MEETING NO 5 IN LEEDS, 24 APRIL 1961REGARDING PENKOVSKY (PAGES 2, 4-11, 14-17,

Created: 4/24/1961

OCR scan of the original document, errors are possible

n Leeds

(Subject entered athours, having been metn tTrn-lcbby of the Hotel Melrcpole. He seTd In English that they had visited the Tlrms of Westall and Marshal and that WYNNE was new in the hotel shaving and gettlnc, himself ready to go dancing.) Gi How about the other members ef your S: Even ont of Aprilent to the Embassy and then met with yru, the nembers of my delegationad Intelligence mission assignments. In fact. It "would be very awkward lor them even te ask men pojng. They also knewm going to write uf anreport on themeturn and make my report on the trip. They even report te me. For example, when they were walking down the main street of London, Oxford Street, they saw WYNNE'S wife walking In the companyoung man. Earlier when WYNNE had arranged the Initial reception for us, his wife was present ao my people had met her. They told mehould know,old them that Jt'e none of their business and none of my business. ecall thatas sitting at the table with her she mentioned that she had two brothers. G: Very likely she was with one of her brothers,on't think you should pay any attention to that. S:hould report It to you. idn't bring any notesad no chance to write anything this ane to you now rightashed up.

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It However, let me begin by telling you what's onorget. First of all. In the Ministry of

Defense there are twenty-eight thousandti general "they are distributed as follows: Tbe General Staff on the Arbat, the three buildings on the Frunrenskaya-Naboreshnaya, the second house on Ped Square, and the Air ipr.ee Headquarters cn the Holshaya Plrogovskaya. This complex has twenty-eight thousand persons, including officers and civilians (VOLNC-TIAYF.MNYKH). Of the latter', by ny estimate, there would be twoalf to three thousand. This would Include cleaning and household personnel, as well as stenographers andl1lanlzed off leers.

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UJ Si Many GRU officers who still have potential value ve been retired at ho6 pension pay, depending onender length of service, and they are hired as civilians^.

Forave twenty-four calendar years of service

ut my total serviceL'r-OTf'YYE) Is twenty-seven years because my war service In he Finnish War and in World War II are given double va lue.

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cf pita, except that the cachets vary In tenni of the patsto go Into specific General Staff buildings. an enter all the buildings. But In the First1 have to be escorted from the reception desfc, and for the Tenthust make my appointment by telephonerrive".

(7J Si Nov,orget, the KGB complex otSquare including the large building aooveand this Includes the personnel of the Firstthere which keeps track of us ould saywith civilian employees, they have between five endthousand and six thousand workers. This Is nothink Itood

0. Si Now the At PARAT of the Central Committee has

expanded considerably and It Includes all kinds of sections.

They have Independent sections of light Industry, heavy

Industry, military and administrativelet me see,

their exact title Is sectors. That is what they are called.

There Is one for agriculture, electric power, and there is even

a commission which handles all personnel who are being sent

abroad." I* was also interviewed by the duty officer there before

1 "could go to England. Although the Committee is large, one,

two or three interviewersarticular prospective

traveller, depending upon the Importance cf the individual and

the mission. They brief people on behavior abroad and quest'on

them on what they expect to do. Then they fillop Secret form.

(S: The first page of this formeclarationhisX-Vlgn. It reads something likeSubject's truebout to go abroad, premise t" maintain the dignity of the Soviet Union as'the representative thereof, promise not to enter into any contacts or discussions which ere not authorized, and lo maintain state secrecy." On the opposite page are all vital statistics on the Individual. This includes his Party record. The whole document Is Top secret. The reason Is that according to our advertised democratic principles, this type of treatment would be Improper, ao they make It Top Secret. The pretense Ispecific ministry simply sends someone and the Central Committee has nothing tc do with It. But this Is absurd. Ofinistry mayerson to go abroad, but then everything Is checked minutely by the KGB. When their acqulercence Is obtained, the Central Committee commission takes this Top Secret obligation from the individual and then permission Is given for the Issuanceiplomatic jassport by the Ministry cf Foreign Affairs.

ptfrt timeshas at least(arsons

5: Th* other OBLAST headquarters and the groura ef iVTMy number ut. This also 'ncludesd-uart'-rs security battalion which guards all entrances, scfes.

etc. of the headmasters. This alto Includes the headquarters Ilicompany and quartermaster elements serving the head- arters 'taelf. We have eighteen to twenty-two military dis-

tr'cts, say twenty for an average. Therefore there would ben all of theeadquarters together w'th the gr-ups of forces. Let us now check theave here: The General Staff ef the Ministry ofhe Central Committee of the Ccrv-iunLrt Party 'T the:

Also add t" this the navBT

rerrTes and IhMr GAUdid not Include them In

At any rate Tor en average of this total emu; in Moscow, luni It together. Therefore this totalxperiencedfficers, end men of the he;.oVu*rtershe US'n must he destroyed, accrd'pi. to the planave |rrrpottda

