Created: 4/23/1961

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Meeting!t Leeds, England,l

I. By prearrangement Jn London Subject was to walk Into the lobby of the Hotel Metropole In Leeds during the evening of1 whenever he could conveniently find free time from his delegation. The delegation was staying at the Oueen's Hotel only two blocks away. et Subject at the entrance to the hotel lobby0 hours and escorted him to Roomhich had been prepared for audio recording and which was occupied by Harold.

Tap* Deglnsi

2. <As soon ss Subject arrived It- said that he waa almost hospitalized because he had stomach pains. After visiting British firms In th* Leeds area Subject, with his delegation, stoppedmall restaurant and Subjecthole liter of cold beer. esult of this he developed pains which were some sort of cramps.) St ad an appendicitis but since they examine all Strategicpersonnel and GRU every threenewhould have no symptoms of this. TIA&KHNOV (GRU doctor) examined ne. You probably know him. uffered for about two hours and WYNNEoctor. The doctor saidid not have an appendicitis but If the painshould be hospitalized In Leeds. He diagnosed my pains as an extreme kidney Irritation due to my havingarge quantity nf cold beer quickly.. eci alright now exceptittle weak from the anxiety of this ordeal. as terrified about goingospital since the people bach home who were not too willing to have me go In the first place would probably criticize me for doing this deliberately They would say, "Why did he have to goospital In England when we have adequate facilities here?" eelhthink we centt le -whl le.

approved for release

32 _


till draw this up for you In detail and show you how easy It is to place charges In adjacent buildings, even In the GASTRONOM. omb could be disguisedasket of fruit. (Subject then described the layout of the GRU buildings.djacent to the POLYKLINIK of the Ministry of Defensea three-story red brick buildingand particularly the pass bureau where packages, suitcases add the like must be checked In and left In custody while one visits the GRU offices.) S: An old lady takes care of this and there Isoilet there which Is littleuitcase could easily be left there since the toilets are In locked compartments. Then one could simply leave snd It would be hours before anyone would notice It. Many packages are left overnight and during the day, officers even leave bags of groceries therek up when they go home. imple round metallic tag Is giveneceipt and thoof the tag Is chalkeduitcase until It Is picked up. This wouldood place toharge.

7. (Subject then continued describing the buildingrunr.ensVaya and Naherezhnayn which houseiUest' He suggested.that two bombs wouldufficient to destroy this complex whereas four would be required to destroy completely the General Staff complex in the Arbat area. then described the headquarters of the Moscow Military Districtew blocks from Subject's residence.) St uge underground shelter someeters in depth with all living facilities and operating areas for the headquarters was built there during the war. (At51 Subject plotted ail of these suggestedand others, totalinglcwn-up section of the Moscow map covering the center of the city.)

0. Si BFPIYA was also brought to the basement of the .Military District headquarters, and was shot there by n the presence of other generals. complex was surrounded by armored cars and tanks, in firing positions, during the night when BERIYA

executed. There was some apprehension that BERIYA's

cohorts would make en attempt to seize this headquarters at hat time. An Important signal center Is located In this eadquarters now and there are switchboards for VCh lines as well as telephone machines. Incidentally, BERIYA's bodyJ was burned In gasoline In the basement of this building. (Subject then continued to briefly describe the other targets

for destruction which were later sketched by him Indetail In the map referred to above, during Meeting to.he-adquarters st Perkhushkovo wws elso citedargetToraeSt ruction:SubJecTrB^Trtrrr^eated


Distr_ foned sketch There as wel Is sta and it defens slons compos writte ment c

or destruction. Subject ayuiir repeatea the Incident of NEDELIN's death, adding that KHRUSHCHEV should be confronted with the liereat number In the USSR know the truth. As an example, there was widespread mourning In Dnepropetrovsk due to the fact that manv__of the personnel working at.tfie launching site who also perished slon came from Dnepropetrovsk.)

this buTiding to you beforeill draw a'detelled of It. One mine should be sufficient to destroy It.imilar headquarters of the PVO In otheruch as Khabarovsk where my grandfather-ence-removed tinned. Tfiere Is also one inTev also has one overlaps the PVO defensive rone of Lvov. The PVO ive ronesorps structure. There are no dlvl-In the corpe. They have brigades which, in turn, are ed ofhink this structure has allp, thatescribed the exact militaryhe PVO rocket units.


