Subjeot hi BatV Point No.he Challloty C. and ledistance to the perked osr driven by M. Roger again provided surveillance oover. Subjeot arrivedinutes late and explained that he waa tied up with' hla delegation and oould not get free to make the meeting exactly aa scheduled. Upon review of the elxcumatanoee at the pick-up point by C. and Roger on the next morning both parties who were present at the RV point felt that several persons ln the area were observing everyone who pasaediscreet dietanoe, but they certainly appeared to be members of the French polloe in civilian clothes. Sinoe an intensive curfew regulation against Algerian Moslems Is currently ln effeot and officially begins0 hours, this could be the logical reason for Frenoh detectives to be actively patrolling. At any rate to play safe it was decided to abandon RVnd to return to RV No.he footbridge, whioh has always appeared most suitable and had not been used for several meetings, only for the normal security consideration toattern.
Upon arrival subjeot Immediately began to describe everything that took plaoe with respect to hla contacts with wflsfR Thisost Important day ln lining up whatever arrangements were possible for subjeot to exploit In order to fulfil hla missions for both the Committee and GRUegitimate basis. Luckily it had been possible toeport fromsssmmm, on his meeting with subjeot via Al prior to subject's arrival at the meeting. The upshot of the report sea, to quote Joe, that subjeot "hityclone" with his demands snd has evenrip for bis entire delegation despite the foot that ha was admonished against exerting pressure on HOOK.
Excuse mo for beingas held up by tho delegation. Let mo tell you everything in proper order. This morning.ew minutes0 hours,eesaBkoalled ms at my hotel, and made an appointment with mo at hla office0 hours. ent there and spoke to himhole hour. Be received mo very graciouslylso brought him some snail glfta of Caucasian wins, caviar and cigarettes. old h'meeded with
respect /
APPROVED FOR RELEASE
respect to places that oy delegation desires to visit in the PARIS area end ln other teams. leo told him ebout whatI needed and about the idant to visit out of town next week. He wrote everything down while we diBoueeed thlehole hour and we workedrogrsnras. According to thleoaorro- atO we will be taken to the Bourget area toarge electrical factory which nanufaoturea electrical equipment, ery kindly arranged for aof hie to come to my hotel0 hours. Thle men willuide and will go with me to the hotel where our delegation sre etaying ss touriate. ave arranged for an interpreter to be there end have instructed the delegation chief to have everyone up, fed and ready to leaveO houre. How many people will thle include f There will be nine of thea and nyeelf will makeill go with them on thle vieit. C. I Vhat happened to the other They are the metallurgiete and they are* already travelling through the country on their pre-arranged Itinerary. Vhat happened to your Committee Interpreter, LAPTSVA 7 S. i She la aleo with thea. o got three brochure* on Hlmonio* and aayetample. Thi* will take oar* of the delegation for the present and on Saturday evening they will leave town te visitn Franceaa arranged another place for thoa to vieit during thle trip. TRAHSTOUR will take them and he will arrange for thea to vieit plaoea on Monday and Tuesday. BUI you go with them on thle trip alao 7 Ho. ill just go tomorrow, and froa thor* on they will go by theaaelve*.
S.1 Mow, for me end for ths repreeontatlve of the Embassy, SOLOVYEV
HOOK has arranged either forh orhialt by SOLOVYEV and me to the Electric Mechanic factory at LB HAVRE. The Dlreotor la Ur. ROGSELL (phonetic). ill go thereTfEV anduide go with ue. Thle will take place on eitherhh October. Inill visit the firm "Jeuaont-n the town of VUMDNT" (phonetio); Thle iena. from PARIS. Be aald that each piece oould be visited during the course of one day. Thle trip to VUMONT" ahould take place Monday or Tuesday, and the one to LE HAVRE on Vednesday or Thursday. The dates may be re-arranged according toe able to set thea up; he will tell ne when the date*. Tbe Director of thle plant ln "JuaCWT* ia M. MDLLST. My only request to^eaf**ea that
of theee visits terminate by Thursday. Thia woulditmo to work with you on Friday and Saturday, Therefore for theseon ayill be eoooapanied by SOLOVYEV and will ride lnalao seeing If it Is poeaible for a* to vlalt in
PARIS here, the Chemical fira of "F5 SONET" (phonetic) (Pechlney Cie. de Produite Cham, et Kleatro-Ketallurg.ue Balzao, PARIS? By the way the representative of tha GVF (Civil Aviation) in PARISRU officer whose name le Vladimir Ivanovioh ZEULYANSKTY (identified. Eabaasy photo series Het. Col. of Aviation. He is the stouteferred to and he waa aleo present at the operational meeting. At thatould not remember hla name, but todayave already got my Air Francoae able to meet him. We also saw bis photograph in the earlier pictures (British eat).
