MEETING NO 11, LONDON, ENGLAND, 1 MAY 1961REGARDING PENKOVSKY

Created: 5/1/1961

OCR scan of the original document, errors are possible

Uj (uhj-ct arr'vcd ot Peon ri^urt Pcyalurs Imrd 'at" ly uj rnbj-ct rewftrt'e eai rn;on the table which hadccjulred by 'hr doctor for VubJ-ct.) Gi Th--re ore yuibut wc will chang* th" label*I appear thereon, ft Why can't Ily sayi*Mi(,ht It at the jhflrmsc>7 ay that? Gt No, because t And If 1 ill the whole th'nu fTT G: Mo, we will take care nf It,ve o you. m So thi? In the tltuatlcn. st. G: Hot tr feet these med'einer m'xed . hi y well. (All laugh.) Oi Youowwh'ch one Is therex. kay*

2. hi losed [art> Just for cur*=mall one. Thi*r seh*dule, ufen sea 'f thereostvo av caver been there: nother sectionLondon1 have ch'ldrens* iand danc'nj,. Th-rc wen't be anything else trday. am , the flirt ofoi 'day,have to work. o* told thet the jarad- wa* veryreck-ts. On- wan u ron which srace menandheochets. ot nfhlr" nothing newhown. That'sa*'t ha?be ch-c'-ed,id not see 't. be ablt

toyu *onc jhoto ohnt*e made from the TV pr-Santa* t'on. 't l yu here waaw, cr verything wna 'Id. Tci^rrcwO0ov e, "Th* Blindn" will fca el^wn ot the Embassy end et lOOt- hour* liter* n "rcirrtrr t' In- London won'to theaus* w- hav*hn. Sotittlenr.

"-! Now *he day after th-fn^ the PP7IPFNTI der't know exactly whenri out tonormw. H* will set th" I'ew*. Me-he 6thf not the 5th, and we returnh- sane ilane. f5 hcurs London t'me. We leav-hotel0 "ours on the 6th. ill be In Moscow at ieoj hours. Inhin ansn callort on my flight there andythlng, Ht Yes. Si Th*r* In Morcowl*ave th" things on Satuidsy and goalk. on't use mv telephone nt home. H: Okay.

fflj Si Th- new hard lire Apt lea aking towardsar -very-Cc talh.Ino at the Fmhenry, Thy ere alarmed by 'tl Thy sey If Am-rica und rtsltes anything n, nethe Cuban* he USA, thenl he fricult [osltlon. causecan -nly tend food, WtS| en I :nd gold. re no

APPROVED FOR RELEASE

tu

m*?n* c thcw rochets then there willar. polte to ihe^ounTMIor,"fron ihef the Hillary Attach* Th*Ir thlnVJng Ist Teen* that tha Americans wiltery severe course of action and vr will beery difficult BOSl-t'en because we will have to do something. romise to f'nd cut something frcn SHAPOVALOV about the report. on't force h'fsi It wouldn't seem normal. ll get atlight report.

5- "l roroae that we worltan b* fieaurs ten'{tht, hut tomorrow, not Ot Fine, Tomorrow rcss-'bly during the day, e leave Ferrant' By thealled t'. day at abouturs and no one answered. Ot Strangrl Voo weren't connected? We. were Tt aidut1 called to tell yeu about Ihe TVasat Only at Ihls I'M In the raorn'npllfe that 't was recc*sary to geac': at once to the Embassy.ad this idea. Think about this. Th-re is an awfullyumber of perscn* at tbe "mbassles a. Great Britain end th- other Waitcrn countriea. We can maket dlff'culfea for th* Soviets, slartnu with the MID, the KC-B, and our Strategic Intelligence. This should be checked to aret pract'calto havee Counsellor, oner-tery, one 2nd Secretary: to cut thfm down and cut down the number stat oned oscow 'f It posr.Iblo. ow all the existing problem*. et ny tasit. My task Is tr "ffer suggestions based on the actual s'tuat'on. Thusuge number peopleLook at London!Why are so many peopleereT hink there are more Soviet representatives here than (Western) reprcacntalivcs "n Ol io what it your schedule for'tomorrow? When will you be at the TtbassyT St Tomorrow evcn'ng0 hours,here but, of course, 'I 's necessary tr go there0 hours, Ot Of course. St During the day we vll go to Ftrrant'. Okay.

