MEETING NO 1 (LONDON) AT MOUNT ROYAL HOTEL-20 APRIL 1961

Created: 4/20/1961

OCR scan of the original document, errors are possible

*nrro3 flQ APRILveref"mIn the

Bnelevood

Imlrfleld

. Jeeeph Walk

.Oeorge MoAdam

2. By menirearranged neetlng aet up through Mr.aa organised by Mr. (details of vhlch are recordedwee expected at any tine convenient for him to take leave ofunder the pretext of turning tn for the night. Thle was expectedat eny tine0 houra. Bub Joat'a lnstructlona vere tohich was engaged by Mr. naElewood. Sinceppeared toeeting place because it vaa much larger, with adequateend, more Important, it vea en Interior eourt thus avoidingand in additionlandestine recorder could be more conveniently;In thla rocei, lt vaa decided to use. Mr.W0OD, here-referred to aa H. andreferred toelted for';

the arrival of Subject Inor the purpose of escorting him toh-re the other two members of the pcrty waited. Subject arrived att0 hours and after being greeted by H. and J. vaa toldore adequate rreetlnQ area vea aet up In, to vhlch room Bubject vea Subject arrived in Room0 hour a. Upon entering Subject waa introduced tond R. end ell persona eatirclemall serving table In the middle.

3- 0) Would you prefer to speak Russian or English? S: ould puch rather sperk Ruaslenan express myself much better In Russian. Oi Very veil, then. Bi raduated from the HXlitary-Diplonatlc_.Acedemy_ ent to Turkey. Hy working languege there vea English. tdifficulties there aM during tbe peat fourimply forgot Trrich of my Fngliah by disuse. Veil, Oentlci-en, let's get to vork. Vel of Important work to do. C: You have already introduced yourselves upatelre. S: Yea. G: Therefore yo'i know now that you are In good hands. 8: Yea,eve thought ebout thisong timeere attempted to nuke thia contact taking e. very devious path aboutmit report to you tn full. Oi You wist know thet we are in receipt of your original letter. 8: You newi theeve to the tvo teachers (the tvo Aurlcon tourleta). If you knew how mrny greyave acquired since thatif you hed only narked the algnal Justould have known thatsege got Into the proper hands. orried ao much about this. (To renenure Subject J. pulled out the original copy of Subject's first letter referred to above including the photograph he enclosed of Colonel Charles. Military Attache, Ankara, at the time Subjeot served hla tour there.) S: Yea, thattheent end Colonel PTOCS was the Mllltery Attache there. Ci This ves shown you to reassure you end in tvorn tell youesponse was not made to you immediately after

receiving tha letter. Ve deliberately delayed signalling you ecure nennereceipt of the materials you vented to pass could ievieed. This vaa dona exclusively in consideration of your security. Bi Aril, betveen friends, admit that you did not truer id*. That la the auat unpleasent and painful to bb. Oi Ko, it is quite the opposite.

a. Si aa exposing myself constantly to eonsidereble danger. walking all eround the AEeriean BDbaaey,ill tell you allIn detail later; thoughts are Just Jurying intoBind. adbe nt by an Aaetrleen representativevhyay Aaerleent Becausefriend of sdne vas the Military Attache In Turkey, Colonel CharleaX alsoy other ABerlcsn aeQuainxenees among vhoa vera theAir Attachaa. On the Brltlahnev only the "rvho vasAttache and hla As si stent. Due to thisented tovith Colonel rrrr? eooe sortuture planlready had Inbut unfortunately Just prior to ny departure the mother of Colonel TfyJX'died and he and his vife flev to Acer lea -for tha funeral. Since bedid not vant to speak to any of the otherithna notacquaintedfor exsngtle the Air Attache bed only recently arriveddid not knov Mm too veiland ln additioneft Turkey Xreturn, as going on leave but they held me up in Moscownot send re baok. x

6, Ve knov about this. Did youelephone call (in Moscow)t 81 id, but thia gave me absolutely nothing atid not understand anything. Ihe onlynderstood in the whole message vas tbe word "Karen". elephoneo not understand English et all. equeeted thatelephone call vas to be Bade, that it be snde ln Russian. Xn addition the cell ahould be madeublic booth. 0: It vas. S: The nightasriend's housearty end the following morning vhen the telephonehought it ves from him. Mytime for the cell wasoura end the cell comeours. 0: That le correet. S: nderstood nothingouldn't ask questions very veil since my wife vaswalking sround. In addition, nry mother and daughter

also la tba room. Although they reeliaean apeak FretUah,agmrrtoua-trpa eoorvramtloa voold rale* tha question as to vithn epesklng. Ot Xa your vita ebeolritaly unwitting of your lnfeen-tlone? 81 "o, ehe doesn'thing. lll tell you exactly who knows enything about lt later. (This ia in reference to tho Bunerouo ecntacteaade, of vhlch ve are on).

7. (Subject nov beglne hla btcigrenhy.) 81 an born9 in the Caucasus. Hy fathereruchlk (Firt Lieutenant In the Cier'sy fether'a once vee Aaftlsdr nr*tAirj7IC3. Hy gmndfeUier eessa froa BtavTopol maybe you vould like to Jot dovn eova of this data since lt vould be ban to rani faer everything, (fetes vera taken by all partus at least fur the soke of enpearnncoa since Subject vaa unaware that the conreieetlcei vas going to be recorded, normal note taking ve* enrspletely out of the question since Subject's swornr of Breaking vasapid-fire larrar often Jumping froa subject to subject la Inooaplate tboughto. It had been previously Aecided to per-dt subject to unburden hineelf in any vey ha vas disposed to during this first meeting.) renAfether'e vaca vas Florien AITTOWOVICH and heeil known jurist in Stavropol. Onlyere been aecnted and eon-fronted vith having comaeckgaound of nobility (eroryenetro). Al-legedly thle infbraation esna froa one of the countries of People's tesjuereelee, Hy Bother brought me up elora na tha only eon. Hy father haft graduetedolytechnic Institute end hadnlna ene^nerr end thenbb-peeredrace, Filthar he died of illness or vas shot during tbe Revolutionary days elnea there vere very violent conflict* in that district of th* Cfoaomsue. The town vaa formerly knovn a* Yladlkwrfcas. Itrl-llrwoal eltyj its Oaeetlea nenait la celledU, Well, bothgrandfathers died; ny mother brouglit re upinished ten year elaeees and Immediately enrolled Ib tha Second Kievery School. Since ay father hod verdebed without trace lt la not possible to state eo simply Inffioial records In the Soviet Union. One simply vould be blocked for life from progressing in any speciality. They would not accept one in the Party anft one vould Just aboutotaaon laborer.orkedegend the* he heft been killed Actually ve did find out from records later, and oy not her know* thleeh*iving vith me nov,that he vns killed during the slag* of Rostov end thert he had been proroted to First Lieutenant infficer ta the White Army. So everything vns acceptedad no difficulty. In ay earlyad better keep myself vith enthusiasm to the Corounirt cause end, to be perfectlyid serve quit* faithfully. m almoet forty-two novla feet ond April will be my fortywseccmft btrtbdnythat Is thia coring Sunday. Oi We'll celebrate it. 61 Thank you.

9* oined the Koraeomolsotwlfleredrogressive yours? ean of our country fighting for the Idee of Lenin. Hy aril tion than vas to Join the Party andnsandidate for Party raember-ehlp. Alsoraduated from the Her Artillery fiehool. Immediately uponas takenwenty-day ansigremnt to liberate the Western isoreln* and our action van in tho directionsov (at that tin* Poland).

At that time the Teshovehehlla (popular expression for the extreme KXTD purgese* eetlng ln full force and there vera sacry exeeutloua even of Ansy people. artyaa aaelgned, tofsrtherot of other candidates, to Berreolitical CoDrdssar (Folltrobotnik) vith vnrlous Anny units. orked ln that capacity for four years. Hy rank vaa Senior Polltrux. There vas little laaa of Ufa in thle eempnign In Poland. Thle vas ln September end9 end we were engaged ln liberating Belorussia and the Western tscralne. oi This vas Polish territory. St Tee lt vas, but ve:vere liberating It, Just as the Bed Amyerated the Baltic states. At thatas on vhat vas known as the first Western front.

10, 0: Vherv did these troops eome front 8: Primarily fromalso rrou other vdlltery districts. They were regular Soviet Armyvera engaged in occupation operations. Our Front occupied theLvov end then there vbsine of cteosjrcetlonHitler occupation forcea). ereadre of fleergraduation from the Kiever" School, end have served In After this operation 1 /red together vith amy fellow officer to AchinskJoroslblrsk. t Rifle

Division vaa deployed thereaa transferred to lt. as assigned the duty of workingolitical workerattery. Inhe vex vith the Finns began end lnur Division vme sent intoon the Karelian Iethrmia against the linns. The Division vas in reserve almost all tbe tine, but tvo days prior to the arrival of KALDTIltwho vas to pextleipete in the Pease Treatyour Division vas thrown into action end oclyof the strength survived. All regimental pomanders were killedaa fortunate to escapeerateh. Thia vbs due to the factes an artilleryman and our positions are sottevhat behind the front line. Despite the hardships of weather and thisas still full of enthusiesB arid, as thle vsraa accepted into the Party inm very glad that you have my original letter. Hy spirits have been buoyed up considerablym no longer tired.

U. Oi Let me ask thle brief question. Please tell us now how much time you have et your disposal? Can you get Into any trouble for being evnyi Bt avepeelel Intelligence mission during this trip now. an leave at any time to do my own workill tell you later vtutt my mission is. The other members of the Bnrty realizem not an engineerpe el all at endember of this delegationork in the foreign relations section of the Committee. They knov that many Intelligence personnel vork ln this Coanittee end in fact in ell ministries. eed to say isant to go off, Ot We ask you this out of consideration for your personal eeeurlty. For execple, if it Is alright for you to goalk tcccrrov you cannot again any,ent outalk". We'd like to meet vith you often but not every other fire minutes. Si That's right. oul! say thatave about two hours' tine. Oi In addition, elnee youeavy beginning with tomorrow forcing and are also tired from the trip today, you should have eome sleep. 81 If anyone enlle cm on tbelll sirplyas tired and had disconnected tha phone end old not hear lt. id "Oood night" to the other

feUovi and vent to eleep. That', all there ll to it. Oi At any rete yeu Biuet be on your guard constantly and it le difficulto determine what le dangerous for you and vhat la not. 0i ave asked you tomelll also protect myself. 0: Enough dangeroua risks hare been taken by you alreedy end by the grace of God everything turned out alright. Therefore, that la aU the more re aeon for being extra tareful nev. Bt Tea, after all the ehancea thsAOod everything turned out alright and thank you for your eonalderation.

15. 8: arty meeber and the var vith llnland' 1 tranaferred to the Moecov HUltary dlrtriet. Hythere vaa Deputy to the Chief of the Political Section dealing vith Kcesomlsateral j lll give yeu my eor^rte auto--Tff^? fuUorder aa It ahould be done. orked there until the beginning of World War XX, mail room and brought my mother there. Previously my mother alsooom in Ordtrxxrikidre but1 When the vexaato the Headquarters of the Moeeov Military dletrlet. OT.lnBtruator oUtleel Directorate of tho Moeeov Military Diatrtet and again thia Involved vork vith the kernels. aa at HI full of enthusiasm and vaaenlor Polltbukaa tventy-three year. " treneferred to the Military Council of the MoscowMilitaryDistrict in the eeetlon forKl.alon.. Attf* Ccmander of the District vaa ARTOcrEV and heev vorkln* in Sverdlovsk aa the Deputy Commander, He had some previoua dlffleultlaa -hla full name ia Pavel Artemtevioh AKBMXEV,

f tho Kilitery Council vns OAPANOVICH, Dmitri

arried and to vhom X He diedaveTied nov for fifteen years. 0: Whet vae exaotly hi. position? 8! Beember of thehe Moaeov Mllitery Diatriet. rominent poUUcil

tZ etr^ LT. ieutenant Oeneml -

5n the German cemetry. Beeryked ma. Beaanlv "wl* tnW ftto not deny thi. to you.

rk hyhanged all my viev. andecome more mature in my thinking.