1 :'t aek to ay arrangemsnteI will
have three tripe, one with the delegation and two with SOLOVYEV, Be also showed me brochures, three of which were on Nloonies with new descriptionssked him to save theee for ae until he haa collected them all,icked them up, and he agreed. ill also drop in to fve ae0 tomorrow at ay hotel. Just in order to tell mehould get in touch with hla later in the dayeturn from ay trip with the delegation in order to find out froa hia how the other arrangements have been scheduled. Ha waa very nioe to me and has Invited ae for lunch,which aay be on one of these daye. et hla today and made ay requests, he already had arranged everything for tomorrow and advised me thereofhone call0 hours. old tbo delegation and they were moat pleasedas able to arrange thle, since they could get nothing like thle out of DODDI of DfTOuRIST (KGB). shy sre you Involved in arranging the trips for the delegation 7 Because this delegation haa been sent here under our Commit ton auaploea andepresentative of our Consalttee here and on vlaitaechnical nature it ie up to ae to make the arrangements even
though /
to
s
though you correctly said that they alreadyeneral tourist-type Itinerary planned for then. Thla la an additional visit which iaon their Itinerary which haa been ceamletely laid outry to fill ln their free time that they have between tourist-type vielte with arrangeaents to visit places of technical interest to thea responsible for any of these on thla list ofho any be sent here, thua far only these nine have coma. No others will oeen. ahat about ths oable that stated twenty others will ocne 7 That was changed; they will not ooas. Probably that is for reasons of economy, but in additicn the Exhibition haa already elosed. The other delegation aeabers who ars now herehanoe to visit the Exhibition several tines. (Subject described HOOK's office and apparently waa very such lap re seed byj^) hank you all very auch for all your af forte, for arranging all this with"ewaVsVand thia will solve my mission problems for the Committee since they will return to MOSCOW four daysill and will report on this favourably. And thia will oover all of your Conxaittee mission requirements 7 Xea, fully. And the valuable documents will help you fulfil your CPU missions and the less'valuable ones you will send to the Cocmdtte*. Tss, that isill do. ust want to mention again that it would be olearly valuable for me to have something from the Bagneux firm; sked fefaw* about thia too and bo sill try. That'save to report in respect Here la my Air Prenoe ticket; m taking0 flight on Sunday Ootoberrom Only to PRAGUE andoviet plane5 hours and will he ln MOSCOW0 houra. That samean advise you by telephone with three rings aa before of my safe arrival. My only request about the flight iaust leave tha hotel0 houra to be at the Airport ia plenty of time to get my baggage through, therefore pie have WYNNE got up0 houra and arrange for both him and myaelf to be awakened then so we can meet this schedule. (Subjeot was assured that the
hotel /
hotel could wake thea ap an tlae end we would make euro that WYNNEavailable on time), lhan ie WYNNE coming ? It would be wall ifget bare on Mo relay or Tuesday. Be le Juat arriving lnand ho will probably not got here before Tuesday. Maybego on one of tho tripe with aa. Abeolutely not. Keepa aouroo for one eet of doeumente, andorapetely aeparate aaeouree. WYNNE muat not get mixed up within any way; heaarred hie purpoee aa tha contact men for you to meet eawsawnndhaa ln fact taken place and now WYNNE must be kept oempetely Very wall. If you aay lt ahould not be done we won't do ad lunch at the Embassy yesterday with GRIGORIYEV and with
FRCmOHOVound out that GRIGORIYEV has an acquaintance whohemlet end who has given him eome eaaplea of eome steel corrosion preventative. It ia applied acne thingaint. The man works in the Peirm,o not aay that ha ia an agent, he may beood personal friend, he did not give me hie name. Everything le wall at the Embassy end nobody eaye anything whatsoever about the BERLIN eltuatlon. It ie entirely quiet, but they are careful about going around ln to an and are doing ao more Tou were et the Embaaay for the past three days now, waa there anything new that you overheard of interest at all ? S, i o to the Embassy every day androp ln several times. aa at the Exhibition watching how thoy wore diesxtntllng it.
G. i that about thle banquet that you mentioned would take piece on the 3rd after the oloeing ? S. t Thatarce; they are aorrived there late,0 houra, there were hardly any people there end ln general few attended the Exhibition with the exception of Sundays. In allisitors attended the Exhibition, but in NOSCOO over two million visited the French Exhibition. ad to laugh, prior to the closing of the Exhibition our specialists sold eome fifty expensive cameras
to/
-fe-
te the French, but they were brought beck aad refused aa being Inadequate. Instead of en elaborate banquet and tha giving of awards both monetary and In gifte to the people mho vorked ao hard, ell they received ves an expression of thanks and they were shown an Italian filn. There were hardly any people
from the Embassy there. atter of feotrench workera came to
begin the dismantling and made ell kinds of aolae while the film was going on,eft tbe place in disgust.
11. Did you call this Prench lady, Marie-Paulle (karle-Paullo idade en appointment with her to take her out tomorrov night. nvited her to the Lidoould like lliohael to make reservations for as> in the name of Mr, ALEXANDER in the front row next to the stage. ust jo to tbe box office sod ask for the ticket* for sr. AIZLUEZ2 azd ycu will eee that all haa been reserved for you,* ycu do not need to tell the lady ahat name you sre using.
ahould meet in order to review the result* of th*has arranged and the plan* he ia setting up for you for the following week. That will be the earlleet day ve oan met sine* the next two evenings you will be mixed up with excuse theother diveraions". S. i Fine. At what tier? shall we meet on Sunday ? 0 hours. Thatery good time end we vlll do thle at the footbridge. That'a fine. That la an exoellent pihe other plaoe,ame today le very good too. aa walking up the ate Ire, there was nobody around (he thought). Next week w* ahould meet more often sinoe we have many things to diaeuea and to refine end if there are repetitions, what of it 7 We will see how things work out with respect to your travel schedule end we oan planexaotly next Sunday.
G.i Tou say you haven't heard one word about the BERLIN situation at
the Embassy 7 It seems that thay are tired of speculating on Itet the impression that everyone is waiting. They ere all listening to tbe radio and reading French nevepaper* carefully. Thoy nxintioned ln the French paper 'Figaro* thatoooer match ln the Caucasus an uncontrolled fight beganeorgian and an Armenian team and it became eo uncontrolled
/
dtaf
very good reooon that sany ocsapenleo ore dlocontinulrtg manufacturing thenthe batteries beooac weak very rapidly. At fire* they work fine, hut Tory quickly the battery power dropo. However, weay of solving thla problem by obtaining spring wound moehanlcal rasora. All one needs to do ia to keep lt wound tight and lt will work well indefinitely. This spares the necessity of always trying to replace worn out batteries. S. i aw these oncehink that those would he very good, andatter of footave heard aboutaa afraid to ask youhoughtight be asking for too much. C. i That is just fine and if anyone argues with you you oan simply aay "look fool, thlaot need battorlea it lamodern than tho others and lt oan always be wound up". Of course that's fineill explain thle exceptan't aay -Lock, youo tho Mlnlater of Defence, alnce he lo going to be one of those to receive it, aa wall aa RUDNSV and SEROV, That's fine, George, let's go on to tho questions.