S: Another Important target Is the KGBra of .the-Moscow ObLas-L. This Is located near the main telegraph building on Gorkiy Street. Ituge white building, designated as the KGB of the. Moscow Ob last. And, of course,entioned before, si! the headquarters cf the military districts should be blown up, as well as the headquarters of the Groups of Forces. To cover them all would require somewhere betweenach one assigned to place one mine. One man should not be assigned more than one task since the distances are too .great between the

S: entioned before, it would be well to destroy all of the regional VOYENKOMATY also, since they have all the beslc requisition plans for mobilization Involving equipment as well as personnel. orked In the headquarters of the Moscow Military District at one timenow exactly how detailed theseat Ion plans can be. If the regional VOYF.NKCMATY are destroyed, this wouldmobilization completelyeriod of at leastay This Is the planning time for the first jnobi1Izatlonlus ICO Is the planning time for

the second mobilization echelon Into which even physically unfit persons may be taken.

15- Si annot arrange for WYNNE's expenses. He could get British Industrialists to subsidize him, but evennow we will buy very little at the exhibition. There are only two million dollars authorized to purchase specific items which are of Interest to us, and that is all. They are restricting expenditures because money Is needed for making rockets. WYNNE will hesitate to spend money advanced to him by the Industrialists here since he lives on their small commissions. They give him onlyounds per month.ish you would consider this. It Is an Important matter. Please see If you cannot subsidize WYNNE. Gt Don't worry about this. We will treat WYNNE very well. Everything will be taken care of, but do not get yourself involved In any personal dealings with WYNNE. We will take care-of WYNNE separately. S: Of course, he asked me to help him, and he has turned out toery wonderful person.

O: Our clandestine relationship Is one thing, but our dealings with WYNNE will be entirely adequate. It Is something different and under no circumstances should you be Involved In this. Si elt It my duty to report this to you. Gt Remember, he may inadvertently talk too much either here or in Moscow. S: He Is afrfad end will not talk. Gi Remember he Is inexperienced In clandestine matters. S: That's right, he Is Inexperienced. However, he did take my one letterocumentaw him off at therevented any KGB officer from approaching WYNNE at the airportass and simply said politelyas escorting WYNNE. Even though escorts usually stay behind the gates, diplomats are often escorted to the plane ramp,id also. He waved to menew that the letter would be delivered. ven went to the second story of the terminal building and waited until the plane flew off. G: ssure you WYNNE will be adequately taken care of and everything you request will be included, but don't talk to him about this again.. S: Veryon't speak about WYNNE any more.

St ust remembereddo yeu rememberas looking at the picture of the ,KGB -PF./IDENT In London .and I

said VOROBYEV, Zhenlye? It wasactuaUy

However, thereOROBYEVi*1The two resemble each other and when you show meill point this out to you. AHQV graduated

^fJQBL.Ahe_ Academy with me.

10. Ot Now that you are through with your notes, let us proceed to our agenda. The first question Is this: When you were at the Rocket Academy and studied the missiles about

wblch you have reported in detail, in this nine months course you say only tactical missiles were taught and no strategic missiles. Why Is this? S: Thereeneral (OB20RMA.YA) .lecture on strategic miss lies'/ but these were not called! JCBMs... They were simply referred to as missiles with rangesilometers. The Academy has prepared Itsraining officers ln technical aspects of rockets employed bv ground forces. These rockets are studied in great detail with all kinds of charts and diagrams.

G: Do youategory of rockets which we call IRBMs which are of greater range than your tactical rockets butas great as ICBMs; for example, say roughly between the rangeso IgOO Mlometers? Si We have no such designation. We have division. ave Slven you is under fthe control ofVARENTSOV. end everything else Including what..yeu'mchtI6ned is under the command of the Strategic Rocket Command of the Land under MOSKALENKO. These are separate headquarters and they are always In conflict with respect to requests for budgetary allowances. The ortfis who QlecXdc^are KHRUSHCHEV .together with, andAN,

S: Up to now,VARENTSOV. Isarshal of Artillery. Actually he should be by now Chief Marshal .of Artillery, especially since MEDELIN's deaths But they are not giving it to him. Incidentally, on the Snd of September