6. St Andant to contact MRPRIMAN. Ot ell. St To preparewithlrite down everything that you prepared. Ht He oufcht to try end do this, because MEWUF'ANery busy men; He should ring MERRIMANours tomorrow morning. Ot Tomorrow, call MEPIU-MANcur*. Write down everything. ill give yen all'nfermatlon. av- all the Information. Write down as much as ycu w'ch.

Si Let's fn th the olhcr th'ng. It la nece?iary tolena tic channels. If we hav* feweroscow then, Irrcufeh proper channcla, we asV why they have more than

we do? Buithe low rank'ng perBonsut the others. Thle would create adifficult situation, who will be removed? Everyone Is e'ther connected w'th someth'ng or has special asa'grments, truggle for supremacy w'll commence. Let'i 'l'nlnate from the Strat*g'c Intelligence. The KGB will applyand JHELFXIN will ask KHPUSHCHEV to leave h's men. We, In turn, w'll epply pressure end will ask that our men be left. If th' (representation) '* not equal, then this should be done. If the (representation) Is -quel. It may be possible to remove one sect'on. We should aay, "Let's dlscnss this. Why should we have so many representat'ves, both yours 'n our (country) and curs In your, (country)." If thla won't do us anyPresent) It in this way. O: y well, we w'll consider this.

e la the 'rtformatlon about MEPRIMftH. Siill wr'teownMEnr-IMAN. What 's h's name and patronymic? Of Arthur Douglas.ife and two childrenson and daughter. St .That 's not-necessary. Two ch'ldren 's enough. Gt Yea. He Mhes Mr- l'ttle grandch'Id (girl) who livesent and whom he visits often. St That 's not necessary. Otecondary school mnchester. Thm he attended two univers'tles

Camr-rldge and Durham. has two higher educet'ons? Ot Yes. e has awards and honors. St How many awards? The rames are not needed. Gt He has two of the h'ghest awards. Th'-Oeorge Cross, Mi Trll hfr> what he got 't for. Ot He got It for

he fought In Ihe Army enT'n* World. U Such t- are not'necessary. Gi And th* Order of the British Empirel?. he George Crosssmentling the f'rsl Oerman magnetic mine. St Isen engineer by profession? Gt LalT heonsultant for all types ofhe durat'on of the war) Th" dlssrm'mi rf sll kinds of nam? nilpawi Hepec'allst. St That Is clear. Gt Hla military srrv cet During Wcrld Waras 'n the Royal Army Ordinance. Zt This Is not necessary.

He part'Clpated orld War I. Ot 5 hehe British (Army) rnglneers. visited the USSRh.nelen. t'flc Advisor to General ALEXANDER. This If npnrtant because they csn check this end find "ut about him. Si Is he Lord ALEXANDER? Ht Yes. Heord He wasord at the time. 0: You have h'a positions the flret t'me he was connected with military ordnance: and the second t'me with th* engineers. How his educa-t'on... Si Two universities and secondary school. Gt Now the ranks he received and what famous organisations he belongs to. Si Th-ne are not necessary. Oi Let me give yoa an example. Heellow In the Royal Society ofburg, Companion In the Institute of Mechanicaloctorlence. It ighly educated personl Gi Hehird degree. St octor of Science. Ot In the city of Lisle. Si The cityeededa Doctor of Technical fclrnces. Gt He Isasterrts and heortran'en of the Insftut-Techn'-logicBl Engineers. St

So by educationk exper lenceo, he I? an eng'neer: hoember of prera'nent englneer'ng *rganleat ens, Does he have any Inventions? Ot Let's see. Also, heh Oeneral VAVELL; he was h's sc'entlflc advisor. He does have inventions. Write this, ft This Is very good. We never give it so completely. Ot Herocess by which hever- pledge objectsanner thntn't tarn'orrode. He won't sell this patent and keeps It for himself. He la very proud ef the fact !thal hemallhat belongedthe Duke of Edinburgh, rnay that It does not tarnlrh. ore this It was 'mposslble to clean all the small parts ef the ship. How tands as an example of sc'enHflc achievement. St Preserved It for ages. Qt This Is an example. St nderstand.