G.i In reference to rooketo, when you consider the large ones ouch as
, whichong range, of what use do theonsider it worthwhile to uae conventional warheads on these'roeketaroat expense la Involved inn st ruction of these missilesmall error off the target would make thoir effect worthless. S. i nderstand your question perfectly. When you mention, first of all let me state that they hovearge quantity of these rockets. It would be wasteful to sorap these ao that they are now held In reserve. In addition many conventional type warheads have been already manufactured for these rockets. In additicn they still consider that within tha allowable lateral snd rangs deviations for those rockets, the TNT equivalent conventional warhead would stillonsiderable area of destruction. In addition to thia, whann aiderar may break out ln which nuclear weapons are not used, at leaat at the outset, these available roeketa would be very necessary. emember from my studies, the parametera of error within which theae roeketa operate
oan /
can rtlU bt effective. Of course, all types of rooket* arequipped to
atcado warhead* andre the one* whose range* are used to determine how far an atom warhead can be delivered. Since the conventional warhead* oonaiat of TNT which la poured lnolid aaaa of honey and ar* heavier, their oorrespeeding range* for each type of rooket are greater than if thay oarrled an atomic oharga. It ia not faaalbl* for technical reasons to balance the load of th* atcado warhead with additional heavy sat*rial auch as lead, therefore there smaller.
G. i Tell me bow long haa FEDEROV been in oonmand of hi* missile
brigade at VSISSF.NFEL3 in? PEDBROV waa assigned there lest yearould aay in the Late summer and ha haa beenear now. Vaa thi* brigade there before he was assigned to it 7 t was. Row long did it exist bsfore he casta Before he oaae thererevious oaanander and he had trouble with the former deputy because the latter had aspired to be the Brigade Ccexaander whereasimply came ln from MOSCOW and was given the job. How long do you say the Brigade has been there before FEXEROV took over it* oonmand 7 ould say this that all tha- four Brigades which ar* there have been there for now two years. Of course one may have been deployed there earlier and than the other* followed so that ths first one would have been there two years and the last oneearalf.
G.i What i* the table of organisation rankommander of
rigade 7 They can be Colonel* or Major-Generals. olonel doe* particularly well be oan be promotedajor-General aince that la the Table of Organisations slot. Now there ar* two Colonel* there and two9 Generals; JSJUCFolonelave given you the name of on* Major-General mhoissile brigade eemmsnder, his nameen. Valor VINOGRADOV. Sine* you mentionant to stress to you that FEXEROV could be of tremendous value to me if he sere transferred back to MOSCOW. His wife i*
constantly /
tly bonbardlng my wife, VARENTSOV end sn-*elf to gat her husband treneferred to MO SCO". She cannot go to. since she wee sent out together with their abnormal eon who got himself into trouble in. end wee declared persona non gnat*. All of PETCROVe personal difficulties there were In the line of personal transgressions but were not euffioient to hare bin removed for official incompetence. VARENTSOV would always giveob because he waa hia former Adjutant and he is very fond of hia eveneo than BUZINOV. (Subject etreseee that although he himself ie one ofavouritee due to long yeara of friendship, ha etill aleo likes PEDEROV very much snd FETEROV wculdirst-rate eouree of information for subject sinoe not only did thsy get along very well but 7EDE3CV le in subject's debt for peat favour*reat degree. Subject goes on to explain how hearge party et hia house Just before ha came and to which General POZOVKTTe well aa BUZINOV and other Colonele from GRU. Much classified information can come from such conversations and again subjeot etreeeed that he oould get anything out of FEDEROV and BUZINOV, particularlyeither of thoee two are drinking with subject).
0,1 Have any long range aviation unite been converted to or
replaced by minite ? S. i ong time now In the Soviet Union the number of long range aviation unlta haa alwaya been email. There neverrogramme to make large numbere of long-range aircraft, but the units which did exist were always retained. There were improvements made in the types, and newer types replaced the old, but the numbers were always relatively email. Thle long-range aviation of oouree le capable of delivering atomlo bomba but it will require adequate air cover, our fighter* will not be able to give it very long range protection beoauee their own range* will be limited. The orew of theee bomber* ie siseable. It runs from twelve to fifteen sen, but lt baa conelderable fire protection of lte own with many multiple turrets end alao carries rockets. These rockets are air-to-air types. eard about all thle frca POZOVKTf, froaan easily get Information since he la very friendly to me snd telle ae everything. After all he was in the PVO andeputy to BIRTUZOV. He attended ell allltary oonferenoea regsrding PVO.
He /
Ko haa all kinds of personal contacts even now withuch as Gen. Lieut. PETuXHOV,twho la an ariation Ceneral who also Uvea near POZOVNTT ln ths SCKCL^area. PETCKHOV is still servlna In PVO ana these two meet often. Another apod friend of his is Gen. Lieut. MITEL'KOV. He la the Commander of an Air Army near MOSCOW which is subordinate to PVO. The Divisions which cnaapose this Army are all an integral part of
of the Land. (Subjeotong-winded story about the background of MITEL*KOV). Hoidower and hia wife who was deaf diedpon returning fromelebroted Hewre at POZOVNYI'a on the year6 going Pour years later again on Newaa at PCEOVNYT'a. This time POZOVKTT did not invite MITEL'KOV, hut at three o'clock in tho morning quite drunk, in oane MITEL'KOVood looking woman. Thia lady, whoa he introduced as his fiancee, lo the Direotor of the Generals' store in MOSCOW which belongs to the Military Counail of the Ministry of Dsfenoe. Her nans is Anya MARTYNOVAj she was ay old girl-friend. new her years ago and, oh well, she was my girl friend,idn't marry her. retended not to know her althoughre good old friends and she was loaded with diamonds, aince anyone whoireotorene rale' store always ate ale, grafts and gets thinga others do not, and she was no exception. After she was divorced from MARTYNOV, and sherown son now attending the Baumann Institute, she married Hero of tho Soviet Union SOBOLEV, who was killed whileost flight In the lateat fighter craft when ita canopy flew off. Thia happened in LENINGRAD but ho waa burled ln MOSCOW In Hovodeviehly oemetry. Now that she ia a
dow, Ceneral MITEL'KOV wants to many her. Excuse me for deviating from my thought.