(hi) It se cor.s'der rw and rej ort It to your headqWrter?. Wo doubl destruction has been considered hy then as en Inevitable action In cate of war. Perhajr. my crasi' of the whole problem may be Inexact and rrou'rev much sdjust-ifntreor'snlstl'-n. dy t"ny a rrent t" blown:en In Pabscctf (any ar-'gr^ent which nay be given tr ne).andr'enced hoads willcone uiufonave offered.

hy Ri ould li be to fupcest another possibility. orWlhlny thate prepared sc'rntIflea 1Iv. Your rclentlst* nay cont'der this. The mine* w'th TNT eUmicsh-uld be concealedrenrle, such as ths slanderd Moscow refuse cans wh'ch can be foundvery house entrance}, alse button should he jreiaredthis. h-uld b- o'm*for the des'red detonation time at the botton ofon which Is leaded With an atomic mine. The naterlalr should be obtainedoviet st-re so that these cans resemble Soviet cars. he it erared moterfal cant by meansomatlc |eckagei and jacfd to me through dead Then, assumeen concentrate all th r? 'n the barment of mv DACHA. arf oran haul either In IO>teasel rr belter yet 'r Ihe trunk ef ny car.

' Jl ssigned Ihe n'r-slon of blowing ui venhl" nay retirefifteen nines. ould run nrounri and rot all these In the prrper placet. It nay reoulre several tro pet thenaced. ould rur. had-

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(Jk) St The destruction ofroup of military and yTeaders as are Included Inentioned, would cause Immediate capitulation. Of course thist get KHRUSHCHEV who may heACHA of nls. He has three^ One Is near the Moscow University, another la on thehosse beyond Kuntsrvo, and the third one Is near Dmltrlyevo. At any rate, the whole Party ATPARAT and the General Staff canbe destroyed. The Praesldlum Is In session all the time. Irrespective of where It site. etopy of thla Internal telephoneit_ateady. Even though you are Interested In nenes ond patronymics, at least yru will have all the Initials here.

G; Weot of questions here we would like to Even though yu may not answer all of them, Just explain whatever you can. S; Very wall, but first let me answer the two questions asked me yesterdayid not answer. Yesterday yeu asked mc about these nozzles or fuel Injectors (FORSUNKfl). In myrote up very carefully and exactly In engineering terms everything there was abouton't know If you're testing me about this Item, butsn say about them is that the principle Involved is for these types of nozzles which by the way are considered te be very reliableto feed the exact mixture cf fuel Ingredients into the combustion chapter of the rocket. These__noztles must_feed. In.such an exact way that no overheating occurs which could cause_premature_Iflnltlon prior to getting the precise feed Into the combustion chamber, that Is, to permit the exact per second quantum of fuel to enter the crmbustlon chamber. Failure to do this will cause an Jncorcect_thrust throughout the'activeperiodrocEet trajectory. idn't understand what yu were asking me about exactly. Bat this isnow, end further thanannot g've scientific datam not an engineer. Gt You explained this well, butall that was asked of yuj was toype of fuel Injector which was the ball-type and you did that clearly.

y>rd mates of the target. In the past ft would takeflan slxdays to complete this but now they haveques "Tor completing Tfie topographic sjiryey_In two days.most complicated process la to testthe /fleets so that they will follow the Indicatedsrre are four basic tests, horizontal tests. In the test areathen additional tests on the launching pad Itself.

62, Gt Were there any naval officers or air forceIn your class? Si .Yes, there were. 0: What would be the proportion of these to others ln the army? St They were fewer. There were either eight or ten air force officers and there wereew naval men. But there were also engineers from the Knybyshev Academy which la also In Moscow, not far from the artillery academy. The engineers^are responsible for construction of shelters ande part itTdna' at thesites. But there wereew engineers In this course. Gt Would you calleneral course? St Yes. Gi Can't you remember any nf the names of the faculty chiefs? St | write this all up, b't I'll Iry to tell you now thesean remember. uggest that you give me the.names of all. Soviet artillery men In the DDR and I'll tellnow.

vinery, and that po" .wisery which 's still retained. Hero of thenion, Gen. Mayor Pf_Artlllery Ivan KUPIH at one time was the deputy to the ChIef"of"Arl'Illery in Xvov, the Sub-CarpathianDistrict. For the past two years he has been the commanderrtillery of one of the armies stationed In the DDR. That was the armored forces army. Now he has Just been assigned as the deputy to Gen. Polk. FRCLOV who Is theof all Sovietofr.bn. asfocket "artery_or_ conventt jj lery.. ItI""ur,de> ore cr>nr:an<J. He . <n charge of nil depots, flr'ro "ranges, ordnance shops, etc. and he has his own GAU forall this.