I*. orked there until Roveraber. At that tfcrw the ?hought thet the var vould end rhlL .Trtl8tln=tiona or decorations. eceivedfor the Flnnlahcoiwndstion igerette ease. There

-the Soviet Unionube^eTa re^ef^

vas sent to the First Ukrainian rront. aa ssalgned

t T,bPBd"URrter8 ^VAIMBOV, Sergeieneral -hoarshal. Bote hi. nameFXi you mucTSout him

Inter. Re vnsthaten. Folk.rwl) of fllllUWIJ and we the Chief of the Artillery of the First tfcrslnlnn Front, he liked ntI ve* fell, of enthusiasm and assigned re en the Connandarreioliyj recent im center for entt-tank artillery regiments. At thet tins ve had tverrty-seven anti-tank artillery regirwrrts in Mtlon on the First TJkrelnitn Front eomhfttlnr? German tanks. There fore the General, gore mm thisphesiflng hov InportAnt it vea toonstant flov of replweeivmt unit, to the front.

ter on vhen I'd like to mention onr bvAtmI futureill eona seek to thla point. One ofier's greatest sdsVkes vas thet th* eighteen mobilisation and training centers in the vere never destroyed. Theae centers continuously fed rdons of replace cents ta the frontf the Soviet Aran*, these vera all_tbe mobilisation and organ!rational ciree-tton unlta end It lo the very eouTof tbo Army. They eootrol not only svav1 also all aorta of eofaipnent and supplies-: Oerotan bombing vns dio-orgerdred, end pointless email divereloolet groups eculd eeeily have destroyed theae centers and parr.Ufmd the Soviet Amy, hot ve'U eon beck to thet later. Primarily sry vork there vaa to reoTETilre heavily depleted anti-tank reglnerrtt. In intensive eonbat tho life ofe^lsent vns oftea only one or tvo hours since the Oernann launched aeny boss tank attacks. These depleted units veret endy an ebundrnt and constant flov of tanka end gun* from factories in the Urals vhieh Hitler neglected to destroy end vhieh still maintained supply fleopite extensive foodon the part of th* factoryhe population. Thisundamental errnrlll dioouss thisn ve consider what raoat be done in the future.

ft. In myadtraining units one each InTverkovtamir. Regl^ntauleped at thea* pointsto front line duty. orked tV-jr* for three month* end ventedon line duty ande-yuest. as assignedeputy tofor personnel matters. At this point my emrvteeine offieer. orked tvothis eapeelty ur>Vr nyero of th*TTKVICH.

HaerrrfcTd. Heor-aneeno* the Coerander of ther* /rtlll*ryintthe Fighth artilleryBrigade. rlrade eoneisted of'th He firm nt a. The CosssanVr ofCTT7ALAX, also

a Hero of the Soviet Union, vho died recently In Toroneih. tevas meat to Moscow in June loH. any friends there end at thatMilitary Go*f the Mobcov miitary Wetrlet included JFTIT/,vas then deputy of th* Council of workers of Hceeov, /rfTTTCTj *nd

fVICH, as veil sa ell th* chiefs of the ares and services. Thla military district organization vps at that tiros the noet Irrportont one beeauae it aloe controlled the HeaAnmrtere for the defene-eov. This defense included thirteen defensive rince extended fron tho Kremlin to Horhaisk. Theaeorgan! rod after the Germans vere thrcvn book. These elreles vere orgenlEed Into otrong points end later vliea thoy vere transforred intoheyt forward to tbe front lines.

J7'S;I hospitalised for tvo months, released, nnd prepared to return to the front. u the young*at regimental ooonender on thohet tine. hen had tvo decorations)ere, Altogether, fire orders end eight models. Oi What renk vere you at that time? fli bJot at thet tine. Justaa about to go to theeard that Generol^AKnrrsOY, vho vaa en route to Visit General KUNKV, vea Injuredenk accident end vea flovn to Hoecov and piecedo-called Herahela* Boepltal on the BerebTyexnyy Pereulok. Hla hip vns daravjed andesult one foot vex shorter than the other. Be vas euspendedulleyospital for four moths. Sine* he vaa ay ccroendingrought glfta to him. lready knev ar* veil and he assigned na to be his Hal eon officer fron Mat to the front. He vented ne to do this during hla recuperation and said that then ve vould go beck to the front together end he VOuldeck ay old regiment. old hla that thet vould be fine and since the vox vould end soon and the Germans vould beould like to goilitary Academy. Be aaid he vould arrange this. ent bock end forth to theumber of times and reported to hin.

16. t this time his vife, mother and his tvo daughters vere already In Lvov. On Pushkin Street during the time the Marshal vea hospitalised, theyard time getting food and fuel. ook cere of tbe family since not only vea theery nice personnev thet he vould re-vord ae tenfold forid for Us. The Marshal bed been married once before and from that mrriage heaughter. Bine. She committed suicidethe time the Mcrshal vea hoapltallred because her husband, vho happened toev nemed lAflBAX, and with vhom she vas deeply In love, ves shotlack market ring. old my last vetch and vent dovn to Lvov to bury tlv* girl,lack "reps end her coffin. eturned to the front vith tho Marshal and he knevod done, he said, "Tou areon to me."

19- Oi Up to thia very tine he supports ne, and it is partially due to himm sitting vith you nov slnee as of yesterday he vns stillto send me here. ad ny vise from you oa th* 0th of April, they vrre etlil undecided in the Central Committee yesterday as tohould be sent or not. Thla ia bee ruse my fatherhite officer. On the otheravelstlngulahnd military record in three campaigns, hove been decorated and have no black marks vhetsoover on ny Tarty records. era not to be sent for the reason of myhould be Isolated onyvay. Innce woeaa slated to go to India as the Military Attache ond vna not permitted to go evenns completely prepared to go. ill tell you more about that later. They did not let me go and transferred ne instead to another sect Ion, noaely, this Corrdttee. Of course, the vork Is along the line of Intelligence, but of a. nore passive variety, namely, to vork vith foreign delegations, the purpose being to obtain informationpossibly to steal eone docure-irts of value, and, of course, the ever-present mission of recruiting sxrmoneoreign delegation. At any rate thia latter mission thus far has been unsuccessful as farn concerned.

20. 0: Tor vhlch orgr.nl ration do you execute this mission-the RIB? Bi he OWI. n officer of Gtrotegic Intelligence of the General Staff. Oi Fven up to nov? 8: Yea. They had no cauea to shoot ne or to

arrest me. ear ago Icalled Up by the Chief of tbe Personnel Directorate vho questionedabout my fether. He aaid, Thla la what you have declared your background to ba and thla is whet ve hare found out about your father. Tou aaid your father simply died.- eplied,ere never seen my father and neveriece of bread from him." The General aaid, "But evidently you have concealed the foot." Toeplied,ad aomethlng toenfold opportunity to run off during the vnr or on ray eaalgnment abroad In Turkey,id not do thia. aa even in ell of the countries of the Peoples1 Democracies. 0: Vho vas thisChi en Bt The Chief of the Cadre Directorate la Oen. Lett BHOLTKOV and his DeputyOen. Major SBJKvtTY. The chief of the GPU ia General BEROV vho vaa previously the Chief of tho KGB. They asked me hov long my length of service vaaaid twenty-four years andlll complete my twenty-five years of service. od already completed myears they vould have discharged ma because form politically unreliable. Thet Iseel. Upertain degree they trust ne, but they watch me closely. elieve they actually trust ne becauseearalf ago before they unearthed anything about my father they sent toe to higher academic courses on new tecUnolocy. It is from thererote up all this material on rockets. Zn my opinion, had they already known about my father they would not hnve sent na there. Hnvever, they did not permit me to go to India evenad prepared myself conpletely and had studied all the required codes and ciphersas to here gone as tbe fJZIZMWT.

Wall, anyway, when VARETrreoV returned to the front atoflso vent along and vas' given the eorrannd oft Artillery Anti-Tnnkmlt. This regiment

was Independent and not pert of the Brigade) lt belonged- To the First Ukrainian Front. emended thle regiment until the war ended, ft the end of theonted to go to an Aeodesry but he asked me to vork vith hinear vith the occupation troops. At that time the Headquarters vns in Baden, Austria. It vas the headquarters of the Central Group of Forces. equested VAREBTSOV to release me, saying that ay bride. Vera, ia in Moscow and has Just graduated from tbe tenth class. At thatad sub-let two rooms in ffcocovad then changed for an epsrtaent inave been living for the past fifteen years. Oi Where Is this apnrtoentT Bi Zt le on theHAYA nOHKOVA. Zt ievo-ndmite walk from the Headquarters of the Moscow Military Dlntriet,ork ot the General Staff on the Arbnt. The Oenerel said "Co eheod".

rrived tvo months after the courses began, but Iexamination successfully and vas admitted. ad commended ax had no troubleattalion canrtsnder's examination. SoandI graduated from the Frunze Academy. Immediatelyfrom the Frunzeoe offered the opportunity ofMlnry-Diplomatcademy to study Strategic Intelligence. Ol were you in Frunse? 8: Ithree-year course. on suitedGeneral OAPAHJVICR, vho advised am to vorkear"transferring from one classroom to another at once. orked forin tvo places. My firot assignment wooenior officer in the

Mobilisation and Organisation Directorate of the Headquarters of the Moscow Military District,aA previously worked in e, loverbrked there for six months anabs transferred to the jfcadguerters of the_prouod_IorceB. es also thereenior officer end was perfectly eotiefied with the job, since Itonth more. id have in nind to enter the MMend fortunatoly weegulation which soys that the pny or an officer received just prior to entering the KDA le retained by that officer during the period that hetudent. Thereforeas eceepted at the MM vhlch le near the subway station BOKOL. 0: Is It noteechoTDwya'-Street? 8: That's exactly righteed not say any more about that.

23- Si tudied there for four years fromIt vaaour-year course but nov it has been reaueedhree-yecu-course, Tbe Chief of the Bchool le Gen. belt KRLOPOY. Bben. Lett, of Tonic Forces end bad previously been en Intelligence officer. on't rcacn-ber hla name and potronyrde at the moment. Prior to thia assignment be hod been tho Chief of the Information Directorate of the GRTJ. There ere oix directorates in the 0RU, in addition to the Information Directorate, but ve vlll come beck to that later. The reason he vas given thio appointment ves because tvo predeeeBsoro diedone vas Gen. SLA VIA, vboilitary Attache to one of the Scnnfllnavianelieve Sweden, end the other voe Oen rHaWtfr-who returned from Germany, he vas at GRU at theraduated end vns the one who signed my diploma.

Sh. C: here alao? 8; KCCHFITOV vbs the Deputy Chief. Be vaaieutenant aeneral. Be vns tbe chief instructor of the Scientific Research Deportmentelieve be vasen. Hal or. At that time there veratudente In the clese end now there are only sixty.eported to you In theassed. lll tell youot thio At thatas working there as thelaes, but they also removed oe from there vhen they assigned me to my presentes In charge of selecting students for the clese ao veil as being chief of the elosB. Q: Isn'tlot? St Tea, it is, butm already walking around eleven yearnull Colonel. ttempted to have WTNSP; photograph all these documents, my various peases, ny Party card etc. etnee these had to be loft behind, but he oimply said he vaa afraid.

25- B: Afteras placed in tho Fourththe ORU. This Directorate lo the Pastern Directorate (strategicaree ct orate n, for example the Anglo-Amr-riean Directorate,Directorate ond the First Directorate vhlch Is the Directorateundervhom you probably knov. Wo vlll

come to all these BtrectoTatSB later. orked there forear

EQTtlan desk. ecame familiar with the agent nets there end remember lathing about It "yet. At that time tho leader of Egypt voe lUSSKR'sho vas Brigadier KACuTB. General Mnlor KIGLERXO, who voe the Director in Chief, called me in. 0 had previously been ln Japan. At thle tins KI81ZRKD is still living, but he had been discharged. 0) Does the Eastern Directorate include the Far East os veil as the near Boot? S: It Includes everythingt le ot that tine it did. I'll tell you what the nev organization io later but ot that tire It included the Poor East, Middle Fast end Far feast. fits Deputy ot that time,emember veil, voe Nlkolayho vent under cover

eievhers to th* Hear Baal. Oi What la RTELETiKD's pad* and petrccymlo? G: on't remember.