C.i In other words you mean that ths sdssils unlta did not replace long range aviation units. S. I No. No. Under no olrcumstanoea. Although the fleet and other civilian enterprises were cut downudgetary aense in favour ofnd their increased production, the Air Foroe was not touched and though email it remained as it was, that is ths long range vrlatlon.
8*1 Did VARENTSOV mr have sjguraents with the long rangeox tha Soviet Air Force ? Tea he did but thle wae all on afightingreater budgetary appropriation, but this ia aleo true ofhe had with ROThTSTROV and the tank people j and in fact he etillargument* but it is all over money. aCSKALEKKO alao haa argueentafor the aame reason. In fact Sergei Sergeievich told me that hewith thea In the pretence of KHRUSHCHEV and the Central Committeematters and KDZLOV, BREZHNEV and alao JfTKOTAN were QU* latjae_an^
j auuui
the chleThe3irectoraU..oCCRAU_wjilch actually eocapta_the_nieailee from ths plants and serves aa customer for the Defence Industry ? GRAU hae bobs twelve or fourteentherein. CRAUentral Research groupnvolved with Nilll of thenumberedan'twhat the numbere are. They alsopeoiflo designation. One majm concerned exclusively with optical Instruments, another exclusively with artillery bases. Still another may be concerned with rocket materiel ae such and under thle they would have ctdela. The exact title of the Directorate that you refero not know but there certainly is one Just as you aeked about. There ieirectorate exclusively for warheads.now the internal organisation of CRAU very poorly; eed en informant who ie employed ln that headquartera to get thia information. m aura that BUZINOV and FEDEROV know,ever chancedonversation about GRAU with thea.
I
G. t In the Artillerlyekly Sbornlk there11 mlaallea mentioned. Does this mean that1 mlaaile and1 missile ia with an atomlo warhead T (After considerable dlacusalon and re-questionljvn the following Bunraatlon was reached. 1 and1 deal gnatean that they are atomic warheada. Designations such aAreor rocketa with conventional warheads. However it la possibleooket1 with tha auffix changed : ould mesa an atoedo warhead. Subjeot added that the
y '
deal gnat ion /
ade no difference with respect to their both being atomic warheads. Their difference la thoir atotnio yields so long as thoa behind thea in tha designation).
24. Do you know tbo names of any other Central Committee Department heads beaidea TTASKO for Light Industry, whom you mentioned before ? ho last documenthotographed for you whioh involved the listing of Government leaders beginning with KHRUSHCHEV, that waa tho very last information on this subjeot, You don't remember any fromi No. Tou should refer to this directory.
VQi/ to 1 Comndtteo In tho so-called Mmtary Section
is tho one tMtcontrole
exclusively GRU, Thereilitary section (otdea).est theof CPSu* and to be core
because the Central Committee is squeamish about using that term, it le officially call edjthe^dminlat retireSect ion. It la the aame thing. Thereroup of officera therein who are concerned with the General Staff of the Ministry of Defence and with the Ministry of Defencehole. amed an offioer there earlier who is concerned witholonel whos)ave you. There are two officers now who are concerned with GRU,ave you their naraaa, Do they control GRU at all levels ? es, they have the kremlevka and they can simply call SSROV at any time. ust remembered the name of one. Aviation Colonel CHIRKUNOV. This is the first section or the Military Section of the Central Committee of the CPSU ond tho aeoond section ia tho main political seoticn of thef tbe CPSU. Thus the Central Committee with these two powerful tentsolea, controls the entire armed forcea in.
26. Row, they sent out to all groups of foroes and military districts high rankingho are members of tho Militaryemember one auch representativet. Gen. ln the CSFG in Germany, Be is the representative of the Central Ccemlttee in Cormany and he sits right next to the Commander In Chief of the GSPG. S. i Heember of
* the/
th* Kllitaxy Council and reports to tha Central Commits**. But oertainly
he cannot be with his rank subordinate to the Colonels you mentioned above 7
S-1 There ia no subordination here whatsoever. nnber of the Central
Committee ia all-powerful. serov speaks to Colonel CKTRKUNOV of the Central
Ccct.ittee by name and patronymio. After all chiraujjov does not express his
own personal views, he may be expressing th* views or decisions of some
Secretariat of th* Central Committee. But these member* of the Military
Council then must all alt somewhere in the Central Committee and there must ho
a pretty large number of them. S. i There oertainly are hut it makes no
difference where they sit and rank is me an ln glens, they often go around in
civilian dress. After all my father-lnTUg,Jjcncril CATallOVWl wee si so w"
msmber.of .the Military Council. Thereirst member of the Military
Council and ho ia appointed by the Central Ccrxaitteo. He sends out the people
you just referred to to all of th* military district* and to the groups of
force*. Theae people are the soul of the political control over the Army and
they report on everything that goes on In the Comraand they are assigned to
with respect to how the oommend is exercised, personal habits of the Commanding
Officer and hi* staff, etc. etc. They also report on the state of training of
tha troops and on their morale and on their discipline. Many of theae people
have no military background, but recently there are more and more who do have.
hort pause was made to change reels).
Vhen did the first five-year class graduate from the missile course
at the Dserxhinakly Aoademy 7 S. i Mrwt of all the course is
years by the time the starhirovkanoludod and they hand one his diploma.
