TAPE NO 4 - FRIDAY AFTERNOON - 9 NOVEMBER 1962

Created: 11/9/1962

OCR scan of the original document, errors are possible

S: eliere that silver hair, D, vent out and brought Inoons. The men vere unbared in, they vere broughtoint on the left band vail about five feet from theesk. They stood vith their hands at their sides, rather relaxed position of atentlon and Introduced themselves once again by their last names vith the mas prefix orny.hdanln to it. A, the English speaking Russian, had Informed them that the AKT had been drawn up and thatasking than if they vere prepared to sign lt. They assentedhen began to read the akt- He read it very quickly and read lt to thea not to me. The main elements of tbe akt vere the folloviiig: ad bean apprehendedov by citizens such and such at the address, giving the Otoccar?hentiyvay uanber at euch andime and had been caught with materialshink they called it razve^yAvatee-ps^sjjjtsBsntt a

H: Which means?

S: Of an intelligence nature on my person. To the beat ofay kncv^edge, they said on my person, although they bad been found on_ the floor, that these materiala, materialsad removed TJQQ: frcta behind the radiator In this country.

H: Hov on this are you pht1ii absolutely sure S, from behind the radiator?

8: as vaitlng for thisad heard radiator mentioned

previouslya be vaa draving up tbe AKT. aa listening for

t hia to see if they vere going toact vhlch they could not

possibly have kuovn. In other words, this ves theanted to get.

It seemed to me that this vas the key to the vhole thing. Vould thay ihthia AKT

act/impahts vhlch they could not have knovn unless it bad been (discovered?). It vaa In there. They then vent on to apecify

that theee four citizens had taken me into custody and

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ad been questioned^ It vaaong document

r^T

since it had been handwritten, tbe pages apparently^had been vritten

very closely and it took himinutealf to read lt off.

I do not recall anything elese in it that vas ..

H: Do you recall the precise time, XBOQUy that they said you vere

apprehended?

8: Let me see. on't. It vas5

APPROVED FOR RELEASEimm bs

I: By your reckoning?

S: uess lt va*7an't nana remembertbey specified. Baringn Ruebe Ukrainian (lnto A,nglish speakingvho vaa standing up as beAST to tbe Russian goons, translate this Into BngUfi orase nova aay hare said don't you think you ought to translateEnglish. aid tbat vill be unnecessary. Beahaxx veil. Andhink, he looked at ne and hedo. aov he either looked at ne and aald either Idon't thinktranslation vill he necessary or be aaked as do you vasttranslation. an't recall exactly the way ha put/. aid toave no Intention of signing this ACTtranslate It Into nwgMah xaxn or not. And then ZI alsosay at thia tinsare never In my life seen the naterialabare there pb the datf. hought tbat Just for tbe hooks Zthis. He just shrugged hia shoulders and aotloned to thetitans without further word about asking then If they had anyadditions to make. The four citizen* signed tbe ACT- He thee, Isat down with tba AKT and wrote out several lines. elieve thesenotations to th* effectad refused to sign. tbe four citizens then case uplev this. He then left

tbe AKT on tbe table, tbe four citixena left,he editor also left without baringord, without having signed^tbe AKT, just nothing.

Be leftever saw hla again. JOOqXthon/sat down. hink hy this

time it mas must hare been almost five o'clock and E, tbe individual

Z believe Is Identifiable with the fifth goon, tbe nan with tbe glasses.

It occurred to me for the firsthink Just about at this point,

without his glasses that thle aanary distinct leaeablance/to the fifth goon/who an

bad been veering glasaea and appeared to directpprehenslon. Just

at this point it Jmm% hit ne. adn't even been thinking about thla

or even, or even for some reason, tried to Identify any of these men

in room with tbe fifth aan. Znad almost forgotten about bin.

Zt vas Just st this point that It hit as alludden tbat this aan -

his face clicked andhought clnost as suddenly be looks just

like tbe aan even tbo be fee wearing glasaea vho appeared to he directing It.

This aan hadn't aaid anything up to this point. Just after tbe goons

left tbo he vaa standing slightly sac to my leftast In

front of me. He Just stood there, etering at ae. por the first

ecided to meet oae of their etares. ust looked up et him

eitbout smiling er enyfckxsg emotion on my face mod Juet ztacte stared hia

dovn. Iguees it muct have lasted about tvo minutesust decided

thst if he vented to look atae going to look at htmas going

to sake him lover his eyes first and he did after about tvouess.

YOuretty good starer.

B: ust did. on't knovid itelt like laughing.