(6Uy G: When you mentioned GRYZLOV who was sent to the DDR to organize these new rocket unitstn whom will they be sub-rrd'nate? Will they be under FROLOV, or w'll they be turned over to the Germans? St No, the Germans are receiving rockets

63. St old you aboutolonel who Is there now. There ere several Soviet armies In the DDR. Cne army Is composed of armored forcea. The commander of each army has his deputy for artillery. This artillery commander hasViIs ataff through which he commands rocket artillery, and that portion of rifled artillery which is still retained. Hero of the Soviet Union, Gen. Mayor of Artillery Ivan KUPIN at onedeputy to the dhTaf of *

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Germans have their cwn artilleryare training them, but the Germanstactical rochet units. We have beenlong time now, and now they are receivingstates that they should have rockets In theirendhere are four groups of forces ofare many countries of Peoples1 Democracies. advisorsll headquarters of the armies of thePeoples' Democracies,o not count these.

training units for rockets are being trained by our

Si now that In cur Soviet forces of the GSFG, here-^fe exactly four brigades of rocket artillery. Twohese are designated as atomic weapon rocket brigades and he other two are normal rocket brigades, thathlve. Thisn Soviet hands and will net be given to the Germans. Rut the countries of Peoples* Democracies will have their mcket units trained by us and they will be armed with rochets, that Is, with the exception of Albania. Fo-sl My_ CASTFIO hasad some roeketa ^lso. but [ ppfrDo (he flfnVJT' STviel GYduf cf Forces have rocket hrIgades of this type or not? Si They do, hutesseron't know tc what extent. m glad yu ask these questions since yu are teaching me what Is of importance fcr me to find rut about.

66. Gt Can yeu tell me what type of rockets were given to the Germans7 S: an. j, and now they are ajlvlng theand 'h addition, all types_of free rockets such as LUNA, rWRS, KCRSHUN, etc.. G: They already have these such as3 and? St Yes, they have all these, possibly as many asypes,on't know Jn what quantities. They are pre par'no, tactical launching, sites and they have already trained cadres to whom live rochets are being given. Oi How about atfmjc warheads? St No. These are not given. All we have there are theseome storage depots for our two brigades, which are hidden somewhere and are under the control of GRYrLOV.

67. Si Anothernow thereol. Georgiy WpnoSHILOVvhr. graduated one yearid,rcsi tne Sec end Artillery School In Kiev. After the war heenior lecturer at the Dzerzhlnshly Artl1lery Academy, In the tactics department. ave heard that he Is the

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S: Anyway, the situation thereery unpleasant ror our forces. For any relationermanoldier pets shirred home at rnce end Is punished. In addition, they have cut down the monthly allotment of marks given to officers.as Inend wasira perould buy all kinds of things,id. rought themd them ond traded them. Although there are all kinds ofn the DDR, the new.reduced allotment In marks permits the officers to buy very little of value. Anyway, these are ma friends who tell me of these condltlogs,^

p2J St They always call me when they come.to town. Gen. rtTJplH stays at VARENTSOV's house when he comes here. His daughter has now given birth to twin boys so VARENTSOV Is the jrood grandfather rf two five-year "Id boys, lso have to bring then little gifts. ust because when Gen. RUTIN goes to Oermany he bring?oy for my daughter. VAPENTSCV's third daughter Is Natasha. She Is In the third grade with my daughter, Gal'na, who is about two months older than she la.

erlena's husband, Leonid,aptain snd he Is new praduaT'np from the Cc^ra_nd_AiLtJ_lJcry Academy at Leningrad. Frlor to that he had served fn the DDR'eutenanU VARENTSOV ar-arengrd for him tc go to the academy. He comes from Taganr-g, snd rightan't remember his last nome. He hopes to go hack to the DDnraduattng/Tul he Is well off since VARENTSOV gives hisift cfld ruhles per month. The boys ore naTred Sasha and Sererha. The marshal lets them stay at his DACHA with his wifendhey gn to Leningrad they stayommon ofartnent. e marshal has two servants| flower gardens, and his own personal car.

AhJ S: Yerlena Is spoiled since her father gave her every-th'he poor Nina who shot herself andurled when the marshal wasoscow hospital. idn't tell him anything until it was all over. Heery beautiful first wife, Anya, who died of tuberculosis. Later he married his present wife, Yekaterlna KARPCVA. He whisked her awayeningrad doctor to vhen she was married at the time. It was when VARENTSOV was recuperating and KONEV was demanding his earliest return to the Front, the First Ukrainian Front, as chief of artillery, that Nina's husband wasogether with two others Who were 'n black marketing In Lvov. It was proven that VARENTSOV had no personal Interest in the black market deal whatsoever, but he was accused of political shortsightedness 'n allowing this t" go on under his nose. He was called before the Minister of Defense who reprimanded him. However, the Minister said, "Let u* forget thla whole matter; gn back te the front." Three months later VABENT'OV received the Merc of the Soviet Union.