It ia referred to of oours*ive Tear Course. ould say that the first
class graduated in
26. Ci Touilitary Aoademy of Sciencesivilian
Aoadenrr. Are these formal titles oray of referring to those with
military functions 7 S. t These are two differentf oourso with
different mission* and with different Chief* and Deputies, But aro those
titles correot ? Tes, they are. In recent year* there has been a
change, now thereumber ofKIIs such aa th* on* in GRAU,
which In the past havo been all joined under the Academy of Military Science, Theae HIIa now are subordinated to the respective oombat arm whloh thoy servo. Although the Aeademy exiete it ia not the all-inclusive body it had been. Ito functions hove been considerably changed, urely aoma of the "military" scademlea also have some civilian work ? Or doea the "military" academy Include only military Nile, laboratories and ao Thoir relationship la cloee-firet of ell the Instructors have been taken from civilian academies . After all, all Of the baalo principles atom froa chemistry, physios, elootronios, oto. even though applied for military purposes they are actually from civilian aouroee. would the Military Made mien also have civilian work ? No, It would bo tho other way round, the civilian institutes would work for the military. Tha civilian institutions are more numerous, more developed and better equipped than the military, for example in the Aeademy of Soienoea of tho USSR there are* coTiuarrr -wkr arar eund^aau: itborr jtunt lii xr JI ore ttr ihe 'fJcanittao. "he Academy of Sciences alao haa what weop Secret Seotor which co-cedinatea Top Seoret matters whloh are concerned with every phaee of interest to the nllitary. Tneant to atreas ia that thereery close co-ordination between the Academy of Soienoee and ailitary-aolontifio institute a.
29, Is this seotor listed in that Academy of Soienoea directory by that name orover name 7 No. That ia Top Secret. For example in the eeotion of the directory under mathematical acleneea you know that there are some people who work for the Eighth Otdel with respect to development of codes. old you about this in detail last spring, but the individual mathematician would not be listed under any such category. Often epeolsliate ere called out Of the Academy and requested to run some project or other for the military, they may be even called before the Supreme Military Council, "hen thle happena they are given the people and facilities to assist then and they simply do not exist in the Academy of
Sciences /
So is noes during tho period when their sorrioos ere required by the military.
C.i Therefore your military institute* would harecivilian specialists a* well ee military specialists ? lea, they oertainly do. herefor* thi* Academy of Soienoea directory would contain civilian and military Of course lt doe* and Harold very correctly aaid that th* Kremlevka telephone directory ahould be compared with the Academy of Soienceo directory to determine mho the top acientlate and designer* ar* In vital Soviet scientific and military programmes. At leaat that will oover everything of Importance in sDSCOW, but remember tbat thereranch of the Aoademy of Solenoe even in Siberia, and these people also work for the Army. Therea section In the Aoademy of Solenoes directory whioh Hated theae people end gave the addreaa of the Aoademy in NOVOSIBIRSK.
and Rumania. Ia It possible that theae are Just testingor troop training and not actual missile site* from where combat missiles would b* launched ? S. i Thlaood question. If you took NOVAYA ZEMLYA a* an example, where PYRSKIY ha* been conducting the toot* and these should be oompleted pretty soon since he must be back In sDSCOW in October, it la quit* poaaiblo that the site* from whioh rocket te*ting was conducted will not be the site* from which rooket* would be launched in caee of war. But there at NOVAYA ZSULYA there are other excellent site* for storing nuclear warheads and where missile sites in case of war are established. Similarly those two locations in th* Ukraine are site* from which rocket* are aimed towards the Vest In training exercises, but they may not be at all tho actual oombatainst the West In oas* of war. Right now they are suitable for covering the targets, namely Poland and Rumania, ln the event that lt would be necessary to deliver via there, uge aits like these is enveloped it obviously requires all kinds of construction work Including housing for
personnel /
er
personnel, adequate storage installations and all kinda of other auxiliary construction. Thia would never be abandoned, not only because lt can be used for aontinuous training but because ainco it is completely tied In geodetically it can be usedite for actual rooket firing agalnat tho onemy if the need arose. Of course, when hostile intelligence has the place pinpointed, they may displace equipment and personnel away from the immediate vioinity, but etill close enough to use it. Therefore wo must consider that all those sitoa like KAHJSTCN YaB, theee two ln the Ukraine and tho onea in tho north oan all be used to launch actual oombat missiles when necessary. Of course many miasile altes which oan be called firing positions are aleo being constructed and rooket troops would oomo there to use these prepared aitea for firing in case of war. nuoh work auat be done on theee sites since launching pads require de of preparation.
0*1 Are there foreign observers at the currentfas Chinese, Bulgarians or for that matter any satellites Bo. Bo foreigners are permitted at our nuclear tests, peakatomic teste because they do have repreaentativee from thaet rocket launching tests. Only Soviet military peopleare at the atomic testa. The high offlciale of aatellitetold that tha teats are going on but there la some degree ofthat tho representatives are not permitted to be there* At one timeofflcera froa aatellite oountries at the Dserrhinakiy Academy, atsome of the faoultiee but now thia has all been stopped. Aa
re somber the VAK there, thereoreign faculty, but since that time forthe laet twoalf years the Academy has become far ax>renstitution*
Have you ever heard what the opinion of any aenior offlcera is on tho Chinese nuolear weapona prograioma and what ia the opinion from any source as to when the Chinese will have such weapona ? S. i ave had interest in this matter and up to today all the Chinese have are various lnatallatlona for making fissionable materlala end for testing them. The
Chineao /
tn are atriving to develop the production of .fissionableI ale end to produce thea In nore conoentreted form but up to now they do notuclear bomb. aked Sergei Sergeievich about thio, particularly after he had returned from Korea and China. He told me that they do not have any bomba yet and if they need atomic waapone then we would give lt to them. Theee Ittrategic viewpoint, if therehreat on thathink thst we would sLwply send our own unite into Chins to support them with nuolear weapona. However, up to now we have not given thea any. C. i How soon do you think the China aa will have their own nuoleer weapons T S, j hink that in two or three ye era they will havetheir own nuolear veepons. They are working very intensively on this; the Chinese do not have large quantities of raw materiel, they do not have any1 to sands, Cseohoslovakia hee more and ve get thle material from them. Although the Chine ae do not have any eosipleted atomic weapona, they do havendumber of laboratories ln vhloh they aro vorklng on thia problem constantly. The Central Coataittee la concerned that the Chinese will eoaomplleh thle ln very short time. China haa turned off on ite ovn Independent path vith respect to many questions already. Ath anniversary in China, no prootlnent Soviete went down. The only one who wentPROKHOBOV who le the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of tho RSFSR togethere group of five inaignlficant offlclsla. At the big party the Chinese fare Inid not attend.