86. Oi Con yout me all of the other dlreetorates of the OHO? B: The former structure or the present structure? 0: The present structure. Bi lll describe that all to you In detail later. General KTBI2KK0 told me thet they vented to send me to Pakistan as the Senior Assistant to the HElpTOfT. The Military Attache, vho vaa RBZIZHT, vaa ny Instructor atis name slips my mind at the moment. ust be getting tired. greed to go,but vhen all my documents vere prepared the Pakistani Government refused toisa. Anotherieutenant Colonel,also had his rise refused. Oh yes, the Colonel's name vns DUBRCVXH. The reason given for refusing the vises vas that lt vas undesirable to expend the size of tbe Military Attache's office there. lll be remembering things from time to time, plenae forgive me for not being oo alertave been so nervous. The visa vns refused even though my appointment there vas already signed off by VASn,TWSKIT. Therefore,ould not go and neither could the other assistant. DUanOVlH oat there all by himself vith just bis code clerk.

27. S: ontinued to vork another several months on the Flgyptian desk snd KIBTIXIKD called me up again and said, "We are thinking of sending you__to Turkey". This vas already at the end- repared""to "go and studied codes, the operational program, the economies of the country, the armed forces etc.. At thatilitary Attache In Turkey vas.Colonnl KORRASuTV. Heittle fallow vho vas an engineer. Ha is nov vorking as on instructor tn the KOA In the Area Studies Depsrtraent. He had been inongiveut things vere not going veil for him. Ttv-ro were no nPCIDFinVRAS there and even nov there is Insignificant activity there. It vas difficult to recruit Turks. Fight nov they bring in peoplehird country for contact vith the lu^IIEHTURAS inrrived in July5 end became the REZirERT. Ky official position V vaa"acting Military Attacheook over the whole agent operation net. 0: Whet rank did youieutenant Colonel or Colonel? S: aset am clarify this. At the end of the war Just prior tojny entry to ^beFruntens promoted to Lieutenant Colonelas promoted to full Colonel ines already valklng about eleven yearsull Colonel inO,6smdthey vlll never makeeneral. They have already aaid so and they hareas (Jokingly)llleneral In another army.

20. S: rrived In Turkey vith my vife end took over the nj?.IDRFTTURA. During the eouree of oneDPA3HEV turned over all the responsibilities to mead for my assistant CSTCJKP.CT, the Havel Attache, and at that time there vas no Air Attache. There vns an as siERIH, vho vns concerned vith air matters although he voe not the Airi^JWw months laterai or BAVCHEHKD arrived, but he arrived under the false none of PlHvTKO. Many of our people us* false nsmee| for exanjile, the^Bclen-tlfic and Technical Adviser to the Ambassador In Japanolonel STJCFTSV but that is not his real name. on't remember" his real nrne nov. 0: Do you remember General RWAJWOT? S:now him. G: Hla real name Is

ROSKRTH. 8: That's right.

7

AVCJIENK0 vma previously Military Attache In Afghanistan. This old non arrived) ha voo over eixty yeere of ago. urned over everything to him end he became theWecame his osslstont. orked until6 *nd then we hod aeoraprtxidBe. Thio took place three months after RAVCHEWtO'o orrlval end It referred to lieutenant Colonel fllkoleye van simply appro aching Turka in restaurants and offering them money to work for him. Si IOfOJnWlTO was attempting to purchase etllltary manuala from Turks ln this crude manner. Hoturelly the Turkiohvas efficient end they noticed this. ill confess to you the foilowing: Hy relations with the General end with IONCJCLfCO were extremely bedj they were trying to undermine me along Partylll ell you tho octal la of thio later. (Rotej Thiooat oellent theme ln Subject's recent life ond haa contributed slgnlfioently to his decision to approech the Weet. Specifically it involves hie life-long legend that bio father had died of typhus Actually hie father voe killed while fighting with the White Army against the Redsirst Lieutenant ln tbe City of Rostov. The significance of the fact Ileam accusation that Subject had deliberately concealed the true clrcumstancea end this accusationatter of record in hla GPU file). ade on anonymous telephone .collublic booth to tho Turkleh Counterira^Uigence informing them of IONCHRKO'e activltlea ond specifying where hie agent eontacto were made. Ci What vas his ronkl 8: Fieieutenant Colonel; his first namelkoley.

IOWCTICTKO vae very bitter against me. - he had1

tbe Turkish language ot the Academy he vas indignantith the Pnglieb language vne sent out to be the senior deputy to the REIlfW instead ofelf. Be was very friendly vith the General end they had become good frienda ln Moscowj both arrived in They both vera dead set against me end oade my life eo nloerableetter to Headquartersnyvhere. They repliedbould volt. Byengeful person but at leastasis of fairness. Even thenev bowaa beingad already decided to come over tomt to toko oath and to sign ey vilUngnaoo to serve you and spend the raot of my days, whatever they may be,ew life.

i Three months later IORCHKNKO was compromised end vooPersona Hon Grataeco^ahled "hTin through Istanbul and he went hom-vla Bulgarln. The Generalable to Headquarters stating that the Ticks and the Awricenorovocation against IOTCJKHKO ond while he wae purchasing fruit he was oelaed. Incidentally, et thio time tho Bhah and his wife were on an official visit and Turkish securityere intensively alert ln protecting the visitors. We even had Instructions from the GRU Chief, who woo SHALT* at that time, not to run any operations during that tine, hovever, the GeneralCIIF7KC to go out for on agentelnee one vas scheduled forh ofegnber the date since lt Is my nother'o birthday. The Incident actually occurred et the timeurkleh lieutenant was handingdli-tery manual.

Si m sitting la his office vhen the Wbeasy Duty Officer reported to tha Ofwrnl snd said. "Comrade General. youraeslstant heo been detained by the Turkleh Counfe to hie etterart toilitary annualurkleh officer." Tbe General eea completely upeet end told me to go to get him out. old, "Why did you let Mm an to thle neetine?" The operational funda ln Turkish lire were ln my heads, but the Ceneral gmro XCT1CTTOK0 money out of hie ovn pocket. ire to pay the Turkleh officer for the oenual were given end thia waa done soould not know about lt. ThisonelAerebJe sua and lt vas not taken from the operational fund ooouldn't knov. But olnoe thia eonpranlee occurred, the General admitted It to me. Wo had an argument. old hln that he had elvnys oceused on ofed operator, Inexperienced,ie vasable to Moscowsked him, "AreonounletT" when he answeredsked hln why he hod to lie. Be asked me to leave the office, eeying the affair vas none of my boeineos,aidould report on the natter through onother channel.

Ci ctually reported the incident through the KEB channel, our neighbor's channel. It vaa through TVP7-D? vho was then the KGD RFZrnRnT aboutn reporting to you now as the recruiter at the University of theee negroes who sre sent here from Africa to study otUniversity. TVy ore going to form powerful VT7-rrorrURAS. THSt* vesolonel. elieve, be has already been promoted to General.

Ho el so had been the KGB BXETTffST In India and hla cover position vascounselor. My cable was received by FOTOV, the eere BTTtOT Vho Isof OKU. emov Irsiedlately reported this cable to KhWMISttVeompTomlees enst be reported to the Frnesldlun, butroughtcable fromthen the Mini star end the

cable vent through the Chief of Staff, KWI-OTCKIT. KHRVT.fCnEV yeUed, "Whloh fool is the liar? (nubJeeVo true name) or the General? Figure thio out ond report." nd told the truth endould be accused of lospoken coarsely to tho General. But even then that vas because be vas olveye criticising re unjustly. iddve any rerrlra-nd, not even along the Party line, but the Tenerelevere reprlnundnconpetance ln duty, Shortly after my departure from Turkey he vns remoTCd and recently he voo discharged. Bfc is nov vorklng in the In-stltuto for Area Studiesepartment ehief. G: At that time FTtAIIF/ fi/ftj.i* ves the chief of OHUr G: Tea, yes. STPnV only ccrno In after STCTHOKOj ndre then the chief of YT-Bhe had so of then rerjeraSe'red my nrw be cause of the cable. We cell them neighbors snd they refer to uo as nearest neighbors.

3b. Si Well then, awntlemen, up tooe still vorklng there. alled tha Turkleh Counterlntalllgene* onornrrvT-isly once more and et that tine thereh military exhibit. There vasat at ant an- officer, you may remember him, his name vns FA Tiff, vho together vith rrae Bulgcrinn orientsilitary rvnuhlT" Thepoke toon the phone eaid to no in dear Fnglishhould drop"ln"to speak vith hln,efuond beoeuse ot thataa still undecided. ns nottohould appear, but of couree if thea_thcy hod made thio ccusatlon vith respect to ry father and hnd expressed politlcsi distrust,

I probably would oevwr here gone beck tcB evenelled up thli last time on the Vth ofS. Tu cen eheck thli since the cell Hurt have been officially recorded.

i Co theeft Turkey by train toward the fttrt enter-Ing the irJEH rle Aroenle. Upon errlrlng In Hoseov both SHALIIumped on ee. Fvidently thle aAVCRrje^FUBTjWO le their eloee friend. Bs had sent then ell binds of gifts end they had drunk Todka end vine together. They vera Indignant thatenot-noeed* young colonel could herethat way vltb respecteneral. They aaeurmdented to trip up the general in order to be the rdlltery attache in Turkey. To tell the truth,ns acting military attochn there ves more organisation than under the py-nernlould hmre run the agent net efTectlvoly.wear to you that that vns not my motive evanould have liked to hare been the military ettaohe.ine ves served end,ery dry, rdld Uebfreumlleh ves the only boverege consumed throughout all meetings.)

i Could you help no fill out eome nnmee and patronynletreview the orgealitntlon of CRD*! St Tea, I'll be glad to. first oflehe Second Chief Intelligence Directorate of the Generalehlef Is BJSOY. The deputies ere now Cen- Lett. WJtSURTT end Gen. Oi Ia PCOOV the one who Is the deputy for all administrative ss)the one responsible for sdminletratlve nattaro, but RCtrjV la

tbe one for operational matters. All cob Let go.

t At one tine did you nottaff for Ftreteglevhlch vaa herdedirol, but later thle ves changed again* S: Essentially ve here atrr.teglc.lntelllgence, operational intelligence, and mllltery InteUlgene* (vrfTIKPVATA). Many ewrsli and admirals here left Strategle Intelligence end here joined Operational Intelligence.

i The First mrectorntehat le the directomt* of vrjoTTXTV. Belce-admlrel. The Secondieutenant general -Is the one Involved with itrstegie Intelligence on Rurope. The chief Is Cen. Ielt. KCZVTtMiCV. this includes Bcandirenria. Gi Vhat are their names and patronymics? St ever tried to remember them. We alvuye addressed them anenrrnl. ill get then for you later. ong time the deputy to Oen. sXaTJFALOT vra Gen. Haior MPLKISRTTV, en sir force officer. Huthere vns Gen. KIKLKWXt I'll tell you vhat happened about him later. That vaa otUl at the tine that BUTRflOTCO vns chief and SHALIH was hla deputy, snd Inter FJCMDl beeone chief again] he beeeoe. SIP1TJT ia, but is still alive. KTJ'ltoco vas discharged.

i Row, On. MnJUSBEV beenme the ehlef of the Fourth Direo-torate which la the Eastern Directorate of Strategic Irrtelliflrncn. TCV. IOT0V, Oen. Halor, hadilitary attache ln Italy end in France end he vill go as the military attache to Bungary onh of May. Our Strategic Intelligence Directorates ere all on the fourth end fifth floors. Haw th* Third Directorate ln the Directorate of Cen. Malor SWOLOV. It is the Anglo-/Fierican Directorate. o nov under! of thle directoratem sitting ln the Canadian Section of the

s

ond ourT. eonaJtxW of officers vho are vorking under cover in Moscow. We hovetotal offficers Including myself. In all Ministries vhieh have any foreign reletions, there ere strategic intelligence officers. Aa Bombers of these ministries and eoranitteee thereof they have contact with ond conduct intelligence egnlnst visiting foreign delegations, tourists, lecturero, etc..