In

x Just decided at this point that/any vay ould do it vlthout talkingould try toittle bit of Initiative. Then, be _lgpkedjit me and said, veil, you dirty career is finished^ hink hejjgraxniyi^caj7eaako^ Then D, vho ves sitting in tbe same

seat and tbe seme sofa to the left of the smell tableho bed aleoeat on tbe right hand side of tba table proceeded to eay, yep, career is finished, his dirty vork is finished. ittle laughter ensued end taey ax one oforget vhlch one it vaa said something to the effectould nov takelean profession, chestiye Mxt* pTTvr^niiijflYv ay, this dialogue ensued vhlch lastedinuteinutealf. This ves the essential substance of it, that my dirty career vas finished andould nov take a$lean profession,ust bad no future. Then, they resumed this carniral ebout my oeme again. Tea. Then B, got up from hia chair snd once again aald nov vhy won't you teU us tout name. not Ve need this, ve vant to put it io the AKT and/ in order

I E

Embassy. Meanvbile, X, tbe goon bad tsken G, the Ukrainian's aid B, the Ukrainian had gotten up from thehair to the right of the table and came' over tovaxdseliere,diplomatic card in his band, but maybe not and E, th goon hadseat and be ceme up to me and asked me vhat is your name. Ieaid eometbing like ald -axpoawygfcya and

I repeatedant only to speak only vith the American Embassy and then he said vhat axe yound vhy are you afraid to give us your name. At this little cue, E, tbe goon vho vaa sitting in the chair started mumbling praatrpruat profit coward coward cover!.

tbe vord covard nothing else,ery lev but

voiceimes. ust looked up at B, tbe Ukrainian

shrugged my shoulders and stillaxxx puzzled expression on my face'and looked over

at A. ooked at me and he said give us your first name. Then he

not uo-

and cane around and stood In front of nehuess beup from behind his desk. Just eat becko mayba becan't remeber exaotly. nov before this otherastook place be asset (stood??t) in front of ae,eet avereeated the Soviet Union. Be used the vord hate. Soviet Union and the Russian people, that they couldn't harene any cause for such behavior end that you Americans arestand for peace and liberty and freedom, yet you behave in suchand you engage In such dirty activities. hink at thiaused gryaanoye iljsitssseetT? The substance of it vast 1.

vhyate thehink he used Soviet Governmentm not sure vhether be used tbe term Soviet or Russian people. ust hate them to engage ln such dirty activities. epeated againented to speak to tbe American Embassy. They then launched. Into another diatribe about the factounded liket evtomat andhould cooperate vith them to this extent to give them my name. They then ax asked mee thenhe Kngllah speaking Russian then again produced my curd and again aaked me If the date at the bottom of this card corresponded to may entry Into tbe Soviet Union or vhether thia ves simply the secondad been issued. Vas thishe date given on my card later than the actual time of my arrival in the Soviet Union. imply repeated againented to epeak vith the American Embassy. D, tbe silvery-haired man, and P,ne ia ther T, E

6: The goon had put very fev questions to me and eaid very little throughout this period. hink, ifes actuallybserving more than D. hink he really, of everyone vho took part in the interrogation seemed to be the sharpest, although thisubjective impression, because certainly tbe questions be put to me vere very fevan't really say that bedemonstrated any more technique or persistence than any of tha others. Xf anything less maxx persistence and ao fev questionsouldn't really analyze hie technique. o recallhink, that they didev questions to me but they vere essentially para phrases of these questions vhlch B, the Ukrainian bad put to me and that A, the English speaking one had put to me in English. By thiaf course, feeling pretty confident, because not onlyot given thea anything vhatsoaavever so far, but also X

thoir question* had not gotten on toonsider to be tbe only important

ould divulge; namely, either any operational information

about the specific operation vhich vas the most Important; and second

of all, any information as to the organizationepresented, hy

past intelligence activities there in Moscow and previously; and three,

tbey had asked me no questions about tbe Embassy, for Instance, personal

I

data about people orked with, vhoork vith, who were my coworkers, vho vaa my chief In tbeeantate Department Chief. Vho else Is engaged ln this sort of activity Inside tbe Embassy. Bone of these questions bad been aaked. Zt seemed to me at this point, unless tbey were intending tohour af flair of this,nev tbsy couldn't, tbat these questions vers not going to be aaked. Zt also seeaed to anx me, since Sane thoir own attitude toward me hadn't changed in theours, in other words they hadn't gotten nor* hostils, tbeyotten more forceful. Tbey didn't even seem to be more persistent,hought, passed tbe exists. na Just at thi* point concentrating on trying to repeat vhat hadoring phrase to ne and oertainly to thsm, ant to speak vith the American Embassy. Place me In contact with the American Embassy. Just to try to keep In tbat channel and not get out of it. Thia vaa'clock. Tbe Foreign Ministry gsyrssi representative didn't come ln until5an't remember what kmnaan happened in tbe nextinutes. now tbat essentially lt did not depart from the previous questionsare already told you sbout. JEhey were still asking meashink once, had any children, vnat my first name: uestion not recorded on tbe tape.