G, i Sinoe you mention KhBDSHCHEV, have you heard anything about hla
health lately 7 ould eay his etate of health ia not very
seed. He tires easily and his heart la not too good. Thle wae mentioned by CMURAXEV duringarty. He le being closely watched by hia dootore and controlled medically. Ho goes for vacations to restewear. They cheek hie health every day and watch bia diet end with this kind of_esre it_lsBBlbl* he will survive another ten years.
C. i Getting back to FEDEROVoment, vhen he speaks to you about
the/
the rockets ln his brigade, does ho rofer to thorn by "R" numbers or* byor In any other eoror terma ? Then ho apeaks alone tosimply refera to roeketa by the "R" numbers. BUZDfOV doea also becauBeall eloee peraonal friends. How will ho refer to them In? To VARENTSOV personally he would still apeakstrange offlcea he would apeak of index numbers orocket anI told you, at the Academy reference to J'M'Veawabere iaalthough BUZXNOVot when ho viaita with aa hestep regarding olaasified conversationerson he does not knowpresent. oticed thlaas invited to Colonel Petereputy to the Resident in India and for ot sn apartment inwent with me and ZASORIN was alaoI had trouble getting BUZINOV homo, there wore no taxiaave'In Old sksmof to the. driver of atho nextunday, at'clock waa when yourae-on-theid notamn thing and he.oalled at the wrong timeid realise the call was .from you, but ^understood nothing that thooff. He aaid something about waiting sndbeat of shape myaelfaa.notdrunkould nothing.
35. ombat operation what does the term "osnovnyyc napravlenio"hat areap ra vie nil" in the European theatre, or do they vary according to the altuatlon ? S. t heatre of military operations there may be one "osnovnoye" direction or there may be several. Thla was particularly true during World War II when our armloa were etill within the terrltoriea of the USSR. On the basis of these several baeio directions fronts wore organised, such as the First, Second, Third and Fourth Ukrainian Fronta, oto. The bo are often described as compass directions such as South East, North West or Central. Many factors are tied In to determine these direotlcna, auoh as tiar major-roi rail lines, tros meir. ememtrariser ox*
enemy /
*
enemy force*. Now the sain direction ie considered to be the BERLIN direction. It le really en operatlonal-atrategio concept, for example beginning from the main bene of the ten armies facing Peet Cerssrny, the main direction is called the BERLIN direction. In case of hoatllitiee additional directions may be designated along the flanks of the main direct ion. Theee auxiliary directions may be teax>orary or fixed depending on the course of battle. Would you consider the BERLIN direction ae the main axis of attack whloh actually extendst ward beyond BERLIN. Tea. It would be both an opera tional as welltrategic direction and BERLIN will ln effect be an Intermediate point, not the ultimate object ire and the direction will extend ell the way to the Channel.
36. Do you know of any practical results of the Voyennaya Myal articles, that le eotione that have been taken following their having been raeomrended in the sbornlk ? Of course, when theae articles get to the Army ccexaandera or even lower theee ere fundamental ooneepte en the basis of which troopa ere trained. But youot of disagreemente-for example ROTfcuTSTROV says thia end ZHADOV eaya that and then there are oiiticlaoa. B* I Theae discussions must be consideredtep forward. First let ue take the Pield Service regulations Hare the general prlnolplea sra laid down for various forma of oombat under various conditions. In addition under conditions where weapona of mass destruction are deployed, new circumstances must be considered. However, there le no article in the sbornlk which contradicts the Field Servioe Regulations. The articles represent the development of narrow or rigid concepts ea expressed In the Field Servioe Regulationa Into much broader ooneepte since the ocurse of battle may find circumstancespeolal nature not possible to cover fully ln the Field Servioe Regulations. Therefore these artioles serve the Coexaandera ae supplementary material to aaelet them in their traininghe Contender who gate theee article* will take the appropriate reference to hie own specific training programme and on the baale of thle information will write up hie own lectures end Instructions for troop training. Hla
subordinates /
aubordlnates not mn know that he haa used the smterial ln tha artlclee In the lnit root Ions which cone fron hia and eesuse that lt reia own thinking, especially since they nay not hava access to these articles. The articles ars an expansion of the principles in the Field Service Regulations whioh take into aoaount specific conditions. Therefore the articlea suet be oonsldered as one of the fundanental and up to date supplerontory guides for all the armed forces in the USSR. New articles continuously bring up to date the inoluaion of new types of weapons and their military application. It is not possible toew sat of Field Service Regulations every year. Even when discussions froa variousare brought together and summarised tho best points mads in each viewpoint are summarisedcexoon course of action is recomended whichtep forward.
- Tatarticle in the ebornlk; he mentionsRaketa (cruise-type) under Navel control along the coasts,defence. Do you know of such missilehat missiles do
they have and oould it be that Naval officers at Daershlnekly are training for theae unlta ? ave oertainly heard of theae. The Krylatka was
ts>
taken from submarines and developed and improved for use with Ground Forces.
The Krylatka ia also used in ooastal defence and theae unite are under ths Jurisdiction of the Favy. Ia thla the improved ow called tho S. l That ia correct and the Naval officers do go to the
Daerthinakly Aoademy to etudy theae missiles.
Have either Sergei Sergeievich or BUZINOV over mentionedare working oloeely with Naval, Air Foroe or PVO officers ontesting or troop problems ? S. i Tea, they aaid ao and theytogether beoause all of these have the aame basic equipment. Theis that tbe missions designated for the rockets will suitconcerned. At the Supreme kill tary Council at whiohall representstlvea of the various oombat arms are preaent.
t
When Sergei Sergeievlch epoko of failures ln the strategic
programme, exaotly what did he mean by failures 7 S. i He meant that there waa Insufficient trained personnel and that the electronic equipment waa not fully developed. Tou did mention thishought there might here been still another kind of failure he may bars referred to.