9. Ot n. Si Now more about h'm. Of Cf cours- yu can deecr'b* h'm. He Is short, wearsit fatou know this yourself. St new thisbald, f glasses. Ot Heember of the City Delivery Company. Ia that transportation delivery? Ht Ne, no. you can't explain that In .any other language. This Is one of the old cty companies. on't know how you can explain th's. Qt What does It do? Ht lt doesn't do anyth'ng. This ort of honor. Th-reot of Cty gu'lds and things In the Cty. Ot ee. emher of the London Council. St Off the Workers (laughs). Mi It Ieor to be elected to one of these city comjan'es. Ot You understand. Itpecial recogn'tlon. H: It Is not public et ell. Qt It Is en honor for his accomplishments. St Ahl An honoraryhe London Council. 0: By character, heet or h'mself. He knows what he knows and wants to eonvnc* You knew heot of himself. Ct Yes. Ot He IPo talk about all the "npertant jeraens he knows. St So heide circle of fronds and likes to talk about them. Ot Exactly. J: That is an 'n; orient polntl SI Wld- circle ofand friends. And wants to enlarge this circle, and toh'm-elf technically. St In other words, he continues tc work! Qt And wants to go further. St Yes, Ot as plenty"n'tlatlvr. ?t And Is highly loysl to the Soviet Un'on. ay this? Ot He is the author rf many bo'eVs and techn'cal publIcat'ons. St He Is the author of many technical tubl'cat'ons. The subjects are not needed. This Is very detailed. They willnew hjn like your father.

10. Ot ently heetalIurg eat Dictionary. St Technical Dictionary rn Metallurgy. Ot It It moreextbook'ctionary. si allurcy. Wry goodl Very goodl ill show nterest his at once. illve us the eddressl How Is the address wr'iten 'n English?*1

Because there 'slike the calling card? Ot Yes.

Pi eft the call'up. card av- his calling card. Q: And all hla files are printed on It. it They are all wr'tten there. Ot And yu will he able t" expleln what they ore because you now know. The first Is an order, GC: the second, an rrder: then the medals. G: . Is the Order ef the British Empire. St Get his calling cord. Ht Okay. St PE?IDENT w'll ask me for 't because he w'll be conslder'ng this inh- to ass'gn to contact h'm. 0; Now thethis ra'ght be important. St rote theillolon and you w'll give o'sic 'n addlt'on.-

II. Ot 's only one more detail about h'm. Despite all h's mportant achievements and fr'ends he still lives very simply, out of town,odest apartr-entks cut ontracks. St Not In a" fash'onable nc'ghborhoodery nodestly, Gt Very, Not far fromHill Station. Sie me theave hs telephonesn't ask him for his addressill be all mixed up, Ot How do you go there? You see there 's this railroad Ht So he

lives by Streatham Hill Station on the District I'ne. St Fine,ave something to talk about. Ot Is ItSt Yes. Plenty.

1 wantort to youid today. Mr. andant to Harrods where we spent three hours. OoMt Ahe! St tl ons'der thet it wes r'ght that WmUSHCKEV was net tal'en there when he waeondon. He should look at the garden, singing birds, the fountalnsl asouldn't take VARENTSOV with me: he would have bought all the roses. (All laueh.) hould hav* loadedor and sent It. We looked et everything. Things are expensive there. Mrs. WYNNE helped me greatlyecision and boughtuit fcr 2Jf pounds'ft. was del'ghted. Because she helped; m m'nuaounds. WYNNE has all the bills end receipts. Oi We don't need the receipts. St) Hoi So that you can check? Gt Who cares If s more cr less. St It is Just that one of your people might thinkool- more pounds than necessary. ave three funds left. Ht You have three left? That Is good. St idn't huyought myegular Spring-Autumnral for myalt for ny w'felike theought for Mrs. WYNNE, the same pr'ce, nun fly and colorsalad color. ghtwh'te blouse, bathing suit and bathrobe Tor my daughterwo kerchiefs, two bottles rf perfume,stlcks. ought some after-shave lot'on for myself. But things ore expensive. ounds:ew other minor things snd three pounds remain. Please take some money from my account and yvo o me. ave not bought the watch or the rng,

inglei* shoes or the purse for ray mother. Ot But you dideable percentage of the things. Si Yet. Ot At least In quantity. St WYNNE has everything. ring anything here.