VARENTSOV will haveh^birthdayd1 I

SOKOLOVSKIY will be there and

MALINOVSKIY will fec'thereV There will probably be anregarding the award of the Order of Lenin towill bring gifts. lready know which artistsinvited for musical entertainment. There will beetc. ust also getood gift. His hobbywatches. Heollection of watches. ood, expensive watch, and have Inscribed onthe (Subject and wife's true name)". going to bethe bartender,nd the affairlx-room anaxtment onThV''*-

21. G: To what extent were you told about the ICBMs? Si We were told that they exist and,ave wrltlen, the basic characteristic is that they arc two-stage rockets. Emphasize this to your scientists Co spare Tfiem an "analysis for more than two-stage rockets which do not exist. Next, the fuel capacity Is much larger, and of course the overall space In the



There is more high-calorific fuel which Is a The pnly_spUd_fuel we have is used for theaewhich look like pencils. They must be veryhand ling these rockets especially when they are There was an incidentocket had itsbent dur|ng loading and when It was placed Inthe friction Ignited the rocket, causing Are they still trying toolid fuel St Yes, they are trying to develop atomic WEDELIN perished Inest.

ICBMs at all, or are They are all experimental for

1 mentioned which.

sfr wn5 this reelect has now that Itange of

22. Gt Are there any they only experimental? St strategic purposes except for the one as you said, of an Intermediate range aboutrcte stating.onlygn Included "in our'missile arsenal,

0 kVlomelersdata was unavailable to me. Otherwise the strategic rockets they have told meepeat again, areel rocketsength variationnd'21Tmeters. ave never personally seenocket or Its installation. The basic obJectTv* Is toigh calorled fuel snd lo have all of the circuits snd control mechanisms working properly with respect to each other; to reduce the deviation errors from the planned trajectory, or to correct the errorsero deviation position: and then tho rocket can travel from one continent to another.

23. G: Now with respect to the rockets* which are In roductlon, where are their storage areas, "manufacturingetc.? You already mentioned that somewhere toward Murmansk there weretes. Do you lmow ortnersJthe bases (launching sites) In the general direction of Murmansk, only five or six people would have access to the location maps. Onepecial pass to go to theDirectorate of_ the General Star/ ol tne fHnisTrvEvenavclo'lentTrDIrecTorate (Countries ofither Tarn met" "by the offm to SSt, phone call, or am told to gopecific room or they may Issueemporary one-day pass. Everything Is doneecorded manner. They are so strict about lost documents. There was one esse where an officer waa court-martialed for losing his working folio. Actually, two officers were enemies and one burned the working folio of the other and the one whose folio could not be produced was tried.

2U. Gt Did you have any Inkling about rocket bases from conversation? S: an find out In the future now that you have advised me exactly what Is of interest. If ycu will repeat this to me as iEEIman find out. en-withi^^tv"ersation would "of, heirect answerirect quesTTon. But he tells me things like this"You know, they're not giving me enough funds. They even critic lee me for having spent too much money for the erection of permanent-type protective shelters for artillery ordinance. ed to use canvas, but the canvas becomes weather-worn and disintegrateseason, end thataste of money. uilt brick structures with permanent roofs, but the cost was criticized since the big priority for military expenditures .Is rockets," ave to 'approach himoundabout way, Indirectly, "to conversation we ere Interested in. G: uggestion sometimes this works well. One could mention that ln the Western press one ears about accomplishments In new missiles, particularly in CBMs, and the say,hat_ UTfly^Jia^ve^jLverythtng and .we ^have-nothing?". S: He certainly wouldn ofjigV^

25. Si ive ycu my word,wear by my child, that he has so often told me "you know. (Subject's true firstith,nji_tnWBP

Fyprythjjignly.^on_paper, end" there-Is nothing actual He waarspeclffcany""referring to ICBMs. Hefor short.ranges we can' fuLLUJ.^tha.Jiiaalojis,cyond.,that_what7 There is nothing." G: he fact that you probably would not hove, access toth* exact coordinates of the launching sites, but would It be possible at least to find out from conversation that someone had been say, off-hand,laceayi fe-ni vs and who night say what an extensive rocket launching dAvelop-ment there Is there, ahould that be the case. S: There certainly could be conversations of that kind.