Sputniks are launched and strata gio mire tested at a
place one thousand kilometres east of KAPU3TIN TaR.J Have you aver heard Sergei Sergeievioh or BUZINOV mention the existence of this polygon, whioh fires into the Paelfio 7 poko to you about this,ould not give you ita oo-ordlnated positionould not find thla out. There Isolygon and lt Is referred to aa ths ons in Central Asia. There is even an impact area there to which they fire from XAPUSTIN Tap., G] And
do they fire into tbe Pacific from thle base too 7 Bel they do.
i-.i In the_NEDELIH aeoldent. what, we re the oxaot words used by the
engineer to tell you that the first stags of the nd sails was propelled by nuclear energy 7 The way this was written up waa that this rockot has been filledow typo of fuel, using fissionable material in its propulsion mechanism. Could it be said that this was nuclear assisted, boosted as it were 7 He aald that ltwo-stage rooket end that the first stage when activated did not work properly and following the specific time interval which had alapaed without the rocket having left the launching pad and at which point no further movement should have taken place, all safety valves should have automatically closed. At that time NEDELTN and his party all came out of their safety shelters snd suddenly the second stage ignited and exploded. Is it possible that the second stage could have been atomic energy powered, or possibly both of the stages 7 No. Only one stage was so powered snd lt was the first stage. Both stages have fuel but tho first stags sss tbe one with nuclear power, but the aeoond stage Ignited.
G.i When you soy thatra tao-etage, what do you aran ? ean that Soviet science haa taken tha line that roc ice ta should haveapes including tha Krylatka and In early testa there were three-stag* rocketa, but lt haa been decided that two-atage rooketa ara sufficient to accomplish the desired talaslon and they are eaaler to guide than three-stage rocketa.
G*1 "hj aren't there any ebornik articles on stratagio Articles on strategic missiles are piecedpealal exclusive Top Secret Bulletin by aDS&ALENKO and hie offlcera. Of course they aleo gat tha ebornik themselves, but they do not write articles to place "in theave not yet seen the third issue of the ebornik, but thusave seen no article* on atrsteglo mlaalle*. that would the reason for thle It le Just an additional Top Secret security precaution and eome of the recipients of the ebornik would not be concerned with etrategio missiles. It would be none of their business.
C.i Have there been missile exercises In the Caucasus this Tou mean ln whloh rocketa were used? Tee. S. 1 There *er* ouch exerelsee tbi* year and VARENTSOV waa there, (Ji^-y Do you know howissile oan be held after lt la fuelled before it must be launched 7 S, 1 nderstand end every rocket haa ita own particular maximum tire limit. They haveype of interior coating for the fuel chamfcere effuftnhe fuel to be ralainec In the rocket forlonger period of tine, butertain extent no matter how you try to bottle up the liquid fuel lt amnagea to leak end vapourlse to eome extent. Thle will vary for every type of rocket.
0.1 Are thend JR7 being developed further 7 Tea, they are constantly trying to perfect them. Ara their mounts Of eouree they are. old you thst they were mounted on the chassis of the amphibious tank However, it le not roooromended that theyiver crossing while the rooket ia mounted on tha ohaaele. The rocket ahould
be/
be taken screes by otherwhile the tank chassis orossee itself.
Ho wehere hare been manoeuvres in which theee carriersater
barrier carrying one rocket.
Can the atomlo cannon also have conventional ahella ae veil ae
nuolear 7 Tea it oan and why ahouldn't it, since the barrel ie rifled 7
It cen fire either type of shell, C. i And are such cannons in the GSFG
already 7 Tea, they are. Bare is tbe lastion. that vould be the true unit
designation of PEDEROV's brigade 7 Could it be calledrefix number,
, and then TBA brigade 7 That sounds very such like it. Zt
oould be called that. atter of faot since itecret designation
he did mention it to ne onceouldn't quite remember lt,o have
hie solitary unit FPO number,ave Theae are all the questions vhloh we ere going to take up today.
Te have sore and we are going to work ln still more for the next meetings.
8.1 m ready to keep working. Don't worry, we have the photographs
for you to identify yet.
(J, shewedhoto album of Soviet perscnalitisa ln
PARIS froa. Embassy and subjeot had the following remarks to aake
about the persona be spotted ae follows:-)
5 This woman le from the Embassy and ahe worked at the
Exhibition. o not knov what she does but she aald that she has been here for four years already end that she wants to go home. as Hated as Avisnatta ANICTKO). She vas working at the TNTOURIST" atand and knows Prench veil. She end her husband,id not. see, will go honeear. (He ia lieted as Mikhail AiaSENKD).
19 HereRU offioer, W* have run across hie photo
before. He was alao at tha operational meetingo not remember hia nare, (No.isted as Alekaey CHEREITOCHXTN).
/
j"
21 Please look up hla nan*-. ava aasn his. Ci It la
Vladimir DACHKEVICH. It should hs DASHKEVICH. BsCB officer. av* seen him In the KGB offloes.
52 Bar* is CBIOC*IYEV and hi* -Ifa. old rou that ah* had
been an Instructor at the MCA and *a* older than he.ed aa Valentin and Maria GRICORTTEV).
35 Thia officer ia not here in PARIS now. He haa just become
a Colonel and he la in the Air Force. HeRU offioer mho had been tho CVF repreaentative here (Civil Aviation) and now ha work* under RCGOVo and ia with the CVF in MOSCOW. (No.ot listed, probably because no longer in PARIS).
37 RU officer. ahat doe* he do 7 Heodo
olerk or something like that, possibly with the rank of Captain. He had been here in PARIS before. (Ho,ot listed, probably for the same reason as
57 For some reason this number is crossed out, but ho iaout)
thlaolonel KUDRIAVTSSV, Ivan Pavlovich. (No.ated
mt
a* Anatoli KULA2HEHK0V, wherea* for No.* listed Vladimir Petrovioh KUTKXAVTSEV, who is th* other KliDRYAVTSFTV alao in PARIS. Therefor* the No.rossed outbviouslyifferent number, which i* not listed).
56 ThisCB offioer (the correoted number would refer to
the listing).
No. 63 RU offioer. (Listed aa Mil LG-SJl). We aaw him before,
Ho. 62 ThisRU officer who was at the operational msatlng
and we saw his faoehat laight. (Listed as Alekaei LEBEDEV).
66 Thisow rankingRU oodo olerk (No.ot
Hated).