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Si When he was going to the front hyccom-1m, and It wasold him about the unfortunate .filiation with his daughter. He was emotionally upset. Vhen we arrived in Kiev we learned that CrER rTfAKHOVSKIY had been killed at the front. He waa one of the army commanders of the First Ukrainian Front. Heery close friend of VARENTSOV's. This was In Marchli. When we arrived In Lvov he visited the cemetery once and never returned. Later he gave me five thousand marks and said to order the best possible monument In Vienna to-place en her grave In Lvov. Anyway, that Is the storyood friend of yours, that Is, heood friend of yours Indirectly, through ne. m going to buy hin an expensive watch and Inscribe It from my wife and myself. an photograph this watch and sendicture.

Cj&J Gt How we hive some questions based onave us that we would like to clear up. St ried to present everything as honestly and completelyould. Let ne finish one other question. You asked meot Into GNTK. inished everything on VARENTSOV.

(il) St On the 5th of0 GeneralNotet DepuVy^Xhlef of GRU Personnel) called for me. He said, "Hera Is the Information submitted to us by the KGB an your father". By theould appreciate It If you would check to see If my father is still alive, since he disappearedrace. We know that there was an encirclement at Rostov but It would not be difficult tc have escaped from there to Taganrog. Gi We willheck. St Secondly, possibly through yourchannels yru may find out If anybody had reported on me about my father. Thirdly,mayhat there were aome records In the German archives which fell into the hands of the TOR and which they have been analyzing for years. Our people don't know what to do with me about this natter. They can openly discuss me without arresting me but If they d'd not giveassport to come hereould haveun for It somewhere, possibly toEmbassy. Gt If your father is alive and la either In the US or In England, this can be quickly checked. St on't believe that he Is alive but please check anyway and also let me know If yea find out who Could have reported on me.

no) Anyway SHUMSKIY called me and said, "Your fatherhrrn Army officer endigher education and your* grandfatherudge In Stavropol." My uncle, once removed, was also mentioned. He wasommanderVO regiment In the Far East, and at one time he was also In prison because of his background. His name Is Valentin

Arttonovlch (last name same as Subject's). After he was released from prison he was then the Chief of Staff ort Armyng the war. Then he was the rommander foffrjh Guards Army, no Then at the end of the war he was sent to the Far.East end he participated In the campaign against the Japanese Kwantung army. He remained there after that and became the Chltf of Stafr under MAL1NOVSK1Y. When MALINOVSKIY finally was brought tn to replace ZHUKOV as the Minister of Defense he left my uncle out In the Far East since he knew the area well. He avoids contacting meo the same since we do not wish to contaminate each other with cur backgrounds.

79. St Whenonfronted me with all this he ordered me to write up my version of It. old himould only writead always written before about mybut possibly my mother could add some supplemental My mothertatementubmitted It but they Immediately stopped my processing to go to India as the PE71DENT. hould have gone as the military attache but Instead they sent some general who has no diplomatic or other background. He has no higher education but heood war record. When this wasad no assignmentonth, then two,as worriedas'the GRU reserves. This all happenedad finished the advanced rocket course, lt was very luckyad been to these courses,ould never have gotton this Information for you. You would lhave had Information only about the GRU.

S: as sitting worrying during these two months and rTelt that the big break In my lire was going to takead already stolen or copied the material rrom the academy. Thead done this wasas already distrusted. They would not return me to my pest In Turkeyad this affair with General SAVCHEMKO who had also made charges against me. elt Insulted by this and wanted to gn to Turkey very badlyide circle of acquaintances, Including Colonel PEEKE, within the diplomatic colony. ad already made up my mind to approach you, but was biding my timeas taught to be careful. anted to collect this materialhought it would be useful In the futuread the opportunity of approaching you.

(0U St ecame the sergeant major ef the classas the senior colonel. There were six or eight other colonels In the class. The rest of them were lieutenant colonels, majors, and thereew captains. opied everything word for word but had to use abbreviations. Later at home 1

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out all abbreviations so that you would understand them. The only placeid any short-cutting was in describing certain launching site ejnijrnient because after describing one Inthe other types were aimllar.

S: as doing this forear, and then oTTe dayas the duty officer, the POWERS Incident took place. old the students about this. as the dutyad'all the room keys but not the safe keys, because the safe keys are submitted and placedealed box. At thatasn't thinking of opening safes, but now if you can prepareimilaran open safes. Thatade my rounds and took turns with my assistant, sleeping. During thisad some blank cable paperopied down the code names from the Red Book. Later atyped them up in the form Inave them to you. Of course they could trace me by my typewriter, but If It went to that extent,Vould be shot anyway. as* nervous while copyingas alone at the time. At anypecial high-ranking duty officer sucheneral from the first Directorate of the General Staff could come In. There were all kinds of special caBles that could come In at night, but particularly dealing with Information about your overflights, new when your planes were over Kiev.

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S: as the duty officer during the night from>tre first of May to the second of May. The tour begins0 hours. No soonerccept the duty when In came the commun'cat Ion saying that an Amerl lot had been taken Into custody, and they describednow exactly" when FOWERS_was flying near Sverdlovsk, the poor fellow had the misfortune of runningattalion of He did not fly directly over the position, but slightly to one side of it and was already being followed The pilotieutenant. The battalion on the groundri alert because of the holiday, and they opened fir el They were firing a" defi" "Barrage since they were alertedoat'le aircraft was flying overhead.