S: Xes at on* point the A, the English-speaking Russian, after be bad aaked me this question aald, vnat is lt Robert? This vashat be aaked ne. Be aaid, Vhat is your name, Robert? idn't answer. Oh yes yea yes. This vas very ioportant too. Then, theye aaked mead gotten there to Pushkin Street. B, tbe tkralnlan, aaked me, Bbv did you get to Pushkin Street? ooked at blmuxrled expression, shrugged myand then bs vent through this motion, you know, vith handsalk. alk orarefused to answer and then E, tbe goon, aaid to me that ny friends vere cruising around tbe block in the Embassy car and bs gaveicense cumber.

N: Vhlch was7

S: Bo, no. Heedited. that le ell. That la I. eo Identify

ladimir snkheylovich thia for yon in ay report. ^

1: Bow about thle one?

8:I'm glad you came up with one eo soon. on't think eo, V: The sane one. BODE Thst ised then together. Bven in color. 8: Yeu eee the thing is vltb this anile itf and slightly lOEXXMXKXK side view, KJC it la bard because when be was ln there, in nyention the diagram of thia room and also the diagram of the relative poaitioos that theae men bad In the room et any given tlae during the interrogation, they all pretty auoh had their ovn stations. Tha men sitting next to theouldn't reallyide view of hla at all. Be certainly wasn't BBJllaBj during thia thing. That ie hia. Bi Bo question.

81 In feet B, it looks like tbe same tie.

B: Let me catch hla name for the benefit of theOMAROVor' Mr. E. According to your best recollections. (OMaaacoaincrniry

spell out tba number on the beck. Could you turn them face down they may be in order of some sorjfc.

8: Tou maym going through theae fast,are these faces in my mind so..

B: That la all right. Are there eny that you think that you might like to look at again. Tou might Just throw them aside. (Thia isa going through.)

81 Bare la sXMAROY again. m pretty aure that thisaJ

ia not the men but he lookshen he vas aboutrears old.

This le the general facial structure of D. That vas tbe man vith tbe hair.

sUverZ Similar, butay different enoughsm pretty sure

B: Thathose name le Iran HJCBBV. (Please note there are tvo numbere on7 We are curious ebout Mr. A. Aren't

8: That guy_spoke_Znglisb well enoughm pretty sure that be has_

been outside. If that guy isn't in any of theae I'll look through every photo ve have.

B: Thia laVa) that you are going to look through now.

Si Tolaou bar* the number harehis nan, his picture vlll giveaint idea of hie facial structure (A's) and Us head shape. Hovsver, this aan hereairly prognathous javid not have. Hoverer, thla Isad resemblanceglTmthe feet that it taears, hih hair vould be about tha sametoo. I: He vas never referred to by name?

81 Soar of these men

mt This guy's name Is Aadrey GRAUR. (fi^r^

81 on't vant to take any chances, . Hs any be, smgloOy

unlikely hut aay be Ideiitlfiable The interrogator vbo spoke

Russianlight Ukrainian accent. Highly unlikely. If It Is,

he Is atears younger ln that picture.

s 8MZRH0V, andreyjj^'^ ^

8: This fallow. This fellow even more likely is identifiable

with B, altbo once again with the reaerration that the picture ia at least younger

r I? years/than he Is nov. 8: His name, QUBBV, Audrey a. 8: ore of Group: Hov group 3. (T's)

8: This man here, possibly identifiable vith B, the man

vith tbe Ukrainian 0- hi* bead ia just little hit too square and bis

feature* not quite sharp enough. on't think he Is, but just possibly.

I: I've got number, hi* name Boris KUolayevich BABXCHLBKD. * t

8: , his face Is very similar to a- ii** baldingbe side

and ln the back his hair vaa very well groomed, combed very closely to

which thia man's Xtfta isn't, acalp/ butew year* differenceittle bit of wild Root, Just

possibly. Tb* faceery very close.

8: ish tbey vould date these picture* so ve vould knov. 81 It vouldig help

I: They aay have the Info. s Iran A. BA1ASH07.

8: Oh boy. This look*ight here. Itomplete pa picture of hia. . Thia look* like blm. That is as closeould hope to get to him. Tbe amock picture isn'tood enough qualityoulda definitely say,ould aay that. Vhat is his nsmeT Ij * Daitriy Mtkhaylorich KDNYAJOilN.

8: The nose, the jaw, the hair (the high cheek boneTtfttt) vary very.

B: 'j. trong reaeablencs to A.on't think so.