26. Si By the way. Marshal VARENTSOVery good administrator. He delegates*many projected plans to hisand then Just corrects and supervises what what they have to do. ave friends In the Artillery Headquarters. Beginning with his Chiefff of the Ground Forces Artillery,eorgly Splrldonoylch. He recentlyh birthday but because of the fact thalhe had quarreled with- his former name was ZHIDCV but Stalin made him change to 2HADOV because 7HIDOV sounded too Jewish. KARIAVILI lives across the river from my house on the

birthday/party. ust mention this because/that'snow who the/will be.

G: You mentioned_?HADOV. St Yes, he Is the Chief of Staff of the Ground Forces. 0: Zs 7HADOV In any way related to rOWUSHCHEV? S: No, there Is no relation there. Gl How about Marshal GRECHKO? St GBZCliKO, yes. He Is marriediRUSHCHEvTs, exactly whomnow. KHRUSHCHEV Is certainly pulling him along. They say heool. He did well on purely military matters before, but now In his present positioneputy to the Minister, he isool. Anyway, this IsADOV spoiled things for

S: old you before about an aide-de-camp PORUCHENETSa very Intelligent artillery colonel, Vladimir BUZINOV, He graduated from the Artlliery Academy, andery smart fellow. He is tbe aIde-de-cemp ,to Seryey-^errjgvev*ch jvyjElJISOYJ His problem is that he is broke. He has three chl ldren and receives lessife drinks and also smokes. Her name Is Anastasia.. nowisit them at home. He loves to drink too, andake)-hlm out because he Is broke. He can drlnf*alf liter of coqnac:ime.

.Whan he Is drunk hereati is so easy toto him. ay is, "What was all thislastnd he would say something like this,were maneuvers; KHRUSHCHEV came down andpeech saying that he Is introducing tomarshals and generals, the Commander-in-Chief ofUnion, KHRUSHCHEV." They call him that, even thoughla still lieutenant-general. (Jokingly toustrelative KHLOPOV. romise to bring you hislooks Just like you. This BUZINOV-Is notran adjutanteffect. Is notfiing. BUZINOV carries Top Secretreports from VARENTSOV to the Central Committee. Itpossible for him to show ne some of these Items. he would be entirely black In this respect, that G: <That is the only way he must be,

ave some more questions on subjects that All these questions supplement the field of

1 knowledgeabllity that yeu have already shown familiarity with. St nderstand what you want to know about rochets. an say Is that the experimental effort now to make ICBMs is all based on those shorter range rockets which have already

been proyen^except that all dimensions would beIncreased. Oi ustfew written questionswill be time for you to go. S: etterbutill go as early as you like andong

Please tell/us now all you know about You previously stated that you were told"were up to ten submarines already produced In a S: ound cut several months ago.

rieBnd that the submarines operate on atomic energy fuel?

St ust like the Icebreaker, Lenin. Gt May Itthat they are continuing to produce additional o not know. G: Where ere these beingyou know? St now thisthat separatethe atomic submarine are made at Menzeainsk on" (Hotet Subject Curreetad-4faie-

ncdolsk.) Thisest of KAZAN on thea. Mon'zei Insk Is theilometers east of KAZAN which Subject previously reported to have been the eastern town of the former Moscow Military

During World War II this little town had aestablished there. All kinds cf naval equipmenton vessels there. lmost married the daughter ofadmiral who was sent to this town as the chief of thehome was in Leningrad. sed to see the girl, Masha, (Menzelinsk). Her father has since died. Therevery jaroe artillery ordnance plants there and At'that time the Moscow Military District hadhotel there and my friend Col. AleksandrMARENOV introduced me. He Is now the Deputy to the

Chief of the Political Directorate cf the advisors to Hungary. The Admiral's name was Nlkolay NETSV1TSK1Y. orked together with MARENOV in the Moscow Military District In the i'olltlcal Directorate and he was chief of the section of the Komsomols. He Is not an Intelligence officer.