Si No direct hits were made, butlight damagS""te- the tail and wing assembly. The damaged parts were not shown at the Moscow exhibition and your intelligence personnel should have spotted that. He was within the radius of explosion end es the result of the shock wave from the explosion, the plane was damagedr POWERSoncussion. now what he reported to his parents or others, but while falling he blacked out several times. He was

not conscious when he parachuted to earth nor when everything on him was seized. The claimsirect hit were, of course, absurd. eported this to you already cn the twelfth cf August of last year, as well as on the.

Si FOVERS was brought to Moscow by plane and the KOB at"gTHfi'l' have an English Interpreter.. as"sup-posed to talk to nJtnas'thi httTVwho had some sort of understanding of Englishad already reported the Incident to some generals. If they had notOB Interpreter et the lastould have been the first one to Interview POWERS. They called upasn't needed and the KOB chief, this young fellow who was the KOMSOMOL chief, and who replaced SEROV, SHELEPIN, wanted to make the report to KHRUSHCHEV personally. So he got an interpreter and picked POWERS up. But military people knocked POWERS down end POWERS wasiconsIdered toilitary man. Therefore, he should have been turned over to us, the General Staff. But the' KG3 seized him, took him to Dzerzhlnskly Square, and made their own report. He was being treated medically since he was still In shock. You could have traded POWERS for this MELIKH whom yeu were Inurry to release.

: How Is ft that SEROV had no Influence? S: SEROV has nWe, Iferen't for the fact that he Is remotely related to KHRUSHCHEV, he "would have been shot for his past association with BERIYA. He wasosition of minister, but hehance to save his skin ond was made chief of GRU. SEROV Is not the most brilliant man. He knows how topeople, shoot them, and Imprison them. Although he has studied tho 'ntelllgence situation, POGOV, as his deputy, does most of the executive work. The other Armenian, MANSUROV, Is simply In charge of the household and administrative functions.m glad to have the opportunity ofhetory about POVER5j. If he had arrived Inalf hour earl]er,ould have been the one to Interrogate him, even though the translation may have'been cockeyed.

Si If we had only made contactould have told you all about MELEKH, that heoviet spy and an Intelligence officer, and you certainly should not have let him go. You could have sentenced him to be shot, and you could have traded him for POWERS. When the original bail money was put up KHRUSHCHEV made the decision, not SEROV. It, even though It was later returned. SEROV canecision only for

68. S: ^HTSjIENBOreat deal when he was chief of intelligence. Heot of wise reforms. en

elevator Installed. However, heisagreeable man and waa I not generally accepted by other members of the General Staff

becauseTXMENKOavorite of STALIN'e bock ln STALIN'adays. He did not fight en the front, but visited on the various fronts ond collected decorations. After STALIN and -

BEP1YA, SHTEMENKO was reduced In rankwo star genejaj,^

Only after he was made chief of the GRU did he receivehird star. Of course heood administrator and he did

set up this sabotage school. Under SEROV, the directorate and

section chiefs do all the work.

S: On the fifth of May after POWERS was knocked down, KHRUSTTCHEVuspension of agent operations toossible flap. At thatas running an agent aboutill tell yeu everything. He was obtaining data on electronic computing machines,hird party and we were getting tTie 'material via dead drops. ad to stop this. There were many_ protests about dropping scheduled meetings end other contacts, but It had to be done. The FEZIDENT In Pakistan decided on his own te pick upead drop which was already loaded In order to avoid possible compromise to the agent. He did thl? but was severely reprimanded'by his superiors at GRU, even though he did the right thing. Thus KHRUSHCHEV ordered cessation of agent contacts during the period when he was going to capitalize on the POKERS incident despite the damage it did to the agent nets. That'save to say. m reedy to answer your questions.

firJhem hay.

in inrse shown In nreaei' No, not all of them. I'll tell FicTrones: They were the JR-l,,the OR^7? m checking these from the: HoV-it lheF-5? Si This was not shown In tbe parade. Gi Were you ever at the parade? St No,as at the training areas where everything Is prepared for participating In the parade in proper sequence. This Is off Lenlngradskly Shoase. The whole jaradc Is rehearsed by sections under the direct command cf the unit commanders. Gt How long has It been since these rockets were placed In thef the troops? S: xisted even in STALIN'S time, but it was not fully developed nor was It in mass production. Theae others have been In production relatively recently. ould say that they began to give them to troops about four or five years ago.

