6*/ Oi Do you have any Idea of the budgetary allocation given toOWf Si aaem caberof the First of all they eonsider, of course, thaay.yenre ego wa had eeven thousand oen ere la. on't knowny va have now. There they would compute for foreign duty what the monthly equivalent pay wculd have to he In foreign currency. 1

or aU.OOO per year. Then all ether intelligence personnel were competed similarly. Our operational funde were alwayaoutingira. Thi* waa used Tor sgent support. Oi Suppose youather expensive operation! Si For this, supplementary funda would ba sent froa Moscow. Monies ard transferred through the en batty ami'nance- of fleer knows for whom the allocations are. Agent support funds, operational travel, and oven operational entericlnment, are ell operational funds. Vehicle repair, fcntfatng, etc. ar* adalol fund*. an't giveRU total, olould ore eh down what Individual income* arc.

How about the toUi__nUIUry How Is that broken-down? Si That Isbroken: down, rTOUSHCHEV may announce that there arc one hundred billion TuSIes for military purposes, but no breekdown Is g'ven. This Iseduced figure

M* frem which payments or* made towhich produce more material. Yoa shouldvn* thatannounced) aiMUery budget Is actually two toalf nor*whtr TTpabllcly -

xtjnery which djd_not_have proper protcctve sheltVrto order large ouants cf Canvas crvers. However

ear or twe these covers rolled. a d1 scaraeff theseot:

of several million ruble* and spent twice as much to construct permanent steel and concrete shelters. Despite th* ultimate sav'ng over canvas as well as theof ordnance, he waic'ltl-clrcd for this bl^ure.""

(VoT) Oj Let me see what other questions we hav* here. Yon aentroney VCh before and aald yoa wonld get ujUL^Jtfffilory. St ill giveatllltary units__thaV.lLrunlready gave youthe academyive you th* on* at Kap-ustin Yar a* well as Oc ean the VChTelephone system"; Si That"lassified telephone Mae need bytheoovern-asnt and for other official purposes, cverycne In tha OTnerai .Staff does notCh. Ot Can It not be intercepted? St Ibelleve It Is difficult to Intercept andine which Is connected with allornfTven with the countries^TJemocrocIes.anthrough wh'ch wc can be switchedwitchboard, but this csn be Thehae 'tt own circuit and to get the city line you first. On Incoming calls to u* welso be reached by these wBo know the add It onal letters tc odd. The VCh isour number system but goes from sw'tch-bbsrd to switchboard betwaenttcwas and it la considered..to be oscare to use.

Gi Her* Is en economic question. Does the cemra ttee cailVd--tnef Economic Mutual Assistanceelationship to the Varsew^pfcT? St OTlronrBe It It controle andeverythlnsj. The Warsaw Pacthg, and.ary aid. uTknownhis" committee? St All this jjoee through tha" on of the Central .Committee which has to do w'th the countries of Peoples' Democracies. Ifilitary siatter then it "would gcTenth Directorate of the Ministry of Defense. The Chief of Staffeputy who Is concerned only with there matters. Oi Who Is the commsnder of the Tenth Directorate? St He eneral of the crmyormer commanderthe Transcaucasian Military district.

Gi wrr'cdt your time now and we can leave theseVlner thlnyslpht when wc mart again. r.nlnent parson who will meet yu tonight will come here. He will cone, after

Do you hove any Idea of what it costs to fully5 jnUtalSen? fit ave no Ideao knowoata^taaetlyublea (In old money)sa ordered to destroy one fnTurkayad to elon papers. Of course7 endra far more expensive. Just keen In mind that for very overt things such as Individual pay. cest^of running academiesillary Installatlona, thalTl* where thebudget car, be seen, but neither VAHKltTSOV nor OAU pay for the production of" cannons and fochetsT That Is al I" done "hy secrettcch are all pad ofthe GOSPLAN.

w* have tit andwill visit yen Tor half an hour or so* St ill be back bora0 hoars then. ill aeot the asn, snd whenes the ,aoen (Jokingly)? ers in theonld aak to aest KEKKEDY. J: aeen happens to he In Italy at tAeaononi, St now. J'n Joking.

Rt Ask hla If he will have t'na toew practice f'lae be/or* this evening. St an do thla. Jast for Load It yourself tohat yoa know how and take It with yoa. H: Then we csn developonorrow andheor row evening. Si Sow" will tell hineed. Or ave already translated the (teasEnglish end have it typed. You keep this list sinceear control list wh'ch was given to you by the nob nan In his own hand. St Thank yoa. ill take this. ill leave all other natsrials except the caaera. ill aee vynw right away, thenittle and vc to the Consulate0 hoars. ill rsturn here0 houre. ay be f. v* or ten Minutes late* but no norc. Ot Pick up yoor noney; yeu nay take it with yea. We'll sac you later. St Thanh you. (Subject departed at ltpUC hours)

Original document.

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