ho. here laifth Directorate. The chief of thisis the forner chief of the MDA of vhfri youave reodnded no -ATXIlvTTOJV. Thle directorate Is concerned vith the placevent ofall countries Including the countries of People'a Detiocraotea, and theof dlrerslonietB groups. This directorate studies all criticales bridgea, tunnels, etc. and enelyraa drop tones for large eeelefor Oenernl Staff use as veil en small group operations forgroups. Oi Are they nov erignged In sabotage activities? Si ere not nov engaged In sobotage activities, but they do hove theand placed in critical areas vhere they vill net vrrm the order 0: In all countries, inclndlng the nonocracles? Si/'In allin the Democracies lt isifferent nature, like otsy-behind,do not ocsvluet active inteUigenee against the rteaocroelee. We here aof _the_pencrel 8taff jyhlch deals with all nctter* oferacie8 traxrugh_the_rDllitary attachescontrols the delivery of all rocket weapons, in the eountrles

hi. n this year all countries of People's rwoocraeies isust be fiUTiished rocket weapons. VAPJSTTTSOV end his" people are also working on the development of bones, etorage areas, launching sites, end the training of cadres for the countries of People's Dwrorneies. The rockets vhieh ve am nov delivering to those countries ere those vhieh are nov being meas-inroauced such aol nboutave you e. report. This one, and In addition all those vhich are oh production lines, ore being given to China and all other countries of People's Demoerecies. (fiotei Later Subject emphasized that Al.brnls van the one exception, due to tho recent "revisdonlatlo"of Oen. Enver HOXBA.)

kS. he DDR ve nov have four brigades end of these tvo brigades already are equipped vith atomic vorherds. They also have spoelel storage facilities ond the engineers of tho Artillery Academy Dterxhinskogo are vork-ing on thlBj^Tnio Academy is now In tho hands ofTKD, vhlch oeeurrsd after the accidental death of Marshal RRDELU? dueocket disaster. Bwt vns not an aircraft accident. The reportig lie deliberately reported to the vorld. lll give you ell details of this separately. ittle ebout thisust odd to It because lt ia intposolble to wit* ell details.

Oi let ne fill out the OHU orijanirational chart.iven you five directorates, end there is no Sixth Directorate so designated. Thereeparate Fighth OTDEL colled tbe Coding Section and there ere Rear Servieeo units (STlFJOjf TTLA) vhlch provide loclstical support such asand even dianonda end gold for agent operations.

ZA

bh. Ct Vhat nmJBer does thu Operational Mreotorate have? nder eJW-UH that vaa the Sixth PIractorete, nut nov lt is being changed. Bbwerer, it Is under BEROV end nay not be of quite the stature of an UPR7VLWrTA nov. They control all of the Rp mints ln all of the nllitary districts and vith the Croups of Soviet Forces ond theyual mdxrrdlnotion. They report to the bendquerters of the various military districts and also to us ln headquarters. But,nderstand the structure nov, It is not of the oerje stature as an UFRAVIEHITA os it had been before. Oftenelligenoe officers are transferred to Operational Intelligence. ememberms to Turkeyeft ond worked with thio Oen. SAVCHESTOhile end did some thing vrong vith money endriticism along Party lines and vas transferred to an RP Point in Lenlnokan. Ot Is the chief still Cen. SHER3THEVT S; Tea, thot le right, but it le no longer enould cellroup (GRUPPA) of Operational Intelligenee. ecently heard, however, thatTINT vill not be there any longer. Oi What Is RCHMrjvaciT doing now? Vlll he be tho nev chief/ Who is tha nev Intelligence chief in Germany? St ememberVAi"f'e norao,on't knov whore he is. The nev chief in Germanyieutenant general. ill remerfcer hie nemo In tho course of convertetIon. It escapes mo right new. he did not get slang vith SHT3<KHK0 vho sent him out.

*5. Ct Let me Seethereumber of other services, end the KDA Is olso under ffEROV. Bow the course is only three yearn end tbe present student complement ln the incoming class le sixty etivionts. The graduating class has ninety students and the second close has eovnnty to seventy-five studentb. Dais last close io tbe one forelected the students.as ot tho Academy thereonvtrod students, actually ninety-eight since tvo were suomnrlly dismissed for political reasons. Tfcnt the classes are smaller becnueo therearge number of KOA graduates already vho ere members of Strategic Intelligence, nov our neighbors, tbe KGB, take almost half of our graduates, at any rote, eooovtaere betweeno OOJ. The KBB does notormal academy of their ovn for training their Intelligence officers, but they do have intelligence missions abroad, primarily elona political intelligence and technical intelligence lines. They take cadres from our academy end ln onoemember, they took upf tho graduates. umber of those vho graduated vith ne were token by KGB. ry be able to identifyuribor of them from photographsnov vhat cover many of them operate under.

bo*. Si well, hiw^jreturned from Turkey, GBALIH end KISXJTKO Jumped on me. They accused me of having geneeelings vith the general which voe harnrful for the GRU effort there end served no useful Basically, thoyas right,oo not right to hove behovedooligan manner vith Mm. They enld further thateneral in the GRU vented to work vith mo because, 'youattle teleurther-more, you vent out of channels. Why did you report this to SKROVt Tonus in the eyes of our neighbors." So, since no one vented to vark vith me, vheto? ent to VARKBTGC7. Re told mo to volt evhlle -until things blew over. ven vehTto pec SBTF1CTPC0 oevernl times. Be told me that he didn't knov me endndacae vith my associates thct he could do nothing for me. Shot vss logical since, efter-oll, SnALIIt_vno hie deputy. Ho couldn't go against his deputy vhom hefor his operational experience. After ell, SHTOJEHKO hod been Chief of the General Staff end previously hadilitary district

ie

cceraender, but bis knowledge of intelligence setters vns so-so. Thus BITTKMFTKO end BHALIH rejected *nd KIBLfilKO vaa preparing to retire.

S: By the vay, excuseust ranembcred. After KISLEHKO, the Gen. Kelor vho took over the Fourth'll recvrBber his name Ine Is nov tha deputy to KBLOPOV vho is the Chief of the MDA. Be Is the deputy for scientific research there. Still earlier, before he turned over the Fourth Directorate of ZOTOY, he had been the chief of the Mllit cry DlplooBtlo Service Faculty of the MDA.

: ong tine they kept me In the OKU reserves. ne Intermittent assignments and then returned roe to the reserves. until the time KffltUSBCHBV FJDfJSBChTV vasZflUXDVclosely asBOciated vith ZDJJKOV. And BUTEMEIKO,

vlthout the knovledge Of KKPU8HCHOT, on hla own initiativeiver-alpnlsts' school, ZHUKOV knev about this. When &BUKDV stated, "The army vlll folio*SiCBTV took action and it vaa discovered that SH25WIHKD andarge sabotage school In their hands. It vns located near Tula. About tvo hundred specialists were being trained thereUSBTJTDTV thought thst these could be let looee against hire. Scraehov this did not get to KItRUSRCHCT since the Ministry allocated the funds end the inforr-atlon did not go up to the Praeeidium. fC0 vns removed and sent aa the deputy ccemandor of the military district with headquarters in Sverdlovsk.

e98: uet remembered vho this Oen. Mai oraentioned earlier vho hod taken over tha Fourth Directorate. It vas Gen.Mnlor LYAFJfTEBOV. Qi Previously be badenior instructor ot the HDA. S: That's right and later heepartment head. Tou knov these people very veil. Oi Did you ever hearol. PAPPE vho is on instructor there? Si Tes, be is an instructor there, but he has recently been dismissed. By the way,ho Iseneral FOIKCVHTK le the deputy comander of the Ural MilitaryDistrict vith headqiTortera at Sverdlovsk end previously he vos the commander / ^of the Voronezh Military District. Four Ellitory districts hove since been consolidated.

: In9ater meeting Subject corrected thlo toas sent to the courses at tho Military Academy lmeni Dzershlnakogo. These vere called the courses of the General Staff for the study of nov technology. Under BEDKLIN the entire Academy Doershlnskogo on Selyankayou know vhere that 1b. Previously this vas purely an artillery academy, but nov it is an academy for rocket artillery and is under tho control of He come in after tbe death of HEDELIH and hod been the former commander of the Moscow Military District. She Academy does not train any officers in conventional rifled artillery at all. There were "four faculties at this Academy and nov there ere five. Thereev faculty on electronics and radio technology.

Oi What ia the formal namehe Acedeenr? 81 Zt la tha Military Artillery Engineering Academy laeni Dxerihlnskogo. There are nov students there. Many easy-tie young off lev re of the elrnd of tbe nary who had some minimum technical ability were not demobilised In the general reduction proaxsm hut were sent to thia Academy. The students are trained asnd engineers in "the employment of all. types or rocket weapons. Specialists are particularly trained to service the roeketa on their testing pads prior to launching. Tali training lo under theof very experienced engineers of when there are not toobout thirty or forty. raduated fron thesevith distinction. The courses are given annually and ar* given even today, hut th* continuous duration of the annual coursea is actually Bine

Si raduated0ter. cun ceteddlately after graduation,ho had been informed of ay progress, suggestedo to India ainee India is eonsldered to be our territory, that is, we right want to conduct operations in that territory lo tbe futuro. Therefore, lt would be desirable that en officer with anr_ background in roeketa should be sent then, since lt is possible that in the not too distant future rockets may be given to India. as alnost completely processed to go. PAVLOV had been the military attachee has since been removed -

snd now therelea. Malor whoroop cOrmonder there. rote about this nev tendency of not having Intelligence of fleers occupy the slot of military attaobo And since the new military attachee do not need to hov- any intelligence background to fulfill their functions, they take people from troops Just 'Junk' who have no language or area knovledge.eneral to represent the Armedf tbe Soviet Iriioa.eneral vas sent there and his senior assistantlassmate of nine. I'll remember his nameoment. Justas all set toas called out hy Cen. Hoi or STMiryJT who Is the deputy to (Ton. Lett. BhYJLZECV. The latter was just promoted to Oen. Lett.jo and heeds the large Personnel Directorate. Bt is also the enief of the Person-mi Sect lorn of Operational Intelligence, Behole breakdown there. They are really WPWVLEnrfE. Ths Personnel Directorate is another directorate Just like the ones ve have listed and is port of th* CPU.

'- 8: There wre all kinds of snail changes in subordination oxV. It It y chenee thet ooa era find ct vhat goes on ln another depmrbrvrnt. forannot us* ny para to enter the Tint Directorate of tbe General Btafl the Operational niraetnrete.

57. 8t Veil then, they did not eend pr to India. ns very dlsappoli about thle and vas very vorrled. To be quit* honest vith you, ny disaffection vltb the vhole political aysttn beganonggo. isagreed vith seny facets of life thereI vill not bother you by listing categories, but the vhole set-up voe one of deeiegogery, idle talk end deceit of th* people. The people were uniting patientlyong tire and no* they am tiredtlng and they *re restless. Actually, rJtr?JTHTT7 to eon* degree has decreased th* RGB control*. Knny person* hare been rehabilitated or reeerred regret lea, end nov ooa em say certainot everything of course, vlthout beingarrested ss vss the esse in the pest, of course. If thle Is done toan cen be ejected froo the party. an be arrested ard, of course, hie vorklng future vould be lirlted.

58. Si Thereifficult situation in the country right now. EverythingsuborjUmted to the armaments race, endreat deal of money, Villi oca, ace been spent to sustain the eountriea of Peoples' Dero-eraeiee". China has beenreat Seal emR HW everything le directed to mjulpplng our forcea with rockete. Everything is going forn thia reapeet they bare alreadyresure ofonere already proven and aone are not yet properly aerelopad. Thedeficiencya the field of electronic a. On- rein launching teatapuBtln Tar and the impact area ie in KerekhataB. There were very aany cane* where rocket* had struck rallroedeettlexenthey had deviated from their assigned eourse.

53- St reat effort Is new bHng aadei they here aobiUsedhe roet cutstanding ones. Coca of them hare received fouras Bcroee of Socialist labor, sadarer appear in newsprint, photographically or otherwise. They mey beonly on occasion at Party Congresses. Theyvail circle end are given no publicity. There are little scttlecmnt* (OOROTKI) aw Koacow and there Is one OCflCOTjln which Gorman scientist* live. These are th* ones vho were Involved "in the dwiojornt of. Thene German* are usedreat extent and they am very veil subsidised vith th* comfort* of life Including eutomoblles. Their find ilea ere vith them end they here special schools for their children. similarly all other scientists ere kept Isolated and in secrecy.