M3ef Gi How w'll WYNNE carry this for you? It Is dangerous, -i nrrwhom? For WYNNE? Ol Yes. He can be seized as aSi Who will se'te him? 0: At Customs. St an guarantee that WYNNE won't have Ms luggage Inspected. Oi ill meet h'm. Oi He won't go through Customs? Si No, his su'tease will go through Customs, however, they don't loo*. Thoyver 'nspected h's luggage during three years of h'sto the USSR. Ot What would happen If they looked? St If

opened it? Bringing various things for fr'ends. peculatorhe who br ngs twenty sweatersthen 't Is for speeulat;en. "When 'It Is two, three th'npsa coat, shoes, handbage h'ngss fr ends b> London Embassy. ercent .vsure they won't open 't. If they crack me, then it w'll be bad for WYNNE also. fraid1rave wr>>er. Qt But In case you don't meet hsm fcr some reason? St This can't happen. _l'm not go'ng cn TOY any O* No. We know that. St Nothing w'll happen to him. ry nice to WYNNE. He has nothimself 'n any way. Ot But at Customs they might make him jay duty. This cano? m He rhould say,n brlngng th'ngs fr'm London to people at the British Embassy 'n Londonthe'r things. andbag for one, shoes for another, etc." Ot And If h- Is asked for his courier documents? Or something? ust want to make sure that we don't have any trouble. Heaven fnr-b'dl What courier documents?

w'll mTgive the things to you later? Si Very simply. He willne suitcaseone with twotandard one. av- seen tl tw'ce already. That Is ell. aln-

crat on hla arm. Ot So yru take the su St No. Th*

porters take It. eet h'm at the plan*. The porters takethere. o to the captain en duty there and nsk hire to pass th's man quickly. H* will answer,r!". ill present my Wocument Trom the Committee. Th- second captain checks entryand stamps them. ill ask him to hurry him through. ill aay the car Is wa'tlrfi. illar, not from the Committee, but from one of my many fr ends win cars. 1 drive him to Ihe hotel. He willith h's suitcasee left 'n th* car. Hi Thai's not to bad. Qt No. It's alright. But we meal check this cut. ir . or worrj rg so muchill work well for another twe-three years. 'll run (defect). Qt Soould be better ou tTOk less and WYNNE took more? m One suitcase will be taken by WYNNE and one by me.

t Now another thing1 have another legend. Many In the Vrrbassy ar* oiling tne tr lake packages to the USSR for them. Ofill taks two, three, but w'll refuse the ethers. ill Ukt the REZIDENT'a, SHAPOVALOV'eSHAFOVALOVother ond sick father that he sends medlc'nes to.ill tal-e, but to thefll say,ave onelled w" th my th'ngs end the other w'll be full of packages from here." ave slready prepared them for this. They know already, who will Investigate cr1 ray delegation think? Thry will not come again 'n October. on't come again either. ave then ell bought (the delegates). Othsrv'ae, Ine hem will come. Ht retty ge-od dea. Si Departure by air 's5 hours;5ill be in Moscow. Prepare seven sh'lllngs and six pence per person for airport las. Is wr'tten down. The tickets are ordered. Ht He will need more money to complete h's purchase* so we had better g'vt h'n trme more. *t The watchill hoy will he 'n my rocket. Ot That Is no problem. St Ifouch my rlothes thenonunrnt te me, Ot What 's 'n the pocket '* rkay. It We wilt worV scne mere, then1 die,