. FAHU2BV.

B: That vas group 3* This ii group k. 6: 9 Son* slight rseemblenca to A.Ukolay Hikhaylovich BELOOSOV. ?

S: acially may perhaps bear some reseahl saos to D, but once

again vith the qualification that this picture looks aboutears

younger. on't think lt la tbo aaae person.

B: Vladimir Andreyerlch XVASEKXH.

B: TT* the second half of aaae series of group h,

8: hink ve alreadyn this other picture, but this nan alsosnot numbered) N: , nov vhat did you say?

Si Beesemblancebe Ukrainian,hink tbe other picture ia .. hia onet. B: Alekssy B. CH3ZBOT;..

I: Ve bare one more hatch to go thru. The last group vas taken at tbe Povers trial. on't think those group photos help anym not sure ve knov vho they sre. S: Ho, but at least if ve had the face.

8: Thla felloe here,ithout glasaea, be bears some reaemblsace to D, the aan with the silvery hair, without glasses. B: Bo.he man In the middle wearing glasaea.

Si Facial structure, else ofair very very similar, except that

that aanit older (one In picture). Be looks older than appeared

to me. file hair doesn't appear to be aa veil groomed or aa silver. D. resemblance very great. B: That'a D.

8: These people on theae pictures really do look like the types.

Once again this fellow here, altho it isary good picture beara

seme resemblance to B, the Ukrainian.

B: To B. Tbe one seated

S: Exactly. Below the. inaudible.

8; Ho.an seated on left bearato B.

8i right.

S: Bo one hare. ould like to look at all of these again. ould like to go thru all the photos inlc. nov their faces veil

.

B: Tbat you'll catch then.

8: Yoa. They vere all In general different type* and of oourme having

and they villi be foi

been there forhoura my Impressions are still clear and fresh/ Tor long time. Instance KOMAROV. ooked at tbat guy In tbe photoan still see him staring at me there at ths other end of tbe aamtkx desk. Zt vere just sa If he vere back hare. That one of B, evenad photo. Zt Just looked so much like him. ure.

K: These could be nev characters that have an never been out and ve don't have photos. n glad you made the one absolutely positive on KOMAROV and thst

8i And the only reasonon't say loo* on hla la because the photo le keaax bad. Zf lt weren't forould aayut there Is not much doubt la ay mind. Evenfee isn't youlue there. 8: Tou didn't hare any problems with reporters?

8: idn't because fortunately they vere sent the wrong flight number In Paris. They just reversed tbe number*. They didn't know vhlchas coming In on. assed them up, eltbo not Intentionally, by taking an earlier flight out of Paris. TyjTTTrgXfiTiltIZBYtmpn Bi Isn't that saxlierresidential flight? St They didn't aay.

B: Veil, ens It first olass all tbe vay?

S: Bo. Tourist. There vere very few people in first class, but tourist va* pecked. ot to Orly0 Paris and va* expecting not to leaveent right to tbe FanAm desk to confirm myid, th* man looked lt up snd said velight leaving at one

if you prefer that. elt tbat leaving at one, three, earlier, that

b

aould get me ln Hew Tork at threeould be down here before closing

time in th* Office. But than thla nix up occurred with ay bags, but

CihU

apparently UBOL accordinglag over at State, therePI man

waiting at Hew Tork, for tbeaa supposed to take. This is

vhat generated all the difficulty vith tbe passport section et the

Department because apparently thia fellow contacted tbeeople

snd got my passport number and Inquired about thi* and then they

determined that this wasn't my right passport number. They thought

son*thing waa xrrxg wrong vith my passport.

H: Tou certainly didn't travel under alia* any place along the route? S: Bb.

I: Outhries called ne and accused ne of Instructing tou to travel under alias.

6: lo. Tee reason vny tbey couldn't get me In Parle Is because tbe Department bad cabled tbe vrong Information or least Helsinki had cabled the vrong Info to Paris. Let ne put it this vey, if it wasn't the vrong Info, the code olerk at either end of tba lineistake. Insteadbey. Transposed tbe nunbers. ust very naturally took tbe first flight out ofould get. ad nothing to do at Onlyours. As things turned out, this wasn't in my mind atas prepared to say just no comment, just see Moscow for any info. as gladealised that this bad screwed them up because at least It prevented another picture getting into the paper getting off the plane in Pmrli or more probably ln Hew Tork. They possibly might hare printed it again. They have printed enough already. ns met at Helsinki by

some Finnish newspapermen and they took feme pictures of ne getting off the plane and also of nehe lending strip. Tbey asked mead any statement to make. ald no. m had no eoavaent tond

they could refer all que et ions to our Embassy in Moscow. Tbeyme. Then they aaked me for some personal information whichelse had

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