Vhen thle accident befell TF&ajX, they vera testing * rocket./By th* vey, vhen the BPuTWDC wasvt* vith arocket. The fuel ve*rote up theof the fuel. Tho very first STVmTX was launched vith the helpCET) of rockets. Theara Joined together

In acluater. lll drew vhat this cluster locked like. Theof the roeket^vasons of vhlch the weight of tha fuelout st ending engineer told ne about thistudying et

the Rocketoron vns one of the Vasl* fuel ecr*rnvtntsVnnd this vas being tested for th* actionev type of fuel, nomely, by the fission of

7hBoccurred because the upper portion of the rocket vas Ignited. This upper portion, upon being set off, fell toward the eerth and en explosion took place. vera killed, end among them ves Hmxi.IR^ JuatUR ves launched vith the helparg-two-rtnge rocket. They say that the overall length ofocket ishey ere erectedpecial hoist and tower and hare their own launching pad*. Those launching pads are specialot the typeere described for the ordinary free rockets end guided missiles. Thle la the field of endeavor nov. .

Let r- finish my thought novill be cut ofvns thlnkl^j*oldierev amy, todeal, and in eome ceesure, to avenge my fatherof other people who hero perishederribles veil as

for my close ralat ire a, etc.. hought that word* are, afternll. Just words,hould brine something tangible from the placeas the

bead of my class of eighty stvdentt. Byean that though there vns en osnlnned colonel who ve* the aeti*nlI acted e* theeeent of the r' At anyertain mi.ort of authority. Hy own studies vere c* rt standad th* opportunity ofjooks r- veil it e'ceatfled leet'irew from the speciale classifiedy meansad the? oypert'tnity of vor&lng Independently. adnotebookven blocked the door byhair nnder the knoby If anyoneould elide evelything Into ay brlefcese vhieh vas sealed,ould simply sayas studying. Oi And this is the fw-nuoT In vMeh you wrote up ell of your material? Bt opied everything down snd, not having cny casern, thla writingery lone tins. 0: /ad what tine period did this cover: his vns done aho-lnc my eonrses. Everything vas done consecutivelyid most of this writing In the evening. Ve vera first taught free roeketa, then guidednd them all typos of launching equipment andcheeking at various stages. Then v* vr- givenraduated vith distinction *ndertlficnteow here home endon shov you, if yeu like.

Old you ever study Cli's* lit Bo, ve did not study

then.en tell yen this. There is nothing at all thet is unusual about than. All tVse_IC7fti end th" roeketa for launching humans Into orbit are eona true ted in eaovrtly the trm vry as th* others except that they are rrwKTsxgmr and have very large fuel capacity toreater thrust. The vorklng principles hcverer ere Identical. Thus thla latest rjVTBIF. was launchedoefcet of. ltrpeorVtng on th* sane It vnsvo-stage rocket,hree-otng* rocket.

f<3. n: fx* the goldence oyrtens for those large ICBris not yet perfected; 0; The_olectronlcs dereionej-nt is far behind. They ore struggling vith this. The foreign SaTe^nfcion* vho com to visitndust say that the Arnrlcnn people ereery vise thinJToy cutting down on th- mmher of eeleatlficelegation* end contacts. The Prltiah are not yt doing this. There arer-rt number of deleertiono going to Englandreet nunber condne to na frco England. Ofo not know, nor I* it any of ry bualncae to ennjectare on whetrives fronisits,an ahow yeu theportsrrv in ny hands at theoT exmmple, there ere tv-nty-tvo itenanrW.ff'.ff'lBIl) exclusively onic rubber which is of great internet to us nov since ve hare hadn its production. The Crnrdian firs, the PO'TTT. Corporation, was visited and seny probleeui vere clarified.

Pj alvays gat tectmieol briefings for conducting tech-nice'oe. Vhen ourd technicians are sent, they don't tell then to spy. Sney sdnply era* 'to study* the problem and to adopt any useful process into their own ireuiotry. So they give thenree ticket, and send then off to study proeeaees which earn be usefully Installed- own Industries. m Judge only by tho twenty-two reportey hands vhmt s'wrtBipJit^rmas and blindness there is to permit seeees

bov they vill permit oar people to attend vleotrxleration* here ln nogland euch ae Pleeey, Vtuiand anothernana is Ico Tvo lowsbers of ny delegation are veryln tMo field. They vlll certainly pick up something of volua evenfire* vlll be careful not to divulge their accrete. Bbvorer, aloeeof our* ere experienced end they will be ohovn various thing*,they wiU be obi* to find oonethins of value. It artcuofls ne novof these thine* am ehovn In oerteln fme countries. It le not for ee

to criticise, butow conoidorepreeentativo of the Pre* Worldeelave tbe right to criticiseiah.

Well then*ill opeak about tho Cocedtt**later vith respect to ito. The Ccerdtteo bao now beooae Before, it ve* the GovernmenthnfoBlovthe COTcrnccnt Ccmndtteeof the Council of Ittaieter* of the DBS* onof Ecientiflo-Technical Work. Kn^imil'ffrV becene the chief. Ua

lo the depirty to WcW^fcHt.'V, that lo, one ofdeputies, what thio neano lootlll grenter efrort io being mad* to assign nleeloos with en lupi nvebbntt In ftdrilnlotrotive lender*hip in order to otlll further activate oeientlfie inteUleence through the overt legal oeientlfie delegation* ofherefore in thn future if occeso lo given to theaeould eonaider this to be ehrrrteightedneefl,nderetand that ell of thle ernnot be broken off suddenly. After all, many firms are engaged in normal trade relation*. AJvevvr, there ehould be reiny oma* that ore of no aeientlflc interest or value. For fooogile, where do ve paredt foreign specialists to got We have many open installation* where very little, if anything, of value vould be dlocovered bylolt them, ffeiefuie mpmerrrtetivos at capitalist countries ore ehovnnstaHatlone. If requests are none to ee* sonething that is raeJly of value, oU kinds of excuses are given ouchridge le closed, or repairs are being cede, or anything to serve os an excuse. The legend Is sonatinas so stupid that your people see through it, but Just the eerae they am not permitted to eee whet they vent. Fven though your people cry find something ofa gure that it lo not cociparchl* to that which our scientists pick up.

T-0. Gi Would you know of the location of any nleoilo bases vhlch eey be planned or under construction oven though they ar- notn uae, that le, base* which ean theoretically be used enlcurmhlnghether they ere fully equipped or not1 81 Ao you oust realise, suchor* kept In utmost secrecy. In our Directorate tbe only one* vho would

Pi

knov about theea would ba BSOT and tha directorate chief a. oubt Ifwould know it. ntowever, our country la full of rune-re. snple, that bases endhat is, rocket troops, forEngland are located north of Leningrad/toward Murnepa/ann to The exact coordlnatee of their location are knowneryof people arid the data lies in underground safes in the Arbatare many thingsust report to you, andTereri thoughens free- time to time, atill expand on then. Staff of the Ministry of Defense is located In the Arbat area,in the blocks bounded by Frunso Street, OogoleTskiy Boulevard,TOW1UX. (Bote: See nap of Moscow.) This should allup with small, two klloton

69. 0: Please trace for ste your path when you go to the GRU from the Arbat subway. S: First you pass through thla little tunnel. Then there are three pass office* for various building*. In the first building her* sits Gen.TJL0V. He is the chief of tbe Foreign Relations Section of the Ministry of Defense. He is an intelligence officer end formerly the obief of my class at the MDA.

J*V

K

v.

l1

i

B: By th* way, the General Staff of the Minis tryofPefe

connected to the gremlin by meansubway tunnel, Tou probably know that there are two ArSit subway sUtions, the bid one and the nev on*. Th* tunnel lends from the new station to the Kremlin. The Minister of Defense and the Chief of the general Staff have offices In the Kr*alin adjacent to theoffices and they use these whenever neoessary. When they are not making reporta in the Kremlin their'headquarter* are in the Arbat area. Thsy go back and forth -either by car or by subwaypecial subvay oar. Ther* are underground safes her* which can be opened only by registering. Thise,!lbl' oniygeneral officer* at the direction of the General stair. The normal operational charts by military districts are maintained by operations officerseparote area.

71- (Subject spotted on the Moscow sap the headquarter* of th* FTO of the Country which is under Marshal BIKrUZOV.) 8: The command points ofre located in the basement of the Lomonoeov university In the Lenin hiiia, and another command point which is really th* Command Point of the Moeeov Defense Zone le on Kirov Street, next to the Kirov subvay station.

7?' S: In the seme group of buildings vith the FVO of the Country is th. ha^uaxters of OAU, th* chief of which Is nov Oen. Polk. ZHDATOV. Formerly the ehleTwss Marshal TAKDTLIV whom BTALfif rnsevedT because ofof enti-aireraft artillery caused by overheating. For ebout thre* years after the end of the war there were no adequate nnti-aircraft guns. They had installed liner, and had cooling systems, and in addition thereSSTS! vMoh VDUldly break. Due to these failures, warding whichas accused of deceit, he was removed. If at that Use bombing attacks had been nade, there would have been no adequate automatic anti-aircraft artillery to defend Moscow. Row they do have autooatia AAA. At one tin*

M th" deputyI5?UMV# nov he le being retired for reasons or neaxta.

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73- la thee* also ax* located thaoc tors t* and the CMef Jdrectcrata lor Military Training. Thn Chemical Mrwctcrat* Is also there. On fed nquar* opposite the Kreouln in thatSecondhe Chief Medical Id recto rate la located, os wall as the rear terries* rarectornt* inchuteaotiVe,o short, the Poorhe reasonention this to you new,ill mention it *Hsdn later. Is thattrategicradost* of tvo ecadeales, and baring sorted for *on*n the Generalnow vhat the sensitive *pot* are.a ecorlnoed that my rt*vpoint Is absolutely aorrect, naraaly that In ease offatar* war,our plus tvo alnute* all of thee* critical target* eachth* General Staff, th* KGB Heedraarter* oa PsershinsXly Oeunre, th* Central Ceeadtte* of the Party vhlch organise* everything and elmiler target* mast allblown up by snrerle prepoaltloncd bonbs, rather than hy seen* of aircraft bombs or rocket* which eay or nay not hit the vital targets.

Sr In our Soviet Aray v*iveanhigherut they bav* not been able ton*are still vorklng on it. nov this exactly. h>

Such vcvms vould not need to b* set within theanny adjacent building* when* they can te coocealed. nvellings *nd stores are adjacent, for example, thor*argenM next to the eedejiierters has seven bsrervxtts iny peopl* bar* been ns*cut*d. They also hove eight or nine floors above tha ground. on't renumber how many.

75- St mall group of saboteur*with such veepons should plant then governedime swehnrdm in the locations froa vhlch all of these heivipjnrtera cante destroyed. Irrespective of what other attacks will be madecur, thee* eesenUal headquarters must be destroyed by planted bomb*. All military district headquartersbe destroyed. ead-Quarters cen be eeally spotted in every avrj-rr city. They or* easy to find lu leningrnd, Sverdlovsk, Vorocerah,ive thee* sa exsrclr*. All one would need vould b* oo* earno thle per solitary district. This voold destroy tho BrfciUsatlonsl and orcerd rati one! directorates vhlch ar* the tackhooe of the arwy. If thee* hwndnuarter* of the General Staff and there destroyed, this will reduo* th* combat strength of th* Soviet Arayery :rr*et dorr**. umber of month* would be required to nesenbl*or lea* experienced men fron th* rqnerve*. rurthernore, not all ofan b* trusted lib* ones now Bitting In the headquarter*. The oomplet* die-orosrdwtion that vould be created could permit tbe executionilitary decision.

E: SLoaW1wU to aeetray also all cfO-.ATX of to'AS^. These are all easy to locate, OTSIKOHATT are also located th* records end personnel of the city, RATCfl, and even settlonant vorwerw-y. The latter ore responsible for mobilising the rilleg* draftee. Of course It le difficult toendquartere down to that level, but to deetrey the headquarters of the CTOASTb,f vhlch there or* eighteen ornd the prise handqunrter* objeetivos Is mendatory. Tb*

Cereans did very little damage. ev minor fires and broken roots aad glass, but tb* staffs remained in operation. This vaa duo to Inaccurate bombing. But nov possessing atonic veapona, anall else veapona of one or tvo kilctoee aa required can destroy thee* vital targets completely. The exact timing for this destruction li up to the big people vho hove to soke tbe decisions.