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unit? St

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G: What Is theocatIon of thes. rockets? la It to the front or the army, or what unlti

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ease of war, the units whloh operate rocket artlllarj of Urr caliber, long. the battalions which are part ofimilarthose nov deployed ln the vooda near Moacov, not tha PVO,*fhe strateglc long range rockets, will be eoamanded by the Chief of the rocket forces of the General Staff, as la now established. These tactical weapona will be ln the hands of tbe ground forces Commander and through bin VARENTSOV, and their dlraot sub-units suchront, like FROLOV'a la Goraany and his artillery of tha front, than the artillery of the army. The battalions will be parte of regiments which In turn will ba partrigade. Xn case of war, tha aray artillery will hare these weapona under Its coaaand. they will be exclusively of ths conventional type because the employment of atonic weapons will ba tha decision exclusively of tha Central Committee of the Coeamnlst Party through the Ministry of Defense. The atonic weapona will be deployed la suoh locations that, whan their use has been authorized, the weapons will not be far frow the units whloh could eaploy thea.

The next question of course will be difficult foranswer, but It states, Do you know of any aotnallocatloaswarheads are atored, or do you have any knowledge wherecenters are located? S: Ofo not know andfind out only by chance conversation. There are,avapoints for atomlo warheads.In tha Kllntsy area, but where

i do rot knov, Generally, the holiow_jy?cJieta are stored separately ln entirely different areas and only when they are to be used with atomle warheads are both they aa well as the warheads brought to sons forward aasenbly point.

Xn your course at tha artillery academy, were thethatudied or were they werely referred to? 8: Xtn'lsupplement. leodel of this rocket, butnotross-sectional font. Therote about weeme by BUZJHOV. 0: However, are they included ln the T: Yea, they certainly are. G: Did you ever see theTea,ave, and it is not in serial production. It Isour laboratoryare seen itanvas cover. Iby pacingatinets lt to be betweenndigger rocket than the Rr2l. G: What unitrocketa be assigned to? 3: will they ba ln brlgadss Justother rockets? 0: Ware these shown at the parade? 8: Ko,not. Just an old experiaental model ofas.shown. test area Is in south Siberia. The canter ia" Ka pus tinthe impact is Kazakhstan.

94/ St ave an excellent source of information on this area cajrnfln whoriend" et him in the following way. Tha"MnvswlfVcameaide-de-camp and said that her husband had graduated fron the Dxorzhlnskly Artillery Acadeny and was being assigned to Kapustin Tar. He had served thereunior officer capacity prior to having attended the Academy. The womantudentodical school and wanted to remain in Moscow to finish her studies. In-'

addition, she would have to g've up her room whichice cne, since this was allotted to the family while the husband was at the academy. Her request was for help In getting her husband transferred to Moscow. His name Is Vladimir KA5HIH. He Is an cnglneer-captaIn.

Jell thisOV. It seems to me,iking

P'"ttbU ln1'f'Ctlonrl'd w'lhofficer's wlf. In Leningrad, and the husbandcandal as the result of which

.TJIk? wtyd- t weren't for VARENTSOV he probably would have been thrown out. Hellon't know

tl th J it tnl' lad>*but Itw.on pra c

tmx^KtlL?rml9 Mvefr,end8'

and sald thalcaptain should be

tlnJ^eJii " workln9the chief of this accep-

T.lhe ,ncom,nS class ofDA. aw,y ^tstandlng. tudent at

the academy he had even.Invented some device which was of

? "speciallted

T merely study language,

wouldery desirable thing toUV* an Intelligence officer and try

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.arrived In Moscowls't and with

wis'lS?olonei: and *laUon commander who provrded^Tnlstra-

tlve and housekeeping support. There are generals there whorocket testing in various rategorlcs. ft>*re arecheck various Instrunents- and KASHIN, ihongTn'er!"ct,on there. Of cours* he know? whll

found; n to ny hone and

Mm : off'c"r- He asked me to help end I

ha moIm! li tell'gence offrcer. H- said 5chH rW h*andidate for'the !. .clhar na wm accepted orI don't kn-w llWVt IZhc wera not "copied fn theould J. Merv f the Dnrrh'nskly tB^lSTR-recces E* ^rnbabTyTraccepted by

cuss1ons with him about what Is going on

a^oVt^.r" 3'theliesoff their planned course.

now how to ask him about the vital details which you areIn. ill surely get him Into one academy or the other. He"Will' be my good Informant since he hes much respect for mem doing all these favors for him. ill get all the Information out of him on Kapustln Yar. Oi What Is his full nane? Si He Is Vladimirhink his patronymic Ish, butT am not sure. It le hard to say where he jwlll dtfus'the most good. At the MDA he can't tell meuch except the names of some of his classmatesan get Information on the GRU myself. At the. Dterrh Inskfy acad_eray_ he may be able to tell me of new rocket developments. Anyway, so much for that.