Very well. They equip the submarines herewhatdo they take them up the Volga? base? St No. The atomic^equipment is shipped In

large racking crates to an assembly" point In the Leningrad Oblast. Gt Where in the Oblast? St d hot know,elieve it Is somewhere in Leningrad or aomewhere Just out of town. Into Leningrad, there Is also an assembly base somewhere in .the Far East. Gt Do you know if there arc bases In the WhiteSt Yes, there are. G: Assembly points? St Ofam not sure. There are docks which receive the material from

MenzeJJnsk which are located In the Far Eaat andLeningrad on the Neva River. 1 Jilt I reawnnbered Near Leningrad they are digging extensiveshelters for these docks_nr assembly points. Theyto the water and are Ilka pans, or rather like our These are constructed very

33. G: How about the Belomor canal? Do they not take submarines up this canal to the White Sea? Si on't know If they take them up the canal,eard that there areon the White Sea/. ear agoas on vacation In _SukhumIappened to stayormer navalhere are {no longer shy naval ones now because they have all been pooled together. However,ertain first rank who lives In the very areas that you are talking about, no_rth of Leningrad. ouldn'twhere, but he mentioned that_near the sea there are secret,bases where much activity Is going on. Whether they bulid anything there oron't know.

thesered even from aQubmeryeoVits that can: be launcheda submerged nos^tion. Gt P

3h. Gi And do you know whether thesequipped with rockets that can be fired position? Si Yes, they haveurface position as well as from a

What af* the ranges of these: elievested the range. The launching wajaj (BApISHAYA VOLMA) was LO-aterm inej). This. Is the wave whichccriputed^ in order,eep the rocket through' the water. .TheyTrt?rn"!ned the tfre 1lghj/"oTave and under what fcipoO ctond Hlons the rocket wouldjJev'ate. from Its set course. G: Are there any ether kind of submarine engines, other than atomic, that have recently been developed? S: The usual other motors are diesel hut now they have very powerful ones. now of no other types_.


35. Si Incidentally, we were told that your scientists have not perfected the exact nozzle feed which permits thedesire per second of fuel consumption with the admixture from the oxidizer. escribed all kinds of nozzles In my notes. G: By the way, what do you meanhTIEhTJVYYE nozzle? St That Is an orificenzzle Inloatell -pulsates. Gt ee what you mean now. lt Is like ft ball valve. 5t These nozzles operate to feed Into combustionthrough the space between the Inner and outer wall, There must be an extreme precision because an Imbalance In feed wouldeviation from the desired rocket velocity. The workhese nozzles Is toonstantly uniform mixture cf fuel and oxidizer Into the combustion chamber throughout the entire active portion of the rocket's trajectory. Gi Do these

nozzles act as carburetor? Si No, thatixing chamberMESITEL*. Then It goes to the FORSUNKI nrorzles. rote all thia up. This is the very soul of the rocket.

Would you have any Idea of where atomic weapons nf any kind. Including hydrogen bombs, are stored? Si Whereo not know,ave heard that there .are two, hjdden storage areas In the DDR where atomic warheadstcrgsL Write this down. As to my source. Engineer Colonel1 lery GRYZLOV, formerly thecfileT offi_FaCuity._bf theery Academy Itneni Dzerrhlnekogoi-there, "are new five Faculties but at that time there were only four. Colonel PETRENKO Is the chief of one of the Faculties also. GRYFLOV Is now In the DDR and Is the chief of the GAU there. This GRYZLOV Is concerned with the establishment of these, bases In the DDR. All of this Is, of course, for rockets.

G: Now how about the bombs of anj; atomic typeequivalentshat do you know about them and about where they are stored? That la the type that can be delivered by aircraft. St lready mentioned that everything has been computed down to as low as five kilotons but nothing lower. Thereklloton bombs and of greater TNT equivalent. There are also"hydrogen bombs of greater thanlloton equivalents which have been successfully.developed and tested. Gt Do you know where they are stored? St ave no idea.

have any Idea how many bombs have

round numbers,ore?

now Is that atomic warheads are and the unloaded rocket shells Ino Just rockets. nderstand. mbs of an atomic character, whether they er purposes, are stored secretly In

I realise that these are difficult ques-If we could recruit rOKOLOVSKIY who Is

we would have our answers.

Gt Don't be disturbed. These questions must be asked.