Si Bet please give a* your opiniontrategic Drtelllgence

j officer, nov your soldier, your worker ready to fulfill any ales loos youssign to sm> nov and In the future. sk is for you to protect nynly hove three persons oloee to ne, ay vlfe, ay sother, end nyould be happy nov to go to England or America ay self,annot leave them behind. Zt vould drive ne insane In tine thinking about thisesve them behind. ove toasla for ay future existenceelieveon serve you most usefully in place for atear or tvo, particularlyere to workpecific directive set by you to fulfill missions vhieh vould he vith in ay capability to accomplish. ave aaid above about destroying our headquarters is ny opinion.

T&. Oi Vith respect to what you have asked oa, ve are eompletely prepared to grant you your minimum requests. Of thla there la no question, and it is Boot gratifying to ao to realise that you eon still eoutlene to work insideear or two. We een giro you In band whsou need end the bolsace we eaa deposit for you in th* bank. Wot only wiU this he en sceumulatlon of monthly payments, but after yon hare Joined us, ve vlll review your entire scope of activities. S: That's right. Justasis (nest-egg). ee in your faces official, responsible high stature workers, my comrades, end also being an intelligencenow how to vat people (ZAJJUrlTAT1). There is no need to keep things ia the dark, so one needs this. ish that your governments,onsider them both nyto trust ne es their own soldier. It doesn't natter whether you f colomle or not. m still full of energy, although as WTBaT may how reported toere been nervous recently;ere this eye disturbanceieked up in Turkey, el though my vision is perfeet.

79. Si My request to you is thiset npefinite, arterial basis. In general.en of sons substance. aveolonel now for eleven years. 0 rubles parX> (old rubles). ave an arertment withewitems. are beenregimental commander,ere also been abroad. Everything is legended normally for me to here somathlng. arried theofGeneral Lei tenant vho had givenot of money, and lo gersrral my etendard of living is good. ould like toliya^ysn hotter, and to foramily. Thia la ell explained at hbW easily because anyone who has been abroad would normally esquire all sorts of things to bring back. These things are acquired from one's own savings. As you well know, there are many things completely unavailable In the USSR and others that are extremely expensive.

ould like toertain amount on hand, aboutould Ilk* to eoneult vithas thinking ofQA Just outside of Hoacow. odest DACHA is entirely normal for eommone of my age

A

statu*. Thia would eoet0n new aoney. After returningens, butriding eround inold Itouldn't get partees thinking aboutOLGA. All ay comrades here cars. froa to- snail earinga end thesually spendit on ay fanlly end to go out to restaurants- a not aa aeeetic-

Si ould Ilk* to doo sveer an oath of aUvgtane* to you, to giveigned etatneent errl to wear an oath In order toour relationship. Peeondly, to vorkoreun!rations systea vltb me vlthout personal reetlng*Torldlag me vith deed drop*en pass materials. ould prefer not to meet vltb err/one. id bare th* desire before of meeting vith sn Americanritish representative and to oak them to take re off somewhere ore might. Out CcunterlnteUigene*ot operating es Intensively a* itn. People are caught prinerily becsus* of crude errors, gov that ve bare set, thank Cod ere begun to bolter* ln Codv* eon consult on ell these things together, sndould Ilk* to avoid personal nestings.

Bi It would b* veilould remain vith the Costtltte* for

the time being. ereossible trip to Canada in shout threeaddition, onth of rky,Is arriving from Australia. Iassigned to that country. In the Pall they vent to send a* tohovever, they issuedassport vith great difficulty. undecided. Pore believe In me ond considerave bran asinceui deeorsted in theegimental ecsessnderhigher educations. Thry even sent am to th* rocket school. reat nunber of friends ond saury of them blgh-ranklng both ln thein the Artillery. He ere such closeuTTPScv and I,* *oup beforere* his. lready told you abortwith Hln*. At any rate, we are close friends. VAPXKTOQV evenebout me to 6FJ10T.

Incidentally,STHCT nor YAmrrsCY knoway father or that this srehlra* neterial has been Theyknowe* held book la Moeeov. eld slnply that the, pretendingidn't vant to go thare myself, althoughalready given my consent to go. ethers, however, waver andIt la not rightonolte Army officer Bhould have There Is no such thing as tha democracy they speak about. It

leieluff. Thuson maintain myself because theycannot eimply dlsnles me forould hove every reason to gothe other side. They vould have to Isolateand keep est under Bight nov my work is going veil. m receivingmwm -vwtaTy rewards. ust develop ay work In order toI have extensive agrrt contact cepebllltles ln the field ofscience, a* veil es for th* GJfU.

i IM thU ovtThi. Ifl

0 th. Comwnlrt Tarty. '

that .tdinner party given by

7

r. of Strot-gie Rocket Pore... fficer.. oiithere. Ther. vereb!ToJ- JTvI' tbe" lnvould go there byt

If w5 rSlrj^fT fs'lll^fs?^ VAKFNTSOTov theI. both guided roeXet.

ter. of oilochet.a

Julrt**, On the oeooud of

or^oralng ral.-

Iurlou. rtatnnnt and

rtwn* fro- the ira rho

M re^H;

-I? J"len ^va. oent toR. He ve.

oMoood^rtead of wSgT

iwb issarssr

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fit Let ua go further. ct* here oa the BB-Vf. Thi* wee brought down hy roeketa fired ThU KTO le equipped with fourvo upper rockets and tvo lover rocket*. The rocket*oning device* their rangeetween four and five kilometer*. Theish to mokehi*. Vhen the plaiie rise* to an altitude of betveeno SOt atlU haa the capability of firing an additional four to five kUcraetera higher. Therefore when nOdrjBCKEV aaid that our planeean reach over SOven though ve have nohieh eaa do thla yethey are still experimentingthe striking cellingctually aboveilometer* vhen one oonslder* tbe additional four to five kilometer range of th* rocket. Anyway, theocket at th*on soy vith full assuranceov* checked thla vith many source a, that the RB-Vj did not violate our border* although it vas close. It vas actually over neutral Vetera. Our pilot had Itchy trigger fingers and fired the rocket vhich knocked it down. The length of the rocket is three meter*. Only the two upper or the tvo lower rockets may be fired atmul tfuvKnialy- otherwise .the plane vould break up.

09. Bt Thereown called Kllntsy., Aero atonic warheads ore assembled.old you earlier that there ore rocket bases north of Leningrad directed anatnet England. Thereity calledVO regiment is stationed Store. This regiment Is sauipped5 rockets.

Bt Vhen asked about Ooviet intelligence officers, Subject said, "If you would only ohovet of photographs, we vouldot of good workanretty large mrbir, well over a 0: Are you personally ae-ntalnted vith any illegal* at all! Bt an tell you about those vho hov* returned fronork forsuch an this nan from the German areaCTTBAKCV)ho areof the present incoming MOA else*. an also tell you vhieh of my classmate* ere being troined e* illegals. But whether they were cUspatehed out oro not know. Th* OBU has many eovert Installations such a* those used for training illegal*. All of thisandled by the First

91. Oi If you hare time it would be vary helpful if you could write out the names, ranks, end what you know briefly about other OKUarticularly your ownou probablyhem better than others. Bt Thar* wereraduates in sty classam probablyarge number Of these. Let mearticularly effective end den^rous Intelligence officer. Bjr ve* previously In England in the APPABAT of tbe Military Attache and be graduated with ne. Ms nameol. FFDOHOT. Ho Is on artillery engineer. Bight nov he is Military Attache *omevher* in the Scandinavian area. Re has many agents. illot of officers vho have extensive apmnt contacts. n prepared to giveist of 15 agents vho are presently located in Ceylon, Pakistan, and India. Those in India are prosently on conservation. aw all thi* material.

92. Ot According to your time echaduleyou have ebout twenty minutes left. Ve can't cover everything In thle session. ope you don't Bindnterrupt you from tine to tine anduestion. 6: Rot et all. Thatery good Idea because it helps sje to renereber. Pleasect of hotographs for re for Identification. Row as to the tenthave on ny agenda,ave already mentioned, that ie, about vhat ahould be Ifill take the mission upon myself to blov up the General Staff (Jokingly) .

93- B: Bare Is another nev item. Thereew rocket. It | called the RK-lb. Itong-range rocket,ilometers. I | no data on It. (Subject repeats again hov easy it vould be to blov up General Staff.) This rocket Is fired from Kapustin Tar, and the impactKatokhstan. The impact area eonalate of high wooden towers vhlch area trlangulatlon pattern. Soldiers man these towers and there hasXomr has been struckirect bitocket. The

> rockets fell at different points which are then re-sected with opticalto determine the errore ln lateral deviation ae veil ss errors lnare radio conrjunications for relaying the moment rockets arealready mentioned that there were many cases where rockets struck

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9*. S: Let's see what else my notese. eath, the second stage Ignited prematurely. It broke through the" lower stage and en explosion resulted whicharge number of eelentlsts. Thesewere the ones who were engaged inev type of fuel vhlchmail storage space and operated on the principle of atomic fission in the rocket engine. Thia is what our scientists are vorklng on nov and they havemail degree of progress. Although nothing has been perfected this is the boslc idea on vnich they are vorklng. The purpose le to eliminate i * *pftC0 "quired for the fuel tanka and oxldlter tanks byighter end smaller fuel component and possiblyarger varhesd for conventional explosive as well es atomic typee.

ery large rocket using atomic energy for retire power was being tested vhen KBDELUI vas killed. Ifc was in the ehelter emember Its exact designation, but iteep reinforced concrete structure where people sit during test observation. After ten or fifteenhe (RTDFJrjl)eport that the rocket engine malfunctioned and he case out. But et that tine the fuel system of the second stage had already ignited and en explosion occurred,arge number of eervlce personnel ee veil aa scientists. Please keep In mind thisvo-etege rocket and that basically all our rockets are tvo-atage. When you report this to your scientific experts, en^hsBiee this so they von't have to guess. Even when Nnon vasuestion vas askedolid or liquid fuel was used Only liquid fuel is used. Thus far no type of solid fuel has been developed

fl

whieh can propellicrg* rocketreet range. igh-caloried feel hasann-loped Being Boronomponent, o not know whatof Boron Id used.

Anothern report try; on le thet military pensions are

being reduced still fto-ther. ftov full colonels will receiveubles per month pension,erals upubloa (new rubleo). The nextere here le the eleetrie drill.

91. Ji oefore he goes on to that, since he has been specking of noron ncybc his memory Is refreshed concern! ry- vbnt he said shout the first BPUTfTXK. St ill repeat lt again. The first SrOTHIX only was fired byluater of rockets. Therm were three rockets below and one above, all clustered together. The overall weightons. Of this.ons wereea tbe rest of the velght was the baste shell and all of thenlpraent.

? mt* about theeleetrlc drill. The reason Xthis la becoMac sane of your scientists here oten eomlng to thehave been surprised that we here already developed eleetrie Our sclentlsta have been keeping this secret. Theas follows eveno not know the dlrvnatonel details. Therapipe the diameter of whichdllhw-tere. An electricmounted vithla the pipe. The motormdlately adjacent to the Hires are fed down to the motor and t'n rotctton takes place downnot on the surfoee. That is the principle, but vhat is theSwedish technicians who are drill rmnwfoetiu-ers fromof Stipko were there (in the USSR). They acre both diezjond drillssteel drills, that is special steel drills

99. Bt nre as ormJof ny missions hero the esalgn-rcnt ofteel called Btconle froeT Thiseat resisting steel vhich is available here in England. They have various designation sueh as. They sre all In the catalogue. They told no to gatrans of "tonic, (Subject This Is later clarified.) Oi (Toohlnm up his rdrclon neali-rrmut notes) Here It Isxcuse ma, not The firm that makes itwnry Vlg^ln.ill tell you vhnt my missions ore. Meybe you ean help me fulfill them.