99- Gi Let's check the time. It may not be good for you to go home too late. Ht Ask him if there were many people on the streeet when he went home last night. The question Is going In and out of the hotel. Gi You may be conspicuous If you come home late. What Is your program for tomorrow? will you have timeeeting with us7 Si Tomorrow we're going tn lookachine factory, but then werogram in the evening. G: etter explain our future plans to you. Wecannot meet the day after -tomorrow since we both will be travelling to Birmingham, but you are goingifferent town (Sheffield) on the day after tomorrow before going to Birmingham. Will you have timehort meeting tomorrow? S: an meet with you tomorrow during the day. Gi At what time? S; inute. Let me figure It out. (Note: Subject studies his schedule.) St The more often we meet the better since we can work outds of details that need ant to know your views because that Is Important for me

G: Plan It tn be secure because we don't want you to do anything risky. St on't want to take any chances either. Even If you give mc the assignment to blow up the Moscow Military Districtust make plans to move my family and whateverwn out of the areaive so close. We must meet tomorrow before the delegation group returns for the evening schedule. ill come here at0 hours. Gt Very well, and we will not detain you very long since you must get back In time to have dinner with them. ittle time new yet. We don't want to keep you very long. You haveot of these questions systematically. Let ua Just finish the few we have left.

G: How with respect to the,K Are these rockets already Issued to your troops outside of the USSR? St on't.know. now that it is planned to give all kinds of rockets"to satellite countries by the end of

Gi How long would you say that these rockets have been "Issued to troops? S: After their final tests at Kapustln Yar and the last modifications were completed, they went into maas production. ould say that therst went Into mass production three years ago and these have been issued to troops since then. l Is more recent. ould say about two years ago, about the time when KHRUSHCHEV first bragged about them to NIXON. Gt This is fine. You have answered the other questions on VARENTSOV earlier.

S: ould like to ask you If prior to my departurewill have worked cut the role WYNNE will play and the varioushould make contact at receptions in Moscow? Gt All this Is now being worked on and we certainly willompleted plan for you before yout When willeet in London again? Gt We will have this short meeting tomorrow as planned. The day after tomorrow we will all be Travelling In different directions. On Thursday, we will be all fn Birmingham. We will stayotel near yours and will give you the details trcorrow and we will set the timeeeting In Birmingham. On Friday we will all be bach in London and we w'll meet there at the Hotel Mount Royal. J: If case for some reason he can't make It tomorrow, ahould we not g've Jilm the details on Birmingham? Ht That's alright. If he missesan pass him the Information on Birmingham through WYNNE.

flOJJ S: Mr. Harold, what Is the status of myovernment representative? ant toofficially. It doesn't have topecific lord,don't expect to meet the Queen. G: Be assured. Thistaken care 1

lOh/ St ill need some more money. The fifty pounor^you gave me Is not sufficient. aven't spent them yet,ill need moreave many thingsust purchase. Gt Do you need the money right now, or do youomorrow, or do you want to wait until &ou return to London? St lt can waitet te London. ave already notedew Items there that my wife asked me to get. ant you to realize that all of theselan to purchase are perfectly logical for me to have. In fact, they can be obtained through cur commission stores In Moscow, butery high price. In my status it la entirely proper and normal for me to have certain things, ln fact,epresentational basis Itandatory. Even when I returned fromarge suitcase full of thing*. Nothing was said all, and there waa no customs check. m returning officially with the Committee and there will he no trouble at all. (Note:

-ong Itemised group of purchase requests. mall notebook full of them Including outlinesres of his wife and daughter.) Gt Do you plan to buy ,hlng here? S: an go out with WYNNE. They havehings here and they are much cheaper. Oi How much do youow? S: Do you have fifty pounds with you? (Note! H. -jssed Subject fifty pounds.) Si riease decide this question regarding WYNNE, and think of the otherave made.

Are you considering my DACHA? G: We areell your requests but whether It's purposeful for you toACHA now or not Is not so evident. St ould like to know what value Is being (laced on the materialave submitted. Each one should have what one earns. You told mc that you haveonthly salary for me form very grateful. If you had set It at half thatould not have complained. mradesman, to bargain. must try to attain something. m sure that you are In the same situation.

fl06y Si m thlnk<ng that everyone maylack day. Foras thinking cf thisesterday. It could even happenould have died, and In theay perish In some way. Inequest that my wife and mother be approached, but In only one way since they have no Inkling ofm doing norstablished any plans through any border for their defection. Simply sayave withheld one fact from them. Say thai prior to the death of my father, he had set uprust fund or left valuablesoreign bank andm no longer among the living this sum of money Is available for my wife. At least this way my daughter ray have some subsidy until she Is grown up. Ht We will do this. Si My wife is totally unwitting ofm doing and she has been brought up under comfortable circunstances as the daughtereneral. However, she knows what deceit and lies exist In our way of life, end she was very much impressed by Western life when she was In Turkey. She filled out this whole notebook with purchase requests.

S: By the way, please prepare everything asm to leave on the second of May. ave not yet received the authorisation for extending our trip so we must play safe. ill know the answer as soon as we return to London. lnoxant you to plan on possible radio contact. Gi We have planned all this and we willpecialist there who not only will train you In using the Mlnox but will even check the actual frames that you take. Si To be honest with you, the lastlnox wasas In Turkey and that was five years agoon't feel sure of myself.