t You toldd th'np yesterday "If yru have tr runwthrut tu'.teases and other property*. Ot YouITT long way tr rum (All talk.) Ht What was that? Ol He sa'd,av* t' run, where the hello to th" US or British Embassy?" old h'n in that case, run te the nearest one. (All laugh.) St ill go have dinner with ths delegationaven'trop of wine or vcdltaothing. ave 'n mind the occasion of our celebration. Ot Youood percentage ef your shopping done. St About one-half. Ot Well, that's not bad. I'm surprised yea had t'me to do that much. St We did it fast. Mrs. WYNNE wants to epend a lot of time picking things'out. WYNNE only has thes/receipts. Hehole stack of b'lUil submit them later, so that yru Mncwave done It preierly. Ot Well we ore not arguing obcut that. St eededruld need Soviet money, rr thingsan sell to fr'ends for Soviet rubles. on't have the right "ot t? bringweater, forto the wifeAPENTSOV. Perfumeranmey. l let them cay me the pr'ce 'f the art'cle 'n the CemmlflMon stores,ubles ubles according tr the old systemthat'sst in the Si-Tea. Ot no.

t There Is luO. St So yrund here. ft sc-'pt for thli? 0t You are eur rij-vorlter, not an agent. Withave receipts, etc, St Ho, we take rece pts from agents. Ot From agents, yesut you

fli

areifferent category. Si Aa long as yu have rem'nded we ofould like to state my opinion and then we won't return to thla subject. Inasmuch a? yru have madeecision, orade but yuan flee unexpectedly w'lh the family and leave -vrythlng. Leave things worth many thousands.l with them! Let them choke on them. a'der my EOD,ave beenr you much longer. My thoughts and opinions have spl't away long ago, Just to work with yu. Rut many Sovlot* have s who would Y'ke to (work). But luVas are noth'ng: It leluff. Action Is Important. 1

start-dtheay 't Is two years since.1

f nlehed there ceurs-s, the 1st of At thattartd pr-parng the mat-r'als, all this, all other matters. Almost two years have passedav* hadn my pocVet. anted to start work'ng for youht months ego. You know this very well.

QOy Sl Sine* there Is this syrtem of document evaluation, and 'r-ls Important forante well durlngfthe period that fate will have me liveheid. Ot Of course. He understand. Si f to state my opinion again, inasmuchon't have d'smonday father did not leave me anything In them'Tican Banks1 can defect lo youix to eight months, ear. ant to (def-ct) 'nears, 'n efder to do more with my position In the Oeneral Staff andg stationed nnd working 'n Moscow. But IthappencrMl comeltc you earlier. Gf Cf course, S| ould l'kn t* request the followngt That all my materials be evaluated separately. How? In any way! Oi Okay. Pt Conslder'ng of course,av^ already been given sums by yu already. Oi Cf course! Of cours"! Si It has tc be done very honestly. Whathat earned, Is what ho should have. '-rson's ability determ'nes what he ha* he Free lorld. The stupids Ihe street cleaner- the smarter -nr has h's little shop. This Is th- way It seems to me, obje-tIvnly. person) should gel what he earns. Gi Yes.

Si The woririd In advance dur ng thisonemportant. trlvd for l. ttained "t. idould regarding th*ss matters. lork on my new ass'gnments and yu will getorts) from there. h act'vely 'n all ways ondeeper level rf conp'rehens 'on. That isequestIf yu con* der the material lo be of no value or if II is only average, this ferent matter. But If som of themertain value ecently read 'n the papers that the Americans iald -ne million for a*ossier 'f seme sort cn Brarll or some southern country. W- heard this. A

fll

miltonl Now you will receive f'fteen reeru'ted agents who are recro'ted and working. This also haa some value to me, as a

01s! wt cmc tpJnncntha, then twilln my account. Qt Nol No! This Is not the

way it works. Si Thle will not aatlsfy nel That Ishis. 0: You do net understand. Si nhonestly. Oi of course not. We are talftlnc about a

i hought this through deeply todayrepared thlaN-fou are work ng with, tutear or two you nayrestation. Nrw people,on't Jmow, will contact-me. They won't know roe, or will onlybout inc. fron what you tell thorn. This Is Juat an eramplouppose ycur-notlon at work. Hi etter tell him that while this goes on we shall stay. Oi W* will be working with ym permanently. St And If yoaigh position! Ot No. Thia won't happen. St ill have to start prev'ng everything again. Ot Nol Nol Si W- have becomeonf-ssed everything lo yeu as one should. Ot We urd-rstsnd your pred cancnt. and we beth vetich thst wc w'llermanently. St Thank yu.