S: "ell, eoen-sdes since ve ere such In the Western sense there drHi bits drill only semw tvoalf netera. Then the teeth break andave to be removed and nev btto put in. In other words it le ellven though thay drill as deep es three thousand meter* and more. They give yon the impreaoion that one drill goesundred anders, and that the drilling problem has been solved by no, hut that la not true. Therehole pile of broken bits far every effort.

S: Hy next itemthe Sixth Br-ekthrongh Artillery Division is located in the nun. now. Its design-rtfon is exactlyhe 5thrn-LmSKyiA ntvre.rtA PROTITVA). ber that in the Soviet Union there

ereartillery eorp*. This dlrlelon boo four brigade a. e wot knew the conposltlon ef these fourie * But inion there ere four other brigade* which em rocket artillery brlPTWee. Two of theae ere equipped with otocid werhecl rockets. The atr-ie warhead* emn tbe rockets bnt em stored in Bpeelal trtordc etorege depote. on't know where these depots are, but it should be eery simp I* for you to find out.

Oi To whom em there brl/redes eubordlnnted, VNowQOuTl Or pre they eewildered OH' units. Si They ere under HSGK/1EBK0 because these em considered to be strategic weapons. TWiyrrjjyy_iB in charge of all rocket artillery of the ground forces which would includetal, divi-

end corps rochet ertlllery. ": Free thoughrigadesoated In the DDR: Si Tee, eren thcnjfdijtbcy em ln oeranay. Ot Thia would re an that they em 'is unlta. bt For bnt you see thn general Staffae eoisnlnrrmts th* ataff of HfAwtAIBKO. The Minister of DaeVne* and tho Chief of the Oenrral Staff control HCWIXRTO, but tbiejmltert of the nllitary formations under TATTTfTVJV. Re ia in ebnree of the Cround Force* Artillery which conilsTJ of rifled artillery end free rockets and guided clxelleshortut strategic rdaotlee amAWWXj. n> control* tV ICBMs, the launching of ervTBTJCs, and this Strategic Socket Brlsede.

"1 nre youist of nllitary districtsof force e. first them Is the Group of Pot let Forces inthem le the fnu them Croup of Forces end the ltorthera nroup offollowing nllltery dlstrlets am cettm: The 7ab*yknlhe north. with Roetor-on-the-Oon. with hev^lquarters ln. withIn LroviOdeaea;lerjBqa.. Hqs.nku la alsohere) the trlVltlokly, Hit. RLgn. The WorthernI oentloned these rocket bases exist which are positionedhasn"transferred orer tn the Ienlngrad Militarysort. to longer exists. It weey >krsbal

Si Thoas. Alno-Ataj theoo. Fuybysher. Ton hette- ndd this, that the Tolgnust like the. with its hcfdqivrter* in Voronrxh, are now considered to be Incorporated into themi it rry District which is beingonsiderably. worldh- Hoeccw Military District stretched froo Kalinin to Meflsellnsk in the Fast, eet e. big seetlon ef th* RSFSR waa included In the MoscowHi strict. That lo why ouch prominenteferred toch ea BBUTA, were lacrdx'rs of th* Military Council of thn Moscow Mllitery Pdetrlet. The. Sotoeiblrsfcj theid not nentlon lt hem, but It rery shortly will be incorporated into th* Siberian Military Dlstrict -Rqs. rhmrdloTskr Tho par Fr.otsrn Military PI strict, Hqa.nd of. Moscow. All nf these headquarter* esurt definitely be blown up. please destroy these slipa end notes of nine later ro you wish.

Ji ft* aek Ma to elnrify the Impression he received earlier thrt ho vna the. representative of VKVJTPCY end possibly ether* vho were AlaMtlofll* vith the. repeats question a* etatsdi entloned thi* before end wrotey letter thet marshal FXTtyv and Merehal SOKCIX.Tr.UT ere absolutely hoclthy peep'* rnd ar* rmitp.m't friends. Th-ynot agree vithhcut hi* policy on reducing the alee of th* way.

a* yourust report to you thet th* Soviet Union I* definitely not prepared at thla tine for ver. All of thia lurltstion for peeee and intimidation on the other bond, vhlch ranhxrcuneteJy iwny Veetern leader* euecumb tn, prorr*nothing. Beck^ when thenffnir wee going onnion should here beenconfronted, end "mn todny thi*done, with Cuba forimply can't understand why Kmrrrcwv *hould not be ehnrply rebuhed. o not knev vhet enrwer nr. FJTTdonT vtXi (five him, but he oertelnly should be accused of ermine, Cuba vith Hoviet tank* end /new, right under the sates of America. Chechoslovakia also pent eonald-rabl* quantities of arm*. KOKBH ahould be firm. * not Rolnc to fire say roekt-U. It-ot ready for any vnr. eep-et wvTlov* the united State*ertainly, In Frnwrnv's place, vould b* firm, jnnt a* ve Mined the renin* In anmgfcry naintnln Its pover end everyon* knev what ve vera doing, why shouldn't sJM'.Lfl (wtv* tha ri<-ht to help the patriotic element* of Cuba, vhen you know what arms hoar* been amnt to Cuts fron the dMQ This la ny opinion and th* opinion of emny of our offlo-rs.

Si idn't finish about these Marshale. Vhenound out thrt they did not beck him, he simply ordered then retired. They aroension nov, Just 1th- 7rvar?. TD&XWIBK) vasretired, feat he had started to drink heeviVyveo. meny officer* arebcesnselthy trneral* and ameer* arelred and beeruae oftion in pry they her-Been* of earning a Foreductionn'rublea lne*rm to en Income0 rubles per monthery difficult tfien on*amily.

- JjJ; s' Iany that of the total Ccrmmlst Fortyillion rmobers, there era no nor- than tvo to tvoalffanatical Conm-ntst*, ar ever bejmn today on the scalevnr, even vith conventlonel arnrnent, countless nunb-r* ofnlfflw would simply desert to the other aide. This la beeniieeor ourrother* and relative* died hsrre

tvrnmd out to be nothingluffeceit. There la always the pro--rlee that things vill. b- better, but actually nothing la getting better sad -hlnrs are only getting voroe. v-e> to yon the* onlyeov end Leningrad ean one even pnrehasc foodstuff* decently. In Toroneih end Orela friend of nine reeestly eeme from there endseU thetare eotlm horv* meat, nine ruble* per pound by old prices. Pvan sauaage* ars made of horse reset and itifficult to get breed. ?lnce there ar* bo roads, thia results

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1 (Uir*

In unbelievable transportation delay* andnd grainottinglt cannot bo delivered. She eountry lo large end con pixyhsoe much wheat, butarry* pcrcnrrtan* lamw they ernnotal tableaofa oattlo vna loot duo to lack of fodder.

Lentf fnf*llshnrn, thirteen of then,neee rarnrrrlng to show thm the refrigeration eendpmcnt of the Re.

ret ion Plant Hlkoysn tfi. They vere fron the John Thonpeon fins vMeh

refrigeration equlpnont in rnpj.and. eceived an order

oenoel thi* because the cattle vhlch vere brought there vere just akin and

f"snd they did not vrnt the Ervjlishnvfn to see thi*. fhry told tho Engllsh-

that repair* vereon. Tou can cheekay vith thla delegation.

did not oee the plant. ould tell you each nore,ay friends, endure youreat deal nore yourselves.

ould like to emphselre one fact and that lohaa not rengovjed vex end is patiently ovniting the tine vhen

Si In the UprR thegeneration are dlssr.tisfied. ere envoi. They hav* lev decent clothes and vhen they sec yourand your visiting dclegsdions, and me* how veil-dressed the( ore, this has an effect on them. Our youths have no money end theft is_ 1 All kinds of crimes for theft occur about vhich nothing i* written. ell, the preus Is entirely controlled. The people eennot orcrniee. no opposition to the reglsm, endmrJl opposition does eriaethey are Irrmdlntely eliminated. The people are

afraid to do anything bceeuae if theyheir mouths thny will lose even the little bit they have. Thereo money in the bankj there is nonothlnc fron which to draw sustenance. There is internal dissension and Hitler wes right when in his tine he attempted to have minority conflicts. All of these week spots must be exploited before the external blow is dealtnr. Even tho Eoviet help to th- countries of Peoples' renccraelesood purpose in thet il Is draining the national treasury.

8: Valuable production results fron our labor even though tbe

individual worker get* only pennies. But ell of .those billions are rolng out of h* country and it'serious drain. Relations ere not always the best with the Satellites. For example, with China ve ere having difficulties

he eannr. fin he* given himself the alas Ion of being the Instigatornr. Bo venta torain of rockets" under vhlch, a* heto bury myn confident thatveijjuent-nov the USA andtho other free countries of the vorld such as Trance and Weot Qer-rmny are sufficiently flexible to vdth-tend the onslaught of Soviet roeketa end arms. All will not be deetroyedovery nay be possible. But still itto no that KBPOTnCHEV ehould not be permitted to initiate the var. Today he vill notex. He vill rant end rave end even send arms here end there duet ea he did to Cuba and possibly even send snail caliberrocket* there, in fact there ve* talk about tSa vith CA2CT0 andew rockets ore slronflv there.

fl

ve hare given them foods.tuffs end equipment, recently Meo Tee-Tung chased out our specialists Be said that his own specialists hare noy_ seen sufficiently trainee. It ean even happen that if ve stop supplying the gsXellllas more of them like Poland and Tugoslavla" vlll be asking you forhdr* almply le no monollthle Varsev Pact.

A i

8: Nov en of us are being squeesed more and more. Bven of my presentIubles Income tax. They took evsy allovanees for household help for high-ranking offlcera. They took evsy privileges of those who sre decorated vho in Stalin's tine vers declared exempt from income taxes. All of thle Is done because they need more and more funde to, build factories and other equipment for the manufacture ofhe 'discipline and moral of the Army has fallen greatly. There are eountleee esses of pilferage, drunkenness, and immorality. All of theae things Imust be considered. By itself it may notecisive factor, but It all adds to the general situation and cen be exploited. Ofm eorry for the people, but they have suffered so much already that if they suffer Just once sore for the sakeeally better future, lt vould be worthwhile having thle var. But ln that ease, let me knovhould be in Ho acow.

Oi Therefore, you are not the representative of any group of disaffected persons? 8: m all alone. ave la my mother, my daughter, Oalya, end my wife, m entirely la your hands. You cen do with me es you will,ish only to work vith you honestly. All theass to you are nine and all of my experience snd intelligence training are at your disposal. reat deal of training earlier from the Soritt Government. a eaeoclated vith no one whatsoever. ould be afraid of tele,o not wish it.

St ould like to have agent commo with youead drop. Please givenail Hinox. nov itave worked with it before. ill not develop the film evenave ay ovn apartment, so that my wife nor anyone else vould not notice. lll deliver only undeveloped film to youlll piece lt whereverell me to. ave many_seeret Journals such ea VOYPifflAYA MTSL, menuale, and claealficd lectures byTproainont people. hance to get these items in my hands for possibly en hour,en photograph then. ould not have time to vrite. rote up this rocket materialnew It was important. id it carefullynew you would check every word end if it were perfectouldecoration. 0: inat's fine.

II6. Oi Nov the time la drawing close, let ue plan for the future. 81 ight. ill leaveew minutes. 0: How what le youror your time schedule for toeorrow? 8: (Looking st hie schedule) Let ue begin working together tureoirow5 hours. ittle change ln my schedule. Tomorrow0 hours our delegation schedule will be completedove to run to the Pmbessyant to seean extend the duration of thle trip by five days. Aa It stands, we have ccoe here for ten days. We received money for ten days and our passport notation states that we have cone for ten days. However, there will be an engineering exhibition here in London up to the fourth of Mny and we hare no delegation planned to attend it. They wish to pase on the assignments for covering this

33

to ui. uet go toDATOY, tbe Ambassador, end esk Mm toable requesting that en extension of five dare be given to myself and my delegation. Thia will give me the opportunity ofittle more with you, to get to know you better end to reatit. o not know whether this will work out or not. In tbe meantime you muat planould leave onh because there le no permission to extend ae yet. Oi Vhen do you think you vlll knovt That la, vhenable reply come in? Si ill know about the decision on Monday.