93 Here la the Chief Book-keeper of th* Embassy. old you_
about him before. (Listed as Uikhail PETROV).
9
r
Ho. 90 ru officer. on't know why tha number ia etruck
out, (Ho.ot Ho. 69 HartRU officer who la no* ln PARIS. (Llatad as
Borle PAKOV).
129 RU offloer. This la SvESLOV. ight
(liatad aa nadlodx% That la hla name, 'g.i SVTSTSLHIXCV. . Ha ia a
KGB awn but in the peat he worked for GRU, then he wont to
the neighbour*. There ere many officers like that.
(Lieted aa Parale graduated from our
Aeademy.
ere la tha Amtuui*ador. That la right. (Listed ae
Sergei VTNCGRADOV).
157 Her*umber crossed out. He ie our GRU officer. He
le not in PARIS now. It looke mia-apelled hero, it le epelled ZAIRE. It should be either ZAIXA or ZAIKXK. (Lieted as Vladimir
RU officer. (Not Hated).
HereGB officer. He le now here. He must be an
Armenian. That le the one. (Lieted aa Nlklta ENFANDailANTS) .
181 Here la the Berident, Isn't that right. Tee.
(Lieted as Ivan CJEREDEYEV).
182 BoreGB offloer; on't know his name. (Lieted
igor ly CHOPGREY).
i8!f HereRU offloer. Hia name ia VOLKOV; he le not
here now. (Lieted as Gennadly VCLKOV).
222 Here la ZEMLTANSKTY, aboutold you earlier. A
1 GRU officer (Lieted as TevgenlyCiven
above as Lt. Col. Vladimir Ivanovich ZEKLYANSKTZ, Aviation Officer, now GVPRU officer).
74* acket of loose photographs was shown to subject and amongst theae he Identified one GRU officer, whose name la TEVLAMPIYEV.
Thia finished the photography and subject was asked if he had epotted
where the code rooma were in the Embassy. All the coding Is done in that V
second floor wingold you about. where do the code clerks ait 7
S.I They have theirn thereaven't seen the roams
I see them running around there. Can you Identify them by face ?
8.1 now them by face. Doea the KGB have their own eode room
and the GRU their own 7 Tea, of oourse they have their own, each one.
Ci How about. code room 7 They have their own alao, but
don't know where it ie, possibly lt ia in an extenaion of thia second.;.
because everything there ia ao thoroughly equipped for security.
Tou ahould prepare ny mission aaaignmentaeave and
review the old onea. we havo done moat of thia already and you may be
euro that you willhorough review of thia before you leave. I
thinkill be able to got hold of thia four section manual to photograph
during the time of my vacation, because,oldill spend half
it in KISLOVODSK and tha other half in MOSCOW. -H. i How can you get hold of
it. an do from BUZINOV, He will get them for himself and
for them. on't even go to the Academy. ill tell himeed them
to write articles. FILIPPOVICH could even let me read thement to him
at the Academy. annot go to their aoorot aootion and ask for it aa 1
in GRU. Inould sign for it,annot do so at the Academy since
I am not registered there. Just like the case of tbe artillery Journals.
I aaked BUZINOV to get them for meeeded to otudy up on the material
for some workm doing,
i
77* Theae ranuala are fairly largeo have fortyeft and that should be good for0 frames. This ahould last me for about three months. Janet's husbande-supply. Vhen wYNNS aomea of course he brings me bulky things, but cannot Janet handacket
of/
of cigarettes ? H. | Tee. She oen do thle. Thle sol vae the matter. My oaaeettee ere ln good shape and both of my Min cor operate well. se them both alternately. lmost alwayslnox ln my pocket which la buttoned,on't alwaya take spare oaaeettee, but the camera le loaded. There are certain targeta of opportunityen take thia way, for example the background data on KLCCHXO. ctually work on bow thing or other every day,on'trite up eome terse notes at homo.
i How do you stand with having completed tbe personalplanned to make ? ek thle because lt le going to be rough toall on WYNNE at the last minute If you etillarge numberto get. Don'till do all thle myself. umber of thingeave visited all the placesanI etill leok. now where they are. WYNNE might take me tolt le not too far. aven't been there yet. Neithereen
de GAULLE's palace. That le pretty far away, but Versailles is ave seen moot of the sueoureeon't know how things will work out with this Frenchill eee tomoiro*. Maybe she will get some contacts for me endan go sightseeing ln PARIS with her on Sunday.
natter of passing brochures by subject to bis Embassyand he waa advised that lt vould be better to wait until behie trip with the delegation end possibly then receivefrom HOOK before he took enything to the Embassy). Inall you need to do ie to report to the Embassy that youan tact and certain thinge have been promised tovhen you get them you will bring them In.
80. .Regarding an aoquaintanco who subject oould Introduce to SOLOVYEV, subject wu advised that the only way thia aould bs dona in afashion would be to neet the French people at the factory which subject and SOLOVYEV together would visit on the itinerary set up by HOOK. But anyone else would he insecure. Subjeot agreed to this. Subjeot again enquired if hia information one-deployed French planes was correct, but he was told that we had not yet found out, hut waa advised that if the information proved to be incorrect, lt aould not necessarily reflect on ZASOPUJ's reliability as subject's source, but the Information oould have been incorrect aa reported by the French Communist source.
Subject now brought up hia plea forranslationeatern military article whioh he oould legend as having prepared himself and inuswjaryook which he would offer for consideration if sufficiently of interest to tho Soviet agency eonoemed for complete translation snd publication and Tor which subject wouldhort prefaoe In his own way, guided by the summary prepared try us. He waseaent issueery technical book on rockets and he saw how difficult it would be to understand, let alone translateook. After such discussion and repetition, subjeot stated that ifear's time we could arrange to have both these requests fulfilled. It would solve hla problem. He was told that we would do tha beat we oould to accomplish thla.
Subject left the safe apartmentoura and waa delivered to the opposite aide of the footbridge atithout Inaident by Roger and J. Beonger route hcne; thia maa mors secure against chance observation by other Soviets.
i
Original document.
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