l.J S: Now the last thingdespite the greed of WRUSHCHEV, wcary limited In our payments to persons who hclp-us. t something of valueb-ut rackets, please pay the person- who have helped methat is ell. That 's stlill say about the subject. to yeu because ef politicalne. tarted werh'ng fer yu In Turkey. Ch'ck sll the ftes, my anonymous telephone (nllr'agalnstgsintt the O'earel ond against the regime. ot ready morally? as I Q; All thle will be considered. St hould b* considered tcencr soldiers,hat t'me Ot This will bs cons'dered; ion't worry. St ChecK nthe Turks have oil this recorded. ndersl-od me accurately. ase tr. th-n. This strengthens ny case. .It hflps me convince you, and it helpshigher suthorlt'es to understand thst from that periodwitched frm uncertainty I- defn't- actions. as afraid,rie, and uncertain many t'nes. ae on your side, Ol This w,ll bs ceneldrred. St ncoveredhe Turks. alled frcej thetho. t-ngewerc postponed. Latir, ot th'* command of theupported the nestings with the Turkish agent. aw Ihe surveillance. All this built up and 1CNCHF.NKC was expelled 'n three months. Who gave the leads! MI

it ore my departure 'n b.elephoned that the tnsrrual was stolen. Was lh-roall? The Turks know. It was rec-rded. owl Letell ycu that thereall -nNovember. d (In fnglish)alled, "Mister,

til

pleaec con* 'n and we w'll talk with yeu. (Inaid, "Okay,icket 'n my pocket already. eft via th" East, If PFEKE had been there at the t'meould have ccnlactrdas afraid t' talk to the other ene. Th-Anerlean Air Attache wasolonel,as afraid t" talk to hie assistant, despite the feetad good relations with them b'th. aa afraid. rusted PEEKE. If PEEKEn th-re then, and inould have ashed hits to "giv m* the address fnr future contact".

i Laterverything that wns happening In thet rut t'<ward the BALCHUK. For someas drawn there. ad the <nel"nation to approach the West. oreigners who were staying there; that Is tourist*.iculd stop then and tell then what the situation was 'n the Krrn-lln. What waa happenlngl trugglel Cff You can be sure that everything that happened before w'll be taken 'nto account.

raj) Si one over toould l'ke to livey. ave the right to live ery last years 'nanner? Oi What is even more 'nrortant you w'llinancial baa* w'th which to provide yurselfouse, car, etc. More Important* yru Hillood, honest, and worthwhile work Si ill give all ny strength tc this, all ny faith. ave th's system "of payment, then considerave worked aCt.'vely for you for two years, for two years. llocate my earningstwo years at the m'-nthly rate. Everyone must have h's own. ad aaVn.gr. he bankould sayon't need anything.

ot Thin la secondary t" me, believe ne,lso have toy family and myself. m concerned w'th Ishall be able to do this? Ot We understand andh vrur views. St ant to earnon't'ft. Don't say that (Subject's true nana) eod person, let's" whatever It la. on't want this. ant earnet. Ht Very well. Si 'd not*nay to yuH?re Is on* rochet, two. thlaode. This '* sm-tMng rise. hm everythlrbl m willing to vtfc with my heart, seal, head, henllh and strength. J: We understand your v'ews. St These ore ny v'ewa on In* matter. xcuse me for putting It thla way. Ht It lrlght. St m thinking y futur*. Yoa are very nice now wh'le talking lo me, but maybe you won't be here. That Ism afraid cfmaybe yu will be transferred. Ht No, this won't happen. erl Ot This will not bs. Si ill not detain you. ill go to dinner. n yrur gcoel regard now? Oi Yea. Si wear by my mother, child, conse'ence, my brain, my heartthai yru will nave nn evenpinion of me ahoutes higher* Ot u willhere0

Original document.

Comment about this article or add new information about this topic:

CAPTCHA