Bi In addition ve want to eee vhat tbe firms Plessy and Leo Computers can show us because they deal with eleetroniee vhlch Ibirst priority, and lt vould be on advantage to report even on Borne new screw. Thinga are not sufficiently developed in electronics lnP. Some work has been done end they have various Integrators and computing machlnea, but lt Ib for from perfection. Tou have no idea of how many failures andtests have been made. The Americans are honest people. They write shout their test fellurea and edmitocket falls into the sea Ve don't write anything about thia but, believe me, ve have more, failurea than the Americana.

Si Veil, thia Is aboutad planned to tell you tonight. Poaalbly much ofave said did not follow ln proper sequence.ope that next time ve vill continue our talk vith more concrete detsils. ould like to do is to look over theaveand explain whatever may not be clear and pinpoint deteile.

Bi nov vith respect to the agent netn Ceylpp there is this diplomat who is vorklng for the Soviets. His fatherurd, vhlch fact he conceals. ave the noses and addresses of ell people. It Is hiddenead dropaveACHA. It le the DACHA of mytittle place. This uncle Is ray mother's brother. Xn the deadave this list of agents, which includes the agents ln India who are on conservation. There ere two brothers there. Formerly, they were veryagente, but nov they ere on eonaervatlon because ve ere not conducting intelligence operetions against India. This Is because MBROool and soys everything anyway. In fact, the entire government ia that way. Thereadio operator in this REIIOTTURA which is on conservation, and in

addition to the two brothers thereajor ln the Army and other military men.

8: In Pakistan there ere alx agente, one of whomurk, end there are two agents ln Ceylon. In Ceylon one of tbe agentsorporal who workseadquarters. Be obtains all kinds of united States military manuals. All thiaill pass to you. Don't forget tost of photographs for me to Identify. lll tell younow about, and who ere dangerous intelligence officers vho should be gotten out of the country. Any means should be used to expel them, includingintensive surveillance,et replacements come in because it

to*atconsiderable tineen vho Juet arrive! to do anything.

81 Incidentally, there vms an Iggortantast to tell yon about. YesterdayaeXXH ln the Oeneral Staff, why did you let hln cot Thia leo not and erst and. Be le an out-and-out Intelligence officer vho bee even been an Inatruetor lntudied Fagliah under bin. aw hln juet before flying here.

Ci Another Important natter, and please give this attention -please contact ell people vho have hnd dealings vith ve end neks then sign secrecy oaths to preserve ny security. Lestes_ln Weasa. on leave vith my ylfe end daushter. On my vay beek through Moecov frceiound myselfail roe* ear ln vhlch vera Amorlesn studente ond Instructors in the Russian language, also Anerieans. ould not approach

themnev that there vas anan vith theai vhoSS In-

foreont. For kmtalked tbe Anerlean rnbessyolf, lookingeliableatriot, /cross the street froa tbe /aerlean rnbessy thereunnel-like archway end tvo benches. at thereong tine snaking. There vere tvo nilitimes velklng oround. On- ves ot tbe corner. Dorens of ears vere coming out of the Fmbsssy. ven vent to the America Bouse. ev then plsytng cards there and drinking whiskey, end thereilltlsnan at the entrance. as welting for some Anarlcen to eone outould contact him and say, "Ulster, youatriot.

Pleeee deliver thio letter to your robe.esy. Everything In It Isouldn't aeet anyone. Bo one eame out.

Si These tvoneall and one vae short. Ot They delivered everything properly and you eon see here your original letter. 81 ad noticed them la the railroad car and reswsabered their appearance. i-rlved ln Moscowhe tenth of August and on thepotted then ss they vere vnlklng down to the river from Red Square. The tall man hod en wbrella since lt vae reining. They vere going to the bridgepproached them. At firsters frightened,poke to them ot length snd told thenoincidence It vas to see them sgala. They spoke Russian very veil. bs bo interested la the conversation, that, as en intelligenceode an error. idn't eey farewell to them. od already gives then the tvo envelopea, end it ves high time to end the convereotlon. eev tvo aUlitlerjOn by accident. One vas talkingoman, and the other ves walking. old the /aerieana to go vltb me to an entrenee voy so nt least ve could soy farewellould shake their hands, but they vere frightened and ato walk avmy.

Si idn't eny farewell to then, but they kept theand enh of August they depnrted fron Moscow. My feeling vne nisereble. ent to tbe dead drop! there ves nothing them. There vas

also no signal on th* booth. riend In Moscow vho is on ArnerdNn.

I told him "Leva, eome vith meotel. m looking for another Armenian

y>

vho vasrain. ent to the Budapest and then to the Balchuk, on the pretenseas looking for the other Armenian. At tha Budapest Hotel ve vere told thet no Aeerlcans had been there, but art the Balchuk, again using ny Armenianound out that the Ainerleane left Moscov onh of August. Afteralked around for months sod there vas still nothing.

vea told that this is_ncd^on-patiblo with ny back-father's havinghite Russian officer. Then I

81 Forller that Burroer they had assigned ne to the commission for acceptingo the KDA. Atas tochief of ton" incomingut

ground, that is,

vas transferred to the Cecalttee. But in theas vriting up all thethese students from their personnel files. There were many vho eeae to Moscow fron foreign assigneents, and there waa onelll think of his nameinute. G: Ba is BRCHFJfflAKDV. Bi Thet is exactly

right.

After this, in December, tho WtHSg delegation Theypeople. seidad to approachvas determined to get all of this Information as fastould to theand British governments. as undecided. Ton notice that atwrote tho letter when nSHCKVEH was president. idn't rewritedded,you can ace, tbe addressees, Her Majesty FUrabethand KACKTLLAB. pproached them in their room at the Leningradappealed to then like to my fathers. sked them to help me endthis letter. If Col. IHO had not departed from Turkey Ihave established atontact toould go vhen the They said that they vould con-

sider it. but did nothli

They know count me.

8:

In January, tha Canadian, faHsBBmtn, arrived. s acquainted vith emmVffmnm> the Second Counselor. hought of WkV^mfpm al hrA n

passport,j|ivilian passport. akedintroduce me to wesmnampmv* since ffJfcsmamSBk,orxoerclal Counselor,dealings with our Committee regarding scientific-technicalI approachedold hi- to please deUverhet to anil me down the river vas In hla province towhat vould he get out of that! Bs took the letter, but two daysI net hin again to give hin the package with oil this rocketreturned my first letter. He politely, but firmly, told me to go. Bewas not concerned with such matters. onthalf ego he rocalvedapartment in Hoseow. enteception with ray wife end took ellterlel vl1 iagain. Tthought maybe he had thought the

matter over end vould accept the meterlel. He greeted my vife and myself snd then stayed sway from me during tbe entireaslso request, therefore, that youecrecy agreement from them and request that they

tfl

for art all obout ta. These sr* the path* alongike an animal in order to nek* this contact.hank you for thle rery ouch. Don't forget tbe Mlnox oeaere.

81 equest that you eraluate my submitted aetwrlol vith respect to Ite financial worth. m certainly not going to bargain obout it,dler. Whatever youho-ildlll accept. Please plsee vhetever you decide ln the bonklll request snail rateeed then. Dtrring thisill eak you for some money, not thio minute but during my stay,are to buyev things. Pome of thean take with me. an even take tvo suitcases vith ae if it le necessary since it la entirely normal,tn leave one eult-cn s- behind vith WiRRR end get them from WYJtlH next time he corses tonre neny purchase orders to fill for my friends, ay vife, ate.. ave complete trust and know that you vill decide this properly. Basically, those ere ell ay requests. Ot n sure everything vill be arranged accordingly. 81 Fine.

B: Well, these are all ny requests end please nov consider nov toystem of deed drops. hink that ve can arrange all this prior toh of April and lt eecne that there may not be any reason making It necessary for mo to meet vltb someone until five or six months after this. 0: Are you plenrdng to possibly return hers again In the FallT ou see, that all depends. lll tell you ell obout my mission hero ond whatave to get ln terms of certain catalogues,hat they vould seeere obtained something and brought lt bank. Then there le another mission, thnt of turning over Bona of my eequelntonees to local eon-tacts. lll tell you oil about thnt tomorrow. ill oak yrwredvlce and possibly your help in none of these matters. Then it all depends on how all thle vill be accepted at hcae. If they trust me, they may even eend me vith my vife end fomlly oversees. Thio could be to the United Otntes, to England,

i

or to Canadn. By ny experience enda eligible, butatter of whether they trust am. "

0: How about your mother? Bl Tto, they vould not let her go. Ton vill have to help me crrange bov to get ny mother out some other way." Oj Could she get to the TUT S: Tee, it is possible that she could go thereourist. C? thnt case It vlll notifficult witter to get her cart through East Berlin. Si Thntossibility. nre enother possibility In mind. enre completed ell oy eesignmeoto for yon inould go vith ay family to live in Riga or rleevhere in the Baltic States. ould got out either by ouhmorlne or surface croft. This mrqr sound naive ot thio point but It looesibtllty. Qi It vould be much better If oh* could goourist to Fast Berlin end then simply get to Vest Berlin. Si Anyway, think about thio. Tba only otherent to rerntion is that you vill be satisfied vith no. Oi wo aro sure of thle.

q: How let ue arrange about tomoTTOw. b: eliere that Iwith you again tomorrow ln the evening, late,0ould be the beet tire for ne because the other, will already bewill be falling esleep. C: Cen there be any difficulty for you froaIn your delegation: 6: Ho, none at all. ra perfectly rare ofme, what danger do you think there cen be? Oi We don't know thebut we ere afraid thatattern of your disappearancer*ir *> Hothing ean happen.

-LT^T? Sr5' the phone rings there will be no answer,

ill .imply sayae esleep. G: Suppose they keep knocking loudly on your door? Si first of all, there are double doors, and secondly, why ahould anyone knock on my door? aid goodnight to them quits properly, andould retire. m positive none of then sre surreilllng me. Oi Ve ars raising these points entirely for the sake of your security, 8: That Is rine, end you can say anything vith respect to mattersn not svare of. But thesenow, so far ss ny delegation is concerned. 0: Ve certainly ere most happy to meet vith you ss much es possible, Don't mi sunder stand. S' leyeaB WOT* during the night. ill cone hereO hours. Oi tee, come straight to this room. Si Thia is shoutad In mind to tell you tonight.

1 vouL5 1Ufe t0 te completely honest la my relations with youould like to formalise our relationship by sn official ART, so that you con properly report this to your top people. ill sign ell necessaryoaths, etc.. ant tolear soul,n doing thisfor my whole life. These are nots tbe result of one day.

beB?for beck in th* daysas ln Turkey. ae never identified to them by name. Bbv

e vaited patiently almost one year, God has granted our getting together. Oi That Is why no further unnecessary chances should be taken from nov on. True, God has protected you so far, but thereimit to taking chances.

Ocd does not bless foole. Qi Ho matter how much ve want to meet vithyou for long sessions ond often, ve must bo careful.

sked WTOTF. vhen he vas leering on the plane. ave him my letter and one document. If he had taken all of the materiel you vouldxnndneJt byjxnr. It vould have been Irgwrtant for you to have studied this earlier in order to have saved time, since there are many iters there and no doubt many questions shout them. After all, there sre oil kinds of details about the technical equipment, the organisation,fterthese vere not notes from lectures. The materiel ves directly copied from written lecture materiel and from nanucls. These vere all Top Secret 'irnxn^anee. ut themrlsfesse vhlch vas carried ln end out of the buildingpecial PRORBK.

eil, then, let us say goodnight until tomorrow. ill come as soonan, but it may beate0 hours. G: Come vhen you ean. Ve vill bo waiting for you. Let re take you out ond showear etalrvay of the hotel, right across from this room. You can go right up to the fifth floor vithout being seen by arryone. This will avoid taking tne elevator. {Subject ves given hland c. escorted him to the etalrvay. Subject left3 hours,)

*S'he First Meeting,

o the tape. FrnnYunatelT, SuWeci

Jhe thereon harlruj follen'wlthln

lDUteicoT

nevitable due to the fact that at theT

elordestin-lF

for future stings

tTO rhorcfor.0:

I inunohlna .Iteo established In theut thorns are

r^Mnf JJif^ Cft? Moscow) In the direction of Itanotop, therea treinlng center for officera of the Roeket M

X/ A

Original document.

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