30. Gt Do you produced at least In St aveIdea,ne place Gt a not referrln also mean_thate for rocket or oth varlwsoleces, Gt tions to answer. St nowhink


Or Here Is an interesting question. How Is your long-range aviation coordinated with your long and shorter range rocket commands? It seems that everything issn emphatically artillery, Just how does long-range aviation fit In? St an say this, that KHRUSHCHEV has made an error which Is In our favor. At first he emihaslred an Increasaln aviation. o not mean civilian planes or old models. All that It Junk. Gt er only to new strategic



ombat s

They sr?..

the scale them previ all for av on Is behend muchs Inten

aviation. Si He Isaintaining long-rangeut la keeping the productionery slow pace. We call It our DD aviation, long-range aviation. He still' maintains this, but even.Ighter units have been disbanded. For example there was one" In which MIKOYAN'seutenant'colonel, was serving near Moscow. The "entire division was disbanded. Capable, healthy officers were sent to the Drferzhlnskly Academy to study rocketry. They aresome Air Force personnel to rockets. During theas attending there, they were still wearing,their, blue air force insignia before_they changed to the Black You might say Thai today KHRUSHCHEV has nowess important role to aviation.

ho. St In comparison to rockets, relatively lesser significance. However long-range aviation must be considered, structIng long-rangeut not op numbers In which they had been building example, under STALIN. STALIN had been G: Would yeu say!that long-range avlat! In favor of rockets? S: Definitely not considerably reduced In favor of rockets aviation has been curtailed in favor of long-range aviation Is not beingefore.



hi. G: independent? Is located as


Is the long-range avlet!on command entirely St Yes, they "have tfielr own headquarters, one goes past the crematorium and past the University of Friendship where YERZIN Is an Instructor. On the same street on the left-hand side Is the aviation Marshal ZHAVORONKOV Is the chief. G! Is It not on the LeningradsHayf' Shosse? St No, that is the Moscow airport and there is an air force command headquarters there.

That Is where at general, was the

and they live, near the Novo-

one timeon,ieutenant-chief of the aviation of the Moscow Military District. He has since been imprisoned. He Is de-commlssloned, miserable, and drunk. I'll tell you about him sometime also about his (STALIN* a) daughter. now where

It Is not far from the British Embassy. It Is Arbatskly bridge.

St To In favor

sum up, aviationhole has been radically of rockets. G: However, Is it correct to say "ciurrtodern models of long-range bombers are still

St the

Yes, and center of

Improved and kept up at leastinimum

their headquarters Is on this street going town. It is the Bolshcye Peregovskoye,

^ I"

and across the street Is the First Moscow Hedleal Institute. The statue of PEREGOV holding the skull Is there.

is also commanded you who the new chief of the Soviet can't remember now. NOVIKOV was retired for They don't simply discharge marshals. It this. For example, ZHUKOV was

tl cHAVORONKOV replaced NOVIKOV. Remember Just like KUZNETSOV, the former navy chief. elieve MaJjjwl_ZJjAypRQNKOV Is also became chief of thealso cornrnanTedarshal of Aviation. 1 teTT Air Force la. ersonal reasonsersonnel action to do

dismissed, butersonnel action by the Ministry ofn?e"Ion of fivealf thousand rubles. But the Soviet Air Force exists as an integral part

Now everything li the Air Force chief are a: alr-to-surface? However, surface-to-airthat Rockets like theescribed

Soviet Armed Forces. However, It does not have the weight that It used to have under STALIN, subordinated to rochets. Gt However,

must have under his Jurisdiction those rockets which are air lorce type equipment, such as air-to-air and S: That's absolutely right. Is In the hands of the PVO.

which the MIG carrOathat Is all under the sir force con-

6 arc th! rocIfels that can fire en additional four MIGs beyond the maximum ceiling of climb of the

VP Bnv attempts been made to develop on atomic energy aircraft engine? Si No. Ail they ars testing now la hnW loocket engine work on the fission of atomic

about our meet tomorrow can begin earlier meet you in the farewell toemember It Is not at night since thia

so'M (Subject said the hotel, hotels late

Ii5. Gt This finished theave, meeting for tomorrow? S: Let us arrange to0 hours. o: That's fine. Then we and we won't have to keep you lobby againid tonight. Gt I'll take ycu down out of so good to come In and out of

mall town, not like London.

f relief It was to meaa lying In

e to bcn Leeda. Just think how hard It would be for us to continue our work with

llEIlal:onH forselkeyso you

won't be running back between hotels looking for It. the room number Just ln case. It (Subject lefthours onnd was escortedo his own hotel directly end with-

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