#5

We must work out plans on how to maintaincase WYNNE does notisa to go to Moscow. mayossibilityay be dismissed from This Is not likely, but It must be considered as Then, what do we have? We have thiswith the children walking through the park. We alreadyon the use of the telephone. Gi All this will beand worked cut with you In London. We will not waitlast day, either. Si ope so much that they extenduntil the Sixth, since It Is an advantage to stay longer

In London and have more meetings together to work things out. In the meanwhile when WYNNE arrives you can either send anything with him or not, as you see fit1essage.

ave already prepared material at home tohim which includes the details of the whole agent net which

1 once ran. sk you please not to take action against them because lt will reflect against me at once, particularly this corporal In Ceylon. Oi To hell with hlml Don't you realize that we would not risk your security for something that Is relatively worthless like that? We will tcuch no one. St However, he should be made Ineffective. Maybe you could have him transferred to some other place under some legendary pretext, possibly as If therehreat to hla wife or children. G: We are not going to foci with this and Invite any risk to you. St Of course If he falls to appearcheduled meeting with our case officers, they may- think that something Is wrong.

"Write this down, Colonel GRECHKO, with coverengineer. Is the REZIDEKT In Ceylon. He was formerly InPersonnel Directorate and somehow he wormed his way Into Heomplete fool. He does not know English. Ithe name of the second case officer who Is there now, but

he Is the one who replaced ALEKSANDROV, the former case officer. He had been the Second Secretory In Ceylon, but now he Is working In the Fourth Directorate In the Direction of Ceylon working group for officers where he is an ordinary officer. If this corporal did not show up as scheduled,hreat to him wero detected, SEROV would demand thet the agent's personal file be examined. My name would ahow up at once as havingormer directing case officer at headquarters. Gt Stop worrying. We are not going to get you Into trouble. S: Youant to help you, and at the samem afraid of this. For example. If the whole agent net in India were surfaced. It would alienate our government's relations with NEHRU. But givehance to get out of the country before this is donehow you how tn do It. Ot After you areecure position abroad, then we may consider doing something and we will do this with your advice.

S: ivereat deal about our Illegal REZ1DENTURA which Is located In New York. In myelieve this BEZIDENTURA Is composed of our GRU Illegals. They were brought In thereTAZHIROVKAhird country. Judge for yourself and seem not right. For example, why do you think SUDIN Is now being sent to Turkeyounsellor? He is being prepared to go now. We have not yet cracked the Turkish nut. Our agent operations there were not effective. He, specifically. Is being sent there since he had always worked on Illegals operations. (Note: In fact heAPRAVLENIYE chief In the Illegals Directorate.) He Is toEZ1DENTURA there composed of Illegals from third countries. m positive of this. now that those case officers who followed me to Turkey were not able to accomplish anything.

0: How many Illegal PEZIDENTURAs did you aay there were in New York? Si aid only that there was one in New York, that is, an Illegal PEZIDENTURA, and there Is an additional RE7IDENTURA which is legal since the case officers therein use the UN positions for cover. G: Do you know the GRU people who are in the UN? S: an find this out very eaally,on't know offhand.

(fly G: Do youYAK0V7 S: No,ncwS-Denis PCLYAKOV. He was in the USA twice and he has taken ever delegations. Justm do'ng now, for the GNTK. He was also the Interpreter, but In myas afraid that they (the British) might not giveisa. H: If we hadn't known who he was, he might not haveisa, St ealise that you-probably had something to do with this since ycu wanted me to come. Our people at GRU were pleased because they assumed that you did notas an intelligence officer.* Why did you giveisa when you know he Is an Intelligence officer? H: That ig question. St nderstand, it Is none of my business to know. on't even want to know. My people ot GRU thought that if SHAPOVALOV got throughisa,ould also.

(j) St ould fulfill GRU missions while heading this Tre-fegation. equest you do all you can to help me fulfill the missionsxplained to you. ill-write up an effective report. eed from you Is help In Introducing an English acquaintance to the local case officer here in London. All that has to be done Is to maintain someand possibly your man would pass some sort of material oncehile. The material can be worthless, and It would be good If your man would accept money encehile. There Is no need for the man to accept recruitment. All he has to do Is to string the case officer along until such timeefect. This

Isisualize it. If necessary the man could be recruited, but he has to work properly. Otherwise Jt would be traced back to me as my man, and If they smelled provocation, they would put me away so you would never see me again.

Gt Now, all of the problems you have raised In all operational plans are now being worked on and as soon as we return to London, we will accomplish everything. S: 1this perfectly. ealize that you have more experience and scientific approaches and better headsave, evenave been Jn Intelligence3 excepthort Interlude thanks to being contaminated by RUBENKO. (Getting up to leave) lt would be well If you could get WYNNE In contact with meouple of months. He doesn't need to be trained or told anything. He can be unwitting, but of course he knows who you are andm In contact with you. H: We will take care of all that. S: WYNNE may not be the sharpest man or the wealthiest, but he treats me very well and with respectould say that heood patriot and an honest man. G: Take your key. Si ould have all of you In Moscowonth. 0: ill take you down out of the hotel and walk you to the corner. (Subject left0 hours onpril)

Original document.

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